Champions League Final

I am just a wee bit suspicious of Stuttgart's attempt to compare emotions and decisions to a number of Ireland's heartbreaking football moments
Do you and Karlos take it in shifts? :)
But I couldn't help contrasting Rijkaard's patient response to that of Van Gaal's panic attack with the opposition down to 10 men. Rijkaard embodies the classic Dutch approach.
As much a turning point as Larsson's entry was, so too was the exit of the substituted Van Bommel on the hour.
Deco looks almost a reformed player, only one blatant dive.

I accept most of the criticisms of Henry's after match comments, but two comments he made (which I've slightly reconfigured) I agree with:

The so-called stars were overshadowed by Larsson's contribution, who those in the know (such as Henry) have always recognised as class.

If Puyol & Marquez had been booked it'd have made Henry's task easier.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

On the punditry last night, the bar I was in (Fitzsimon's in Temple Bar) had Sky Sports on and all Andy Gray kept harping on (and on, and on, and..) for the entire first half was how "the referee has ruined this as a spectacle by not allowing the goal".

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50% of all Andy Gray's commentaries consist of harping on about the referee, no matter what the game.

I thought Henry's comments about Ronaldinho were interesting - hardly the comments of someone on his way to Barca. Strangely, if Arsenal had won I'd say he would definitely have left the club. Now he has unfinished business and there's a greater possibility of him staying.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

In fairness he grabbed Eto by the ankle. It wasn't just momentum carrying him into him.

Oh and I like Lehmann by the way and thought his after match interview was excellent

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Yeah, I concede that I think he made sure he took Eto down (again, something I can say from experience, it's something you just do) but I think he'd probably have brought him down anyway. Still, it was split-second rash judgment, not outright cheating. Goalkeepers are the players far more exposed to a straight red card than any other, sometimes harshly, sometimes not. Lehmann's red card was not harsh. In fairness to Lehmann , he was out very quickly, not many forwards are as quick as Eto, but yes, it was obviously an error of judgment.

I thought the interview was excellent too.

Enjoyed it myself, especially Henkes contribution and the icing on the cake was Henry giving him a special mention in the post match interview!!

Flicked between ITV ans Sky and both sets of commentators drove me nuts!

- Arsenal played extremely well and Its hard to take when you hold out for 75mins but end up losing. Toure, Gilberto, Hleb & Llunberg put in good shifts but generally they all played well with 10 men.

- Henry played well in spurts but missed 2 one on ones which was critical. His booking was wrong but he should look at bit harder at his own contribution.

- Lehamanns challenge was shocking - Im sure Barca would have preferred a 1-0 lead and 11 v 11 (decision was to arsenals benefit). Effectively it was a2 footed tackle outside the area. If an outfield player had done it, goal scoring opportunity or not - he would have been off.

- The freekick award was incorrect for Eboue's dive. In fact by the letter of the law Eboue should have been sent off for a 2nd booking. (decision was to arsenals benefit).

- Eto'o's goal was declared onside by Sky Pundits - He looked level but as Stuttgart says it could easily not have been given as you do see week in week out.

- With regards Henrys comments on the Ref. I think Karlos said they where bang on the nail. "The ref should have been wearing a Barcelona shirt"?? Really? I have to disagree, the ref had an average game. Lehmanns indiscipline, Henrys poor finishing were well above the ref in terms of who should take the blame for Arsenals defeat- if anything the ref gave them a helping hand on the key decisions.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

In fairness he grabbed Eto by the ankle. It wasn't just momentum carrying him into him.

Oh and I like Lehmann by the way and thought his after match interview was excellent

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I agree, Lehmann's interviews and comments are usually laid back, interesting and intelligent, even humorous. It's in contrast to the type of character you might think he is from some of his on field OTT emotions.

Alumina's save from Eto was superb. Even with the help of slow motion the deflection was just about perceptable.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I

Tell me honestly Neil, is your dislike of Lehmann (which I understand) directing your opinion on this? If it was Shay Given would it have been one of those things that can happen a 'keeper or the actions of a cheat?

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If Shay Given had of done it I would have been very angry with him and I would have blamed him for the incident rather than blame the ref. It seems that players blame refs rather than fellow players. Thats why the comparison with Roy Keane earlier was not accurate as i think rightly or wrongly Keane blames his own players and himself for mistakes made in games rather than the referees. This is after the game I must say, there is nobody better at "talking" to the ref during a game than keane.

I think Eto'o made sure Lehmann took him down, he released the ball rather than shot and kept running in a straight line. At this point Lehmann had already dived to stop the (anticipated) shot, and it was too late to get out of the away.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I think Eto'o made sure Lehmann took him down, he released the ball rather than shot and kept running in a straight line. At this point Lehmann had already dived to stop the (anticipated) shot, and it was too late to get out of the away.

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I'm afraid not, Its quite clear in the replay that Lehman grabbed his foot after missing the ball. Eto'o was away had he not done that.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

At this point Lehmann had already dived to stop the (anticipated) shot, and it was too late to get out of the away.

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then surely had he saved that shot he would have received a red card for handball outisde the box anyway

The referees bad decision was blowing the whistle too soon on Lehmanns foul - once he blew the whistle had no choice but to send him off. However it was Lehmanns deliberate foul which forced the refs hand. No foul would have meant no need for ref to make bad decision.

I thought Henry was very poor especially the missed chance at 1-0. World Clas players have to produce it at the highest level & he fluffed it when he had that chance. Much easier to score when playing Sunderland.

Barca deserved to win. I think if Etos goal had been allowed & Arsenal still at 11 men would have created the space behind the Arsenal defence for them to expose.

I always wondered if Larsson was actually nay good as the SPL hardly a challenge but he has impressed when seen him for Barcelona this year.

In the end the Barcelona substitutes won the game.

RTE commentary was ok but anytime i flicked over to Sky Andy Gray was in full moan mood. :eek:

i feel a bit cheated that barca won with two jammy goals, second one a pure mishap by a known donkey beletti

as a neutral the clever skillfull football was played by arsenal

Ron never turned up so us neutrals were left feeling shortchanged by the whole thing

First barca goal couldn't be called Jammy. great play and a class finish. Winner obviously a bit lucky

theres a brilliant etoo's angle view of the 1st one and almunia clearly gifts him the inside post - criminal goalkeeping

id kill someone if they did that in astro - etoo just passed it in, didnt even need to shoot


"use your hands almunia!" :D

Who was the first Arsenal player booked by the way? (Not Henry - think it was Eboue?) He was fairly lucky to stay on the pitch too - nasty challenge with studs up nowhere near the ball.

Almunia was fairly poor for both goals - beaten at his near post and through his legs. Arsenal should have kept Graham Stack instead! :)

Cop on wws, it was a good finish at a tight angle, he switched to his right foot to shape up for a shot across goal but dragged into the near corner.
It would have been correct to say that Barca can win without Ronaldinho playing well while Henry could star and still lose.
However, don't think Henry was as brilliant as made out by some.
Was lively in the first twenty minutes but still missed given the chance (well maybe he created the chance aswell). Wasn't in the game much after that imo.
Ronaldinho had a very quiet night though his pass for the sending off was sweet.
Delighted for Larsson.
Got one season at a shot of proper glory and took it.
Well deserved.

Actually, on the commentary, I was watching the match in the Montrose last night, and they had both RTÉ and Sky Sports on. RTÉ was a whole five seconds ahead of Sky, but the main telly was Sky and the sound was on the Sky version. So you'd be watching Sky, watching Ronaldinho lining up a free-kick and then remember you could look at the RTÉ telly to see what he did with it while he was still lining it up on Sky! Moved seats after half-time to watch RTÉ, but you could still hear everyone else in the bar reacting five seconds later to what we'd already seen. Wierd...

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Who was the first Arsenal player booked by the way? (Not Henry - think it was Eboue?) He was fairly lucky to stay on the pitch too - nasty challenge with studs up nowhere near the ball.

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Yep Eboue - same guy who dived shortly afterwards to win the freekick resulting Arsenals goal..............lucky to stay on the pitch IMO.

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Originally Posted by pete

I always wondered if Larsson was actually nay good as the SPL hardly a challenge but he has impressed when seen him for Barcelona this year.

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Has scored a couple in a Uefa Cup final as well as a semi final winner + the numerous goals in CL games for Celtic. - His class was never in any doubt through my admittedly green tinted specs!!

That happens in every telly on McCurtain Street in Cork.
Must be an extra Sky connection or something cos its a good 3 or 4 seconds behind.
I doubt Larry got his ticket anyway unfortunately.
Meant to have been thousands looking for them at crazy prices.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Actually, on the commentary, I was watching the match in the Montrose last night, and they had both RTÉ and Sky Sports on. RTÉ was a whole five seconds ahead of Sky, but the main telly was Sky and the sound was on the Sky version. So you'd be watching Sky, watching Ronaldinho lining up a free-kick and then remember you could look at the RTÉ telly to see what he did with it while he was still lining it up on Sky! Moved seats after half-time to watch RTÉ, but you could still hear everyone else in the bar reacting five seconds later to what we'd already seen. Wierd...

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Yeah it happens on most TVs. The digital signal is about 5 seconds slower than the normal signal. At home If I watch RTE through the digital tv its about 5 seconds behind the the RTE through the normal TV.]]


Oh by the way Arsenal now have the lovely record of losing in all 3 European Finals, Champions Cup, Cup Winnners Cup and Uefa Cup.


Finally I do have to laugh at Henry saying he never saw ETo for the whole night etc etc. Well he must have bad eyesight cause Eto was at the centre of Lehmann getting sent off and he managed to score a goal something Henry failed to do.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Yeah it happens on most TVs. The digital signal is about 5 seconds slower than the normal signal.

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Thats correct. RTE are also incapable of matching the sound with the pictures so the commentary is maybe 1-2 seconds ahead of the pictures. Really p!sses me off at times. BTW they transmitted differently from the source.

Pete the commentary delay is different to the delay that I am talking about.


The digital signal whether it be RTE or Sky that you are watching is about 5 seconds behind the normal signal on your TV through the aerial or through piped TV. So if I watch RTE through my tv and swtich to RTE on the Digital there will be about a 5 second difference. In addition to that RTE also have their commentary out of sync .

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

On the punditry last night, the bar I was in (Fitzsimon's in Temple Bar) had Sky Sports on and all Andy Gray kept harping on (and on, and on, and..) for the entire first half was how "the referee has ruined this as a spectacle by not allowing the goal". Not mentioning any of the play, or how the game was progressing. Oh, and for those who watched the build up on Sky Sports, there were 20 other players involved in the game, not just Ronaldinho and Henry

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Cannot agree more. I think the first time they mentioned Eto'o, Cesc or whoever was when the game started. Andy Gray always takes the opposite opinion to the awarded decision. He moaned about not allowing the goal and sending Lehmann off. Let's face it, if you want to stop someone scoring a goal then you drag them down and face the consequences. That's what happened. I know that it's very difficult for a 'keeper to stop after committing themselves and maybe that is worth looking into. But as well as catching Eto'o, Lehman clearer hooked his ankle to make doubley sure

Also interesting. Jens Lehmann didn't concede a goal in the Champions League all season. Didn't play v Ajax or Thun. Still, not much consolation. Found it hard to believe that he's also the first ever sending off in the final

speed of light and sound eh?!?!

they haven't invented a way to beam 'live' coverage into peoples living rooms as of yet

you'll always get delays of varying amounts

try go to fraziers on champions league night - every second telly is beaming back at a different time! causes chaos!

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Originally Posted by Roadend

I'm afraid not, Its quite clear in the replay that Lehman grabbed his foot after missing the ball. Eto'o was away had he not done that.

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I doubt very much if Eto'o would have stayed on his feet even if Lehmann did not grab his foot.

Are you saying you don't think it was a red card offence?

I've seen it a few times replayed on Sky News in last few minutes and I think Lehmann paid the price for a poor starting position. Couldn't see it properly - my desk TV is only about 3 inches by 2 inches!

If he was further back Eto would have had far more work to do to beat him. Against that though, Eto is very quick. Lehmann was quick out and would have beaten slower players to the ball. The Arsenal back four must take a share of the blame too as they were picked open very easily (OK, brilliantly) by being so square. I heard it said last night that Cole was the one who played him on but have yet to see it properly since.

I still think it was initially just a misjudgment and a red card is hard to argue with.

It was definitely Cole who kept him onside (by about 4/5 yards)

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Originally Posted by razor

I doubt very much if Eto'o would have stayed on his feet even if Lehmann did not grab his foot.

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You're right, I couldn't see him wanting to score a goal in the CL final, which he would clearly have done had Lehman not caught his ankle.

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Originally Posted by razor

I doubt very much if Eto'o would have stayed on his feet even if Lehmann did not grab his foot.

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Whether Eto'o would've dived or not is irrelevant and extremely speculative. Lehmann caught him. He deserved to go. Simple.

Whether people are arguing over and over about whether advantage should've been played, again is extremely speculative. A cyclical argument over and over again.

Lehmann committed a red card offence. Eto'o was in control of the ball, running towards goal, no defensive cover. Whether Giuly put the ball in or not, Lehmann still should've been sent off.

For those like ITV who think their lovely game was spoiled, tough. You can't avoid sending players off for red card offences just so as people can enjoy a nice game. How about if Lehmann punched Eto'o, but Giuly scored? Was it just because he *only* caught his foot that makes it ok to show just a yellow?

