Michael Doyle

Wrt Robbie you found the quotes that everyone was aware of anyway and despite plenty of compelling counter argument about what he probably meant, most notably from Danny, you decided to interpret it in a way that suited you. You pretty clearly refused to countenance any other interpretation. That's how I remember it anyway. I also have a vague recollection of challenging you to accept a set of possible future circumstances as being the ultimate arbiter and I think, but couldn't be ar$ed to go back and check, that you decided to ignore it.

This is what Geysir refers to when he says you switch to victim mode.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Wrt Robbie you found the quotes that everyone was aware of anyway and despite plenty of compelling counter argument about what he probably meant, most notably from Danny, you decided to interpret it in a way that suited you. You pretty clearly refused to countenance any other interpretation. That's how I remember it anyway. I also have a vague recollection of challenging you to accept a set of possible future circumstances as being the ultimate arbiter and I think, but couldn't be ar$ed to go back and check, that you decided to ignore it.

This is what Geysir refers to when he says you switch to victim mode.

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But some people had to be reminded about it; and I don't know what I ever said that warranted being called "fraudulent".

Of course I am going to interpret it the way I want. That's what all of us are doing. It's a two-way street.

OK could you elaborate on that further and I will answer now.

The onus is on you to go back. You've ignored plenty of other stuff too.

And yes, interpret stuff as you want - we all do - but if Im engaging in a debate with someone I have the decency to consider reasonable counters. You have a habit of not doing so.

Wrt Grealish, you mainly got carried away rather than presented fraudulent argument ( that was Geysir's accusation, I accused you of using fallacy which is different). You thought Grealish's remark was disgraceful, others saw it as a fact of life in context of dual nationality.

But in the following passage it appears to me you jumped to a firm conclusion as to what he would do and where his priorities lie:

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

I think it's pretty obvious what himself and his brother have mentioned several times and if he had the profile of a Ross Barkley or Jack Rodwell and was playing on loan at a Championship side instead of the worst team in League One, I think we all know where his bread would be buttered.

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I'd counter that we don't know, that's actually the whole point. On balance of what we know I'd agree with Geysir that he is ours to lose and I personally think we should show him a bit of extra attention. Similarly, on balance of what we know about Keane and his attitude towards playing for Ireland I'd say his "walk away" remark was more benign than you think.

I thought your use of various goal scoring stats was selective and spurious but equally I agreed with the broad thrust of your argument that Keane should not be an automatic starter, although I qualified where my rationale differed from yours.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Grealish is happy playing with the U-21s as they offer him more competitive football than the England U-19s. For now he is happy to play for Ireland. His long-term future is clearly left open for interpretation.

Will someone - for the love of God - please tell me how I manipulated what he was saying?

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Stutts has summed it up pretty well above, but you're now misrepresenting the original gist of what you were saying. If I'm not mistaken, you attempted to portray it as if Grealish is taking us for fools, has his heart set on England and will switch at the slightest hint of a senior cap for them based purely on an ambiguous comment and the decisions that previous and unrelated England internationals of Irish heritage have made, as if we have any way of knowing for sure. Your tone was accusatory and condemnatory when there was no reason to be alarmist at all.

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Some of you really resemble a baying mob.

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Honestly, don't feel so insecure or threatened. Thorough debate is all good and anyone responding to you is just offering a counter-argument to your own opinion (which does often happen to be of a contentious nature). It's a discussion forum and you're more than welcome here. Nobody's out to get you.

Well, except for that Geysir fellow. He definitely has it in for you.

Stutts you say he is ours to lose like geysir but what do the northerners say when they have players like Gibson wilson mcclean etc playing for them at underage level?

I do have to say tho towk is a breath of fresh air and anyone I know would share very similar views - generally. He has brought a smack of realism to the forum probably why he is getting dealt with a bit heavy handed....a baying mob might be a bit extreme though.

Towk do you go to home games?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Stutts you say he is ours to lose like geysir but what do the northerners say when they have players like Gibson wilson mcclean etc playing for them at underage level?

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I imagine they have their own equivalent of Paul O'Shea - a Paul Frazer perhaps - who remarks that such players are "wee turncoats waiting to happen".

