Protests in France

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22/04/2006, 12:22 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

what bit of 'cheaper labour and transport costs' are you struggling with?:D

despite your invective, the first major piece of industrial news to effect france since the strikes has gone their way. france is considered a better place to manufacture than flexible england.

sorry to rain on your perfect economic theory.

Sorry RTID - but you're way off the mark. Peugeot have been castigated in the English media for spinning a lie on this whole issue.

Independent figures show that, despite having a lower level of automation and an older factory, the Peugeot facory being closed in Coventry actually costs LESS per vehicle than Poissy does. This despite the fact that Peugeot insisted on shipping in the various parts to Coventry from France, when they could've got them just as easily/cheaply in Britain.

It's not economics that are at play here, but politics. The bottom line is that Peugeot wanted to close a factory somewhere, as since they've opened up factories in Eastern Europe they've had spare capacity. They were never going to opt to close down a French factory over an English one. Ignoring the astronomical costs in making people redundant in France, as a French company they will maintain a production presence in France until the day Peugeot ceases to exist.

So it's not about transport costs (even though Peugeot have kept them artifically high for their English operations by favouring French suppliers) or cheaper Labour in England v France. It's about much, much cheaper labour in Eastern Europe, ta consequent need to shed jobs in Western Europe, and a political decision to do that only in operations outside of France.

Sorry to rain on your perfect marxist theory...
22/04/2006, 3:01 AM
Roverstillidie

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

. Peugeot have been castigated in the English media for spinning a lie on this whole issue.

from a derry fan?

well if the english media are against it...
24/04/2006, 12:47 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

from a derry fan?

well if the english media are against it...

Not sure what you're trying to suggest here RTID.

Regardless of what the media source was, an independent automobile manufacturing trade body/consultancy has confirmed the relative costs of vehicle production in Poissy v Coventry. I don't give a feck if that information hadda been recounted in El Pais or the Sligo Champion - the report would still have said the same thing.

Or are you suggesting that the broadsheet English media (I'm not talking about the Sun...) can't possibly be factually correct on this matter, regardless of what they say ?
24/04/2006, 7:28 AM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Or are you suggesting that the broadsheet English media (I'm not talking about the Sun...) can't possibly be factually correct on this matter, regardless of what they say ?

Are you suggesting that they couldn't possibly be bias either? I mean, they've been shown to be wrong about the French economic figures....
24/04/2006, 5:54 PM
Roverstillidie

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Not sure what you're trying to suggest here RTID.

Regardless of what the media source was, an independent automobile manufacturing trade body/consultancy has confirmed the relative costs of vehicle production in Poissy v Coventry. I don't give a feck if that information hadda been recounted in El Pais or the Sligo Champion - the report would still have said the same thing.

Or are you suggesting that the broadsheet English media (I'm not talking about the Sun...) can't possibly be factually correct on this matter, regardless of what they say ?

im sorry, i didnt think i was being in any way subtle.

i believe a partizan english (or wherever) media are going to spin this in an anti french way. im surprised to see a derry fan championing the english media over whats actually happening in the real world.

the reality here is despite all the internet economists in the world, money talks, and a major mnc decided to do business in france over england withinn weeks of the row, despite all the free market nonsense that people on this forum spouted. peugeout did not make a political decision, they made a business one.

the cost of doing business, especially manufacturing, asppears to be cheaper in france. so why all the 'french are in a mess' posts. just because they dont massage their unemployment figures like the brits do (and to a lesser extent the irish) do.

and im not a marxist, i have a masters in economics as it happens, but no thereshold for preachyeconomic bull!!
25/04/2006, 11:59 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

im sorry, i didnt think i was being in any way subtle.

i believe a partizan english (or wherever) media are going to spin this in an anti french way. im surprised to see a derry fan championing the english media over whats actually happening in the real world.

I fully expect that some of the English media would try to put an 'anti-French' spin on this story - the tabloids. but I have more faith in broadsheets like the Independent, Guardian, FT or even the Times on an issue like this. That faith has been developed over decades of reading them alongside other media on issues like this (I would be more sceptical of their approach on other issues). I'm sorry if this doesn't fit the expected stereo-type of a Derry man being anti the Englihs media. You may not agree with my view on some of the english papers, and that's your decision. But I'd question why you consume any media if you are so indiscriminately cynical about it all.

Regardless of any expected spin from the papers, are you challenging the independent industry figures that show that Poissy actually has a higher per-vehcile production cost than Coventry ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

the reality here is despite all the internet economists in the world, money talks, and a major mnc decided to do business in france over england withinn weeks of the row, despite all the free market nonsense that people on this forum spouted. peugeout did not make a political decision, they made a business one.

No RTID - the reality here is that an historically French company that is firmly entrenched in their nation's psyche was faced with scaling back production in England or France, and took the very obvious political decision to not sh!t on their own door-step. I cannot understabnd how you fail to see that this is what has happened, particularly as independent automobile production statistics support that this is really what has happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

the cost of doing business, especially manufacturing, asppears to be cheaper in france. so why all the 'french are in a mess' posts. just because they dont massage their unemployment figures like the brits do (and to a lesser extent the irish) do.

Nonesense. The only element of employment that is arguably cheaper in France is wages. That is not true of every sector or industry though. Furthermore, suppressed wages are evidence of labour availability/abundance as wages only go up to any real extent when you have to pay more to attract orkers. So lower wages in France is as much a reflection of the extra capacity/unemployment within their economy.

However - wages only represent a proprtion of the costs involved in employing someone. There are also recruitemnt costs, contributions to the state for every employee on your books, and the costs of reducing staff numbers. On the last 2 of those 3 figures, France is significantly more expensive than the UK. Furthermore - in many sectors (particularly skilled one) recruitment costs are also higher in France, due to a shortage of many key skills within their workforce (the reason why is quoted below).

As for massaging employment stats - all governments do this to some extent (admittedly some more than others). But it is asbsolutely absurd to pretend that France does not have any economic problems at the moment, let alone that the only difference between the UK and France is massaged figures. To quote a French politician himself (Francois Bayrou)

Quote:

"If France were a company, it would already have been declared bankrupt. If it were a family, the bailiffs would be banging at the door".

To quote a recent article about Segolene Royal (politician many expect to be France's first female leader) in the Sunday Times magazine :

Quote:

"France might have some of the world's most dynamic companies, but it is in dreadful shape. The economy grew by a mere 1.4% in 2005, and wealth per person has been overtaken by Britain and Ireland's. While many of the brightest emigrate in search of better job opportunities - London is one of the favourite destinations - the state is piling up debt to support the rising health and retirement costs of an ageing population and mass unemployment : almost a quarter of potential workers under 26 are on the dole, compared with 13% in Britain. And as public debt increases, France's shrinking population currentlyu works shorter hours than those in most advanced countries. Something has to give.

(That article was written before the Peugeot closure was announced, btw.)

THIS is the reality of what is happening in France ! I am baffled as to why some on this thread are determined to bury their head in the sand on this, but the writing is on the wall people !!

As for the asserttion that being an economist somehow prevents you from being a Marxist - there are plenty of Marxist Economists in the world ! :)

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