:D I like it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamjar
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:D I like it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamjar
I would be much more interested in having an all-island league than an all-Ireland team.
I was in unfamiliar territory at Lansdowne for the Last Stand against Ulster there a few weeks ago for my first ever inter-provincial (yawn). Now, I understand that these lads tend to be mellow, but there was no problem whatsoever with Ulster fans waving red hand flags with crowns on.
Apart from the vested interests, which could be overcome if enough weight of opinion was behind the idea, I can't see a good reason why we can't have an honest fudge, and just like rugby, sidestep the politics for the benefit of the game.
Trevor Brennan might disagree! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by BohDiddley
Agree totally with this post.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohDiddley
1. Nationalism is only a concoction of the ruling classes to justify imperialism and capitalism, so I personally couldn't give a flying feck whether Ireland play as one team or not. We need a united workers republic team to represent us.
2. International football is doomed, if the big european clubs get their way as regards compensation for players injured on international duty.
3. Ireland, north and south, will never sustain professional football. There just is not the support for it. There are too many teams and not enough paying punters. Ideas like those tried in rugby, a few professional clubs playing in a celtic league is the way forward. Have half a dozen professional clubs from Ireland (north and south), the welsh league and the bottom half of the scottish premier league. Hell, why not even get some lower league english teams involved.
4. As long as Ireland (united or NI/RoI) beat england, I'm happy. (Unfortunately some remnants of jingoism remain with me, I am working on this)
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
There are four key differences though that totally blow your arguement here out of the water :
1) The people of Brazil are Brazilians, and the people of Argentina are Argentinians. Meanwhile, as you yourself rightly asert, the people of both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are Irish. We're talking about the same people here (albeit with a sub-section primarily in the north-east of the island), with a shared history, culture, language etc. Things that Brazil and Argentina simply do not have in common.
2) Anyone born in Northern Ireland is automatically entitled to play for the Republic. This is simply not the case with Brazil and Argentina.
3) The Republic and the North play together as one team in practically all sports. Brazil and Argentina play together in no sports.
4) There has in the past been a single team representing the island of Ireland in international football. This was only changed for political, not footballing, reasons. This has [U][I]never[U][I] been the case for Brazil and Argentina.
So your arguement doesn't hold any water. Having a single international team for the island of Ireland would be absolutely nothing like Brazil and Argentina joining together, and to suggest so is ludicrous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
You mean - just like the flag and anthem of the Northern Irish team only recognises one section of that 'country's' population...? "Very fair indeed. I wonder why people up here are against that. You are being totally unreasonable".... :rolleyes:
For the record - I would be happy to have no tricolour or Amhran na bhFiann for a combined team. I'd even go so far as to say it would be essential. Sadly, many of our northern cousins seem unable to reciprocate such a liberal ethos, preferring to hide behind the spurious 'official' argument to enforce selective flag waving and song-singing when it comes to the Northern Ireland team though. "Very fair indeed"......
You are wrong here GalwayHoop - if only because you're not comparing like with like.Quote:
Originally Posted by galwayhoop
You say that you wouldn't accept an Irish team not playing under the ROI's current symbolism. This therefore clearly suggests that yiou wouldn't accept an all-island team playing under neither the north nor the south's symbolistic trappings. This is unreasonable, as you want it all your own way. A team representing 2 distinct regions, ethnic groups and identities must reflect only one of those identities exclusively, or you'll throw your toys out of the pram.
You then go on to ask would David accept an all-island team under the Republic's symbolism, when to provide a proper comparison with your own question you should've asked would he not support one that didn't use British symbolism solely.
You also didn't ask him would he support an all-island team under neither side's symbolism - which, regardless of his own personal answer to that question, is surely the only fair and sensible thing to do when combining 2 different regions and identites as one. Hence why such an approach is followed around the world in such initiatives to reflect and embrace difference (including, I might add, things in Northern Ireland such as the PSNI identity and make-up).
Been here before Steve. Fact is the national anthem of Northern Ireland is GSTQ. That is not being in any way sectarian, it is the national anthem of our country. Countries all over the world (including ROI) have their national anthem played before games, why should we be denied that?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I have already said that other sports and what they do does not interest or concern me. When Ireland play rugby I feel no affiliation whatsoever towards that team. They play with all the trappings of ROI and none of NI. I have nothing whatsoever against ROI but I am not from that country so do not identify with it. Yes we are all Irish and I have no problem whatsoever in someone classing me as Irish ie I am from the island of Ireland in much the same way that I have no problem in someone saying I am European.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
As for your argument that anyone from Northern Ireland can play for ROI, that is of course correct but something I feel is fundamentally wrong. In following this rule it means that someone could play for ROI having never set foot in that country nor any of their family having set foot in it. People have every right to aspire to a United Ireland but another fact is that this does not exist and the fact is that NI and ROI are as much two separate countries as Brazil and Argentina. Yes there are obvious links but they are two separate countries, governed by two separate governments with two separate currencies and two sets of laws.
when will people let this ridiculus idea die. I for one am not a unionist but NI will be around alot longer as a team. the supporters base is growing confidence is back and there is a feel good factor around at present. i wish ROI all the best but comments like this put relations btween the FA's and the two sets of fans years back.
using rugby as an example is ridiculus. i dont support Ireland,as mentioned before I feel its a disgrace for two countries playing as one representative team to only have the symbols and anthems of one of the countries. this sends out a message to people from NI of what the future in an AI team in football would be like and i for one would not feel a part of it
That's the general Nationalist demographic theory anyway - wait for all the Unionists to die or at least to be outnumbered. If I were you lot, I'd negotiate from a position of strength while you have a chance. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
KOH
GSTQ is the national anthem of the UK - yes. I don't remember it technically being the national anthem of individual parts of the UK though, which is probably why Scotland and Wales use their own separate ones, and why even England is highly likely to ditch it at some point. Other regions/nations like Cornwall also have their own separate anthems. Incidentally - GSTQ actually predates the Act of Union between Britain and Ireland in 1802.Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Even for the recent BBC1 programme where the 4 home nations competed in an interactive television quiz, they used 'Danny Boy' to represent NI, along with the individual anthems for the other home nations.
As for the 'fact' that GSTQ is the supposed national anthem not being sectarian, - just because something is a legal or political decision doesn't make it either fair, equitable, democratic or non-sectarian, particularly in a society like Northern Ireland which (as the news confirmed as recently as only yesterday) had a throughly scurrilous regiume at its head for years. Numerous such rules in NI under the Stormont regime and after, for example, may therefore have been 'fact' - but they were certainly also sectarian. Was it not sectarian to make it a criminal offence to display the flag of the Republic of Ireland in Northern Ireland up until 1980, even though you could legally display any other flag...? You see David - just because something is a political or legal 'fact' does not therefore automaticlly cleanse it of any inherent sectarianism.
Having a divisive flag and anthem to represent 2 bitterly divided communities may be 'fact' but it is also sectarian by its own definition. It seeks to represent only one 'sect'. And it is for this reaosn that GSTQ will inevitably go the way of other 'facts' with a sectarian basis - such as the RUC, Stormont, football on a Sunday, electoral gerrymandering - as the peace process thankfully progresses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
there is a difference between the word i used: IDENTIFY and that you used: ACCEPT.
i in no way identify to being british. never have had the need and never will. i am through and through irish.
my point, although it has been totally lost and mis-quoted, was that from my individual perspective i would not identify to a national team representing me which neither displayed my flag or played my anthem. end of story. i put forward that i would like an all ireland national team with tricolour and Amhrán na bhFiann. that is my opinion and i expect no-one else to agree with me on it - least of all david, or for that matter to ram it down anyone else's throat.
i have not asked david to identify to my flag or anthem or accept my nationalism as his or indeed to accept a national team which only championed these. in fact i am quite aware that he would never do so. my point all along was that this is my view but i'm fully aware that there are total polar opposite views out there too.
and as such the suggestion of an all ireland national team is much more unfeasible than just the FAI and IFA aggreement.
i have scanned through OWC and comments like over my dead body etc to the scenario are common place as expected.
if you would identify to an irish national team representieng anything british then thats your choice however i don't. i don't say i'm right but i'm not going to lie to make others feel good.
But it's ok when the shoe is on the other foot and the 2 divided communities within Northern Ireland have the symbolism of a single identity 'officially' forced upon them on the international stage ? And don't pretend that it's different because the 2 commnunities in the north aren't different countries - the principle is exactly the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassa
If you force an identity upon people that they cannot relate to, then they will reject it - along with anything claiming to represent them that carries that polarised identity. Hiding behind the mask of 'officialdom' does not change that reality.
Wonder why so many nationalists likewise do not feel part of a single representative international football team for the 2 distinct communities within the north, which only uses the symbols and anthems of one of the communties it claims to represent.....
But why must it be a zero-sum game for you - one side over the other ? Why can you only see the options as being Irish or British symbolism, and nothing else. Why not a combined identity (e.g. the South African flag) ?Quote:
Originally Posted by galwayhoop
Why not a single team with neither GSTQ or Amhranm na bhFiann; neither the Tricolour nor the Union Flag ?
Is your sense of Irishness so fragile that it can only be propped-up publically by one single song and one single flag/piece of cloth ? What is wrong with the 4 provinces flag, for example - it's Irish, and represents all parts of the island equally !? It's also quasi-official. What is wrong with any other song that might extoll the virtues and history of Ireland, other than just Amhran na bhFiann ? Why can it ONLY be one single song and one single flag ? Do you not see how ridicolous that sounds ?
We do cafés now too ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
dcfcsteve,Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Let's assume the following scenario.
Northern Ireland international football adopts a new sporting anthem and "official" flag, it even moves to a new ground. It continues to select players from both communities. The team unapologetically represents "Northern Ireland".
The Republic of Ireland maintains current arrangements viz a viz anthem and flag, and more proactively seeks to encourage kids of a certain leaning in Northern Ireland to represent them.
Who will Northern nationalists/republicans support?
Whoever the hell they want David ! Some will support the Republic, some will support the north. That's life ! Though it is extremely likely that, over time, many more would support the North under such a scenario as you outlined above than would under the existing polarising set-up where the team rejects their identity and embraces an opposing one instead !Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
You're fixated with the whole numbers game of the issue, which is feckin irrelevant. For example, did the post-apartheid South African government say 'look how few white people there are in the country relative to us blacks, why do we need to bother including them in a new national flag' ? No - they changed the flag and anthem etc because it was simply the right thing to do to help heal a deeply divided and troubled society. They didn't spreadsheet the impact upon annual sales....
The Northern Ireland international team should likewise seek to do the right thing, and not use notions of ticket and merchandise sales before deciding whether they should bother seeking to not alienate a large chunk of the 2 communities they claim to represent.
I wasn't aware that concepts such as 'equality' and 'mutual respect' came with price tags or quorums attached.....
[QUOTE=dcfcsteve;610017]Whoever the hell they want David ! Some will support the Republic, some will support the north. That's life ! Though it is extremely likely that, over time, many more would support the North under such a scenario as you outlined above than would under the existing polarising set-up where the team rejects their identity and embraces an opposing one instead !
QUOTE]
I'm not David.
"extremely likely"?
Swap supporting the ROI for supporting Northern Ireland?
The "team" rejects nothing of their "identity" by the way.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooperatzi
I support Northern Ireland because I was born and reared in Northern Ireland.
I have supported Northern ireland since I was a boy, through good times and bad, and I will support Northern Ireland until my dying day.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I don't want the Northern Ireland team to merge with anyone - be that the Republic of Ireland, the rest of the UK, or even Brazil.
Who republicans support, no matter where they were born and reared, is entirely up to them.
Please don't expect Northern Ireland fans to jump through hoops for those who actively seek the demise of the Northern Ireland team.
If changes re anthem and flags etc are to come about, they will come about because Northern Ireland fans want them to - certainly not at the behest of those who would prefer "Northern" Ireland didn't exist.
Those discussions and debates (quite heated at times) are going on within the ranks of the Northern Ireland support.
Northern Ireland fans will decide what's best for us - nobody else.
I guess the patriotism of Northern Irish fans is no more, or less, than that associated with being a Republic of Ireland fan.
I take it you support the Republic because you were born there, not because of any political statement?
Please accept that Northern Ireland fans are exactly the same.
Hooperatzi,
"Firstly, I have consistantly stated that for various reasons the Norn Iron football community will be highly unlikely to give up their national side."
Of course, the "football community" in Northern Ireland comprises more than Northern Ireland fans. You are absolutely spot on about supporters of the national team tho.
"But you are on a different planet if you cant see why the side is an anathema to 45% of the population."
I can fully see thanks - I live, work and socialise in Northern Ireland with people from both traditions in Northern Ireland. I understand full well the issues. I accept and respect that 45% of people don't support the Northern Ireland team.
"The mask slipped a bit for the Who republicans support, no matter where they were born and reared, is entirely up to them" comment."
No mask on me. I respect people's right to support who they feel most comfortable with.
"Your comparisons with brazil are laughable. Brazil doesnt have a long running colonail border dispute with Argentina and claim it as a province."
Erm - I was joking.
"There is a uniqueness to the 6 county side and is disengenious to suggest otherwise. You are not 'just another country/national team' no matter how many times you say it. Whether it be the UK dimension or the all island one"
I know where I was born. I will not deny my birthright, even if you do.
The six county side is called Northern Ireland, by the way.
"And yes, lots of people would like the added political bonus of uniting the two sports as it would be hugely symbolic"
Not Northern Ireland supporters. Never mind "political bonuses". We support Northern Ireland because that's our place of birth. We want nothing to do with "symbolic" merges.
"Lets just stop beating around the bush. I oppose partition and as such oppose the NI team as a concept"
I respect your viewpoint. Please respect my differing viewpoint. I'll not beat around the bush either - I oppose unification, and oppose a unified football team as a concept.
"Nothing personal mate, but to me its a (admittedly improving) symbol of loyalist fervour and jingoistism"
Nothing personal either, but to me and the majority of people who were born and live in it, it's simply "home".
And home is where the heart is.
To me, things are pretty simple.
If you support and identify with Northern Ireland, fine.
If you support and identify with the ROI, that's fine too.
Whatever suits you best.
And, I should have added, I am tentatively supportive of the concept of an All Ireland league.:eek: :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooperatzi
Although, for me, it would never muster the same emotions as a Blues v Glens match.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooperatzi
No disrespect to you or Rovers.
I don't care about the National teams.Papering over cracks as far as I am concerned.We need All-Ireland league, but it must be done 110% properly.
In terms of needing the domestic league...could the Fai and Ifa both get away with having the 'Second Division' (the teams not yet good enough for the AIL) of each respective juristiction as the domestic leagues, and then just issue european places to the teams in the AIL?
It's too late for that, with the fans of here and now (though no reason why active fans couldn't watch both sidesx - I know some who do). It's more about the future really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Every single day, a whole new batch of football fans are literally being born in Northern Ireland. Some of those will go on to support a national team from these islands because of who their family and friends support. Otherrs because of their religion or where they live. But given that they won't be of an age to regularly attend games on their own for at least 15 years, and given the ongoing thaw in relations the peace process is thnakfully creating, it's highly likely that by 2022+ a lot of those won't just slavishly adopt a national team on the basis of their religion. It's highly likely that a lot of them will want to do what the Welsh, the Scots, the French etc do - i.e. just support their own wee patch of the planet.
However - if they find that the team is tied-up with symbolism of only one of the 2 communities in the province, then they will find themselves effectively forced into making a decision on the basis of their cultural identity and/or religion.
So you could sit their smugly and insinuate 'Feck any change - them Taigs would never come support us even if we put Gerry Adams in goals', but it's more about the legion of fresh unclaimed citizens and football supporters being churned out every day to replace the pre-determineds like you and me. Whilst your team clings to tribal antics like the footballing version of painted kerbstones, in a society that is continually dissolving such polarising shiboleths, then you will continue to force more of these young fresh 'unclaimed' supporters away from your team.
Pleeeaaaassssse ! :o "The team" is just another way of saying 'Northern Ireland'. I can't exactly call it a club, can I ? It doesn't matter if it was represented by 11 former IRA prisoners on the pitch, for as long as the team has to stand to attention for the flag and anthem of only one of the 2 communities in Northern Ireland, then it will be a polarising thing. Semantics don't change that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
dcfcsteve,
"it's highly likely that by 2022+ a lot of those won't just slavishly adopt a national team on the basis of their religion"
I refute this "religion" stuff.
Would you not agree that it's more of a cultural identity/political decision by most, rather than a decision based on theological interpretation?
I would guess that a very low percentage of attendees at Northern Ireland games actively practice any strand of exactly the same religion.
"So you could sit their smugly and insinuate 'Feck any change - them Taigs would never come support us even if we put Gerry Adams in goals', but it's more about the legion of fresh unclaimed citizens and football supporters being churned out every day to replace the pre-determineds like you and me."
"Taigs" would not be language that I would use to describe anyone.
I am pro change. I want a new, sporting, anthem to represent Northern Ireland international teams. I am open to discussion on the flag issue.
Whilst not my primary motivation for such changes, if it has the net effect of bringing in more "fresh unclaimed citizens" to our matches, I would be delighted.
The point I make is that the fact that our team represents the six counties that constitute "Northern Ireland" is enough to alienate a sizeable section of the nationalist/republican community in Northern Ireland.
Through the pages of this board alone, you will see that many have a reluctance to even refer to the place by it's name - it's "Northern Ireland".
The blunt truth is that the name will not change.
"Whilst your team clings to tribal antics"
I believe that the issue of anthems and flags flown at sporting occassions in Northern Ireland should be considered in the round.
It is more than "tribal antics", as you describe them, at Northern Ireland football matches that should be considered.
I continue to lobby for a new, "sporting", anthem to represent the Northern Ireland football team.
Wales and Scotland do it, England may soon do it, so I argue why shouldn't we do it. I believe such a move would reinforce our "Northern Irish" identity, not diminish it.
Maybe we should just scrap anthems at football matches altogether?
My "national" anthem will, however, always be that of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
would the majority of supporters in windsor pk be of this opinion? how about Danny Boy as a song and the flag being the team crest on a plain green background (i think i've seen supporters waving this before).Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
:rolleyes: the anthem is meant to symbolise the team representing the country and it also raises atmosphere levels in a football ground. the idea of scrapping it may be viewed as an option by you in relation to NI but to the rest of the world's teams it is simply a non-runner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
so why the problem with mine being Amhrán na bhFiannQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Galwayhoop,
"would the majority of supporters in windsor pk be of this opinion? how about Danny Boy as a song and the flag being the team crest on a plain green background (i think i've seen supporters waving this before)"
I don't think a majority would be of the same opinion at this time.
However, a growing number are being persuaded of the merits of a new, "sporting" anthem for Northern Ireland games.
I would say opinions are equally divided amongst no change at all, change to a new, "sporting" anthem and "the third way" ie. GSTQ in Belfast, together with a new, "sporting" anthem - akin to the practice of the IRFU.
"the anthem is meant to symbolise the team representing the country and it also raises atmosphere levels in a football ground. the idea of scrapping it may be viewed as an option by you in relation to NI but to the rest of the world's teams it is simply a non-runner"
That's Sepp Blatter told off (again) then.:D
"so why the problem with mine being Amhrán na bhFiann"
I have no problem with yours being Amhrán na bhFiann.
I don't know where you got that idea from.
I have stood in respect of your national anthem on many occassions - most recently at the ROI v San Marino fixture in Dublin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Amen Brother!
this is ridiculous! "northern ireland" is not a country, it is an administrative region, Ireland is the country of which the northern part is occupied and administered by a foreign government, the fact that a few settlers want to call themselves a country is irrelevant.
FYI i spend alot of time up north, would stay up there up to 3 days out of every week i would not class it as leaving the country or even crossing a border, the only thing that changes are the road signs and horrible red post boxes. they accept euros in most places and some ATMs even dispense euros. none of the people who I know consider themselves as "northern Irish" the are usually Irish or British. the whole concept of "Northern Ireland" is a farce, sure you bank notes even say "bank of Ireland". Re-unification is inevitable, the first thing to merge will be the police, football will be forced to merge sooner or later. the concept of "northern ireland" is a dying one. now wheres my tin of green paint so i can paint those post boxes the right colour!
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by s-side hoop
Here we go......
KOH
Indeed!!Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
Just when things were reasonably quiet and rational.
But not for long more!
s-side-hoop.
"this is ridiculous! "northern ireland" is not a country, it is an administrative region, Ireland is the country of which the northern part is occupied and administered by a foreign government, the fact that a few settlers want to call themselves a country is irrelevant."
Thanks for that contribution. Northern Ireland is my place of birth, and my home. I am not a "settler". I was born in Northern Ireland.
"FYI i spend alot of time up north, would stay up there up to 3 days out of every week i would not class it as leaving the country or even crossing a border, the only thing that changes are the road signs and horrible red post boxes. they accept euros in most places and some ATMs even dispense euros"
Great stuff.
"none of the people who I know consider themselves as "northern Irish" the are usually Irish or British"
I think you'll find that those of us who support the Northern Ireland team, consider ourselves Northern Irish. We might be Irish or British, or even both - but when we go to support Northern Ireland, we're Northern Irish.
"the whole concept of "Northern Ireland" is a farce. Re-unification is inevitable, the first thing to merge will be the police, football will be forced to merge sooner or later"
Well, until this "inevitable" unification comes about politically, we'll be supporting Northern Ireland.
Interesting use of the word "forced". I for one don't believe that "Ireland" can ever be truly "united" in any shape or form, until it's people are united. Unity comes through agreement, not force.
"the concept of "northern ireland" is a dying one"
Certainly not at the moment amongst it's football fans - good times rarely seemed so good.
Onwards and Upwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s-side hoop
Thats all any country is. All borders are arbitrary.
Fully endorsed. Self determination must work both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
According to members of the 4th International and other out-dated Trots and Reds maybe but I suspect the UN and EU might disagree with you on the arbitary nature of national borders. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
KOH
Seeing as how they are both constantly in the business of re-drawing maps they would be in no position to do so. Before the 17th century there was no such thing as the nation state. Germany and Italy didn't have it until the 19th century.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
Throwing insults around does not an arguement make.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers