NI support

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19/08/2006, 9:55 AM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speranza

It verifies your opinion to a certain extent but the way in which NI fans behave makes for a dim future for NI football. It is sad in this day and age that an activity such as going to a football match should be seen as one enjoyed by only one community. I will never lend my support to NI but I am sure there are fans like Steve who would be open to the idea, why should being British and proud be manifested via a football match.

I am incredibly proud to be from Derry and that is why I support City, in no way does my pride in being Irish come through at the Brandy. Can Windsor regulars not just find pride in their "country" rather than the UK?

What way do Northern Ireland fans behave that make for a dim future? Sectarianism has been removed form the games. To be totally honest there are few Union flags at games although I see no problem whatsoever in these being displayed. You say to find pride in our country (not sure why the word country is put in inverted commas, we are as much a country as anywhere else) rather than the UK but our country is part of the UK and to many the two go hand in hand. Just like Not Brazil has explained, he is proud to be British but also proud to be Irish. Personally I would say I am proud to be British and Northern Irish or an Ulsterman but that is just a personal preference. Why do people see it as wrong for us to show pride in what we are? We can fully respect and accept people's Irishness, why not respect and accept our Britishness?
19/08/2006, 12:57 PM
Gather round

Quote:

The last time I saw NI away supporters close up was here in Iceland a few years ago. Then there were a few hundred union jack clad gstq billy boys, looked even more farcical in a foreign context. Yesterday at the Finland game, the camera caught the away support many times, they looked kinda normal healthy football supporters.The change is phenonomal. Is this for real?

Without wishing to be too defensive, you are exaggerating (we didn't take hundreds to Iceland, and of those only a minority would have been jack-waving, if you're talking about the qualifying game for 2002). We lost 0-1, the Fermanagh fumbler throwing one in late in the second half. I'd say mildly eccentric rather than farcical, partic. since I imagine most Islanders aren't that bothered by the nuances of national icdentity in Northern Ireland. But there is less of a hardline unionist atmosphere at games now, which is welcome.

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Is there some avoidance about the question? Where have they all gone? Was there a collective unconcious decision to forgo this apparel and overt bigotry? did they run out of money? were they regarded as persona not grata inside the NI football supporters club? Were they photographed and banned? Did they just simply not turn up anymore? How did it happen?

I think most of 'them' are still there (given that crowds at our games are rising overall), but there's more internal criticism of their attitudes. So they've stopped treating games as a loyalist love-in. Hardly any have been directly excluded.

Quote:

As for GSTQ what a dirge, just my personal opinion, (and that of many others i'm sure judging by the number of players singing it!). Would be nice to change it for a unique NI sporting anthem - probably not going to happen though...

Agreed. Some personal modern-ish choices would be,

* Gloria- Van the Man's original garage anthem
* Alternative Ulster- the Rigid Digits
* Days of Pearly Spencer- about a wino in Ballymena
* Religious persuasion- Any White (heh, only joking)

Quote:

You are quite correct, in the past there was more Catholic fans. That was during the 80's when we were successful. As a passing note there was 10 times more sectarianism than there is now so the claim that this is what put Catholics off does not hold much credence, does it?

No...it was in the 60's and ealry 70's, when Sectarianism then reared it's ugly head and forced alot of Nationalists away

I can only remember back to the mid 70s NI games, so can't compare with the 60s, but there was certainly plenty of nationalist support for NI then, despite the violence. Of course my evidence is largely anecdotal, but it can be seen in the media of the time, especially around the 1982 World Cup. I lived in Dublin from 1980-84 and there was also plenty of support for NI as a second side, which you'd see rather less now. This reflects, in part, that the Republic never qualified for anything before 1988.

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Regardless, it is both churlish and naively simplistic to suggest that the catholics turned their back on Norn Iron solely or even primarily because of results. Little things like having to listen to hundreds of people openly abuse them/their religion on matchday, and players receiving death threats etc, might have had an even greater impact don't you think....?

I'll accept that it can sound churlish, but there was institutionalised sectarianism both generally and specifically around football, for years while nationalists continued to support NI. And during many of those years, in the 70s, NI were pretty mediocre. It's not simplistic to see relative success for the Republic as a clear factor for reduced support for NI.

Quote:

he called your post deranged, not you

It's still personal abuse, alas.

Quote:

A team that play in a Loyalist part of Belfast

I can see why Steve and others would criticise this, although threads passim suggest he was quite relaxed (or apathetic, maybe) about the team moving to, in effect, a loyalist part of Lisburn, rather than the Belfast centre site that most NI fans clearly prefer...

Quote:

Have our visits to the Brandywell not shown that the IFA were right in not letting you back in as it is not safe for Linfield to visit the Brandywell?

No, they've suggested that there is a current security issue. Which many Linfield fans are confident can be resolved by the clubs without it becoming a big political issue.

Quote:

I'd therefore like some sort of neutral anthem rather than GSTQ. I'd ideally like the NI Assembly to come up with it's own flag - one that again favours no side over the other, and that the people of Norn Iron can unite behind, rather than shake at each otehr to further fragment us. I'd even prefer the old Stormont flag to the Union flag, as at least it's local - but the bottom line is that that flag was designed to portray the 'Britishness' of Northern Ireland, and is therefore inherently one-sided. I'd like to see games played in a more neutral part of the province - which appears to be being addressed

Agreed to the anthem; something including the red hand; Ormeau Park is neutral even if the Maze/ Lisburn site isn't. We have the basis of a compromise...

