But then they arent biased in any way. How is Ballyvourney these days?Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie
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But then they arent biased in any way. How is Ballyvourney these days?Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie
The de facto policy of successive governments since the foundation of this state to force Irish-speaking people to communicate with officialdom through English a failure on their part, as much as it would be a failure to expect Mr. GavinZac to communicate with them through Irish whether you could understand it comfortably or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
I am afraid that this, buddy, shows you up as being massively ignorant of the legislation in question. You feign to invoke the law ("officially, legally, whatever, we are supposedly both irish speaking (*cough*) and english speaking") to claim that rights are being trodden upon. I suggest that you read the relevant ("officially, legally, whatever") legislation, i.e. the Official Languages Act 2003 (part 5). It'll be well worth your while as there are things in there and in the Act as a whole that will make you sick to your stomach; you'll love it. Cough.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Furthermore, the English name of Ballyvourney has not been removed; certainly, councillors -- no matter where their heads were -- wouldn't be at the bottom of it even if it was. I suggest you research this topic a little more, the better to make your accusations. There is something to what you're blustering about but you display a complete lack of the basic facts other than it appears to involve Irish versus English, which seems to be enough for you.
That is preposterous. We discard the teaching of one of the two official languages of the state in favour of what? "A useful second language that will enable them to converse fluently in a situation beneficial to themselves such as travelling or working abroad"? How shall we decide which language we pick and with which country we fabricate this bizarre link for all of Ireland's schoolchildren? French? What about those who think they want their 3-10 year olds to grow up to live and work in Spanish-speaking countries? Or do you envision armies of primary-school language teachers and language labs in every prefab primary in the country, one for each language of the EU?Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
And if it is your contention that it is Irish taking up space on the curriculum that somehow prevents students studying the languages they want, then I'd like to see you back it up. Personally I think it's affecting P.E. And Civics.
I admit that I am, and I must have you extremely wrong because it's ear-to-ear sneer from here.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
And you are equally fearful of admitting any link at all between the two lest language look anything more than naked and utilitarian! I am open to the suggestion that the truth is somewhere in between; in fact I am sure of it. I have never heard such a complete denial of any link between language and culture before, ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
"Just stop punching above your weight"? That strikes me as the instruction of a sneering snob.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
What are these demands "we" are making? When did we make them? Who did we demand them of? How is Joe these days?
Oh, and disparaging comparisons to trades unions? I see.
I'm glad to see you disagreed with the,in my mind, rubbish you implied earlier in the discussion. It now appears that your main gripe is that it is a waste of time in schools, shouldnt be obligatory and therefore it's status should be demoted in our Constitution;Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
How much extra maths do you learn after the basics? How much French can the average student speak, do they think its a great language? If a subject isn't being learned properly then we should look at the syllabus etc first and not the subject itself. In school there is a general air of disenchantment with every subject. For the students with problems do they think, from the age of 6, the language is so useless they slip into a state of inertia, or is it that teaching methods contrive against them? In my view its more likely to be the latter. Should it be mandatory? Probably not for the Leaving Cert, the same as any subject. But at that stage students should have a decent grasp of the basics and can be left off into the world with an appreciation of the language.
Whatever about the language itself being a worthy constituent of your interpretation of Irish culture there is a culture based around the language that you gloss over. TG4, RnaG, Seachtain na Gaeilge, Scór maybe even Macnas are all very popular offshoots stemming from Irish, and as well as Gaeltacht areas, show that there is a culture dependent on the language.
I'm beginning to wonder about that one, it doesn't hold true in this thread anyway. I think it's a kind of 'I'm right because you're wrong' thing that only lasts for the duration of a retortQuote:
Originally Posted by ollie
To be honest, just because you can't decide which language to choose, this doesn't make choosing a language other than Irish a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz
I have no objection to Irish being left on the curriculum because of its historical and cultural significance.
To argue that it is a practical tool in our existance after leaving school is a bit fanciful I feel. I would say that a student who speaks French, or Spanish to the same schooled level as others speak Irish would find it far more useful.
Having said that, lots of stuff we learn in school had limited use after leaving school. In fact, I think the most important thing you learn in school is learning how to learn, if you follow me.
This Isn't Stupid ...........There said it:D :D :D
Well you don't have much support for your gripe in this thread anway.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
On schooling:
The few marks for Irish in the LC isn't much.its definitely not 10% of what you don't get.It depends from subject to subject and obviously if you get a high mark you'll get very little.Its not as much as an advantage as people think.
What is a bit unfair is that some people are brought up in Irish and obviously a lot more aren't and they both do the same paper but don't know what the soloution is tbh.Make it optional for the LC?i'm not too sure.Personally i wouldn't like to see that happen.1 positive step is that the oral exam is accounting for 40% of the overall exam in the near future.It will make it a little more relevenat and useful to people.
It was fine the last time i was there.Still standing.why do you ask?Quote:
How is Ballyvourney these days?
Learning other languages is of course a great idea. Picking a language in place of one of the two national languages of this state to teach in every school in the state to every schoolchild in the state from the age of entry would be a bizarre idea, especially given the (nominal) commitment of every government since 1922 to preserve and promote the Irish language.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
And of course despite Irish using sooooo much bandwidth on the curriculum, people do choose to learn other languages in school, though the take-up is pretty poor apart from French. Important-/useful-languagewise, of some 50,000 students who sat the Leaving last year roughly 27.7k sat French, 7.6k sat German, 2.2k sat Spanish, and 242 sat Italian (a higher percentage failing both of the prime candidates, the big-hitters, French and German, than Irish -- which of those languages will we teach the country from infancy?).
Some learn them very well and are inspired to go and study the language further and maybe visit the relevant country, just as there are students who learn Irish well and go off down the Gaeltacht off their own bat. Some fail in flames. Most don't give a crap either way and just want the points. This is what happens at the moment.
so its a case of "well its just always been like that. what can we do?".Quote:
Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz
:confused: Any subject takes up a fairly large chunk of "bandwidth". even simply removing the subject and allocating the time to other subjects would free up time for more topics, or give the teacher more time to address individuals. heck, that'd go some way toward solving the class size issue.Quote:
And of course despite Irish using sooooo much bandwidth on the curriculum
whats your point? :confused: people doing irish for the leaving cert have spent 14 years doing it, i would expect them to have a higher pass rate, especially since some secondary schools simply require pupils to study french or german because they only have one foreign language french or german teacher, and irish exams tend to be based on learning off vast chunks of pre-prepared "analysis" of studied texts, rather than the entirely comprehension/composition nature of foreign language exams.Quote:
people do choose to learn other languages in school, though the take-up is pretty poor apart from French.
Important-/useful-languagewise, of some 50,000 students who sat the Leaving last year roughly 27.7k sat French, 7.6k sat German, 2.2k sat Spanish, and 242 sat Italian (a higher percentage failing both of the prime candidates, the big-hitters, French and German, than Irish
can someone clarify this then? what is (with a source, please rather than "im fairly sure" as someone said) the exact bonus schema? if it was significantly less than i think it is, it'd go far to shutting me up :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ollie
out of curiousity, why? what reason is there to force irish upon students at an age where other countries are giving pupils complete choice (eg UK A Levels)Quote:
What is a bit unfair is that some people are brought up in Irish and obviously a lot more aren't and they both do the same paper but don't know what the soloution is tbh. Make it optional for the LC?i'm not too sure.Personally i wouldn't like to see that happen.
yes getting conversational irish into the curriculum more would (hopefully) improve student's irish, as sort of a mini-gaelscoil environment. not sure how that would make irish more useful, unless those students felt inspired to actually use the language after school. also, it'd be interesting to see how it affects grades - if grades take a nose dive in the first year of 40% oral, how supportive would teachers be of it?Quote:
1 positive step is that the oral exam is accounting for 40% of the overall exam in the near future.It will make it a little more relevenat and useful to people.
I just miss it. Tried to find it last time and all the signs for it were gone. fairly odd.Quote:
It was fine the last time i was there.Still standing.why do you ask?
Trouble is which language would you use other than English?
French? German? Spanish? Polish? Russian? Italian? Chineese? Japaneese?
If you choose one over another you could be accused of favouritism, some
tourists might resent it if their language was not used, owever by choosing
Irish you avoid this situation as it will be equally imcomprehensible and
unhelpful to all visitors :D
You are definitely on to something here, GavinZac. You know that you are seeing things clearly; you comprehend and appreciate a gross injustice that the ordinary people are unaware of and unexcited by. You should start a campaign of enlightenment and edumication and gather support to effect the removal of Irish from the school curriculum post haste. Free us, children and parents alike, with the power of your Truth; yea, unyoke us! End the spell — break the charm that binds so pathetically language to culture in the minds of fools and smothers up a national schooling experience which would otherwise burn golden with joyous linguistic modernity and process useful polyglot superstudents.
Your bravery is needed; you must get involved, for there seems to be dangerous apathy out there about this sick status quo. Remember: all it takes for the Irish-language lobby to triumph is for outraged casual observers of the educational system to do nothing.
Speaking of people bothering their (own) barneys: maybe the duty of finding out what exactly is the story with that damned and blasted bonus percentage for sitting examinations through Irish falls upon the person vilifying it. Kind of like the whole Official, Legal, Whatever Languages Act (2003) thing.
:eek: How did you know he was from Ballyvourney? :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
The same reason I know one of the gaelscoileanna he went to :eek: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz
charming. are you done?Quote:
Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz
as the only one to post a source, from an officially (oifiguil?) commissioned website from Foras na Gaeilge, i can safely say i won't be the one trawling through the record books of the DoE. Certainly not with that attitude, young man.Quote:
Speaking of people bothering their (own) barneys: maybe the duty of finding out what exactly is the story with that damned and blasted bonus percentage for sitting examinations through Irish falls upon the person vilifying it. Kind of like the whole Official, Legal, Whatever Languages Act (2003) thing.
also look at 'Location'Quote:
Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz
That was my point. He can no longer find Ballyvourney, apparently, because the signposts say Baile Mhúirne.Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie
now Amhlaoibh, I think there are other reasons for me to know you're from Ballyvourney than some cryptic clue on foot.ie :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz
Firstly I never said that! If i said anything of the sort it would have been that I didn't know the meaning not that it didn't have one :mad: :)Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
But anyway.
For obvious reasons I disagree with pretty much most of what GZ says but I do think there is a point to be considered in making Gaeilge an optional subject in secondary school.
I honestly don't think it would have a negative affect on the growth of the language. The majority of people I know who went to english schools leave secondary school with a very basic standard of Irish which in most cases is unused and quickly forgotten.
I think if the language was made optional, those who choose it would have the benefit of being in a class with others who have some interst in speaking the language and p[robably would end up with a better standard of Irish coming from better teaching(less teachers needed so can pick the best) and better standard within the class group.
This along with proper implementation of the new curriculum in primary school could go far in changing the attitude(like GZ's) towards irish IMO.
I'm not sure who said earlier that people send kids to a gaelscoil because of love of the language rather than to give them an advantage but in my own case this wasn't the case. My dad had irish but the reason I was sent to a gaelscoil was because my parents thought it would be an advantage and I know a lot of other parents who feel the same.
From my experience, there is very little disadvantage(other than facilities) in going to a Gaelscoil but you gain the advantage of learning another language at a young age, one that has a key role in our exam structure.
I know a lot of parents who have asked me iof they should send their kids to a Gaelscoil for the same reason and I would advise them to do so.
Of course for others it is a love of the language.
*Apologies for the length of the post
Thats a good point, and the people studying it could focus on a better class of literature than that story with the mentally challenged oaf, the abusive father figure, a canary and a tinker.Quote:
Originally Posted by micls
In all honesty though, and you're probably not the best person to ask given that you're trying to be a gaelscoil teacher, can you say that it has had any advantage to you, other than preparing you better for exams in which Irish features heavily, and your preparation to become a teacher in the same exam structure? Surely the issue then is that exam structure does not reflect the reality of what people need. For such a highly educated society, our drop out rate is astonishing, and learning irish must rank pretty highly as a contributing factor, given its difficulty and futility.Quote:
I'm not sure who said earlier that people send kids to a gaelscoil because of love of the language rather than to give them an advantage but in my own case this wasn't the case. My dad had irish but the reason I was sent to a gaelscoil was because my parents thought it would be an advantage and I know a lot of other parents who feel the same.
I know a lot of parents who have asked me iof they should send their kids to a Gaelscoil for the same reason and I would advise them to do so.
Again, thats only an advantage in terms of the exam structure. In reality, you'd probably gain more from learning Polski than Gaeilge!Quote:
From my experience, there is very little disadvantage(other than facilities) in going to a Gaelscoil but you gain the advantage of learning another language at a young age, one that has a key role in our exam structure.
Our education system should reflect the skills and attributes needed to give people a good standard of living. "Interest" subjects such as Irish and Religion should join Art and Music amongst the optional topics.
my bad.:oQuote:
Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz
True enough i suoppose.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Irish becomes subject at Cambridge University
01/05/2007 - 11:48:33
"Irish has become an official subject at Cambridge University, it was announced today.
Cambridge will tomorrow launch its first classes in modern Irish.
While the university already teaches medieval Irish, the new addition will mean that for the first time, common, modern elements of both gaelic language and literature will be on offer for students.
Acclaimed poet Dr Louis de Paor will give a celebratory reading to mark the occasion, while the the Irish Ambassador, Daithi O’Ceallaigh, will also be present.
“Ireland is going through an era of rapid cultural change, in which it is particularly easy to lose track of where one comes from,” senior lecturer in Celtic languages and literature Dr Maire Ni Mhaonaigh said.
“As we move into more of a distinctively European future, the study of Irish has the potential to be a positive aspect of identity.”
Irish was granted official European status in January, taking its place as the 23rd language of the EU.
This means that all key EU legislation must now be translated, while provisions are also in place for the language to be spoken at EU council meetings.
Recognising the significance of the Cambridge move, the Irish Government has provided funding to the university to help make the course a reality.
Tomorrow’s launch means Cambridge is the first English university to teach both modern and medieval forms of the language.
It is also the only university anywhere that allows students to study Irish in its wider context, as one of a network of ancient languages and culture that define the heritage of these islands.
The university hopes the classes will reinforce an understanding of Irish identity not just within Ireland, but among the thousands of Diaspora spread throughout the globe.
“Learning Irish need not be related to ethnicity or family background. One of the main reasons for setting up classes at Cambridge is to stress that the study of Irish is of value for anyone interested in it for whatever reason,” added Dr Ni Mhaonaigh.
Irish Government funding has enabled the university to employ a modern Irish teacher, Dr Karrina Hollo, who has already begun classes at beginner, intermediate and advanced level.
Academics are confident the subject will not only be taken up by Irish students, but also by many non-natives who have an interest in the country’s heritage and culture."
What do you think of that Gav?
I think its fantastic. University is where more obscure interest subjects should be taught to people who genuinely want to learn it either for a career or just out of interest. if we could provide the same course in an irish university, we'd be flying, because apparantly some english university can teach in 2/3 years what the irish system fails to do in 14.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
I'm glad to see you have departed from your earlier stance. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Did you actually read the text? This course teaching it as history -Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
"It is also the only university anywhere that allows students to study Irish in its wider context, as one of a network of ancient languages and culture that define the heritage of these islands."
"the first English university to teach both modern and medieval forms of the language."
But either way, by history I mean something which is interesting to a few people to look back on. That is what this course is, it is not an attempt to force every school child into learning something they have no use for. That is the context in which it is fantastic.
Of course, the worrying part of this is..
"the Irish Government has provided funding to the university to help make the course a reality"
"Irish Government funding has enabled the university to employ a modern Irish teacher, Dr Karrina Hollo"
Yet another bizarre pouring of money which could be better spent.
Possibly the most self-contradicting post ever.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
explain?Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
Exaggeration fair enough, but you asked me if I had read the text when you hadn't yourself.
"Cambridge will tomorrow launch its first classes in modern Irish.":)
Then you quoted this bit; "the first English university to teach both modern and medieval forms of the language." And start talking about history when the notable thing is the introduction of modern Irish.:confused:
People who can't hold their hands up and admit to being wrong make me feel good about myself, for that Gavin, I thank you.;)
I've had to restart this post since that javascript alert about a new private message clears the text box for some reason so I'll try to remember as best I can what I had said.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
The course is (or is at least described as) a Celtic History and Languages Studies course similar to the one we have at UCC. That the Irish government has funded them to hire a modern gaeilge (i.e., well versed in such contrived words as "telefón" or "rádio") teacher is not somehow a vindication of the teaching of the Irish language here, but rather a damning indictment of force feeding the language to kids here - that is, that my own proposition, the teaching of the irish language to those who voluntarily choose to learn it over the course of 3 or 4 years, rather than forcing it upon kids for 14 years, at either university or secondary level is being shown as a viable option EVEN with extra topics thrown in such as the theory of celtic languages and their relationships and development.
That is why its fantastic, and I'm sure your own pig headedness will get quite a buzz from me pointing this out.
My point was simply that modern Irish has been acknowledged as being important enough for a university in Cambridge to start a course. Thereby extending the opportunity to learn the language to a whole new category of people when you think it has no relevance etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Fair play to the Government for supporting an initiative to widen the promotion of Irish language and culture
They're not starting a course, they're adding a modern language to provide context to a Celtic Studies course. That they hired an Irish teacher and as such will be teaching Irish as the chosen modern celtic language is down to irish government funding (specificly, the Department of Rural Communities and The Gaeltacht, which is dominated by self-promoting money wasting "gaeilgóirs" whose neglect of that other part of the department is far more responsible for the collapse of the rural community than drink driving bans) in hiring an Irish teacher rather than Welsh, Scots Gallic or Breton.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
It was hardly the Government who went to the university.
Let us not get caught up in the semantics of course/class the fact is Irish is seen, by the people who know about these things, as a language with modern day relevance. Why would they bring in a dead language to add contemporary context? And don't say it's some conspiracy please
You think Cambridge University asked our government for funding? Would it make any difference if our government didnt chastise them for their neck but actually gave them what they wanted?Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
They wanted to teach the basics of the one the languages they've been learning the history of. They chose Irish because it was being funded. No conspiracy, just an economical decision by the college and a bizarre waste by our government.Quote:
Let us not get caught up in the semantics of course/class the fact is Irish is seen, by the people who know about these things, as a language with modern day relevance. Why would they bring in a dead language to add contemporary context? And don't say it's some conspiracy please
Just to add some input from "people who know about these things", here are the comments of one editor of Wikipedia.org on the (later revoked as vandalism) removal of Irish from the list of endangered languages.
"I'm a huge supporter (and an optimistic one, I'd like to think) of Irish, but as far as I'm aware the number of regular, fluent, and native speakers is nowhere near stabilized. It is a very endangered language. There has doubtlessly been a recent resurgence of interest, but I think most realists will tell you that Irish is going to die out within a century or so if the current situtation does not change. And by dying out, I mean that the Gaeltacht will be effectively no different than the Galltacht. Gaelgeoirí are in the minority in most Gaeltachtaí already. It's thrilling to see the slow change in attitude, manifested by phenomena like the gaelscoileanna, but more needs to be done. The situation for Irish is undeniably brighter than that of Gaelic or Breton, but it is in no way ready to be seriously removed from a list of endangered languages (I hear many would argue that neither is Welsh, but that's a different story). Rath Dé ort. Andrew 19:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)"
Maybe you know more than me but yes. I would look to which is more likely - the University deciding to expand a curriculum or the Government asking them to do so. I would say the former is more likely. If so, well done to the University for spotting the opportunity to improve their service in an area where they thought an interested benefactor was likely to help out.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Apparently a bit more than the basics; "Dr Karrina Hollo, who has already begun classes at beginner, intermediate and advanced level."Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
This is wonderful news. Hopefully the next George Thomson will be along soon enough. GT was a legend. Born in London in 1903, at the age of 20 he took a trip to the Blaskets, quickly falling in love with the language. He befriended an islander, Muiris O Suilleabháin, and immersed himself in the language for six weeks, quickly acquiring a lovely turn of phrase; Bhíodar beirt sé seachtaine i dteannta a chéile. Arsa Muiris: "Nuair a bhí an téarma sin caite, is aige a bhí an Ghaeluinn go blasta." Indeed, spotting Muiris' story-telling talent, George impelled Muiris to write the famous work Twenty Years A'Growing; Thuig Seoirse gurbh an-scéalaí é Muiris is d'áitigh air leabhar a scríobh ar shaol an Bhlascaoid. B'shin mar a tháinig Fiche Bliain ag Fás ar an saol, ****as rómánsúil ach ****as atá lom lán le gile is iontas na hóige.:)
As for that wiki thing, it would be a very sad day if Irish was no longer spoken ina gceantar dúchais. But is that not more of a societal issue than a fault with the language?
Well thats fantastic, they manage to get to advanced level irish (although i dont know what advanced irish is defined as in southern england) in 3 or 4 years. We have to literally immerse someone in irish for 14 years to get them to advanced level! See the power of making something voluntary and teaching it at a level where people really commit? Its a fantastic example, as I've said, and I'll probably end up using it in future arguments elsewhereQuote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
Its not a fault with the language. Its just a language. Is it societies fault? I wouldn't say fault, more "society is the cause". If we have no use for something, it often goes away, like car elevators (fascinating if you want to spend a few minutes with google) or dublin city fc :DQuote:
As for that wiki thing, it would be a very sad day if Irish was no longer spoken ina gceantar dúchais. But is that not more of a societal issue than a fault with the language?
Do if you wish to embarrass yourself. For one the intellectual capacity of a third level student would dwarf that of a child so that's a poor comparison. Secondly, if subjects are made voluntary then students wouldn't know what to pick, they'd pick what their friends were doing, or what teacher was the most lenient etc. Most people probably only liked one or two subjects in school, so blame the system then not the subject. As it happens I think a broad education, and not just academic, at second level is far more preferable, let people find their strengths so they can then specialise in college, and basically give them a platform from which they can sprout.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Having been educated in Irish I know I won't have any regrets later in life concerning my relationship with the language. However if I never had studied it I would be confident in saying that I would curse the system for forcing me to make a whimsical decision about a key constituent of this island's heritage at such an impressionable age. Perhaps more senior members of the forum could vouch for such a view
Nice Redknappism as well by the way, 'literally immerse' in Irish:o
I didn't say fault either. Rather the gradual depopulation of Gaeltacht areas is a societal trend, for now at least while the country is recoiling from decades of rural idyll in favour of urban anonymity and hedonism. That's why yer man said Irish is endangered, not because people have no use for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Yes, that is why they are open to learning specific, specialist topics that shouldnt be applied to everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
Thats very patronising, most secondary students pick subjects related to their career goals and certainly most university students do. By making things voluntary, you restrict them to people that actually want to learn. You progress much faster, and you raise the standard that eventually gets taught. I would have thought this would be a good way to "save" irish, giving a minority a very strong grasp of it rather than the majority a cúpla focal.Quote:
Secondly, if subjects are made voluntary then students wouldn't know what to pick, they'd pick what their friends were doing, or what teacher was the most lenient etc.
Most people probably only liked one or two subjects in school, so blame the system then not the subject. As it happens I think a broad education, and not just academic, at second level is far more preferable, let people find their strengths so they can then specialise in college, and basically give them a platform from which they can sprout.
But, to be honest, you're in the extreme minority. you were educated in the minority system where you knew no different than to know irish. who knows, you might even occasionally get a use out of it down in kerry. for every 1 person who thinks they would be "forced to make a whimsical decision" by making irish optional at some level, there would be 100s who would say "a whimsical decision was made for me" by making it compulsory.Quote:
Having been educated in Irish I know I won't have any regrets later in life concerning my relationship with the language. However if I never had studied it I would be confident in saying that I would curse the system for forcing me to make a whimsical decision about a key constituent of this island's heritage at such an impressionable age. Perhaps more senior members of the forum could vouch for such a view
That's nonsense - most people in secondary school haven't a clue what their career path is. They end up picking one language, one science and one business subject because that's what they're told is best.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Hasn't stopped you ranting off for the last ten pages with hardly a soul in agreement with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
The only people arguing with me are people that went to gaelscoils, which is pretty pointless as they are, in a way, an example of what i've been advocating, choice in learning irish.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Doesn't change the my point - no-one's in agreement with you (they'd post in your favour otherwise), yet you tell someone else they're in the minority?
If you gave schoolchildren choice as to what subjects to learn, they'd do sex ed, sport and probably not a lot else. Kids under 18 anyway should be told what to learn by and large, because they aren't mature enough to make the calls themselves, and they don't have the life experience to see what's useful or interesting later in life.
If that sounds harsh, well, it's the way it's always worked, here and in other countires, and seems to have been doing well.
how does posting on foot.ie change the reality that people that attended gaelscoils are in the minority :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
You're being ridiculous. you honestly think we should take away optional subjects from leaving cert students? :eek:Quote:
If you gave schoolchildren choice as to what subjects to learn, they'd do sex ed, sport and probably not a lot else. Kids under 18 anyway should be told what to learn by and large, because they aren't mature enough to make the calls themselves, and they don't have the life experience to see what's useful or interesting later in life.
Explain to me, there, if you wouldn't mind:Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
1. Who you think these Gaeilgeoirs are and how exactly they are meant to dominate the department. The current Secretary General is no Gaeilgeoir: he is an appointment from outside the department who started going to Irish lessons when he arrived four years ago; as it stands only one of his three assistant secretaries can speak Irish. Of the 46 officers of assistant principal officer grade or higher, only ten can speak Irish, nine of these in the Irish-language or Gaeltacht sections; more remarkable in context of their domination of the department, only 3 of the 15 principal officers speak Irish, and all of these are in the Irish-language or Gaeltacht sections.
2. How, exactly, these Gaeilgeoirs manage to magically promote themselves in disregard of civil service bureaucracy and why their ringleader (the assistant secretary with responsibility for Irish, the Gaeltacht, and Charity Law) never thought of promoting more than 3 of his minions to positions of more power in sections other than those that deal with Irish and the Gaeltacht;
3. How the actions of these 1+3 Gaeilgeoirs in administering the allocation of funds for constantly reviewed projects and schemes on the final authority of the minister of an elected government can be described as 'wasting money' any more than the legitimate actions of any other civil servants speaking any other language in any other section of any other department in the country (preferably with some reference to the relevant accounts or annual reports rather than what you yourself reckon them to be spending);
4. How the 1+3 Gaeilgeoirs are "more responsible for the collapse of the rural community than drink driving bans" :rolleyes: through their neglect of "that other part of the department" (the 12 out of 15 sections of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs under the control of the 2+12 Béarlóirí that do not deal with Irish or the Gaeltacht, in which the three Gaeilgeoir POs do not work and over which their Gaeilgeoir assistant secretary overlord has no control except the section that deals with charity law ... is it your position that the new charity regulations are killing the country way of life??);
5. How you claim so much knowledge about the inner workings and politics of a government department and yet do not know what the department is called or what its remit is.
Otherwise, please stop talking through your hat. Or stick to fact-free bloggish musings about the betterness of a purely anglophone society rather than slanderous specifics that you can actually get pulled up on. :)