Dermot Ahern's comments on an all Ireland side

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gspain

In summary yes there was definitely racist and sectarian abuse. Yes the atmosphere was intimidating. It was still a minority. It was blown totally out of proportion. It did not merit a Dail debate. Frankly I felt cheated as I came back to work on Thursday afternoon elated we'd qualified for the world cup and all everybody wanted to talk about was the atmosphere and how I got out alive.

I also attended othe rInternationals at windsor around the time. There was some sectarian chanting then too but again it was a minority. It wasn't pleasant. It wasn't right but it certainly was a minority.

Would it be different now? That's the real test. Sadly that goes both ways though. I was really really proud that NI fans could sit in the home support at Lansdowne and there wasn't a comment out of place. I'm not sure they could now.

---

The saliant point is that, a dissenting minority or not, can anyone see both sets of supporters amicably supporting the one team?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gspain

...I didn't wave a tricolour or visibly wear colours but I did celebrate our goals and Tony Cascarino's "goal" (it was further over the line than Hurst's) in 88...

---

Well I think that the game deserved a debate in parliament as much as the rantings of a fat cow on Big brother. On a slightly lighter note, I turned up at WP in 88 and was hanging around some old bill near the start of the M1. All of a sudden this big copper - looked like some sort of seargent - goes 'Oh f*cking hell.' He spots this old bloke dressed like he's just got back from Gelsenkirchen - green white and orange everywhere. The Policeman runs over and gives him a bit of an 'escort'. I'm not sure whether he got into the match, but I'd imagine his trappings of support were retained for safe keeping.

There are some right animals over here in football, but I was at Arsenal v Spurs a couple of years ago and the level of hatred that night was nowhere near Belfast on those two occasions. Arsenal v Spurs games have had its moments including a petrol bomb in the late seventies on the clock end. I told my boy that some song about Spurs last title win being the most 'offensive' on offer from Arsenal contrasts with the days when songs of an anti-semitic nature were more the norm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Well I think that the game deserved a debate in parliament as much as the rantings of a fat cow on Big brother. On a slightly lighter note, I turned up at WP in 88 and was hanging around some old bill near the start of the M1. All of a sudden this big copper - looked like some sort of seargent - goes 'Oh f*cking hell.' He spots this old bloke dressed like he's just got back from Gelsenkirchen - green white and orange everywhere. The Policeman runs over and gives him a bit of an 'escort'. I'm not sure whether he got into the match, but I'd imagine his trappings of support were retained for safe keeping.

There are some right animals over here in football, but I was at Arsenal v Spurs a couple of years ago and the level of hatred that night was nowhere near Belfast on those two occasions. Arsenal v Spurs games have had its moments including a petrol bomb in the late seventies on the clock end. I told my boy that some song about Spurs last title win being the most 'offensive' on offer from Arsenal contrasts with the days when songs of an anti-semitic nature were more the norm.

---

Football in England now is totally different from the late 80's/early 90's. The racist chanting etc is very much a thing of the past. You would get thrown out now for being in the wrong end but wouldn't get the beating/abuse that you'd have got in the past.

I should also point out that I was at the B game in Portadown in 1990, the UEFA youths qualifier at the Oval in 1999 and the U21 game in Lurgan in 2005 and could openly cheer for the RoI without any problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gspain

Those in favour of an all Irekand team might want to consider how they'd feel if a single team for these islands was proposed by an English minister.

---

why ever so???? what on earth does an english minister have to do with this??

from all the reading above david, not brazil et al claim to be British (and Irish) but nowhere English. perhaps you meant to say an MP from NI - and one with a british identity. and for the sake of argument lets say the likes of ian paisley. but an english minister well now your just being silly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

why ever so???? what on earth does an english minister have to do with this??

from all the reading above david, not brazil et al claim to be British (and Irish) but nowhere English. perhaps you meant to say an MP from NI - and one with a british identity. and for the sake of argument lets say the likes of ian paisley. but an english minister well now your just being silly.

---

The point is that NI fans want their own team, have their own identity.

Given that there hasn't been an independent United Ireland for over 800 years a single national; team for this island would make as much sense to them as a single national team for these islands would make to us.

The typical argument is that we play as one team in rugby and the orange bit in the tricolour is there to cover the unionists.

Well these islands play as one team in rugby - British (and Irish mentioned sometimes) Lions and we have the cross of St. Patrick in the Union Jack already.

Now just imagine how you'd feel if some idiot in Downing Street had a few G&Ts too many and proposed the above. I'd guess you'd be a teeny weeny bit ****ed off. ;) Now you can imagine how the Northern Ireland fans feel

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gspain

The point is that NI fans want their own team, have their own identity.

