ya i did as a certain element of criteria which will aid our endeavours in getting into the elite.You then said "if your going to go up on a website".-Stupid Comment there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Printable View
ya i did as a certain element of criteria which will aid our endeavours in getting into the elite.You then said "if your going to go up on a website".-Stupid Comment there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Can you highlight one LOI season where this hasn't been the case? My own personal view is that the competence levels of chairmen and administrative staff at the various league clubs dictate that a financial crisis is needed here and there for anything to done (correctly).Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
Apart from Shels (and I'm not convinced they'll go pop) who else are you suggesting could be likely to go belly-up between now and next season ?Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
There's a huge difference between being in financial trouble, and actually going out of existence.
UCD for one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
A lot of people are saying "If such and such wins the 1st Division it's a disgrace we won't get promoted". If the process is followed to the letter then the difference between first and second place in the 1st Division this season should have a negligable impact.
Have the clubs been given a more detailed breakdown of the criteria than the wishey washey stuff that we see from the website? What's a preferable governance structure for example?
Not talking about one particular club but one particular season when there hasn't been a club facing a financial disaster. Financial crisis and the like are all too commonplace in the league and, looking from the outside-in, clubs seem to be need them to get anything done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Just as a matter of interest, is UCD football club a separate entity from the college? And if not, would UCD football club be able to support itself as a separate entity?
Preferable governance structure is, as you point out, very subjective - if that's what you mean by "the wishey washey stuff" :-)
It's officially a college society I think. It's basically self sustaining though. It's responsible for raising its own funds and contrary to popular belief UCD AFC pays the college fees for the scholarship players, not the tax payers.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Well the term is just "governance structure" but I asked what do they consider preferable? That's the kind of subjective ambiguous or "wishey washey" stuff I'm on about.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Yes the clubs have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
They were given it at a seminar on September 7th and now have till the end of October to get their information together to demonstrate how they satisfy the various crtieria.
Corporate governance is by definition wishey-washey. You could probably ask ten experts in the field of corporate governance and get ten different definitions. I think what the FAI is suggesting is that accountable and transparent structures need to be put in place to avoid clubs going bust. For instance, you and many other supporters of other league clubs do not know the true financial picture of your club. I'd be surprise that the football club, if it is classified as a society, doesn't get a share of society funding that is allocated by the college each year. I doubt also that ground maintenance is paid by the club but rather by the college, or that the club pays rent to the college for use of Belfield Pk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
where the hell do they find that money?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Sponsorship, gate receipts, half time draw tickets, superleague fees, transfer fees (I think Alan Cawley, Pat Sullivan and Robbie Martin must have all gone for €50k combined), tv money, prize money, there's an annual golf event and dinner to raise money for the scholarship fund too.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsFans
UCD run a tight ship, we only spend what we have, hence no large transfer fees, wages and trophies. Players have no trouble being paid and we're bang up to date with the revenue too.
On the mention of scholarships, how is Ger O'Callaghan settling in? Has he played for you yet? He's a good kid & hope he does well.
I presume so the players are part-time. Any ideas what the average wage at UCD is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
no large transfer fees....Ye didnt have to pay a penny when ye took John Gaffney from us a few seasons ago.He was a great player but he returned to Sligo as if he never played football before in his life....thanks UCD;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
So your paying players + the majority of your squads college fees, which is €2-3,000 a pop?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Im sorry to ask but how does the club system work in the republic below the 1st division, up here we have 3 leagues then its regionalised does regionalisation of the league happen in ROI. Is there any reasonably big clubs ie club history that play in these leagues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
If UCD are treated like any other college course/school by having to pay for their own scholars, does that mean they're also treated the same as any other college school/course* in terms of not having to pay for the use/upkeep of their facilities ? Do UCD also receive a grant from the college, like oher courses/schools ? If so - scholarships would be more than possible due to reduced costs elsewhere.
*except those few colleges that have gone mad on the cost-centred accounting.
Dunno what the standard wage at UCD is. I think scholarship players get €100-200 a week. Every player either has another job or is scholarship so they're all part time. They train 3 times a week I think.
Steve, I'm confused by your questions. Do you mean UCD as in the club or the college? I'm not sure who pays for the upkeep of the stadium. UCD will very soon move into the Belfield Bowl stadium at the other end of the campus to share with the rugby club. I don't know if the clubs maintain it or the Department of Sport (in UCD) in general or what.
The LOI does not link directly into the pyramid below the First Division. Relegation out of the league can only happen by committee vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassa
It could be argued that UCD has an unfair advantage over other LOI clubs in that scholarships are tax exempt.
Waterford has a link up with WIT. I think Cork have a link up with UCC? Someone else said Bohs have a linkup with DCU. Nothing stopping other clubs from availing of a scholarship scheme.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
True, but the oppoprtunity has been there for every other club to get involved in a similar scheme - Waterford Utd recently launched a scholarship scheme with WIT - let's not penalise UCD for having a good idea - why don't Cork, Limerick, Galway etc.. link in with local 3rd level institutions?Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
EDIT: posted before PS pointed out that several other clubs do link up
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
When I say 'UCD' I'm refering to the club.
When i say 'the college' I mean the college.
My point was that whilst UCD paying their scholarships sounds expensive, a number of the other costs that EL clubs usually face (e.g. ground hire/upkeep) don't appear to be covered by the club, which means that the cost of scholarships is probably offset by cost savings elsewhere.
It could likewise be argued that Derry City has an unfair disadvantage versus all other EL clubs, as we are the only ones who have to pay tax on gate receipts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Swings and roundabouts....
true, but there are also quite a few clubs out there who benefit from preferential rates from local authorities etc. I would suggest that there are very few clubs who have to pay full commercial rates for their facilities. Does anyone know the breakdown of grants for example - how much is UCD getting towards the development of the Bowl in comparison to other clubs?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Obviously it is in the college's interest to have an EL team associated with the university, but equally so, it is in the interests of Waterford Corporation to have an EL team in Waterford and to have the RSC in more regular use than if it were kept for athletics alone. Therefore, WUFC get somewhat preferential treatment from the corporation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmac
That pretty much sums it up. People would have you believe that we're some exception who completely lives off tax payer's money but there are varying circumstances all over the league where someone is aided by a local authority or the likes.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
50% of the money is coming in the form of a capital grant from the Department of Sport (as in the government department). That's fair enough, it will host two clubs from two sports all year round. I think the clubs are coming up with the rest. Not sure how much the actual college are chipping in. There is a downside to the college owning our ground. UCD were supposed to have redeveloped Belfield Park years back but the college decided to put a research centre on the pitch instead. This has lead us to not being able to move forward and play in a ground receiving no investment. With the upcoming new league critera and the old licencing criteria this has been a hinderance.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmac
Funny how you heard it shortly after getting knocked out of the cup by us. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Battery Rover
What you, and others, are missing is that the Premier and First Divisions will cease to exist after this season. The new league is exactly that, a brand, spanking new league.
Winning the 1st will give Rovers (or Galway or Dundalk) x amount of points towards entry to the new league. Nothing more, nothing less.
KOH
It is entirely possible however, that the points allocation for off the field matters will coincidentally turn out to be such that the team who is in 13th place would have been in 12th if they had won the first division. Not that I'm suggesting this will be looked at before the off the field points are allocated.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
To whom it concerns (including our own staff), do yourselves a favour and leave Waterford United out of this. Once the criteria were announced, it was clear that the FAI want the Blues in next year's Premier Division. Our record over the last 4/5 years (worth 300 points) would have us in the Top 8. We won the First Division, then finished 6th, 5th and 8th in the Premier. [As an aside, we've finished ahead of Shamrock Rovers in each of the four seasons since we were promoted]. So for the Dundalk fan who said that nobody should complain if they were promoted and we were relegated, stop deluding yourself.
We've done everything that the FAI wanted off the field including ground improvements, building a second stand for next year, eliminating our debt, lowering our wages massively, developing a scholarship system with WIT and improving links greatly with local Junior and Schools leagues.
But the biggest giveaway of the FAI's intentions was when they said they wanted teams in every major population/geographic centre. That translates as "we want Waterford, Galway and Limerick in the Premier along with the other obvious candidates".
Limerick, unfortunately, have blown their chance for this season both on and off the field. Galway have a strong case, but it will depend on whether the FAI have the neck to boot Bray or UCD out. Dublin City's implosion, in my view, immediately handed Rovers promotion. I don't think Cobh would have been allowed up even if they had won the First Division. Dundalk have a strong case IF they win the First.
As for the existing Premier clubs, Sligo are guaranteed to stay up - they're challenging for Europe and their entire set-up is very impressive. Longford's record keeps them up too. I think it would be very harsh to boot UCD out and I personally think that Bray are most at risk, but there's a strong possibility all 11 clubs will stay up and be joined by Rovers.
The only potential spanner in the works for Waterford was if we finished miles behind everybody in 12th. That looked possible at one stage this season, but DC's exit and our recent improvement ruled this out.
See ye in the Premier Divison in 2007.
No they don't, at least not under the criteria as set out by the FAI. Their 4 year record is pretty bad, Rovers will rank ahead of them due to cup exploits no matter what happens at this stage and there's no way they'll make up the difference off the field.Quote:
Dundalk have a strong case IF they win the First.
As has been pointed out several times- winning the first division will get you a few extra points, which COULD mean the difference between promotion and relegation but almost certainly won't.
A fair few comments to post here! Have a root and find the one relating to you! :)
No it can't. The players are mostly students, so don't earn enough to pay any tax anyway. Another great cost-cutting measure! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I don't know for sure, but I think the likes of ground upkeep is paid by the college, and rent is minimal. But then, I don't think this differs hugely from grounds owned by, say, the local councils.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
We do receive a grant from the college, as far as I know, but I heard it amounted to about 8-10% of our turnover in the First Division; less in the Premier obviously.
Hasn't made the bench yet anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicme
How wishy-washy are they? Are marks awarded for "present"/"absent" or "good"/"bad"? Do marks go from, say, 10 down to 0 or from 8 down to 4? If you can get top marks or no marks, then the stuff about four-year history is really irrelevant as there's only 100 marks between about ten teams in the middle, which could easily be made up over 500 marks. (God, this is the greatest load of rubbish I've heard in my life when you actually type it...) In this case, Galway Harps' point about Dundalk's 4-year record holding them back is irrelevant. If the FAI want to (not saying that they do, but if), they could realistically promote or relegate any borderline club they want to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_T
You just said it again - mentioning a website as part of your way into the elit. Dodge is right, I'm afraid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor H
I'd know a reasonable amount about the financial workings of the club. The committee will answer any questions if we ask. I know our loss for 2005 and the amount we owe to Revenue, for example. I would agree with you that I don't think we pay rent and that we get a grant. Don't see anything wrong with it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I may have missed something along the line but how come that Shamrock Rovers aren't handicapped in any way for being homeless? Do they therefore get the benefit (assessment wise) of their landlords having good off the field facilities etc? Not trying to stir it but curious that away from the field of play I would have thought that would hinder their cause. That said there is no way that SRFC won't go up, even if they lose all their remaining games it would matter a jot to their inclusion in the superdooperpremiership next term.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galway Harps
Rovers could suffer for their record on licensing and for not having a ground of their own. However most of the points are for realistic plans etc as much as what's currently in place. Rovers still have the Tallaght thing- so while they may suffer a bit they won't in all likelihood be hit that hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The details are confidential to the clubs so while I've heard the gist of them I can't answer anymore than that. I didn't feel they were too wishy washy, some of it based directly on licensing compliance, some on figures like attendances, some on structures, like youth, some on plans - business plans, marketing plans etc.
I think most clubs will do reasonably well unless they are a total shambles off the field.
Fair enough.
Are they going to get released to the fans or the general public at any stage, before or after the tally? I think it's only fair that such an important decision be carried out in full view, not in a shady room in Merrion Square.
Or, as in the case of City, actively held-back by a local authority..... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Any progress on that recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I have no doubt that both Waterford and Rovers will be in the Premier Division next season. However, Rovers and Waterford's record over the seasons 2002/03 - 2005 (4 seasons) are almost identical. Both clubs score the same number of points for their league positions and FAI Cup records. But Rovers picked up a couple of points because of their European record in 2003. Also, Rovers run to the FAI Cup Semi-Final this season means that Rovers will outscore Waterford this season - unless Waterford move up another couple of positions in this seasons' Premier. Waterford will in all likelihood end up ranked 10th at the end of this season, but Rovers will be ranked 8th - even if they finish 3rd in the First Divison this season. If Rovers were to win the Cup and the First Division, they could even finish ranked 7th at the end of the campaign. What will do damage to Rovers though is their licensing record over the past few years (remember they operated without a licence in 2005) so they will lose points here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemovie
It is also likely that Sligo Rovers, Bray Wanderers and Galway United could outscore Waterford in the off-the-field criteria, which would mean that Waterford would then be ranked in 13th place and therefore form part of the new First Division next season. If Galway do get ranked in the top twelve this season, it will be at the expenses of either Sligo/Bray/Waterford with Bray currently ranked lower than the three of these. The team that finishes bottom of the Premier this season (Bray/Waterford) is in real danger of not being in the Premier next year.
Having said that, I still expect the 12 team Premier next year to feature all eleven teams that are currently in it, along with Shamrock Rovers. Galway United might just make it ahead of either Bray/Waterford, but I think the top ten currenlty in the Premier are certs. As for the rest of the teams currently in the First Division, I can't see any of them doing enough in the "off the field" criteria to make the top twleve - and that includes Dundalk winning the First Division.
Sorry if this is on another post but what will happen the following year
as regards promotion/relegation, or has that been decided yet.
If its being cut from a 12 to a 10 will there be no promotion, or will
bottom 2 get automatic relegation and 3rd last plays top of Div1
The document says 3 down and 1 up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash
Pete Mahon said in the latest edition of the College Tribune something like Tony McGuirk told someone he knows that Bray were given guarantees they'd be there and the Shamrock Rovers assistant manager told him something similar about themselves.
Pineapple is right, if the criteria are marked like say college exams where over 70% or 80% is a superhuman unachievable score and also that even mediocre efforts get you 20-30% automatically then it will be far harder for teams to make up the off field difference. But if it's working under the assumption that say Belfield = 0 in ground criteria and Tolka = 100% then clubs like UCD are in trouble.