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Having Nationalists alienated from the Northern Irish football team and instead giving their allegiances to the Republic, therefore, actively works against this !

You aren't comparing like with like. Support for a football team is important, voting in a border poll more important. So one won't directly follow form the other in many cases.

Quote:

It's noth the hardcore Republicans you need to worry about - it's the moderate nationalists like me, who accept the Union in the absence of a majority demand for an alternative, who are the group who could make or break the Union at soem point!

Hmm. I'm afraid that implies that you accept the democratic decision (majority support for partition) now, but might not in the future. Since you're personally likely to remain opposed to partition, and since the overall support for it is also unlikely to disappear, what are you suggesting? That you might become more politicised by Linfield fans arguing on a message board? Seems a bit over the top. BTW, I wouldn't express opinions like that anywhere near Walthamstow, Wycombe or the US immigration queue at Heathrow, Ye know how jumpy Inspector Knacker is here at the mo, he'd have ye in Belmarsh in no time...

Quote:

However - whilst the NI fanbase is so predominately Unionist/Loyalist, how likely is it that they would accept having an NI team that no longer exclusively reflects their identity ?

If Blatter axes anthems etc. completely, NI fans aren't going to sulk any more than Kazakhs, Israelis or anyone else I'd guess. And, inter alia, the NI team is represented by many nationalist players, coaches etc. even if fewer supporters.

Quote:

It verifies your opinion to a certain extent but the way in which NI fans behave makes for a dim future for NI football. It is sad in this day and age that an activity such as going to a football match should be seen as one enjoyed by only one community

Rather a roundabout argument there. You think it has dim future because you don't think it should exist. We are quite happy that it exists, ergo we disagree that per se it has a dim future. Really, if you think the argument is futile, why not just ignore it?
21/08/2006, 11:30 AM
Dassa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andyh

David, Chill mate - i don't think anyone was trying to be overly offensive - just making an observation, which i took as a compliment to the progress NI have made more than anything else. And as a NI fan i would far rather see people wearing the kit, singing songs about the team and waving the NI flag and the IFA flag, than the way things used to be.

As for GSTQ what a dirge, just my personal opinion, (and that of many others i'm sure judging by the number of players singing it!). Would be nice to change it for a unique NI sporting anthem - probably not going to happen though...

As a blockbooker couldnt agree more lad. NI definitely improving on the pitch and off.
21/08/2006, 12:04 PM
Speranza

I think we should all follow NI fans and find pride in the bigger political situation. If I am in Stuttgart then I plan to buy 1000 European flags to hand out to Ireland fans. :rolleyes:

NI fans waving the Union Jack just shows the fear they have of a United Ireland as they take every oppurtunity to declare they are British. Why not show pride in your six county "country" rather than the UK like the other home nations?
21/08/2006, 12:23 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speranza

I think we should all follow NI fans and find pride in the bigger political situation. If I am in Stuttgart then I plan to buy 1000 European flags to hand out to Ireland fans. :rolleyes:

NI fans waving the Union Jack just shows the fear they have of a United Ireland as they take every oppurtunity to declare they are British. Why not show pride in your six county "country" rather than the UK like the other home nations?

The problem in this country is that some people simply cannot accept others for what they are. Why should we hide what we are? I am British and very proud to be so. Those that are Irish and proud to be so, fair play to them and there is no problem in them displaying their Irishness so why is there a problem with me displaying my Britishness should I decide to do so. I would not be doing it to cause offence but to show my pride in my Britishness. Derry City had a tricolour in Gretna. I had no problem with that, fair play to them. Why can we all not accept each other for what we are?
21/08/2006, 1:36 PM
Krstic

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Derry City had A tricolour in Gretna. I had no problem with that, fair play to them. Why can we all not accept each other for what we are?

Tells it's own story really.
21/08/2006, 1:38 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

The problem in this country is that some people simply cannot accept others for what they are. Why should we hide what we are? I am British and very proud to be so. Those that are Irish and proud to be so, fair play to them and there is no problem in them displaying their Irishness so why is there a problem with me displaying my Britishness should I decide to do so. I would not be doing it to cause offence but to show my pride in my Britishness. Derry City had a tricolour in Gretna. I had no problem with that, fair play to them. Why can we all not accept each other for what we are?

You're consistently missing the point David.

Northern Ireland is a deeply divided society that contains 2 communities that have very different political, religious and cultural affinities. Non-one is saying either side doesn't have the right to proclaim and celebrate who they are (albeit in so far as it itsn't done to goad or 'do-down' the other). The issue is when you have official organisations that are trying to represent NI as a whole, but then dress themselves up solely in one or other communities symbolism. As a result they do not and cannot claim to represent NI as a whole.

Take countries like Canada and Belgium, which have 2 very different political, cultural, and most obviously linguistic communities. They have societal splits that have brought their country to the verge of fragmentation numerous times in the past, but they have had to come up with a working arrangement to keep everyone on-board and working together for the colective good. Part of that is to treat both sides as equal. The solution wasn't, for example, to dress national bodies like football teams up in the symbolism of only one side or the other. You can wheel out the whole 'Nationalists don't want the north to work' notion - but there are plenty of nationalists who are sensible enough to understand that a United Ireland is someway off, and that we all have to come up with some way of eating, sleeping and working in peace together in the meantime.

Would you be happy if the Northern Irish team used exclusively Catholic/Nationalist/Irish symbolism ? And please don't hide behind the whole 'official' red herrinng to justify if you wouldn't.

So David - the problem isn't anyone trying to stop you being British. The problem is you wanting to give the Northern Irish team an exclusively British identity - which will inherently alienate the almost 50% of the population who do not share your particular identity.

And why is it so crucial to your sense of Britishness to insist that the NI team can't have neutral symbolism anyway ? Do you wear Union Flag ties, shirts, trousers and a bowler hat into work every day, for example ?? Identity is a state of mind - the Northern Irish team singing 'Danny Boy' or whatever for an anthem would only make you less British if you somehow convinced yourself that it did. Just like England adopting 'Jerusalem' as their anthem wouldn't make the English any less British.
21/08/2006, 1:43 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Derry City had a tricolour in Gretna. I had no problem with that, fair play to them. Why can we all not accept each other for what we are?

Well done David.

Out of the 3,000 Derry fans in attendance there was one tricolour. From the Dublin supporters club (the Scottish one has a saltire, btw). There were also a number of Polish and a Vietnamese flag.

That Tricolour is only brought to European games, where we are representing the Republic of Ireland. The same flag wasn't even on display at the home game against Gothenburg, as the owner asked fans on the City forum would it present a problem and a number (myself included) suggested it shouldn't be brought.

I'd love to see Linfield fans engage in such considerd debate over whether to bring their numerous Union flags to matches.... :rolleyes:
21/08/2006, 1:47 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

You're consistently missing the point David.

Northern Ireland is a deeply divided society that contains 2 communities that have very different political, religious and cultural affinities. Non-one is saying either side doesn't have the right to proclaim and celebrate who they are (albeit in so far as it itsn't done to goad or 'do-down' the other). The issue is when you have official organisations that are trying to represent NI as a whole, but then dress themselves up solely in one or other communities symbolism. As a result they do not and cannot claim to represent NI as a whole.

Take countries like Canada and Belgium, which have 2 very different political, cultural, and most obviously linguistic communities. They have societal splits that have brought their country to the verge of fragmentation numerous times in the past, but they have had to come up with a working arrangement to keep everyone on-board and working together for the colective good. Part of that is to treat both sides as equal. The solution wasn't, for example, to dress national bodies like football teams up in the symbolism of only one side or the other. You can wheel out the whole 'Nationalists don't want the north to work' notion - but there are plenty of nationalists who are sensible enough to understand that a United Ireland is someway off, and that we all have to come up with some way of eating, sleeping and working in peace together in the meantime.

Would you be happy if the Northern Irish team used exclusively Catholic/Nationalist/Irish symbolism ? And please don't hide behind the whole 'official' red herrinng to justify if you wouldn't.

So David - the problem isn't anyone trying to stop you being British. The problem is you wanting to give the Northern Irish team an exclusively British identity - which will inherently alienate the almost 50% of the population who do not share your particular identity.

And why is it so crucial to your sense of Britishness to insist that the NI team can't have neutral symbolism anyway ? Do you wear Union Flag ties, shirts, trousers and a bowler hat into work every day, for example ?? Identity is a state of mind - the Northern Irish team singing 'Danny Boy' or whatever for an anthem would only make you less British if you somehow convinced yourself that it did. Just like England adopting 'Jerusalem' as their anthem wouldn't make the English any less British.

Think we are going to have to agree to differ on this one. A few points though. I personally do not bring a Union flag to any game. However all I am saying is that I see no wrong in doing so just like I see no wrong in Derry City supporters bringing a tricolour to Gretna game. There just seems to be something against displaying Britishness yet no such problem with Irishness. For example I was listening to Talkback on Radio Ulster earlier and there was a thing on about the ireland rugby team playing in Belfast shortly. When they play in Dublin, there is Irelands Call played for the team, the visitor's national anthem and also the Soldiers Song for the host country but in case of causing offence to anyone GSTQ will not be played when they play in Belfast, just Ireland's Call. It is almost like it is a crime to display any Britishness.
21/08/2006, 1:48 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Well done David.

Out of the 3,000 Derry fans in attendance there was one tricolour. From the Dublin supporters club (the Scottish one has a saltire, btw). There were also a number of Polish and a Vietnamese flag.

That Tricolour is only brought to European games, where we are representing the Republic of Ireland. The same flag wasn't even on display at the home game against Gothenburg, as the owner asked fans on the City forum would it present a problem and a number (myself included) suggested it shouldn't be brought.

I'd love to see Linfield fans engage in such considerd debate over whether to bring their numerous Union flags to matches.... :rolleyes:

I was not criticising the displaying of this flag, merely pointing out that it was displayed and was prominent on television and asking for a bit of parity.
21/08/2006, 2:30 PM
Dassa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speranza

I think we should all follow NI fans and find pride in the bigger political situation. If I am in Stuttgart then I plan to buy 1000 European flags to hand out to Ireland fans. :rolleyes:

NI fans waving the Union Jack just shows the fear they have of a United Ireland as they take every oppurtunity to declare they are British. Why not show pride in your six county "country" rather than the UK like the other home nations?

WE do show Pride in our COUNTRY and if you were at a match you would see very little sign of UJ's the odd one but not even close to what there used to be. I am proud to be N Irish like most NI fans and have no interest in bringing a UJ to any game of football.
21/08/2006, 2:37 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Think we are going to have to agree to differ on this one. A few points though. I personally do not bring a Union flag to any game. However all I am saying is that I see no wrong in doing so just like I see no wrong in Derry City supporters bringing a tricolour to Gretna game. There just seems to be something against displaying Britishness yet no such problem with Irishness. For example I was listening to Talkback on Radio Ulster earlier and there was a thing on about the ireland rugby team playing in Belfast shortly. When they play in Dublin, there is Irelands Call played for the team, the visitor's national anthem and also the Soldiers Song for the host country but in case of causing offence to anyone GSTQ will not be played when they play in Belfast, just Ireland's Call. It is almost like it is a crime to display any Britishness.

It would also be 'a crime' to play Amhran na bhFiann in Belfast though ! So playing neither a British nor an Irish anthem seems perfectly sensible and reasonable to me ! Seems even the rugby heads buy intno the perfectly sensible principle of using neither side's symbolism exclusively when playing in the north - it's just the IFA who don't get it.

Your Derry City tricolour observation is spurious, as we are not the official representatives of the province etc. We're not even the sole or official representatives of the City, ffs, as there's another team in senior football here. There would be a big difference, for example, in an ordinary car driving around with a tricolour on it, versus a PSNI car doing the same. You're grasping at straws with this whole example David.

You want teams representing Northern Ireland to be dressed up in British symbolism. I want them to be dressed up in neither British nor Irish symbolism. I'll leave it to everyone else on here to decide which is the more considerate and reasonable request for the future of Northern Ireland......
21/08/2006, 2:46 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

It would also be 'a crime' to play Amhran na bhFiann in Belfast though ! So playing neither a British nor an Irish anthem seems perfectly sensible and reasonable to me ! Seems even the rugby heads buy intno the perfectly sensible principle of using neither side's symbolism exclusively when playing in the north - it's just the IFA who don't get it.

Your Derry City tricolour observation is spurious, as we are not the official representatives of the province etc. We're not even the sole or official representatives of the City, ffs, as there's another team in senior football here. There would be a big difference, for example, in an ordinary car driving around with a tricolour on it, versus a PSNI car doing the same. You're grasping at straws with this whole example David.

You want teams representing Northern Ireland to be dressed up in British symbolism. I want them to be dressed up in neither British nor Irish symbolism. I'll leave it to everyone else on here to decide which is the more considerate and reasonable request for the future of Northern Ireland......

It's not a crime to play the Soldiers Song in Belfast as far as I am aware. The fact is that Northern Ireland is British. Some people may not like that but it is the case. As I have said before it is those that take offence at flags that have the problem in my opinion, not those that display them. I habve no problem whatsoever in respecting peoples Irishness, why can others not do me the same courtesy with my nationality? Why should Northern Ireland be the only country in the world demonised for being patriotic and displaying their nationality at an international game. It is called respect. If I respect you and others, please do me the same courtesy. And out of interest the Union Flag is permanently on display at Windsor Park, what is the problem with displaying our flag?
21/08/2006, 4:04 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speranza

Why not show pride in your six county "country" rather than the UK like the other home nations?

The vast majority Northern Ireland fans do. Union Flags are far outnumbered by Northern Ireland flags, IFA crest related flags and by simple green and white flags nowadays.

A "Sea Of Green" initiative by supporters has helped create a "Greener" environment.:)
21/08/2006, 5:23 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

It's not a crime to play the Soldiers Song in Belfast as far as I am aware. The fact is that Northern Ireland is British. Some people may not like that but it is the case. As I have said before it is those that take offence at flags that have the problem in my opinion, not those that display them. I habve no problem whatsoever in respecting peoples Irishness, why can others not do me the same courtesy with my nationality? Why should Northern Ireland be the only country in the world demonised for being patriotic and displaying their nationality at an international game. It is called respect. If I respect you and others, please do me the same courtesy. And out of interest the Union Flag is permanently on display at Windsor Park, what is the problem with displaying our flag?

* Gives up through extreme headache brought-on by banging head against wall......*
21/08/2006, 6:40 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

* Gives up through extreme headache brought-on by banging head against wall......*

So Derry City, who are apparently welcoming to all according to other threads are fine to display a tricolour at their game yet Northern Ireland fans should not display a Union Flag at their games because we live in a "divided society? And of course Londonderry is a city that we should all look up to for its cultural diversity and is symbolic of how both communities can live side by side.
21/08/2006, 7:12 PM
Schwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

So Derry City, who are apparently welcoming to all according to other threads are fine to display a tricolour at their game yet Northern Ireland fans should not display a Union Flag at their games because we live in a "divided society? And of course Londonderry is a city that we should all look up to for its cultural diversity and is symbolic of how both communities can live side by side.

There is no NI flag or song that�s not claimed by any side that would work?

Obviously the positions are a bit locked on the British/Irish issue so there might be better to look at what common grounds there is?

How are the English handling the British/English issue...?
21/08/2006, 7:18 PM
Speranza

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

And of course Londonderry is a city that we should all look up to for its cultural diversity and is symbolic of how both communities can live side by side.

It is unreal that a resident of Belfast can even attempt to abuse Derry. Despite my hatred of Belfast I will not berate the place but just point out that for the most part the two communities in Derry live peacefully side by side.
21/08/2006, 10:21 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speranza

It is unreal that a resident of Belfast can even attempt to abuse Derry. Despite my hatred of Belfast I will not berate the place but just point out that for the most part the two communities in Derry live peacefully side by side.

Not the perception that people outside the city have and certainly not how Protestants that I know from Londonderry feel but my point was that surely a tricolour at your game alienates those from the Unionist community that may attend Derry games in the same way that a Union Flag would do to Nationalists at Northern Ireland games if you use the Derry City logic.
22/08/2006, 1:15 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Not the perception that people outside the city have and certainly not how Protestants that I know from Londonderry feel but my point was that surely a tricolour at your game alienates those from the Unionist community that may attend Derry games in the same way that a Union Flag would do to Nationalists at Northern Ireland games if you use the Derry City logic.

Look David - I really don't know if you're genuinely thick, or if you just pretend to be to serve your purposes.

Derry City is not the representative team of Northern Ireland. Nor is it even the representative team of the city of Derry, ffs, as there is another senior football club in the city.

Conversely, Northern Ireland is the reprersentative team of the province. Not just your little Loyalist/Unionist part of the province, but ALL of it.

As I said above, it's like comparing a private vehcile or small-company car driving round NI with a tricolour out the window, and a PSNI vheicle doing the same. There is clearly a massive dfifference, but you're either too simple or too bloody-minded to see it.

Now, where did I leave the headache pills. Denting the shape of my forehead onto the wall is really starting to bite....
22/08/2006, 1:19 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Not the perception that people outside the city have and certainly not how Protestants that I know from Londonderry feel but my point was that surely a tricolour at your game alienates those from the Unionist community that may attend Derry games in the same way that a Union Flag would do to Nationalists at Northern Ireland games if you use the Derry City logic.

Let's compare statistics over the last 40 years and see whether Derry or Belfast has had the more inter-communal strife/violence shall we.....? :rolleyes:

I'll wager there hasn't been a single year where Derry has trumped Belfast - even after allowing for difference in population.
22/08/2006, 7:04 AM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Let's compare statistics over the last 40 years and see whether Derry or Belfast has had the more inter-communal strife/violence shall we.....? :rolleyes:

I'll wager there hasn't been a single year where Derry has trumped Belfast - even after allowing for difference in population.

Where have I argued differently? All I am saying is that Londonderry, like most of this country, is a divided city so using your logic a tricolour at your game would make one side of the community not go to your games.
22/08/2006, 7:08 AM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Look David - I really don't know if you're genuinely thick, or if you just pretend to be to serve your purposes.

Derry City is not the representative team of Northern Ireland. Nor is it even the representative team of the city of Derry, ffs, as there is another senior football club in the city.

Conversely, Northern Ireland is the reprersentative team of the province. Not just your little Loyalist/Unionist part of the province, but ALL of it.

As I said above, it's like comparing a private vehcile or small-company car driving round NI with a tricolour out the window, and a PSNI vheicle doing the same. There is clearly a massive dfifference, but you're either too simple or too bloody-minded to see it.

Now, where did I leave the headache pills. Denting the shape of my forehead onto the wall is really starting to bite....

And the Union Flag is the flag of all of this country and not just part of it. Some choose not to recognise it as such and that is their choice but the fact remains that it is the official flag of Northern Ireland and there is therefore nothing whatsoever wrong in it being displayed at Northern Ireland games. You throw accusations of being thick towards me when really this is quite simple but you cannot seem to grasp it, when our country is playing it is perfectly valid to display the flag of our country just like countries all over the world do. If someone says they will not go because of a flag I feel they are simply making excuses and if that is removed then they will find something else to complain about. For evidence of that just check out the Linfield True Blues thread where some feel the name of our mascot could offend some.
22/08/2006, 11:14 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

And the Union Flag is the flag of all of this country and not just part of it. Some choose not to recognise it as such and that is their choice but the fact remains that it is the official flag of Northern Ireland and there is therefore nothing whatsoever wrong in it being displayed at Northern Ireland games.

* Sound of head banging against wall begins again in the middle-distance....*
22/08/2006, 11:29 AM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

* Sound of head banging against wall begins again in the middle-distance....*

Oh I forgot, you are not too keen on facts. :rolleyes:
22/08/2006, 12:23 PM
Gather round

Heh. This reminds me of that old Spitting Image sketch where the Liberal and Social Democratic Parties were arguing about what to call themselves after merger.

'OK, David, we'll take the "Republic of" part of our our name and add it to the "Iron" part of your name'...

Speranza- I suppose it has occured to you that parroting 'you shouldn't exist' is likely to get 'yes but we do exist' as a response (and vice-versa, of course).

The current 'row' about the Ireland- Italy rugby at Ravenhill shows a compromise (although to be fair to IPJ, he says he doesn't want to make an exaggerated issue of it).

Let's have Ireland's call or similar at all Lansdowne and Windsor internationals this term. What d'ye think, boys?
22/08/2006, 12:45 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Heh. This reminds me of that old Spitting Image sketch where the Liberal and Social Democratic Parties were arguing about what to call themselves after merger.

'OK, David, we'll take the "Republic of" part of our our name and add it to the "Iron" part of your name'...

Speranza- I suppose it has occured to you that parroting 'you shouldn't exist' is likely to get 'yes but we do exist' as a response (and vice-versa, of course).

The current 'row' about the Ireland- Italy rugby at Ravenhill shows a compromise (although to be fair to IPJ, he says he doesn't want to make an exaggerated issue of it).

Let's have Ireland's call or similar at all Lansdowne and Windsor internationals this term. What d'ye think, boys?

That will not be sufficient for them as what they want is to keep their identity and for us to remove ours.
22/08/2006, 1:37 PM
Speranza

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Speranza- I suppose it has occured to you that parroting 'you shouldn't exist' is likely to get 'yes but we do exist' as a response (and vice-versa, of course).

This debate is not about the right of the six counties to exist as a country. I was merely stating fact when I said that my nationalist views are the reason that I would never support NI.