Given that there hasn't been an independent United Ireland for over 800 years a single national; team for this island would make as much sense to them as a single national team for these islands would make to us.

The typical argument is that we play as one team in rugby and the orange bit in the tricolour is there to cover the unionists.

Well these islands play as one team in rugby - British (and Irish mentioned sometimes) Lions and we have the cross of St. Patrick in the Union Jack already.

Now just imagine how you'd feel if some idiot in Downing Street had a few G&Ts too many and proposed the above. I'd guess you'd be a teeny weeny bit ****ed off. ;) Now you can imagine how the Northern Ireland fans feel

---

yeah but NI fans identify to being British citizens, Irish people and their country is NI. nowhere is england mentioned here at all. if you are going for comparison then it would be a DUP party member in Stormont calling for a unitied team under the stewardship of the IFA. should an English MP be calling for a unified team then the comparison should be for a UK team including NI and would have nothing to do with ROI. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gspain

T and we have the cross of St. Patrick in the Union Jack already.

---

Jaysús, you make it sound like something we should be proud of !!

[QUOTE=Paddy Garcia;611915][QUOTE=EalingGreen;611713]Like most people who post on Message Boards, sometimes I'm serious, sometimes I'm just out for a laugh.

Quote:

---

The "I'm just out for a laugh" attitude I am unfortunately all too familiar with, notably ubiquitous in the 1970's in England. Sorry but frankly I prefer the honesty of the billy boys than an erudite apologist.

---

What the hell has "1970's England" got to do with anything I've posted? And just what is it I'm apologising for (eruditely or otherwise?).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

EG, we're just going to have to disagree on so called "tapping up/poaching" as used in this context. I don't believe it exists -and even if it did it's doubtful there's anything indictable involved. I've said before on this board and OWC that I believe the modalitys involved in playing international football for anyone are far less formal than many imagine.

Finally, I have to pull you up on your assertion that this AI team ( I've already stated I'm not in favour of it) call only comes when ye're doing well and or we are not.
Previous to Dermot Aherns trolling, the most column inches awarded to this topic happened roundabout a time when NI had just crossed 1000 minutes without a goal. I believe it was Derek Dougan who raised the issue at the time -and I'm hardly exaggerating in pointing out he was roundly savaged for such "treachery."

---

Re. the tapping up - fair enough, agree to disagree.

Re. the raising of a single Irish team, my point was that the call is most frequent/vocal from the Southern side of the Border, when you wee mexicans are going through a bad patch.
Dougan is one of ours (just about!). However, one of the reasons he was excoriated was because he made utterly false allegations about "party songs" etc at NI internationals, yet when pressed, he was forced to admit he hadn't actually attended Windsor in years!
In fact, as far as I can remember, he was preparing to stand in an Election for some fringe, basket-case party (UKIP or somesuch?), so was garnering as much media attention as he could. He was even on Question Time, where he said nothing of note.
So whatever his views on a "United Ireland Dream Team", he's only keeping company with fellow Troll, Aherne!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by co. down green

Ealing

Thanks for your in-depth analysis into what makes us ‘northern’?? based Ireland fans tick.

To be honest with you, your generalisations have a whiff of prejudice about them.

Personally, I don’t differentiate between Ireland fans from different parts of the country, it’s the camaraderie, passion and togetherness that has always impressed me when travelling home and away.

I’ve been following Ireland for 23 years and do you honestly believe that I have invested all that time and money to make a political statement or to annoy n.i’s small fan base – grow up, man.

CDG,
I was particularly careful in my use of language when making my original point, namely:
"For one thing, the majority of ROI fans that we tend to meet on a day-to-day basis are inevitably from "the North". Now, at the risk of repeating a huge generalisation, or stereotype, Northern ROI fans are often different from Southern ones"
and
"However, certain Northern ROI fans are sometimes very different"
In fact, one doesn't have to look too far on this Board, to find posters making just such the same sort of distinction between Northern and Southern fans.
However, I do not consider that every Northern ROI fan is the same, hence my use of qualification to exclude people such as yourself.

I doubt if many hate your team, most Nationalists in the North just don't have any connection with the team and their symbols. The English Flag and Anthem, the Sash and the Dambusters have little meaning to your average sports fan. The team is pretty much irrelevant to kids from nationalist areas who are more interested in Robbie Keane and Shay Given.

You first sentence is fair enough. However, I cannot ever recall an "English Flag" at WP (except, obviously when England play); nor do I recall any (English) Anthem. If it's GSTQ you mean, then that is the NA of the UK of GB & NI. Personally, I'd rather we used a more distinctive NI song, as do many fellow fans, but I fail to see how a 90 second song played even before the kick-off should be any more of a real deterrent than e.g. the Soldiers' Song (played twice!) is at Lansdowne, for those thousands of NI football fans who also follow rugby. In my experience, such things are only important to those determined to make them so.
As for the "Sash", that hasn't been heard at an NI international in years, so frankly, that point is ******. And the Dambusters? Jeez, get a life.
Regarding your last sentence, I've no doubt there are kids in Nationalist areas in NI who are more interested in (Dubliner) RK or (Donegal's) SG.
However, there are also kids in other Nationalist, or mixed, areas such as my own County, Fermanagh, who may differ. They will have witnessed the likes of Roy Carroll, Kyle Lafferty, Kieran McKenna (Spurs & NI U-19 Captain) and Michael McGovern (Celtic & NI U-21 captain) and noted that they came up through the Fermanagh & Western and inter-county Milk Cup systems etc, as well as attending local schools etc. And if the players themselves can associate with NI, why not their teammates, friends, families and neighbours?

Regarding eligibility, its clear that ‘tapping up’ up is a figment of your supporters ‘paranoid & suspicious’ (your words) imagination.

Both Chris Baird and Kieran McKenna have mentioned in interviews that they were approached by the FAI whilst part of the NI set-up, without their ever having expressed any dissatisfaction or discontent with the IFA etc. These are only two examples of approaches which I know about. Neither is a figment of my imagination.

There is nothing more natural than a young Irish pro wanting to represent Ireland at the international stage in Lansdowne Road or Croke Park, and growing numbers of young players from the North of the Island are choosing this route, especially since the FAI were forced to drop the ‘unwritten’ 1950’s understanding about eligibility.

Who "forced" the FAI to drop which 'unwritten' understanding?

As I have mentioned on a previous thread, it is unfair for the IFA to use its resources on players who clearly don’t have any affinity to the team, so the solution would be for the FAI’s National Development Plan to be extended to the main catchments in the North, to cater for the growing number of players choosing the international path via Dublin. If the FAI has structures in place from schoolboy level the burden will be reduced on the IFA.
Perhaps Mr. Ahern could channel some of the 1.2 Billion promised to the North, into implementing the extension of the FAI’s youth development schemes in Belfast & Derry.

Whilst I have nowhere expressed opposition to any NI-born youngster who was not already happily in the IFA set-up opting for the ROI, what you are suggesting goes much further. As such, I have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT that UEFA/FIFA would prohibit the FAI making an unwelcome intrusion directly into the jurisdiction of another National Association. The whole international set-up is based on respecting the integrity of each Association equally.
As for Mr. Ahern channelling money into football in the North (again unwelcome), FIFA would clamp down on this like a ton of bricks. Even as we debate this, they are presently telling the Polish Government to stay out of the running of football in Poland. This follows on from recent disputes with the Governments of Greece and Kenya (and many more) - just Google "FIFA, Governments, political interference" and I daresay you'll find plenty of proof.
(And in any case, Ahern is only electioneering. As soon as the votes are counted, he will forget his new-found interest in football)

As regards the atmosphere at Windsor Park November 93, from were I was sitting in the Railway Stand that night, the atmosphere was vicious, Racist & sectarian. I have never encountered anything like it before, or since.

I, too, was at that game. I have always accepted that there was a sizeable element in the NI support that behaved deplorably. However, my quibble is with the extent of it. Now I don't expect you to accept my account, but I am quite happy to point to Gary Spain's account elsewhere on this thread, for a fair and balanced perspective. Or is he biased?

But I suppose every event has its lighter moments and to quote from the Paul McGrath’s ‘The Black Pearl Of Inchicore’
“The funniest thing on the way out (of Windsor Park) was the bloke giving Niall Quinn stick on the steps of the coach as we got ready to go away. He was telling Niall to “F**k off back to Dublin, you Fenian basta*d”. Niall, cool as a cucumber, just turned to him and said, “I’ll send you a postcard from America pal.” I nearly wet myself with laughter”.

---

Indeed. It is to Big Quinn and McGrath's credit (and typical of them), that they, at least, managed to retain a sense of perspective amidst the "sectarian hate-fest", at which no ROI supporter was actually assaulted or injured, never mind murdered...