I wasnt asking literally cd. Even if you were just looking for an easy in to respond with that :D

You set 'em up, I knock 'em down :)

Seriously, I'm not sure what 'dose of realism' you're referring to. It's hardly a surprise to anyone who's kept an eye on these things over time that players often have split loyalties. If anything, TOWK's overreaction to Grealish's comments sticks out because it's so unusual around here. When Shane Lowry opted to compete for Australia, I can't remember anybody here saying anything but good luck to him. The wee turncoat.

No thats not what I'm getting at.

What im saying is those players deep down harbour a desire if the chance comes and they are good enough to play for ireland. So I'm asking do you think they say "he is ours to lose", I doubt it very much.

I don't think it's that cut and dried either. Danny Kearns, for instance, cut his ties with Northern Ireland even though he might never be good enough to play for Ireland. Similarly, the McEleney brothers threw in their lot with Northern Ireland even though they were still in and around underage Ireland squads and are young enough to improve. I wouldn't say "he's ours to lose" but certainly I think when players come through the ranks with us they are a bit more likely to stay put than players in a similar situation at Northern Ireland. The only player who's been through the age groups that we've really "lost" to a better country is Michael Keane, and there were possibly familial pressures in there too with his brother on the England side.

Noel King had plans for Paddy McEleney and was on the phone asking for him to reconsider his switch to the IFA, so it's not as if they'll touch "certified dead wood" only. Not that I think there's a moral problem with players in demand legally deciding for themselves who they'd rather represent, but IFA supporters often like to try and disingenuously claim the suspect moral high ground on this, as if their association is distinct from all others in sacrificing its own self-interests through an adherence to some imagined code of virtues whereby it selects only players in which other associations have no known interest. This self-erected illusion helps validate, for them at least, their sorry indulgence in victimhood.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Stutts you say he is ours to lose like geysir but what do the northerners say when they have players like Gibson wilson mcclean etc playing for them at underage level?

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Hey, not all northerners are "them", y'know. :)

Anyhow, where were we? Yes, NI fans; they bleat and moan and they play the victim. They deny responsibility and they stick their heads in the sand. Jack Grealish doesn't select himself. Noel King selects Jack Grealish.

Power of selection ultimately remains in the hands of the association. With regard to the IFA, no association need let itself be "strung along" by any eligible player, or however it is that association and its supporters like to frame the circumstances whereby a young nationalist player who grows up north of the border might end up playing in the IFA's youth squads yet still harbour ambitions of playing for Ireland. Not that the relationship between player and association is beneficial on a one-way basis only anyhow - associations also get return from the players they select - but if the IFA doubt their players' commitment, they can always ask them for clarification. If they're happy enough to continue selecting uncertain players or players who've already expressed that their ultimate aspiration would be to play for Ireland if given the opportunity, that's their prerogative. If the player lies, that's admittedly poor form. There are plenty of players in the under-age NI set-up, however, who identify with ourselves in terms of support and NI youth coaches are well aware of this. These players don't even have to lie yet the IFA are delighted to still have them available for selection, so it's a bit much for them to cry foul when these players later legally desert and can follow through on their declared intentions by virtue regulations we all knew existed in the first place.

If Grealish did come out and say he was happy to give his all for us in proud recognition of his Irish heritage but that he ultimately aspired to play for England, the land of his birth, if that opportunity ever arose, can we be certain that Noel King would stop selecting him? Would we expect Noel King to refrain from selecting him? As it stands, we know that Grealish could potentially, although seemingly unlikely, entertain the notion of playing for England if he was to no longer be enjoying playing for us at some point in the future. With that knowledge, the choice of whether or not to continue selecting him would still rest in our hands. If the choice rested with me, I'd continue in a professional manner by selecting him. If he later switched to England down the line, so be it. He's a dual national, he hasn't lied to anyone and he's been enriching our under-age set-up since the age of 14, so it's not as if it's been all take on his part. There was no obligation on my part to continue selecting him, but I did, knowledgeable of the risk. I'm happy to put my faith in Noel King.

Sorry, by the way, Mick Doyle devotees! I understand y'all must be absolutely snapping at the ignorance of the turn his thread has taken.

He'll be turning in his grave Danny.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...4,203,200_.jpg

I think on balance Grealish is more likely to stay with us. We hold the aces. That's what I'm trying to say Paul.

I also agree with most of what TOWK says on most things. That's got nothing to do with it. He actually hasn't brought much here in the way of new opinion. People have been frustrated by Keane for years. There was a couple of years of hysteria over James McCarthy. His views on dropping Keane or being upset with joint heritage footballers not being able to recite Ulysses in Irish is hardly revolutionary.

It's his belligerent and antagonistic manner that bugs me. If you read any of my posts either criticising him, thanking him or joining in with him you'll realise that. If you think bad manners is a breath of fresh air it says more about you than me.

For ages now you've been flying some flag or other from some higher place about realism. You should put it down.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Stutts you say he is ours to lose like geysir but what do the northerners say when they have players like Gibson wilson mcclean etc playing for them at underage level?

I do have to say tho towk is a breath of fresh air and anyone I know would share very similar views - generally. He has brought a smack of realism to the forum probably why he is getting dealt with a bit heavy handed....a baying mob might be a bit extreme though.

Towk do you go to home games?

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Yes, I go to the majority of home games, work and college allowing.

I was going to go to Euro 2012 with my brother and his mates but I started going out with a girl I liked in late May so I decided to stay home. That decision paid off in spades as I was subsequently dumped on my birthday - the day of the first semi-final.

...and that's what you get for letting your heart lead your head.

Stutts will make you a profile on Match.com for a small price. (Interesting trades considered.) Just tell him all your likes/dislikes, hobbies and earning potential. The only problem is once he is done adding and subtracting, sometimes another foot.ie member comes up as your perfect match. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

I was going to go to Euro 2012 with my brother and his mates but I started going out with a girl I liked in late May so I decided to stay home. That decision paid off in spades as I was subsequently dumped on my birthday - the day of the first semi-final.

...and that's what you get for letting your heart lead your head.

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Ok... Adrian Mole!!! That's a bit more than what we're used to here.

I like the impact you've had on the forum though.

Pages 1-3 were absolute comedy, and should go down in foot.ie folklore.

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Originally Posted by Crosby87

Stutts will make you a profile on Match.com for a small price. (Interesting trades considered.) Just tell him all your likes/dislikes, hobbies and earning potential. The only problem is once he is done adding and subtracting, sometimes another foot.ie member comes up as your perfect match. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)

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this is the guy you need to talk about that: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...-hack-okcupid/

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Yes, I go to the majority of home games, work and college allowing.

I was going to go to Euro 2012 with my brother and his mates but I started going out with a girl I liked in late May so I decided to stay home. That decision paid off in spades as I was subsequently dumped on my birthday - the day of the first semi-final.

...and that's what you get for letting your heart lead your head.

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I assumed, gathered so actually, you make sense on most things, and a view shared by most who go to games. Your(Ireland international) football should lead your head and your heart, never a woman or anything else, ah the innocence and naivety of youth.

No Stutts, its not, his views are similar to SksStu, me and you and thats about it. Bad manners on a bloody forum, would ye get a life.

Well said peepee. Even if you are still wrong about how contracting works :P

Paul wheeling out the old "most people who go to games" chestnut again. Classic stuff.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Paul wheeling out the old "most people who go to games" chestnut again. Classic stuff.

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most people, who go to games, and are not on foot.ie, and post on ybig, and go to away games, and have mates who do the same, and have the same opinions as POS and TOWK, and so forth.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

No Stutts, it's not

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it's not what? His manner that bugs me? It is. And yours.

His opinions are not the same as everyone else here. That was i was referring to, and so everyone is jumping in and disagreeing with him broadly.

Ye have all missed the point, its nothing to do with those who go to games etc, its just those who dont post on foot.ie...:D And go to home games or away games or general interest in irish football etc :P

As i said bad manners on an internet forum, you need to get out a bit more ;-)

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Pages 1-3 were absolute comedy, and should go down in foot.ie folklore.

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I don't see anything remotely funny about it.

No other country, not just England, would tolerate what he had to put up with in the second half of the Trapattoni era.

Several cases of mistaken identity.
Stuff constantly leaking to the press about the slapstick nature of the way Trapattoni was approaching the job.
The belligerence and complete lack of respect shown towards players like Kevin Foley, Steven Reid and Andy Reid.

Andy Reid. People on here making wisecracks about his weight and professionalism. That's all well and good, and sometimes amusing but when did you ever hear Andy Reid make derogatory remarks about Trapattoni? Never. The lad kept what happened between himself and Trapattoni to himself and I credit him for being the bigger man. Contrast that attitude with Trapattoni.

Several players have went on record as saying that the blow-up shouldn't have happened and that Trapattoni was out of order.

A lot of this seems to get blown by the wayside because it's just us, little Irelanders. What the harm?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

His opinions are not the same as everyone else here.

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No, the majority of his opinions are the same, and have been discussed here before, and agreed upon. Very little of what he has said hasn't been said before

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

That was i was referring to, and so everyone is jumping in and disagreeing with him broadly.

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Actually, everyone is disagreeing with specific points he has made, without backing them up with evidence, and proving him wrong

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Ye have all missed the point, its nothing to do with those who go to games etc, its just those who dont post on foot.ie...:D And go to home games or away games or general interest in irish football etc :P

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then don't keep using it to validate your opinions

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

As i said bad manners on an internet forum, you need to get out a bit more ;-)

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most posters have respect for one another and their opinions (attack the post not the poster, etc) and don't appreciate anyone stepping out of line

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

The lad kept what happened between himself and Trapattoni to himself and I credit him for being the bigger man

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I think that was the problem.

You obviously think Trap treated the players appallingly. I think he treated them as professionals. His comments about Stephen Reid were stupid and somewhat misinformed, but he's generally been vindicated by the fact Reid has barely put together a run of games since. On Andy Reid, he was spot on, a man who wasted his talent and is only belatedly realising some of that potential in his mid-thirties. Kevin Foley, he got dropped from a squad at the last minute. It's unfortunate, but sometimes coaches have to make these decisions, and Foley acted like a spoiled brat about it and his career has nosedived since. Darron Gibson was unprofessional in his dealings with Trap, Shane Long has been unprofessional in his public comments about managers. Trap didn't cause these players' problems.

Well said Tets.

Paul knows this full well though. He likes TOWK because he winds up several of those here he has less respect for. That's my suspicion anyway. I've said umpteen times here already that when he uses a spurious means of supporting an argument and fails to accept it when he's been called, that's what irks me and I consider it bad form. I couldn't give a hoot whether he says please or pardon or holds his cutlery the right way.


Anyway, there were far too many misunderstandings and miscommunications during the Trap era. Some of it certainly was Trap's fault, some of it the FAI's and some of it the players'.

I couldn't give a hoot if Kevin Foley's feelings were hurt. Trap made a tough decision, it happens. I think his freezing out of Andy Reid was a terrible misjudgment.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

No, the majority of his opinions are the same, and have been discussed here before, and agreed upon. Very little of what he has said hasn't been said before

Actually, everyone is disagreeing with specific points he has made, without backing them up with evidence, and proving him wrong

then don't keep using it to validate your opinions

most posters have respect for one another and their opinions (attack the post not the poster, etc) and don't appreciate anyone stepping out of line

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When have I ever attacked a poster? I have never said anything to anyone that hasn't ever been directed at me. There is one poster in particular that makes a habit out of belittling every contribution I make - even off topic - but I have never responded with anything remotely out of hand.

I honestly don't understand why the respect thing is relevant. I have a basic courtesy towards practically every other poster on the site because they have been here longer than me and I am "the new guy". Several times I have complimented several users - Stutts in particular - because I respect their opinions.

The only thing I feel I should apologise for is being too abrasive and assertive in my opinion, but that's all it is - an opinion.

Honestly the impression I get sometimes is that I should just retract everything I say and fall in line with everyone else. Not something I have ever commanded anyone else to do.

Would that make people happy? Because I will gladly do it; but it won't be what I really believe.

There is no need for accusations like that and frankly I think it's a little out of line but hey, it's your prerogative and you're entitled to say it.

I thought you were supposed to be off studying for exams?

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I thought you were supposed to be off studying for exams?

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It was a Microsoft Excel assignment and Business Law project. The former has been rescheduled and I handed the latter in already.

TOWK; I think the issue is with your selective picking and choosing of which points to respond to, along with your habitual failure to back up particular claims you make. Rather than admitting any weakness in your argument and possible strength in some other posters' counter-arguments when you're pulled up on something, you tend to just brush matters under the carpet and continue trotting out the same lines over and over. Obviously, there's no obligation upon you to respond to all points raised on an internet forum, but, when it is evident that you have the time to do so because you re-peddle challenged opinions as if they're self-evidently factual, it's common courtesy to at least acknowledge valid counter-arguments and that you may not always be right. In that sense, your manner is mildly ignorant. That's what Tets means when he talks of having respect for other posters and their opinions and what Stutts means when he talks about forum ettiquete, manners or whatever.

As for geysir, he's just winding you up because your defensiveness makes you so easy to wind up. Chill out. :)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

TOWK; I think the issue is with your selective picking and choosing of which points to respond to, along with your habitual failure to back up particular claims you make. Rather than admitting any weakness in your argument and possible strength in some other posters' counter-arguments when you're pulled up on something, you tend to just brush matters under the carpet and continue trotting out the same lines over and over. Obviously, there's no obligation upon you to respond to all points raised on an internet forum, but, when it is evident that you have the time to do so because you re-peddle challenged opinions as if they're self-evidently factual, it's common courtesy to at least acknowledge valid counter-arguments and that you may not always be right. In that sense, your manner is mildly ignorant. That's what Tets means when he talks of having respect for other posters and their opinions and what Stutts means when he talks about forum ettiquete, manners or whatever.

As for geysir, he's just winding you up because your defensiveness makes you so easy to wind up. Chill out. :)

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I have opinions that differ to some people, Danny. It's as simple as that. I think the two main things that people challenge me on... well three if you count McGeady... are interpretations of quotes.

I don't think I am being selective. Maybe I am too abrasive or assertive in my interpretations.

It's not malicious, trust me!

I think debate like this is healthy on a forum and it adds life to it.

Certainly. It's all good. I'm not saying you have to have the same opinions as everyone else; just that it's only rational and decent to accept the strength in others' arguments and to back up your claims when pulled up on them.

Tets im all for attacking neither the post or the poster, i'm for reasoned debate.

Perhaps it just didnt irritate me but I thought towk has been fair minded, and Stutts it has nothing to do with having less respect for certain members, i have equal disrespect for you all of you :P Seriously though it's just because to me he talks sense, something I don't see a lot of on here very often. He was a bit OTT on RK, and I don't agree with all his points but generally I find him well informed, realistic and to the point - even if the points are sometimes long. I find it refreshing as said earlier because its what I encounter everywhere but on foot.ie!!

BUt as towk said if we all jumped in line it would be rather boring, and no one should do that.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I find it refreshing as said earlier because its what I encounter everywhere but on foot.ie!!.

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Why are you even here? You appear to absolutely hate it.

POS you have thousands of posts and I can only presume you've read thousands of threads. Yet you still think it's right on to just talk about posters like we've some kind of dullard hivemind, even though there are literally millions of posts just a click away that disprove that - millions of posts that show the wide variety of disparate opinion on here.

You're either chatting weak, weak sauce or betraying the fact you couldn't be arsed reading anything.

The debate on here tends to be reasoned, well intentioned and articulate. Compared to most football forum cesspits, this place is an oasis.

FOOT.IE AND PROUD BABY!

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Why are you even here? You appear to absolutely hate it.

POS you have thousands of posts and I can only presume you've read thousands of threads. Yet you still think it's right on to just talk about posters like we've some kind of dullard hivemind, even though there are literally millions of posts just a click away that disprove that - millions of posts that show the wide variety of disparate opinion on here.

You're either chatting weak, weak sauce or betraying the fact you couldn't be arsed reading anything.

The debate on here tends to be reasoned, well intentioned and articulate. Compared to most football forum cesspits, this place is an oasis.

FOOT.IE AND PROUD BABY!

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ALL THE WAY TO TERMONBARRY BABY YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHHHHHHhHHHHH!!!

Will you chaps answer me on a question i have been getting for 2 weeks for some reason? I'm being serious. Why is St. Patricks Day not a "big deal" in Ireland? I have me own idea but i want to take it to the experts.

It is a big day.thankfully though you didn't call it st patty's day.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Perhaps it just didnt irritate me but I thought towk has been fair minded.... Seriously though it's just because to me he talks sense, something I don't see a lot of on here very often. He was a bit OTT on RK, and I don't agree with all his points but generally I find him well informed, realistic and to the point - even if the points are sometimes long. I find it refreshing as said earlier because its what I encounter everywhere but on foot.ie!!

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Don't you think it slightly ignorant and disingenuous for someone whose sometimes-suspect arguments are challenged with valid arguments to just duck their head in the sand and don a veneer of infallibility, as if nothing else was worthy of even consideration? It's a childish, if not mildly insulting, way to exchange ideas.

What is refreshing about hearing the same thing you hear everywhere else over and over again? Is there anything enriching about that? I usually find it refreshing when I hear and engage with diversity of opinion - I learn more that way - and there's plenty of it on here.

What's the point.