I wonder if anyone saw the Eboue 'tackle' on Van Bronckhorst in the first half which he only got booked for? He must have caught the Essien disease.:D

The referee has just been interviewed on TV and very magnanimously said that in hindsight he'd preferred to have waited - he'd have awarded the goal & booked Lehmann.

Again, I have to draw comparison to the Petr Cech foul in last year's semi final at Anfield. His was actually a high, dangerous challenge but in my opinion a yellow card and the concession of a goal was punishment enough. I think the game's gone red card mad these days. It used to be a shameful event, now red cards are two to a penny.

I think the ref was wrong to book Henry, but the Barcelona player made it look like a foul with the way he fell and it's hard to fault the ref in those circumstances. I though the ref was very honest & courageous facing the cameras. God help any referee that gives a big decision against an English team these days. I do think he could have protected Henry better but that's about my only criticism of him.

Jeez I'm bored of this already.....

He got sent off, we've all got our opinions of it. Now what's the odds on Barca winning again next year? :)

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Originally Posted by drinkfeckarse

Jeez I'm bored of this already.....

He got sent off, we've all got our opinions of it. Now what's the odds on Barca winning again next year? :)

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You can get 9/4 on the CL winner being a Spanish club.

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Originally Posted by wws

speed of light and sound eh?!?!

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It has very little to do with that. It's not like RTE have a gigantic loudspeaker in Paris, broadcasting directly. :p

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Originally Posted by Junior

- With regards Henrys comments on the Ref. I think Karlos said they where bang on the nail. "The ref should have been wearing a Barcelona shirt"?? Really? I have to disagree, the ref had an average game. Lehmanns indiscipline, Henrys poor finishing were well above the ref in terms of who should take the blame for Arsenals defeat- if anything the ref gave them a helping hand on the key decisions.

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I haven't checked back but I think I said said his comments on the performance of Eto'o and Ronaldinho were spot on. I do agree however with Henry's comments on the referee's actual performance (maybe not the manner he said them though). poor poor quality for a major final. Helping hand or not on some issues, the ref got so many things wrong that would have changed the game. The sending off was about the only thing he got right and had the game finished 1-0 to Arsenal, I'm sure there would be plently here saying he actually got that wrong too :)

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Originally Posted by drinkfeckarse

Now what's the odds on Barca winning again next year? :)

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Can't see it happening. Larsson (a very underrated player who is off this summer) got them out of jail last night. His brilliant passes were the only thing that un-did Arsenal. Without him Barca looked ordinary and Arsenal, packing the midfield, had many chances on the break. Despite having a man advantage, and probably man for man a better team than Arsenal they were outplayed for much of the game by a team who got it tactically very right.

Barca are far from invincable, Atletico totally outfoxed them twice this season.

And when I was in the Da Luz on the 28th March, I saw Benfica give them a lashing too (indeed it was only the denial of a clear handball that saw Benfica escape with a draw).

They are a good side, but a decent manager, with a fairly good squad, can come up with a plan to smother them.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

If Shay Given had of done it I would have been very angry with him and I would have blamed him for the incident rather than blame the ref. It seems that players blame refs rather than fellow players. Thats why the comparison with Roy Keane earlier was not accurate as i think rightly or wrongly Keane blames his own players and himself for mistakes made in games rather than the referees. This is after the game I must say, there is nobody better at "talking" to the ref during a game than keane.

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But Neil, nobody including the Arsenal players are blaming the ref for the sending off. I don't how many times I have to say it, but he got it right.

It's the 101 other incidents that shaped the game that is the issue. The constant refusal to book and to send off, if he was to interpret the laws as he did with the Lehmann incident, did shape the game. A tackle from behind under the current laws is a red card. I don't agree with it but it's there in black & white for anyone to see. :)

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Oh by the way Arsenal now have the lovely record of losing in all 3 European Finals, Champions Cup, Cup Winnners Cup and Uefa Cup.
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Spoken like a true Spurs fan.....opps wait, you jumped off that ship a week ago after Wenger poisioned them (or so the conspiracy goes!!) (i'm joking, no need for a a factual retort!) :)


Of course these are the type of facts that keep the intelligent contributors on spursweb occupied when all they can remember about the last major final they were in was that they lost to Blackburn Rovers and it was in February (you know, february, when all the MAJOR finals are played!) :D :)

I think Barca will be a force over the next five years, maybe winning another one or even two big ears in that time.
Messi is a long way from reaching fruition and Ronaldinho, Xavi and Eto'o will hit their prime over the next few years. That's 4 World Class players, they've a good manager imo and if they can keep a good quality around those 4, they could be a real team to remember.