(P.S. I make that last point not in order to claim any sort of "credit" for what should be universal at every football match; rather, to distinguish it from the many football matches around the world where actual violence has occurred, unlike this one being discussed)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

yeah but NI fans identify to being British citizens, Irish people and their country is NI. nowhere is england mentioned here at all. if you are going for comparison then it would be a DUP party member in Stormont calling for a unitied team under the stewardship of the IFA. should an English MP be calling for a unified team then the comparison should be for a UK team including NI and would have nothing to do with ROI. ;)

---

Dermot Aherne called for an All Ireland team which would be the only national football team I'm aware of that would span an International border.

There is actually an argument (I don't agree with it) for a single national team for the UK. I don't see it happening. The daft idea of a single national team for these islands is probably a parallel with Dermot Aherne's suggestion. It won't happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamjar

Jaysús, you make it sound like something we should be proud of !!

---

No I don't. It is a good analagy though as the Union Jack no more represents me than the orange bit in the tricolour represents a unionist in NI.

BTW the history is that we broke away from the IFA in the 1920's because of a supposed Belfast bias. They persisted in picking an All Ireland team until 1950 when we put pressure on FIFA and on the players to stop representing them. Clubs such as Aston Villa told their RoI players they would no longer be released. This is all documented by Peter Byrne in is excellent history of the FAI in 1996 which will hopefully be updated and re-released soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Talking b*llocks as in making up fibs about players being 'tapped' up.

Trouble is with bigots like you is that a NI fan/player who follows/plays for Ireland is gloryhunting or making a political statement/tapped up or a raving chucky. As for the sh*te about eligibility, well I'm not a betting man, but I'd put money on us continuing to pick players from the 32 counties and their offspring who want to play for us. ;) In fact, FIFA have if anything made things easier. Before, players could only choose one association if they had played more than 45 minutes. Now its age, dual nationality, youth teams, friendlies. Changing the rules here means changing them everywhere, or are you too stoooopid to figure that one out.

Oh and by the way, if its good enough for you to pick up any naturalised so - and - so living in Battersea for the past 5 years, then I think its good enough for us to facilitate any Irishman who wants to play for us, whatever his motives.


LOL. It's something Bernard Manning would come out with. Bet you use the T word in closed circles too. Actually the first time I saw 'beggar' was in that well respected fanzine 'The Blues Brothers' (Linfield, Rangers, Chelsea: Issue 13 page 13 has it being used by a German no less), of whom the editor is known amongst some of the lesser inteligentsia on ourweeminds. It was used in reference to Celtic (beggars, charity club, gedditt!!!). Of course how it came to refer to us is really puzzling. :rolleyes:
For some of the people on ourweeminds, of which thanks to PG finding his attempt at emulating Yeats, we can include EG in that category, the hostility towards us is a political bigotry (tinged no doubt amongst some with religious bigotry) towards all things Irish nationalist or Republican. I used to like ourweeminds. It was a good laugh. But too much of it depresses me now, more because of the paranoia than what is actually written of us (EG provides plenty above), and the fact that I still can't reciprocate the feeling of euphoria when NI lose. It's like another former good entertainment website of mine, **********.org. Basically if you replace the Zionist Occupational Government with the FAI and replace Jews with everyone from the Irish News to Uncle Gerry, you get the drift of what it can be summed up as.

---

Another typically meritricious, irrelevant and at times offensive contribution from this poster.

I have already posted elsewhere the references which lead me to believe that "tapping-up" may be occurring.

Nowhere have I ever characterised everyone from NI who follows the ROI football team (I assume you don't mean "Ireland", as in the rugby team?) as "gloryhunting or making a political statement/tapped up or a raving chucky".
That is your (wilful?) misinterpretation of my posts.

As for FIFA's Rules on the eligibility of NI-born players representing the ROI, that has yet to be finally resolved.

What on earth has Bernard Manning got to do with anything I've posted? (And when I ask that question, I'd like some direct quotations from me in any reply you make)

As for "the T word" and my alleged use of it (I assume you mean "Taig"?), how dare you make such an accusation against someone you've never met? Indeed, all you know about me is what I've posted here and I defy you to find anything which has in any way condoned, never mind advocated, vile sectarianism of the kind with which you appear fixated.

As for the term "Beggar", I said I had no idea where it came from - that is a simple statement of fact. If, as you claim, it came from "The Blues Brothers", then I am in no position to know, since I've never supported Chelsea, Linfield or Rangers and so have never read their magazine. (But I repeat my opinion that as football insults go, that's by no means the worst thing one fan has called another)

I have no idea what point your trying to make about PG (who?) and Yeats, not least because your syntax is so fcuked up. Anyhow, it would appear you're accusing me of "political bigotry" (even "religious bigotry"?) amidst all that drivel. Once again, I would like some examples of this, quoted from my posts, that is.

As for your final "point", where you compare OWC to **********, I can only suggest you report OWC to Gerry Gable at Searchlight on www.searchlightmagazine.com.
I should be most intrigued (and no doubt highly amused) if you could post for us any reply which you might receive.
In the meantime, however, you might like to consider that as well as being offensive in your gratuitous use of personal insults ("bigot" etc), you are also making yourself look very stupid indeed when you make posts like the above.

P.S. If you are still having difficulyy understanding why I termed the ROI as "NI's nearest rivals" in an earlier post, here's a wee clue:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...d-Capitals.PNG

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

What the hell has "1970's England" got to do with anything I've posted? And just what is it I'm apologising for (eruditely or otherwise?).

---

Well Lopez pointed it out for you with his Bernard Manning reference. It was a period where individuals would defend using offensive terminology (often of a racist nature) by a) I was just out for a laugh and b) well I could have called you something worse - so don't complain, I'll be happy if it's the worst I'm called. It's poor really.

Just to be clear - I said you were an apologist not apologising. There is a significant difference.

Apologist: "A person who supports a particular belief or political system, especially an unpopular one, and speaks or writes in defence of it".

In this context this would include:

* Offensive terminology "beggars" (not the worst possible I totally agree);
* Rejoycing when Ireland lose yet reproaching Irish fans for supporting NI opponents. Surprised you can't see the irony here.
* "some unknown cretin phoned a death threat to a Belfast Newspaper, which NL sadly had to take seriously" acknowledgement of some wrong doing but then placing the blame firmly with Lennon for taking it seriously. I must say this is typical of some of your posts.
* "surely the whole point about a Message Board is that posters are contributing their "baggage" i.e. opinions?" Yiou defend the OWC board - well on your "darkside" thread alone there is a suggestion to go to Crewe to do God knows what to O'Connor and another to blow up the FAI (granted might get more support than you would think).
* Your poem is not the worst either, but I think you will find that little good will come from the cumulative effect of this type of hostility to your neighbour. You more than most seem to understand the context and sensitivities, especially the impact on the young in both NI communities.
* "But as fans who in very recent times have had to live through following a team which was "Unutterably Shi te", with all the accompanying jibes that went with it, I'd have thought it was only human nature to have a giggle". Do you, don't then be suprised if you alienate young players with any connections to that country?

You may well be full of good intentions (& funnily enough I kind of believe you are), but I don't think you should wonder too hard at why some young players don't want to play for you.

O yeah, I think you will find the term beggars relates to the time of the famine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Another typically meritricious, irrelevant and at times offensive contribution from this poster...

---

LOL. :D

Thanks to PG (Paddy Garcia, stoooopid! :rolleyes: ) for explaining the comparison to Bernard Manning, although knowing you, it's wasted, but here we go. Basically, your reply is the usual 'they shouldn't be so offended' line which is Manning's stock answer to charges of being a racist. As for being called 'beggar', meaning someone that goes around poncing, or an Irish christian name, I'd take the latter anyday, although among the two brain cells that occupy the space between your ears, they mean the same thing.

And finally, with regards to **********.org, you must either be one thick, wee cookie or you were so incensed at being called the B word (political or religious) - your use of the word 'beggar' qualifies you in my eyes - that you failed to see that the comparison is not of doctrine, but of the laughable acceptance of 'boogeymen' and conspiracy theories, of which you too are culpable (eg: references which lead me to believe that "tapping-up" may be occurring). The clue Einstein was in the line '...if you replace the Zionist Occupational Government with the FAI and replace Jews with everyone from the Irish News to Uncle Gerry, you get the drift of what [ourweeminds] can be summed up as.'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

Well Lopez pointed it out for you with his Bernard Manning reference. It was a period where individuals would defend using offensive terminology (often of a racist nature) by a) I was just out for a laugh and b) well I could have called you something worse - so don't complain, I'll be happy if it's the worst I'm called. It's poor really.

Just to be clear - I said you were an apologist not apologising. There is a significant difference.

Apologist: "A person who supports a particular belief or political system, especially an unpopular one, and speaks or writes in defence of it".

In this context this would include:

* Offensive terminology "beggars" (not the worst possible I totally agree);
* Rejoycing when Ireland lose yet reproaching Irish fans for supporting NI opponents. Surprised you can't see the irony here.
* "some unknown cretin phoned a death threat to a Belfast Newspaper, which NL sadly had to take seriously" acknowledgement of some wrong doing but then placing the blame firmly with Lennon for taking it seriously. I must say this is typical of some of your posts.
* "surely the whole point about a Message Board is that posters are contributing their "baggage" i.e. opinions?" Yiou defend the OWC board - well on your "darkside" thread alone there is a suggestion to go to Crewe to do God knows what to O'Connor and another to blow up the FAI (granted might get more support than you would think).
* Your poem is not the worst either, but I think you will find that little good will come from the cumulative effect of this type of hostility to your neighbour. You more than most seem to understand the context and sensitivities, especially the impact on the young in both NI communities.
* "But as fans who in very recent times have had to live through following a team which was "Unutterably Shi te", with all the accompanying jibes that went with it, I'd have thought it was only human nature to have a giggle". Do you, don't then be suprised if you alienate young players with any connections to that country?

You may well be full of good intentions (& funnily enough I kind of believe you are), but I don't think you should wonder too hard at why some young players don't want to play for you.

---

Re. your Bernard Manning line, quote me one example where I posted something racist or offensive, then tried to pretend I was joking, or that it wasn't serious, or that the butt of the joke should just put up with it, for the sake of pleasing me, rather than himself. Just one.

And I know what an apologist is.
* To take your examples, I have no intention, or even need, to defend people who use the term "beggar" in the context which it's been used here i.e. banter between football fans. But I think, deep down, you know that, by your admission that it's not the "worst possible". It seems to me that in your attempt to discredit me, you're having to scrape the barrel, since it's the "worst" I've ever posted.
* As for "rejoicing when ROI loses", I don't actually get my enjoyment from football by reference to a rival team losing. Naturally, I get my fun from seeing my own team win.
However, having taken so much crap during all the games where NI were losing, to the great enjoyment of rival fans (e.g. the Fran Rooney joke), it just makes victory all the sweeter. (Why am I having to explain this? Did you only take up following football last week, or something?)
* As for Lennon, perhaps I phrased it badly (though I don't think I did). Anyhow, what I was trying to say was that having been threatened, NL had no choice but to take it seriously. In that respect, it was a sad, as well as deplorable, state of affairs. I have been consistently sympathetic to NL, which you would know had you looked at some of the rest of my posts on OWC, rather than selectively quoting a fragment as you did earlier. For the record, the opportunity to show my support for NL was the deciding factor in my flying back from London for the next game after he had been booed vs Norway. But if I had put the blame on the victim (NL), quote me one example of how this is "typical of some of my posts".
* As for the OWC Board, whilst I defend the Board as a whole, and the spirit it reflects, how on earth could anyone defend every single post or poster on so widespread a forum? That's about as ludicrous as you defending every post on this Board, including mine. For the record, there is no way I would ever condone someone e.g. threatening O'Connor or threatening to "blow up the FAI" - quite the opposite. Unless, of course, you can find me one example where I have ever advocated, defended or been an apoligist for such disgraceful suggestions.
* - As for my little ditty (I think "poem" somewhat pretentious), how does that qualify as being "hostile"? It's just the sort of "dig" that rival football fans engage in the world over. Good grief. You know, if that's the best evidence you can find to hang me, then you're looking pretty desperate...
* As for your last "point", this is the most bizarre of the lot. When NI fans sing in support of our own team at the expense of a rival team (in this case, ROI), we include all of our fans in the singing i.e including those from a Catholic/Nationalist background (however few/many there may be). We're all NI fans, supporting our team. As long as we're not being obscene or offensive, why on earth should we feel some sort of extra sensitivity for the fans of our rivals? After all, we know that if and when the tide turns, which it always does in football, it will be our turn to grin and bear it. Again.

As for young players wanting to play for NI, I want all kids from NI to play for us, regardless of background, just so long as they also want to play for us. Any who might get upset at our having a dig at the Begga... oops, ROI, are already sympathetic to them anyhow, so aren't likely to want to give 100% to us anyway. Which is entirely fair enough: each to his own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

O yeah, I think you will find the term beggars relates to the time of the famine.

---

I think you and Lopez should get your stories straight. According to his previous post, it is a reference to Celtics having been set up as a charity, or somesuch drivel. Someone else posted that it derives from the FAI's policy of "begging" players from their neighbours - you know, "Find An Irishman" etc.

Frankly, none of us knows and I don't altogether care, since there doesn't have to be a reason or explanation - it's just one of those things. (Perhaps you'd be better thinking up a corresponding nickname for us. "Benefactors" perhaps? After all, we gave you the game ;) )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

LOL. :D
or you were so incensed at being called the B word (political or religious) - your use of the word 'beggar' qualifies you in my eyes

---

Not "incensed", if for no other reason than that you are hardly worth getting annoyed over. Nonetheless, I do take exception at being termed a "bigot", especially when all the evidence of my posts demonstrates my stance on such matters.
Then again, perhaps I'm more sensitive to that charge, as an Irishman who was born and brought up in a country (Ireland) where, sadly, bigotry was/is a part of life.
As such, I think I know more about it than an "Irishman" like yourself who was brought up outside of Ireland (in the comparatively liberal and tolerant haven that is London, no less), but still feels qualified to lecture others on the subject, whilst unselfconsciously betraying signs of that very same bigotry himself.
But if this stems from your subconscious determination to "prove" your credentials as a "brave, true and patriotic Irishman", perhaps I should be more sympathetic.
Or, to paraphrase the Men of Munster - "Londoner by Birth, but ******** by the Grace of God" :eek:

(For *******, you might choose a word that rhymes loosely with horlicks)

Just wanted to give my genuine belief on why and when the term "beggar" came into the vocabulary of many Northern Ireland fans.

As I understand it, it dates to the Charlton era when the ROI utilised eligibility rules to their great advantage.

Even tho Northern Ireland have since used these rules regularly themselves, the term has stuck.

It might be a hypocritical term and it was probably born out of a jealousy factor of our neighbours during Charlton's remarkable reign.

I do not believe that is used with any more malice than many other terms for rivals - and I accept that many ROI fans do not consider Northern Ireland "big" rivals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Not "incensed"...

---

'...how dare you make such an accusation against someone you've never met?' Yeah right! I haven't managed to p*ss someone off so much since the British Mercenary 'Tony Cascarino' f*cked out five posts in a hour to me after I insulted his former boss General Ante Govotina. :D

The rest of your post made so little sense it hardly deserves a response. Tip from the top though, never post when you've been at the sauce. But then senseless posts seem to be your speciality (Who can ever forget the suggestion of singing British Army songs at an Ireland game?) I'll try one last time.

If you don't like being called a bigot then don't use sectarian terms. Yeah it's all a football thing, blah, blah, blah, :rolleyes: but as you are so keen to point out being 'Irish born etc/brought up amongst bigotry/you'll never know what a terrible life we had reading books or watching TV' you should be the first to realise the sensitivity of the subject. And BTW, who gets to judge who should and shouldn't be offended? You and Bernard Manning or the people the insults are directed at?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Yeah right! I haven't managed to p*ss someone off so much since the British Mercenary 'Tony Cascarino' f*cked out five posts in a hour to me after I insulted his former boss General Ante Govotina. :D

I don't understand any of the above, nor do I wish to. It makes absolutely no contribution to a debate over a single Irish team.

The rest of your post made so little sense it hardly deserves a response. Tip from the top though, never post when you've been at the sauce. But then senseless posts seem to be your speciality (Who can ever forget the suggestion of singing British Army songs at an Ireland game?)

It wasn't a suggestion, it was an analogy (with your defence of singing political/IRA songs at ROI matches); once again, you misrepresent me.

I'll try one last time. If you don't like being called a bigot then don't use sectarian terms.

---

If I use sectarian terms, then I will accept being labelled a "bigot". So far, all you've managed to come up with is my occasional lighthearted use of the term "Beggar". I'll allow others to judge whether that is "sectarian", especially when set against my other posts on the subject (which you consistently ignore).

As for your contributions, however, these consistently fail to address any substantive issues. Instead, you just snipe from the sidelines in an attempt to "score points" and when challenged specifically on your sniping, your only response is a degeneration into gratuitous personal insults, couched in a style which you may consider to be characterful and witty, but instead comes across as pure horlicks. (Cascarino, Govotina etc).

Anyway, for the benefit of other readers, I'll point out (again) that if a single team is ever to have any hope of succeeding, it will only ever come about following a genuine meeting of minds of both NI and ROI supporters. As such, this thread has produced an interesting debate from the likes of Wolfie, Dr. Peepee, GSpain etc, and even those such as Co.DownGreen and Paddy Garcia, with whom NI fans like myself would disagree strongly.

However, whilst there are people like you proposing such an idea from the South (or should that be "East"?), then I can promise you that no NI fan will ever have the slightest interest; after all, we've enough headcases in our own support to deal with, without having to import some more from abroad.



P.S. Figured out that map, yet? You know, "nearest rivals" and all that...:eek:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

...So far, all you've managed to come up with is my occasional lighthearted use of the term "Beggar"...

---

Still don't geddit?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

...As for your contributions... [etc. ad nauseum]

---

YAWN!! :rolleyes:

Will there be any resolution to this "Footballing Logjam" !!!!!!!!!

Maybe Roy Keane and Norman Whiteside could mediate!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Will there be any resolution to this "Footballing Logjam" !!!!!!!!!

Maybe Roy Keane and Norman Whiteside could mediate!!

---

My money's on Stormin Norman to put Keane down before the third round's over. (or should that be "third round's drunk"?) :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Re. your Bernard Manning line, quote me one example where I posted something racist or offensive, then tried to pretend I was joking, or that it wasn't serious, or that the butt of the joke should just put up with it, for the sake of pleasing me, rather than himself. Just one.

---

don't know if it is classed as bigotry but i took offense to this line you wrote earlier in the thread

"......when you wee mexicans are going through a bad patch. "

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

don't know if it is classed as bigotry but i took offense to this line you wrote earlier in the thread

"......when you wee mexicans are going through a bad patch. "

---

Mexicans? South of the border, down me-hee-co way. 'Out in the North Louth town of Dundalk/I fell in love with a Mexican girl/Nighttime would find me in Rosa's cantina /Music would play and Feleena would whirl.' Geddit? Very funny mans ees our Heeeling Green.:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

don't know if it is classed as bigotry but i took offense to this line you wrote earlier in the thread

"......when you wee mexicans are going through a bad patch. "

---

Why?:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Why?:confused:

---

Maybe he's a big mexican

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Why?:confused:

---

what does a wee mexican have to do with the ROI

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

what does a wee mexican have to do with the ROI

---

Lopez's post might explain it to you.

It may or may not be funny, but it's hardly the stuff to get offended by.

That would be akin to suggesting that people should be offended by the term "hun" - of which I'm sure you're familiar.;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

what does a wee mexican have to do with the ROI

---

Bloody Hell! Do I have to explain everything to you lot? ;)

"Mexicans" is a term of endearment employed by "Nordies" to refer to their Southern cousins. I've always presumed that it comes from the Lyric of (South of the Border) "Down Mexico Way" - coincidentally written by Ulsterman Jimmy Kennedy.

I've heard Southerners use the term in reference to themselves. It has a particular relevance to Lionel Ritchie (to whose post I was replying when I used it)

No doubt, though, this along with my use of the term "Beggar" is conclusive proof of my "bigotry" to the likes of Lopez - the self-same Oirishman who defends the singing of IRA songs at ROI football matches...:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamjar

Maybe he's a big mexican

---

:D
This debate proves there never will be a united Ireland soccer team.Itsnever going to happen, lets move on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheifo

:D
This debate proves there never will be a united Ireland soccer team.Itsnever going to happen, lets move on.

---

Six pages of sh ite, could have been saved if someone had said this at the start :D

PS There's never going to be a United Ireland either!! (Dons tin hat):D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheifo

:D
This debate proves there never will be a united Ireland soccer team.Itsnever going to happen, lets move on.

---

Yep. I think I said as much on page 2.

On the more important issue - I still reckon Keane to beat Whiteside - no contest!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Lopez's post might explain it to you.

It may or may not be funny, but it's hardly the stuff to get offended by.

That would be akin to suggesting that people should be offended by the term "hun" - of which I'm sure you're familiar.;)

---

so if i made the following statement on OWC it would not offend anyone:

the raising of a single Irish team came well before ye huns up north started to go through a relatively decent patch.

;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

...No doubt, though, this along with my use of the term "Beggar" is conclusive proof of my "bigotry" to the likes of Lopez - the self-same Oirishman who defends the singing of IRA songs at ROI football matches...

---

No more 'conclusive proof' is required.

BTW, thanks to the 'boys of the old brigade' I am able to watch a team that plays something other than some sh*te about a German woman as its national anthem, and that my country's flag is more representative than some rampant toff's coat of arms related to some w*nkers' club, hidden at the back of two other countries' flags. True, they only managed to get what? 80% of the country, but if you've ever read of British history of the time (I doubt you read anything more exerting than the Daily Sport) it was an superb acheivement getting that. Basically, to paraphrase a ditty another of your 'nearest rivals' would sing (ones that you have played a hell of lot more than us, and have managed to get matches switched to neutral venues more successfully than the FAI) : 'If it weren't for them [the boys], we'd be Brits.' I'll devote a special rendition to you next week in San Marino. :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

so if i made the following statement on OWC it would not offend anyone:

the raising of a single Irish team came well before ye huns up north started to go through a relatively decent patch.

;)

---

Would it offend you? ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

...That would be akin to suggesting that people should be offended by the term "hun" - of which I'm sure you're familiar.;)

---

I never understand that one. Huns? Where's that one come from? Surely, it should be the other way around. When EG's pop pickers were top of the charts, wasn't Roger Casement hanging out with the 'Huns?'