corks debt was historical shels is hysterical
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corks debt was historical shels is hysterical
WAR, a charge doesn't give an automatic right to evict, that can only happen if the tennant is in breach of the terms of the agreement. It also doesn't give an automatic right to take full owenership of the asset.
It's highly likely that the loans so far advanced have only to be repaid on a sale of the lease. It's is also highly likely that there is a time limit, hence Shels' desire to move to Dalymount or Morton (given Tallaght's current problems and the fact that a decision won't come from the High Court until just before Christmas implies that Shels deadline is before then).
300K isn't much if you've still potentially got another 7m coming to you.
Bad Mongo, developers have gotten around these problems in the past. Dublin City Council like the idea of private apartment blocks beside public areas as it is what I think they refer to as "passive security", reducing the risk of problems in those areas.
I'm not supportive of what their trying to do, I believe it will ultimately end in failure, but there is quite a bit more time to run on this one than most people on this forum think.
Baffled and all as I am by the appeal of baseball (basically rounders played in builders' hard hats), they do have one rule that we could do worse than adopt - three strikes and you're out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stato
Stato
Rumour I know, but it is widely believed that Ossie Kilkenny has forwarded Shelbourne FC a considerable sum over the last few years. Remember when Shels played Deportivo, Finbarr Flood was in the papers saying the club's debts would be down to a more manageable figure, I think he said 700k.
Thats 2 years ago. In the mean time Shelbourne have established one of the most expensive squads ever assembled and income has obviously fallen away.
Shels may still have a considerable enough sum to come when the time comes to leave Tolka but the lease is only worth about 10-12 million. Subtract 2-3 million and you are left with the figure which was widely believed to be what they needed to get half of Dalymount.
Bottom line is the money required to get set up elsewhere after debts are paid, and I reckon they have fairly sizeable debts [i know Bohs have debts before anyone throws that into the equation]. When they are paid off they will be left with enough to keep them going for a few years and if they dont hit the jackpot in that time then they are rightly fukked
Brian McEniff the hotelier/developer was spotted at their game v. Sunderland.Being treated very respectfully by the Shels hierarchy apparently. Didn't know he was a Shels fan..
Didn't know he was even an association football fan at all! he does own a hotel quite close to Tolka though.
It's highly unlikely that Shels have sizeable debts. Firstly, banks don't want to touch eircom League clubs and certainly not to lend money to so their debt to financial institutions cannot be significant. Revenue are now employing a get tough policy and so their debt to them is probably six to eight months PAYE/PRSI at a maximum. Given that other costs of running a football club (light, heat, rates, telephones etc) are probably no more than 250K a year and that a lot of the suppliers of these services will use a get tough policy too (especially given the fact that it's public knowledge that Shels have cashflow difficulties), their overall creditors cannot be that high.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohs til i die
The only significant debts Shels could have would be to current and/or previous board members and shareholders. Most of them will have written that amount off as they wrote the cheque.
The other assumption you make is that they'll have to pay out a large amount to get a new stadium. That's not the case if they're going to be renting.
All those little creditors add up (as was the case with Rovers). If they owe a printer €20K and a kit supplier €15K, it'll hurt. I take your point totally though
I don't think it's as highly unlikely that they have sizeable debts that you think Stato. The banks have been throwing money at people for the last 6-7 years. With the great press that Shels got over their European campaign and winning the leagues they have done recently, add in the fact that they have sold their lease on Tolka Park - what was to stop Oily going down to the AIB in Drumcondra looking for a short term loan here and a short term loan there "because of a little cashflow problem we have at the moment" - and that it will be paid back as soon as the Uefa money comes in.
It's easily done and the way Oily has been managing that clubs business for the last ten years or so who's to say that this scenario is an impossibility or even an improbability? I know it's all conjecture, but if anybody seriously thinks that with the crowds that Shels pull in and a commercial revenue stream of 300k per annum at best, that they have been able to pay a wage bill in excess of 30k per week based on these figures plus the paltry sum clubs get for TV and prize money then they are sadly deluded. The money has to have come from somewhere, unfortunatly for Oily not enough of it and it's coming back to nite him on the bum!
The banks have been throwing money at people to buy assets i.e. property. They've been doing it once you can show the ability to make the repayments with a consistent annual income. If Shels were borrowing, it wasn't to buy an asset and it wasn't with accounts showing regular annual profits.
Banks haven't been throwing money at businesses to fund their daily expenses. If they did extend facilities on the basis of something like the UEFA money they would have withdrawn the facility once that money came in. The type of scenario that the late Charlie Haughey got away with happened in the 1980s, not in this decade. It's because of what happened in the 1980s that the banks centrallised all major lending decisions (over 50K for most banks) rather than allow the local manager make the decision.
True, the amounts Shels will have earned in the past will not have been close to what they've spent but then if they hadn't kept all their accounting records in cardboard boxes on the lowest floor in the ground they wouldn't have been destroyed by that flood and we might have some real idea of the figures.
The future might be a little different though. Consider that the league champions are now picking up 225,000 prize money. For each round they participate in Champions League qualifiers they get another 100,000 (if they don't make the group stages), and if they get to round 3 and get beaten they get 70,000 for playing one round in the UEFA Cup. That's what happened Shels a couple of years ago, if they do it next year that's a total of 595,000 income, not to mention the gate receipts. Starts to become a different scenario then.
Again, I'll repeat, it's a win or die gamble though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stato
Stato
I believe they have significant debts. They have failed to produce a programme on a number of occasions this season including two home games they had against Bohs.
I get the Bohs accounts every year as a member. I see the costs in running a football club. If Shels vacate Tolka and rent say Dalymount or Richmond, they will still have to fund a training setup etc. I dont believe the money they will get will significantly increase the chances of them landing the European Jackpot in the few years they will have the moneyto give it a go.
As for the costs of running a football club, well there is home match expenses, away match travel and food, training facilities, insurance to name but a few. Shels will also need an office of some description to run the club from. They will also lose some income from bars/kiddy disco's etc. Commercial income may drop off significantly as well.
There is still some substantial costs involved. Bohs spend about 500k a year on top of the first team squad so how long will it take Shels to go through a few million with no sustainable income streams?
You seem to think/believe that Shels will get the few million[5/7.5/10 or whatever] and it will be used to land group stage of the champions league.
The way I see it, if Shels end up renting from another organisation, they lose income streams and the windfall will be making up an even bigger annual deficit unless they curb the spending.
This is all speculation here as no one knows what the situation is at Shels. I know most City fans were a bit concerned with our tax bill when first came out but then actually happy had come out into the public domain as at least we knew that should be the limit of the tax bill. The Revenue are or have invested every club in the league.
I think to have a go at the CL group stages Shels would need to invest a lot more on a yearly basis which would not seem to be possible now.
[QUOTE=pete;515924]This is all speculation here as no one knows what the situation is at Shels. I know most City fans were a bit concerned with our tax bill when first came out but then actually happy had come out into the public domain as at least we knew that should be the limit of the tax bill. The Revenue are or have invested every club in the league.
Bohs' members are privy to a lot of Shels financial constraints due to the offer put on the table for the Dalyer groundshare. That combined with some educated guesswork and media leaks would suggest Shels will exit Tolka with anything between 3-8M spondools, depending on debts and asset strippers. I would believe it's the lower figure, or maybe even less.
Stato: I assume we share a similiar professional background in built environment matters judging by your educated responses on this thread.
Shels cash input on the Dalyer groundshare deal was predicated on the density of residential development at the rezoned Tolka. i.e more cash available if higher density development was getting the go ahead at Tolka.
Reading between the lines of the City manager's report Tolka will be redeveloped at medium density, thus reducing the value of Shels' asset. Tolka park is subject to a draft local Area Plan, which as you may know will have considerable policy clout when it comes to planning decisions made by the likes of An Bord Pleanala, and would also be a material consideration at local authority level. The whole LAP area also covers land belonging to Stella Maris FC and a hospital situauted across the road will be subject to a comprehensive urban design framework. This will be an indicative template of what developers can expect to get away with building in the area. The city manager's report states that the higher density of residential development is prefered to take place on the other site mentioned along Richmond Road. Add to that the potential objectors from the granny flats and the popensity for flooding at Tolka and you arrive at the conclusions stated...
Stato - I should have explained myself better re. Ossie Kilkenny's charge on Tolka. Kilkenny and co. have been bankrolling Shels since March 2003. That's a lorra lorra cash. And if Shels can't make any demanded repayments then the charge comes into effect.
It's a simple case of smart developers/speculators vs. dim football administrators. A tale as old as the game itself.
Bad Mongo - You who I assume you to be?
KOH
;) some rovers dufus beat me to my preferred handle on this MB:(Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
In fairness, that's his real name. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bad mongo
KOH
Surely if Shels have an asset worth, let's say, E10m (i.e. Tolka), then the bank will lend them a good chunk of that on the basis that the worst case scenario is Shels go broke, their asset is sold and the bank recoup their loan from the E10m. Shels being in business isn't going to affect the value of the ground. So Shels' debts could certainly be up to 50%, 60%, maybe 70% of the value of their lease, depending. E5m to E7m. (That's a possible maximum debt, not a stab at their actual debt obviously). Though I don't know how much of the value of a lease a bank will mortgage for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stato
Has any paper reported on this yesterday or today? I only had a glance at yesterday's Herald and I didn't see anything.
yes i read in this mornings paper that shels were folding and all the players were free agents and that tolka park was been turned into a new superhighway to dalymount and that ollie had started a life sentence in grange gorman :**** it was only a dream ,why did you wake me
youre realy joining this deabte months too lateQuote:
Originally Posted by Stato
weve been thru the whole housing on tolka thing. the amount of housing isnt going to be huge. shels chunk of their lease is worth roughly E7M according to the sunday business post a few months ago.thats areliable source.
the champions league dream is what shels have already tried, and failed. the CL dream is over simplistic cloud cuckoo land stuff.
get realistic.theres n omagic solution to clubs problems. it will take years of hard work building clubs up in their local community with investment in schoolboys, coaching and developement facilities. yes its damn long hard work but its the only relaistic choice. waffling on about throwing money at a champions leage pipedream is what has gotten shels into the state their in.
an unremarkable man learns form his own mistakes
a clever man learns from the mistakes of others
now..who wants to learn from shels mistakes?? and who wants to learn from their own?
Revenue never mentioned anything historical. That first came about with Brian Lennox trying to convince the cork fans it was all an innocent mistake. Most seem to have swallowed it. Ollie on the other hand is a nasty criminal trying to cheat everyone in the league :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by manic da hoop
A debt is a debt and they all need paying.....
NO EXCUSES....
I'm glad you've woken up to sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Can you now go forward and spread the word to the rest of the members of your cult.
It'll never work,he is and always will be a God in my eyes!Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
there is a lot of guys in Mountjoy who had kids like you thinking that of them ......Quote:
Originally Posted by Anto McC
Any update on this? High Court date is next Wednesday 23rd August...
An article by Mark Gallagher in the Ireland on Sunday had words to the effect of "the bill will be definitely paid by the date" but that looked like it was lifted off Shelsweb. The media doesn't seem to have unearthed any real explanation as to where this second wind up order came from.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
It says a lot about the eL when it isn't really a big deal when one of its most prominent clubs gets a winding up order. Chances are it'll be paid of course, but Shels seem to be walking a very fine line. One f*%k up in getting money from the property guys or whoever and it's bye bye. And if they weren't having bother paying wouldn't it be paid before the date?Quote:
An article by Mark Gallagher in the Ireland on Sunday had words to the effect of "the bill will be definitely paid by the date" but that looked like it was lifted off Shelsweb. The media doesn't seem to have unearthed any real explanation as to where this second wind up order came from.
In any case it's yet more bad publicity for the league........
If you add up all the bits and pieces, it sounds to me like Shels are just alternating between paying the Revenue and paying the players, but they're not in a position to do both at once.
Ollie says there is nothing to worry about so Im not stressed.
Fair enough so.Quote:
Ollie says there is nothing to worry about so Im not stressed.
That's as good a guess as I can come up with. Now that the transfer window has closed and the season's end is approaching they can stop paying the players again.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub
Oh chrνst ... we won 6 points from Dublin City and 4 from Shels so we stand to lose 10 points for not losing a game. ffsQuote:
Originally Posted by thejollyrodger
yeah but you'll gain a place when shels go on holidays early....
Just about the only way they'll get second spot...Quote:
Originally Posted by green-blood
Here's the article. It seems to suggest that it's the same bill as the last winding-up order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Quote:
The Revenue filed a similar petition against the club in March after it emerged it owed 300,000 in back taxes. The petition was dropped after the two sides agreed a schedule of repayment. However, the club has fallen behind on the repayments, prompting the Revenue to return to the High Court. The two sides are in negotiations for a new deal.
if ollie gets his replay with bohs and give the gate to charity
does that mean shels is registered as a charity. if not i could recommenend that well known charitry the foot in mouth foundation ,im sure ollie knows them i think he was a founder member
Actually Schumi I'd read that as implying that it's a new winding up order...
My reading too.
Its a new winding up order on the same debt.
There's also a fair chance the Revenue won't agree to a payment plan this time around and will demand everything paid up to date in a lump sum PDQ.
Just read it again actually - you're right. It says Revenue and Shels agreed a settlement method - say 30 months @ E10,000 a month - which Shels have now defaulted on. Which isn't surprising really as, say, two gates of 1,500 a month might only bring in E30,000 cash in total, from which to pay the ten grand, wages, stadium expenses, debt servicing, travel, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy