I voted for winter, *dons his flame resistant pants and goggles and gets the marshmallows ;) *
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I voted for winter, *dons his flame resistant pants and goggles and gets the marshmallows ;) *
Summer! Better pitch conditions and weather contribute largely to a better standard of football. Better standard of football means better results in europe and more fans...
It has yet to be proven that there's any correlation between those two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
Better results in europe mean more people attend CL & Uefa Cup games...Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
RonnieB said it best i think lads. He we are debating who's opinion is right. RonnieB gave his and is enjoying the marshmallows while we try to use a flamethrower on each others opinion.
Statistics can prove anything and its impossible to tell what would actually have happened had we stuck to mudball unless there is a parallel universe that is still playing winterball so we can compare the two. There will always be a factor that will throw off the stats.
So what else can we do but say what we prefer. For me its summerball.
I think the poster of the topic asked us to keep it that way to and someone else was wise enough to point out you will not change the opinion of the stubborn likes of us on this forum ;) Rant over.
The proof is in the pudding.
4 eL teams in Europe, 4 teams progress to the 2nd round.
3 still have a chance to go further.
Yeah but if you think about it logically (not saying you are not using logic :D ) summer football helps teams in Europe - because of this eventually an el team will qualify for the group stages of cl or Uefa - IMO when this happens the public will finally sit up and take notice to an extent - then I predict attendances will rise - maybe a considerable increase with the team(s) which has made the breakthrough. Also as Pete says Better results in europe mean more people attend CL & Uefa Cup gamesQuote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Joema, I hope you're right. I'm just thinking back to Shelbourne coming within touching distance of the CL. Their attendances didn't appear to climb at all on the back of a great European campaign. I agree that it can only increase the league's credibility and reputation, however European successes seem to only fill the ground on the night and not the next week in the league games.
Cork have 5,500 for a game against Crvena Zvezda Beograd ( which is Red Star Belgrade in Serbian), and nothing like that for most of their league games. And folks Cork City are the best supported Club in the EL bar none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
The situation is simple, Summer soccer has improved performances in Europe, BUT HAS DONE NOTHING FOR ATTENDANCES AT THE EL. Quite the opposite , this season everyone's crowds are down!
Having said that I think a complete reversion to Winter football would not necessarily work either. Which is why I haven't voted as such!
summer. attendances, going on official figures, have remained pretty much the same for the last 6 years, going up and down slightly. why does it not suprise me that two of the most degenerating clubs in the league, longford and bray who have taken massive steps backwards recently, are the ones whinging loudest.
Fair point regarding Shels run in Europe and its effect on attendances. But if/when an el team does qualify with the amount of money they get and the players they may be able to attract I can see attendances increasing. If we revert back to winter football it will be ten times harder to progress in Europe
More european games means more games which means total crowd for the year will be higher therefore higher revenue. More euorpean games improves the profile of the league, more live tv matches & therefore sponsors should be willing to spend more on clubs. More european games means players ability improves & therefore their value increases.Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
I think no matter what season we play in & no matter how many games we play in europe it is very difficult to increase average attendances - the best we can hope for is big crowds at the biggest games - this is what happens throughout europe.
I don't know if will have immeadiate impact on attendances but no one can deny the eL results in europe haven't given a huge boost to everyone involved in our league this week.
Your points are well made however, one of the selling points for summer soccer was that EL crowds would improve as games would be played in better weather. This has patently not occurred. And apart from 1 or 2 clubs everyone has had reduced crowds this season even Shelbourne, who have the best ground in Dublin, play the best crowd pleasing football in Dublin etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Yes obviously there was no research done on the advantages summer football would bring. However we are now in a summer season so i think the way to look at the debate is what advantages would winter football bring i.e. its a big chance to move to a different season...Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
I won't, I'm afraid. The stats I have show a 22% drop in attendances this year compared to last (this year is yet to finish obviously, but previous seasons have shown that we'll be doing well to avoid a 15% decrease); 2005 showed a 2% decrease. Only seven clubs have attendances up this season on last - including Sligo Rovers and Dublin City (promoted), Dundalk (no longer playing in Monaghan), Athlone, Kildare and Monaghan (both as a result of boosted crowds against Rovers). You lose about 15-20% on Bank Holiday weekends. Certainly there's been a significant drop in away support at UCD games this season and last, although home support is increasing. Attendances are down this season, and quite significantly so.Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
I wonder how much of that can be directly attributed to summer football and not to just a change in attitude on the clubs' behalf? I agree summer football hasn't hurt, but the eL's first good season in Europe in this current run was arguably the 2000/01 season (UCD draw home and away against a Bulgarian side with numerous internationals, Bohs knock out Aberdeen and beat Kaiserslautern and Shels knock out Sloga Jugomagnat) - this was a winter season. So the clubs had shown themselves capable of good European performances in winter seasons as well. Those results could well have given clubs the confidence to have a proper go in Europe as well as show the rewards of getting through just one round in Europe (games against Kaiserslautern and Rosenborg).Quote:
Originally Posted by Peadar
I agree that to change back to winter football would be a huge move and one which would have to be properly looked at this time. My preference, however, is for winter football.
Just on the attendances issue in the Winter/Summer debate, no one has even mentioned the fact that no club seems to be making any inroad on barstoolers .... that is the biggest problem. If half the guys who actually like footie supported their local team then we would have this problem.
So, the main sorry, only reason why we should play in winter, is because crowds would increase. :confused: Would they?
For nearly 20 years, I watched LOI football in the wind and rain in December, and January, and I saw hundreds of deserted stands/sandpits/grassy banks around the country every week. Crowds will not dramatically increase no matter when football is played in this country. Look at places like Galway, Limerick, and Waterford, one-team areas with massive catchment areas, and one Waterford fan here is moaning that a home game for him is a 60-mile round trip. :rolleyes: If you're passionate about your team, you'll travel the 60 miles to go. Our own fans spend thousands of €'s on long-haul trips to Finn Harps, Limerick and Cobh every second week, because our fans have the attitude, the desire, and the passion to watch the team play. We doubled Kilkenny's weekly attendance when we went there, and increased Kildare's weekly attendances ten-fold, when we travelled to Newbridge to watch first-division football. And this is a club with no home ground! Everywhere we've gone, has seen the local side's biggest attendances this season. If fans of other clubs had the same desire to watch their team play, then attendances would improve everywhere, no matter when the games were on.
This Party Political broadcast was brought to you by the 'Shamrock Rovers are Great Foundation'.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
If the Winter campaigners aren't allowed to argue about crowds being down due to some clubs being rubbish now, the summer campaigners shouldn't be allowed use European results as IMO the change to Full time football has been more important in this regard. The point is its very very hard to say whether its worked or not when everyone here has such hugely differing views on what success is/isn't...Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
You are great! Well done.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Going into European games at full force against teams in a pre-season type mentality would be what I would attribute it to more than full time football which has obviously helped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
PS. I voted Summer some time last week..
I was thinking about this over the weekend and I can't remember a season where the top 4 teams in the league have been our representatives in Europe. That is surely a contributing factor to our success this term.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Having said that, I still think that the league has a better chance of growing in its current form.
Because eL sides play in the northern european section its rare that our opponents have a winter season so has been no real advantage for the Uefa cup.Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
In the CL qualifiers the summer season has sometimes been an advantage like this year.
Yup, all those free burgers would definitely make himQuote:
Originally Posted by EnDai
A FLOATING FAN !!!!
:D :p
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Let's face it spanner head, there will be very few people who can prove this either way. We can at best deduct and make educated guesses, OR ( God Help us ) OFFER OUR OPINION!!!
How will switching to winter football improve anything in the league? Do you really think crowds will mysterously rise dramatically because we get to play in sh*t weather conditions for a few months of the year?
There are those who argue that summer football hasn't improved attendences, how does this prove we need to switch back? Crowds are NOT related to when we play our football and that is NOT how we will get them up. If we continue to play in sub standard stadiums we will continue to get sub standard crowds december or july.
As for Dublin City, anyone who thinks they're faith was remotely related to a few months of our season being in warm weather is delusional.
Summer football has helped in other regards and therefore is more attractive and better than winter football. It wasn't a miracle cure, it was a slight help however. And a slight improvement, no matter how slight, is better than none...So why on earth would we go back? It's not going to solve anything. If you think crowds will suddenly jump because we're playing in the freezing rain on mud pitches then you're also delusional.
You can prove a correlation easily enough. European results and the leagues ranking have improved recently but league attendances have not. There has therefore been no correlation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelsman
there are a small number (3 maybe 4)of clubs trying to force a debate at council level on this issue,J D wants summer football Most clubs want summer football so this will not get of the ground ,incidently I agree with him on this
If crowds have dropped 20% since summer soccer - which best figures show they have - then you would imagine, ceteris paribus, that the switch has had something to do with that, and that reversing the switch would therefore reverse some of the impact on attendances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Curiously, that's one of the main points the summer soccer advocates sold the idea on. Now they're saying it's irrelevant?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
In fairness, I don't think anyone disagrees with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
Summer.
The main reason for the switch to summer was to improve the European results. Guess what? It's worked.
Going back to winter to suit a couple of clubs and nuuters like keely would be the beginning of the end.
AGAIN do we want to go back to getting hammered in Europe?
KOH
That was one of the reasons, yes. Another of the main reasons was to "avoid competing with the (English) Premiership", boosting attendances and media coverage. Guess what? It hasn't worked. In fact the evidence suggests it's had a negative impact.Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
Results have improved but Irish clubs 'getting hammered in Europe' was already finished before summer soccer was introduced (with the exception of Zimbru which I'll mention to save anyone else having to:( ) largely due to proper full-time squads and much improved coaching and preparation from our participants.Quote:
AGAIN do we want to go back to getting hammered in Europe?
Boez getting hammered by Ferencvaros, Cork getting by a Latvian side and Dundalk getting hammered home and away by a Croatian side would suggest otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry The Saint
If we get better results in Europe at the expense of some crowds going down temporarily then most forward thinking fans would take that.
When the facilities get better and the results in Europe continue then the crowds will surpass any winter season.
BTW what is with your avator?
KOH
I think European results started to improve around 2000/01. That was the year UCD drew home and away against Kyustendil, Shels beat Sloga before drawing in Norway and Bohs beat Aberdeen before winning in Germany. That was also about when full-time teams started coming in. I think the Bohs game in Aberdeen was mentioned as the first time Bohs (or possibly any LoI side) had fielded an all full-time XI. That was the first time since 1994/95 an Irish team had made it through a round in Europe - and even then, it was Sligo scraping past a Maltese team - and the first time in some 20 years that we'd won away from home.Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
The following year, Bohs hammered Maardu and game Helsingborgs a close game. Longford put in a very creditable performance against Lovech and were a couple of minutes away from matching our feat of draws home and away.
2002/03 was an unmitigated disaster, but Dundalk were a First Division side and Shels was a one-off.
In 2003, we started into summer soccer properly - and we won one game and lost seven. Following on from that, we've done very well every year.
Conclusion? Summer football has helped European results, but I think full-time teams, proper preparation and confidence have helped just as much, if not more.
In 2003 we won 2 games in europe. The best preparation is games as we werent full time but we were on a winning streak at that time. You can be full time but if you're playing in winter you will suffer in Europe because you wont have played competitive games.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
KOH
What the hell is your problem? Aren't you supposed to be a mod?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelsman
And if You're part time you'll suffer from not having all your best players available or only training twice a week together or any other number of factors. The point is that NOBODY can categorically say that Summer football has or hasn't worked. European results are better not but IMO full time (and particularly higher wages attracting better players) has helped this more. Crowds are down but In the opinion of some, thats only at cubs who are struggling on the pitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
Somethings are clear, it was introduced with no research and no research has been done to see if its had any effect.
Is that counting InterToto? Didn't have those results to hand (apart from ourselves obviously). Bohs beat Borisov 3-0 and lost 1-0 before losing 1-0 and 4-0 to Rosenborg; Shels lost 3-2 and 1-0 to Olimpija and Derry lost 2-1 and 3-0 to APOEL.Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
Sorry about that, I just got a bit worked up and all.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
:D It's a cautionary example for people with more money than sense (especially people like Rocky Seery who didn't even have a lot of money to begin with). If everyone forgets about CHF some idiot will be doomed to repeat their mistakes! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop