FAI proposals for future of Eircom League...

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

Then why don't ye get bigger attendances?????

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We are getting bigger attendances.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Always glad to oblige, Steve! Though I'll leave my UCD hat off for once.

The problem with the vision you have is that you talk about it as if it's completely achievable. Is it? I don't konw if it is; certainly not within the time-frame you're talking about. I don't think that's a failing of the league in particular - it's just reality. You currently have two or three clubs who can averag over 2000 a game. Nothing in this proposal indicates how we're suddenly going to have ten clubs averaging 5000 a game. No-one I've talked to - even those who share your optimistic vision - can indicate how this proposal will bring about the changes dreamt of.

The notion of a First Division that's not a wilderness is nice as well. This proposal, however, will kill the First Division. You're talking about comparing the bottom Premier team with the top First Division team and letting the one which scores highest into the Premier (again, this is just going on what I've heard). The Premier Division team will obviously score higher (by definition) and so will stay up. That's no grounds for promoting the First Division in general.

I'm curious as to how you reconcile clubs being for the chop with a vibrant First Division also. If you think clubs such as UCD, Dublin City, Kilkenny, Monaghan, etc are for the chop, you're looking at bringing in 2 or 4 new clubs into the First Division, whom you would expect to get 2000 a game within five years. It's five years since Kildare County came into the league. Prior to that you had the influx of '85 - Derry, Bray, Monaghan, EMFA, Newcastlewest and Cobh. Only Derry of those are getting 2000 a game 20 years on, and arguably wouldn't get it in the First Division these days. So on the one hand, you indicate that certain teams are unsustainable, and on the other hand have a vision of these teams - or teams currently lower than them - getting 2000 within five years.

It's all very well talking starry-eyed about 6000 crowds being a regular event, but you - and everyone else - make no attempt to indicate how this proposal is going to achieve that. My vision instead is of the league being dragged further into the mire by law-suits and legal challenges and becoming even more a thing of public mockery by barstoolers.

I'd obviously love to achieve your vision. But I don't see how this can possibly do it. It's pure pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

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I ccept the broad concern behind your post PS. That is, how do we know any of these proposals will actually change anything. The difficulty we have is that we're dealing with human psychology and behaviour - in this instance, the propensity to attend a domestic football match.

Leaving aside the starry-eyed "build it and they will come" approach, there is little that administrators of sport can do and then say 'this will 100% definitely increase attendances - fact' ! They can do stuff that they and/or other people feel will have an impact upon the popularity of their sport, but it is not and never can be such an exact science that they can draw a straight line between what they propose and attendances. If yo accept that then you have one of 2 choices. You either do nothing, for fear of imeprical evidence in a field where one doesn't exist, or you do what you genuinely believe and feel is likely to have the desired impact - but wiithout the hard science to support it.

To bring it back to domestic Irish football specifically. I don't know how long you've been following the game here, but I've been a hard-core EL supporter for 21 years now. Many EL fans have been attending for much, much shorter time-spans. For people who have only been following our game since roughly the millenium, for example, they may not have seen much differnec between the EL now and how it was then. But if you look back 20 years ago, the EL is a dramatically different world. The stadiums are only better in-places, the financial administration is not better, the standard of football is undoubtedly better - but the one obvious area where there's been changes is in attendances.

Back in 1985 when Derry joined the league, there was only one club in the country with a decent fan-base - Shamrock Rovers. Cork City was only one year old at that time, and had very, very few hardcore fans. Bohemians support was noticeably much smaller than it is nowadays, as was Shels. Pat's fans didn't seem to exist. Longford fans could genuinely be counted on one-hand. Bray and Harps fans barely ever reached treble figures. The same is true of Drogheda, Sligo, Waterford.

There are only 3 clubs in the league that have lower attendances now than they did in the 1980's. They are Rovers, Dundalk and Derry (you could alo make a case for Galway as well, but I'm not convinced). All 3 have reasons for their decline in support - Rovers being 20 years in the wilderness, Dundalk being a club in steep decline, and Derry becuase the initial enthusiasm for the team was never going to last.

Therefore, the vast majority of clubs in our league (admittedly, one is quite new) have seen attendances grow over time. Furthermore, most of that growth in fan-bases throughout the league has actually occured in the last 5-10 years (whilst the decline faced by the 3 clubs occured earlier). So my question is this - what specific changes within our league (and there have been many) can anyone point to and say 'that's why Bohs, Shels, Pats, Cork, Drogheda, Harps, Sligo, Longford etc have bigger crowds now than they did 10 or 20 years ago'. I suspect strongly the simple answer is that we can't.

There is no single change/event, or even series of events bar success on the pitch, that can be highlighted to explain the increase in crowds we've had. But we've still undoubtedly had an increase. I suspect the increases have been due to a combination of factors - success on the pitch, facilities, profile etc.

To bring this back to the current FAI proposal. There is little or nothing the FAI can do - and certainly nothing structural - that they can 100% guarantee will increase crowds. There are, however, things they can do which common sense, gut feel and instinct suggest will move the league in a direction in which it is highly likelt to attract more support. Can we draw a straight loine between changes and attendances ? No. But should that therefiore stop us from doing the things that common sense and gut feel suggest are highly likely to have some sort of positive impact ? Certainly not.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Incidentally Steve, do you want to reply to my comments that the new proposal offers to actual path between now and this brave new world?

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Done, my impatient little friend. :) Some of us have work to do.... :p ;)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

What's a "UCD type untenable team" when it's at home?

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A team with few fans, very little chance of increasing their fan base and hence, no future.

Seriously, if UCD are to increase their fanbase in their "massive catchement area", then a name change should be considered.

To further that, the FAI should probably consider dividing Dublin up into regions and give each Dub club a region in which to promote their club and stick to that.

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Originally Posted by Magicme

Ha....yeah give it a go....sure what harm could it do....

Wake up! Giving it a go would mean that at least 10 clubs would disappear coz they would not be financially viable in a lesser league with all the glory and sunshine on the "Premiership"

Agh....memo to self: bite ur tongue and just cry

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So we stay the same then? Clubs who have gates in the double digits going nowhere. You can have all weather pitches and bars etc but what is the point? Year in year out at the lower end of the first division. No offense and its not personal. We had a game postponed in sligo yeras back so we drove to monaghan to see them versus kilkenny. The attendance was 55. Is this the way forward? No wonder barstoolers laugh at the league after monday.

10 clubs wont disappear.

John83 you see nothing about a better run league? Have you read the document? "From 2007 clubs must sign participation agreement and will operate a cap on players' wages and costs which will be 65 per cent of turnover."

That to me is a potentially better run league. Take the blinkers off and see it for what it is. If UCD go down take it on the chin and you can come back up the following season. I'm saying this fully in the knowledge that we are not guaranteed a place in the top flight next season either.

Name changes do not work.

KOH

Just to cut that waffle down to the actual point:

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

...Can we draw a straight loine between changes and attendances ? No. But should that therefiore stop us from doing the things that common sense and gut feel suggest are highly likely to have some sort of positive impact ? Certainly not.

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Your gut feeling better than mine is it?

See, Steve, the problem I have with your post is the fact that you're essentially proposing a system where the current clubs continue in their present leagues, with movement between them being decided on some sort of rotational basis based on who tops one league and props up the other. However, clubs would be regulated by strict adherence to a set of guidelines which calls for all those improvements you've just highlighted to continue on a planned and co-ordinated basis, with penalties for clubs who fail to continue to improve off the field.

Oh my - you've just proposed UEFA Licencing.

What does this proposal contain that wouldn't be achieved by strict adherence to UEFA Licencing? UEFA Licencing is a joke - we know that. So is this. However, if the FAI sat down and made an effort with UEFA Licencing, none of this would be necessary.

I don't see how the FAI can make such a mess of the single-most important thing to happen to our league in years - ever, perhaps - and then expect to be taken seriously when they propose something which is patently nonsense such as the above and which shows absolutely no cause and effect line between the proposal and the vision.

Totally agree NYHoop that 55 fans is not the way forward but I dont think losing the people who are wholeheartedly committed to developing football in this country by cutting their clubs lose from the eL is the way forward either.

I dont want to get drawn into this and all the above are my own opinions and do not reflect the club or anyone else in the club, but I have to say that I am fearful of the wholesale changes that are proposed and feel that given time Licensing would have sorted a lot out.

Of course u would never get personal NYHoop so u had no reason to excuse urself.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

A team with few fans, very little chance of increasing their fan base and hence, no future.

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Strikes me as though you've ignored the "untenable" part. If we're not tenable in the Premier Division, you'd want to tell reality that as we embark on our 11th season in the top flight in the last 12 (or so). If we're really badly out of our depth, we'll get relegated on the pitch.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

Seriously, if UCD are to increase their fanbase in their "massive catchement area", then a name change should be considered.

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Because Bohemians, Shelbourne, Shamrock Rovers and St Patrick's Athletic all incorporate their region's name, do they?

UCD fans. One question. How do ye propose that attendances are increased and hence lead to a better supported league??

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Originally Posted by John83

Just to cut that waffle down to the actual point:

Your gut feeling better than mine is it?

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I'm sorry, but on this issue I think it is.

Particularity as the UCD fans on here are generally working themselves into a lather and letting fear for the future of their club understandably colour their judgement. I'm taking what I think is a more objective view - possibly because I have the luxury of doing so as I don't perceiev my club to be at threat.

So now that you've asked - I think it is.

Also - is it coincidence that the only opposition expressed to these plans so far comes from fans of the smallest clubs ?

Our home support has been increasing constantly over the past few years. There's no reason to believe it won't continue that way.

NYHoop - if a club has 55 fans, they rot in the First Division out of harm's way until they can improve it. (Or else they embark on a silly spending spree and go broke in a fairly short time). Monaghan aren't harming anyone where they are. If they get fans, they'll come up. That's their incentive.

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Originally Posted by northside hoop

Changing the name would lessen the connection with the college, which could mean the college cutting off the life support.

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Bingo

Sullane name changes dont work. Look at CHF for example. A deluded seery thought that by changing the name of Home Farm he would be in the CL in 5 years:D

5 teams from the capital in the whole league is enough.

Magicme dont you think you would be better suited in the Ulster Senior Legaue? That way you would have less travelling, have a decent chance of silverware therefore increased attendances and then in the future there could be a way back into the league via the new A championship league?


KOH

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Originally Posted by northside hoop

Changing the name would lessen the connection with the college, which could mean the college cutting off the life support.

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:rolleyes:

There is no life support from the college. But people will believe whatever suits their own deluded view of things.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I'm sorry, but on this issue I think it is.

Particularity as the UCD fans on here are generally working themselves into a lather and letting fear for the future of their club understandably colour their judgement. I'm taking what I think is a more objective view - possibly because I have the luxury of doing so as I don't perceiev my club to be at threat.

So now that you've asked - I think it is.

Also - is it coincidence that the only opposition expressed to these plans so far comes from fans of the smallest clubs ?

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Did you ever meet Jim Roddy? Seriously? If I hadn't met both of yez, I'd swear blind you were the same person. You both have this utter belief - bordering on arrogance - that the league is on the cusp of something huge and it just takes a small tweak to get it right. But when pressed, neither of yez can actually put forward any sort of path from now to your proposal. Yet you both expect to be taken seriously despite this glaring omission. Quite remarkable. And quite frankly, one of Jim Roddy is more than enough without a clone knocking around...!

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Magicme dont you think you would be better suited in the Ulster Senior Legaue? That way you would have less travelling, have a decent chance of silverware therefore increased attendances and then in the future there could be a way back into the league via the new A championship league?


KOH

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We are a team in the Republic of Ireland so would like to play in the eL. It is something that we could look into but cant see it happening.

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Magicme dont you think you would be better suited in the Ulster Senior Legaue? That way you would have less travelling, have a decent chance of silverware therefore increased attendances and then in the future there could be a way back into the league via the new A championship league?

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How would they? Clearly you have no experience of intermediate/junior soccer in Donegal.

The USL contains teams from Donegal only and I suspect Monaghan wouldn't be too pleased about having to make rediculous journeys to Keadue Rovers or Glenea United regularly...

It's hell for us and we're in the same county :)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Our home support has been increasing constantly over the past few years. There's no reason to believe it won't continue that way.

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Hang on. How is it a "pipe-dream" to predict that wholesale changes to the facilities, stability and appeal of our league will have a positive impact upon attendances, whilst you sit here and proclaim that you fully expect UCD's attendances to increase in future years for absolutely no stated reason whatsoever ??? That's a massive contradiction PS. You can't have it both ways.

Crowds at UCD may have grown over the last few years, but they have likewise across the league in general. So you can't be selective in using the same evidence to support one viewpoint and then to rubbish another.

Any objective individual would place more faith in the changes proposed by the FAI increasing league attendances over time, than in UCD increasing their attendances all things staying the same. Even if you are working off a very low base.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Hang on. How is it a "pipe-dream" to predict that wholesale changes to the facilities, stability and appeal of our league will have a positive impact upon attendances, whilst you sit here and proclaim that you fully expect UCD's attendances to increase in future years for absolutely no stated reason whatsoever ??? That's a massive contradiction PS. You can't have it both ways.

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It's a pipe dream to expect average crowds of 6000 in the Premier in five years, as you put it. It's not a pipe dream to expect UCD's home support to continue its current increasing trend. Rather different pipe-dreams, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Sullane name changes dont work. Look at CHF for example. A deluded seery thought that by changing the name of Home Farm he would be in the CL in 5 years:D

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Yes, but I feel they went about it the wrong way. They tried to win over the support of the whole city and it has not worked.

For fans to adopt a team, they have to be able to associate with that team.

Aren't rovers going to Tallaght because it is a big catchement area and to convert the good people of Tallaght into Rovers fans.

My new names (BTW don't take offence, these are only mockya names)

Shamrock Rovers of Tallaght.

Shelbourne of Drumcondra (for how long I don't know)

St Patricks Athletic of Inchicore

Bohemians of Phibsboro (or whatever area they are moving to)

Blackrock FC (formerly UCD)

Fingal FC (formerly Dublin City - formerly Home Farm Fingal - formerly etc etc)

Now you have to be taking the ****! :D

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Originally Posted by harpskid

How would they? Clearly you have no experience of intermediate/junior soccer in Donegal.

The USL contains teams from Donegal only and I suspect Monaghan wouldn't be too pleased about having to make rediculous journeys to Keadue Rovers or Glenea United regularly...

It's hell for us and we're in the same county :)

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Donegal only? Selfish *******s:D

UCD fans wake up this is good for the league.


KOH

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

UCD fans wake up this is good for the league.

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So I keep hearing. But nobody says how, without just quoting UEFA Licencing verse for verse. Which apparently we have implemented already.

The only criteria for inclusion to the Premiership in my opinion is - on the pitch 100%. UCD and Dublin City have every right to feel aggrived if they get booted down to Division One. Its up to all the other clubs with thier millions of fans to get thier houses in order and ensure that they are better ON the pitch. Anything else is not in the spirit of the game we all love. We can still implement all of the Genesis report without picking and choosing the teams we have in the top flight.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

UCD fans. One question. How do ye propose that attendances are increased and hence lead to a better supported league??

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No response??:confused:

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

No response??:confused:

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Eyes open.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

The only criteria for inclusion to the Premiership in my opinion is - on the pitch 100%. UCD and Dublin City have every right to feel aggrived if they get booted down to Division One. Its up to all the other clubs with thier millions of fans to get thier houses in order and ensure that they are better ON the pitch. Anything else is not in the spirit of the game we all love. We can still implement all of the Genesis report without picking and choosing the teams we have in the top flight.

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As a mons fan that would make me happier than being booted out for other reasons. Its only fair that its results that count.

I really don't want to get involved in this whole debate (I have to say both sides make valid points), but to put the prize money in context, the oprize for the league winners is less than the FAI are paying Bobby Robson per annum as a part-time consultant.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Eyes open.

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Hardly anything to get excited about :rolleyes:

So in 20 years your attendance will have shot up to 1500. WOW amazing :eek:

Good stuff - a perfectly adequate response to your question dismissed with pure sarcasm and not a jot of reasoned fact. Congratulations.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Good stuff - a perfectly adequate response to your question dismissed with pure sarcasm and not a jot of reasoned fact. Congratulations.

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Responded with sarcasm. Well done :rolleyes:

And where in my post was I saying that I was quoting fact? When you have not stated any facts why this proposal will fail.

You still haven't answered my question though. How do you propose to increase your attendances? And I'm talking about big increases!!

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Did you ever meet Jim Roddy? Seriously? If I hadn't met both of yez, I'd swear blind you were the same person. You both have this utter belief - bordering on arrogance - that the league is on the cusp of something huge and it just takes a small tweak to get it right. But when pressed, neither of yez can actually put forward any sort of path from now to your proposal. Yet you both expect to be taken seriously despite this glaring omission. Quite remarkable. And quite frankly, one of Jim Roddy is more than enough without a clone knocking around...!

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Well I don't believe that Jim and I have ever been seen in the same room at the same time, so you might be onto something there.... :D

PS - I've highlighted how there can never be an exact science between what sports administrators do and attendances. That is a fact. You can build the best stadiums, introduce the highest prize money, and bring in the best players in the world - like the Americans did in the 1970's - and still fall flat on your face. Likewise, you can have an average team playing in a poor league out of a rubbish stadium - like Derry City did in 1985 - and attract 10,000+ to home games and take an average of 4,000+ away. Football attendances are about human psychology and human behaviour - not about direct-line cause-and-effect bean counting. This is not and never can be an exact science. Please accept this and stop asking for conclusive proof in an arena where you know it can never exist.

If you accept that there cannot be imperical evidence to conclusively prove that more stable and better funded clubs with closer links to their local community playing out of improved facilities will lead to an increase in attendances then the debate therefore progresses onto one of value judgements - based on common sense, gut feel, and (hopefully) objective analysis. And on these elements I personally believe that the proposals for more stable and better funded clubs playing out iof better facilities is, on balance, likely to have a positive impact upon attendances. We can argue about how much better (and god knows why you're constantly trying to pin me to a figure of 6,000) but we have no conclusive proof so it's moot.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

So I keep hearing. But nobody says how, without just quoting UEFA Licencing verse for verse. Which apparently we have implemented already.

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How? Eh increased prize money, regulated wages, a chance for a first division team to be in the Setanta Cup. Look at the bigger picture. The league is not dying as is but it is just carrying on as usual. This will make the league better and I cannot for a minute understand how anybody with the league at heart doesnt want this to happen.

Sullane its a bit early to be drunk isnt it?:D

KOH

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

clubs with closer links to their local community playing out of improved facilities will lead to an increase in attendances

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Thank you :)

Link to local communities is Vital IMO. Who do UCD represent?? Former students/current students?? Who do Dublin City represent?? The whole of Dublin?? Less than 100 attendance? Hardly.

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Sullane its a bit early to be drunk isnt it?:D

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Do I come accross that way?? :o :D

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

This is not and never can be an exact science. Please accept this and stop asking for conclusive proof in an arena where you know it can never exist.

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The problem is that this is such a radical proposal, with potentially serious effects on certain clubs, that it would want to have some sort of evidence behind it that it's going to work. There's no point just going ahead with it for the craic. If there's no proof that it's going to do anything - as you seem to acknowledge - then it can't be backed. Again, the rest of your post proposes UEFA Licencing. Why don't we just implement that system properly rather than all this nonsense?

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

and god knows why you're constantly trying to pin me to a figure of 6,000

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I apologise. 4000-5000 was your quote.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

You still haven't answered my question though. How do you propose to increase your attendances? And I'm talking about big increases!!

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I don't really see the need to justify my club to you, to be honest. However, links to schools have been introduced in the last four or five years (after we dropped targetting the college and expanded into the surrounding localities), summer soccer camps have been very popular, there've been community projects in disadvantaged areas which have been popular, we're trying the Saturday evening switch as more family friendly, etc., etc.

May I ask as to what any other club is doing that we're not? I don't see any other club recording "big increases!!", as you seem to require.

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Originally Posted by northside hoop

There's a free ground for one. And there's the scholarship sytem for 2. UCD would be basically like ICBINHF without Seery if both of these were removed

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Oh dear God...

Lots of clubs get free grounds from the local council. UCD FC have to pay for every scholarship given.

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

How? Eh increased prize money, regulated wages, a chance for a first division team to be in the Setanta Cup.

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So bring them in and drop the rest of the nonsense...?

Only thing that needs to be dropped is the name change which is embarrassing. The Irish league adopted criteria somewhat similar a few years ago to determine the top division. Honestly dont see the problem. When the dust settles we'll have a better league. AGAIN if UCD are demoted you can get promoted.

This is the turning point for the league. With increased money clubs can improve facilities including proper tv gantries which will mean more tv coverage which will mean, hopfully, improved attendances. The last few years have seen great strides in the league, the summer football was the beginning and these proposals can propel the league forward into a respected, viable entity.

KOH

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Originally Posted by northside hoop

There's a free ground for one.

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As opposed to a council built and owned one? :rolleyes:

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And there's the scholarship sytem for 2.

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Which the club pays for. :rolleyes:
What an utterly ignorant post.