David, I wouldn't be as narrow minded as yourself in my views to sectarianism but before you consult your unionist friends from Derry you should read up on a few facts. This Summer 3 young Derry men have ended up in intensive care after sectarian assualts, the 3 were all Nationalists. A leading UPRG politican shockingly said recently that the people of the oppressed:rolleyes: Fountain didn't want peace with their Nationalist neighbours - that blows your unionists are oppressed in Derry theory out of the water.
22/08/2006, 1:51 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Let's have Ireland's call or similar at all Lansdowne and Windsor internationals this term. What d'ye think, boys?

Despite the fact that Amhrann na bhFiann isn't a contentious anthem in the Republic, and that the Republic isn't a socially fractured society currently emerging from 40 years of near-civil warfare like the North, I'd still go with that suggestion. That's the way progressive people think, you see....

At least you don't feel the need to cling to GSTQ like a culturally needy child scared that without the opportunity to ostentiously declare your undying love of the monarchy that you, somehow, might wake up tomorrow just that little bit less British.

And as we're expanding it beyond the north into uncontentious issues like the South's anthem, in gambling parlance I'll see your Amhran na bhFiann and raise you a GSTQ at Wembley/Old Trafford/wherever. You'll find there's more opposition to that anthem amongst England fans than there is to Amhrann na bhFiann amongst Irish ones.
22/08/2006, 1:55 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speranza

This debate is not about the right of the six counties to exist as a country. I was merely stating fact when I said that my nationalist views are the reason that I would never support NI.

David, I wouldn't be as narrow minded as yourself in my views to sectarianism but before you consult your unionist friends from Derry you should read up on a few facts. This Summer 3 young Derry men have ended up in intensive care after sectarian assualts, the 3 were all Nationalists. A leading UPRG politican shockingly said recently that the people of the oppressed:rolleyes: Fountain didn't want peace with their Nationalist neighbours - that blows your unionists are oppressed in Derry theory out of the water.

My theory? Where have I expressed such a theory? All I said was that there are sectarian problems in Londonderry which you seem to be proving for me.
22/08/2006, 1:56 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

That will not be sufficient for them as what they want is to keep their identity and for us to remove ours.

Who exactly are "them" David ? :confused:

And how many times do I have to say that it's not about anyone losing anything. It's about neither side owning that which claims to represent us all. The Northern team could sing 'When the boat comes in' and you'd still be British, I'd still be Irish, and the world would keep on turning.

Or are you saying that it would stop you being British any longer if the Northern Irish team stopped singing GSTQ ? Would it make you any less British than you are now if they did ? If not - then how have u lost any of your identity ?? :confused:
22/08/2006, 1:59 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

At least you don't feel the need to cling to GSTQ like a culturally needy child scared that without the opportunity to ostentiously declare your undying love of the monarchy that you, somehow, might wake up tomorrow just that little bit less British.

What gives you the right to insult anyone who wants their national anthem played when.........ummmm........national anthems are played before the game. And you call me thick? By the way I can completely accept (and have already done so in this thread) the abolishing of all national anthems before games but until such times, when national anthems are played that is what I want, the national anthem of Northern ireland which is GSTQ.
22/08/2006, 2:00 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Who exactly are "them" David ? :confused:

And how many times do I have to say that it's not about anyone losing anything. It's about neither side owning that which claims to represent us all. The Northern team could sing 'When the boat comes in' and you'd still be British, I'd still be Irish, and the world would keep on turning.

Or are you saying that it would stop you being British any longer if the Northern Irish team stopped singing GSTQ ? Would it make you any less British than you are now if they did ? If not - then how have u lost any of your identity ?? :confused:

Not at all, like I say above, all I want is the national anthem of Northern ireland played when they play national anthems before a Northern Ireland game. Hardly rocket science is it?
22/08/2006, 3:34 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Not at all, like I say above, all I want is the national anthem of Northern ireland played when they play national anthems before a Northern Ireland game. Hardly rocket science is it?

Then you'll just have to aceppt that doing that and playing under the Union Flag and/or Stormont flag will alienate a large section of the province. Which could have implications on funding etc.

You can dismiss it all you like by claiming more Catholics wouldn't support the north even if changes were made. But that would be like saying 'My wife left me last year because I was an alcoholic. I only drink a wee bit these days, but she says she won't come back until I'm fully on the wagon. But I don't reckon she'll ever come back anyway, so why should I bother giving up the drink ?".

Until such a time as the NI team presents itself as the exclusive property of neither communtiy in the province, you'll never actually know how many extra Catholics it could attract. And until then, you have no right to bemoan the fact that few Catholics support the team.
22/08/2006, 10:01 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Then you'll just have to aceppt that doing that and playing under the Union Flag and/or Stormont flag will alienate a large section of the province. Which could have implications on funding etc.

You can dismiss it all you like by claiming more Catholics wouldn't support the north even if changes were made. But that would be like saying 'My wife left me last year because I was an alcoholic. I only drink a wee bit these days, but she says she won't come back until I'm fully on the wagon. But I don't reckon she'll ever come back anyway, so why should I bother giving up the drink ?".

Until such a time as the NI team presents itself as the exclusive property of neither communtiy in the province, you'll never actually know how many extra Catholics it could attract. And until then, you have no right to bemoan the fact that few Catholics support the team.

Who is bemoaning the fact? Derry City supporters are the only ones mentioning it. If people can't come to a Northern Ireland game and accept that they will hear the national anthem of orthern Ireland and see a few official flags of Northern Ireland then to me someone like that is no big loss, they are merely looking excuses not to be there. Do you accept that a tricolour at a Derry City game will alienate a section (although seemingly a dwindling section) of Londonderry.
22/08/2006, 11:24 PM
MariborKev

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Who is bemoaning the fact? Derry City supporters are the only ones mentioning it. If people can't come to a Northern Ireland game and accept that they will hear the national anthem of orthern Ireland and see a few official flags of Northern Ireland then to me someone like that is no big loss, they are merely looking excuses not to be there. Do you accept that a tricolour at a Derry City game will alienate a section (although seemingly a dwindling section) of Londonderry.

A tricolour with "Dublin Derry City SC" on it will alienate Protestants

The saltaire with "Scottish Derry City SC" will alienate non Scots

The Che Guevara flag with a City scarf will alienate Capitalists

The Queens University Derry City Supporters Flag will alienate lads from the Poly

The London SC flag will alienate those non-Londoners amongst the City support.

Catch yerself on David.

I have been a regular attender at Windsor Park, both before and after "Football for All" started.

Has there been huge improvements? Yes
Is it much less intimidating than it was? Yes

However personally I still feel that I shouldn't feel guilty for saying that I would prefer a "new anthem". You talk of your identity being taking away, yet you feel unable to allow for the Catholics, such as myself, who feel as if our identity isn't represented.

You summed it up some pages back when you classed yourself as British and then Northern Irish. Hand over ther baton to some of the more progressive thinkers amongst the OWC support, and there are many, as they can debate this much more effectively than you.
22/08/2006, 11:38 PM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maribor

A tricolour with "Dublin Derry City SC" on it will alienate Protestants

The saltaire with "Scottish Derry City SC" will alienate non Scots

The Che Guevara flag with a City scarf will alienate Capitalists

The Queens University Derry City Supporters Flag will alienate lads from the Poly

The London SC flag will alienate those non-Londoners amongst the City support.

Can't you see that you are making my point here, those that want to find offence will find it no matter what. As for me being British first and foremost, yes I have no problem in saying that and don't see that as anything to be ashamed of, as for you saying that I am not forward thinking, I think I would prefer to listen to people who actually know me on that one.
22/08/2006, 11:49 PM
MariborKev

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

as for you saying that I am not forward thinking, I think I would prefer to listen to people who actually know me on that one.

David you have freely admitted that you haven't been at Windsor in several years.

I have attended numerous games since me da first took me to a friendly against Sweden in the mid 90s(Dahlin scored).

We were block bookers when they were ****e. I can remember watching them get beat at home by Armenia IIRC.

I have been at several games in recent campaigns, but it is getting harder to get tickets these days.

As an unashamed middle class Catholic I am proud to say I am Northern Irish first, then Irish second.

You can't see to grasp the fact that the status quo makes me slightly uncomfortable. I stand for God Save the Queen but it is one of the few moments in the whole thing where I don't feel part of it.

Listen to the opposition anthem at the next game(assuming it ain't England), and imagine that was Northern Ireland's. Would you feel any connection to it, does it represent you?

If you can't see that your are alienating entire chunks of the populous then fair enough. Changing the anthem or flag only takes away your identity if you let it, but the change can broaden that identity to includes so many more at the same time.
23/08/2006, 9:27 AM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maribor

David you have freely admitted that you haven't been at Windsor in several years.

I have attended numerous games since me da first took me to a friendly against Sweden in the mid 90s(Dahlin scored).

We were block bookers when they were ****e. I can remember watching them get beat at home by Armenia IIRC.

I have been at several games in recent campaigns, but it is getting harder to get tickets these days.

As an unashamed middle class Catholic I am proud to say I am Northern Irish first, then Irish second.

You can't see to grasp the fact that the status quo makes me slightly uncomfortable. I stand for God Save the Queen but it is one of the few moments in the whole thing where I don't feel part of it.

Listen to the opposition anthem at the next game(assuming it ain't England), and imagine that was Northern Ireland's. Would you feel any connection to it, does it represent you?

If you can't see that your are alienating entire chunks of the populous then fair enough. Changing the anthem or flag only takes away your identity if you let it, but the change can broaden that identity to includes so many more at the same time.

Why do people keep misquoting me? Where have I said that I have not been at a game in several years? That Armenia game that you mentioned, I too was there. I was there all through the period that we could not score a goal. I only stopped going at the start of the last World Cup qualifying campaign because of the unavailability of tickets.

As for the British flag and anthem, what is offensive in either. Yes I can accept that you may not feel part of it and that is fair enough but I cannot see how it would offend you and it is our national anthem and our flag, it is part and parcel of Northern Ireland in the same way that Le Marseillaise (sp) and the French flag is part and parcel of France and the Soldiers Song and the tricolour are part and parcel of Ireland.

I don't want these things because for some obscure reason some people find them offensive (and I would love to know what people find offensive in either), I want them because they are our national anthem and our flag, it really is as simple as that. I can fully respect the opinion of Northern Ireland supporters who want an anthem unique to Northern Ireland. The reason I respect it is that it is not being political when they say it, it is there personal choice. Others are calling on it to be removed for political reasons. Whilst respecting the opinion of some Northern Ireland fans on this, I personally disagree with them, as would many other Northern Ireland fans. Not Brazil has stated that he is in favour of an anthem change and he is someone that I respect. I have worked alongside him with stuff at Linfield and I agree with him on many many things, this one I disagree with him on and I am certain he will respect my opinion. That is what it is all about, respecting others opinions, something that seems alien to Derry City fans. If I am at any event in the south and the Soldiers Song is played then I will have no problem whatsoever in standing for it and would feel in no way uncomfortable in doing so, it is the national anthem of the country that I am in and I would respect it in the same way that I would respect any other national anthem. Why can people not give the Northern Ireland national anthem the same courtesy when in this country?

People say Scotland and Wales have their own anthems for games despite being British and that is a very valid point. However in Scotland The Brave and Land of My Fathers they have traditional songs of their country already in place. In my opinion we do not have that and I would be against a fabrciated song written solely for this purpose to try to appease people that are rarely if ever going to go to games any way. I accept totally that it would also meet with the approval of some Northern Ireland fans but I still disagree with it. Just my opinion but holding that opinion does not make me a dinosaur, a bigot or lacking in forward thinking. I am British, that is me and I am proud to be British and when some people in this country stop attaching some sort of stigma to that and looking down on people who feel this way then maybe we can really make some progress in this beautiful country of ours.
23/08/2006, 3:54 PM
EalingGreen

Heads & Brick Walls (or should that be "Brick Heads"?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maribor

I have been a regular attender at Windsor Park, both before and after "Football for All" started.

Has there been huge improvements? Yes
Is it much less intimidating than it was? Yes

However personally I still feel that I shouldn't feel guilty for saying that I would prefer a "new anthem". You talk of your identity being taking away, yet you feel unable to allow for the Catholics, such as myself, who feel as if our identity isn't represented.

You summed it up some pages back when you classed yourself as British and then Northern Irish. Hand over ther baton to some of the more progressive thinkers amongst the OWC support, and there are many, as they can debate this much more effectively than you.

I have been reading this debate between DCFCSteve and David with increasing bewilderment. How people can invest so much energy in squabbling over pretty much irrelevant or unimportant details is beyond me - especially when it serves only to detract from the real issue, which is a football match.

As I see it, David is misguided in thinking that following the NI football team in some way validates or reinforces his Britishness. Yes, NI is part of the UK and therefore its anthem is GSTQ and official flag is the UJ. So what? In the end, GSTQ is merely two minutes before the match and as such, pretty much unimportant to the main proceedings. The UJ doesn't fly at NI internationals (and very few fans carry it now, as well). FIFA/UEFA require that National Flags be flown, so for NI, this is the NI flag. Frankly, it can't even be seen from 2/3 of the ground and the rest of us don't spend our time staring at it any more than we do the floodlight pylons. People like David should try, however, to understand how these may make Catholics/Nationalists uncomfortable. Then, remind themselves that when rugby fans from NI go to Lansdowne for a match, where they fly the Tricolour and play The Soldiers Song (neither of which represents our particular part of Ireland), the best attitude is "Stand Up, Shut Up, then Sit Down and Enjoy the Bloody Game". (At least, that is what I do - it does not make me any more "Oirish" or any less "British" - or, at least, it didn't the last time I looked)

As for Steve, I have to say, your reading of what actually goes on at NI matches - home and away - appears somewhat outdated and misinformed. It is no longer a Prod- or BritFest i.e. an opportunity for the Billy Boys to prove their "loyalty" and keep the Taigs in their place (in so far as it ever was). Really determined attempts both at Official Level (e.g. the IFA's "Football For All") and Unofficial Level (e.g. Sea of Green), plus the Block Booking process, have been hugely successful in eradicating the majority of previous bad behaviour.
Of course, there are still isolated individuals who have yet to catch up with the evolutionary process, but like the rest of the Dinosaurs, it is to be hoped that they will die out in time.
As such, they are about as typical of the mainstream NI support as those individuals at ROI matches who e.g. booed Holland's Rangers players, or waved Palestinian flags at the Israel team, or shout "Up the RA" during the Field of Athenry are of ROI mainstream fans i.e. not at all.

Therefore I feel Maribor has got it spot on - with a degree of tolerance and reason on all sides, there is no compelling reason why someone from a Nationalist background cannot support NI, just as there should be no remark passed should they prefer to support the ROI. It's all about choosing which is the most comfortable and inspiring atmosphere to enjoy a game of football and all the crack that goes with it.

Beyond that, all I would say to Steve is this:
You have indicated that you have still got some residual "feeling" for the NI team - even if certain circumstances deter you from taking it further. Can I suggest that you make the effort to attend a game? I'm sure I could arrange a spare ticket or two and I'd be happy for you to be my guest when next I travel back to Belfast from London. If you still don't like it, then fair enough, but I am very confident that you will be pleasantly surprised. You might even bump into one or two of your Derry City mates!

As for David, I think you need to chill: it's a football match we're talking about, no more than that. Different fans invest different passions into the game, nobody needs to prove or disprove anything - the only thing that really counts is that we can get behind 11 lads doing their best for our wee part of the world for 90 minutes.

For the record, even though I don't carry one, I personally am quite happy with the NI flag, but would prefer to see (the dirge-like) GSTQ replaced as an Anthem by something peculiarly Northern Irish - after all, it is NI I support in football, not the UK. (Re this latter point, I wouldn't be surprised if I was in a majority of the support - or near it, at least)

Beyond that, if there should be any other ex-NI fans out there, whose allegiance has transferred to the ROI, you might consider coming back into the fold, as well. After all, with the way our teams' respective fortunes seem to be shaping up on the field, if you leave it too late, you might just get a name for being "glory-hunters", that is, when we overtake you on your way down! ;)

Bring On The Mighty Icelanders! :D

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