Eircom League votes on radical revamp

Why is everyone knocking this idea?
Is it out of fear your club wont be selected :confused:

The league needs to change and while the FAI are a shower of Muppets I think this idea is a good one! Whatever happens you can bet on it that the Premier will be made up of a minimum of 10 teams. So its going to be no use the FAI saying you need 40,000 seats and a fairground out the back is it?

The 10 best placed teams are going to be picked as it gives the marketing people the best possible chance of making a GO of it! Its a fresh start and I think its worth taking a shot?

As was stated there will be ranking 1 to 22 on your final league placing so if Shels finish 13th (i.e. last in the premier) and Athlone 11th (i.e. 1st in the First) and both are equal in other aspects then Athlone will get the nod. Remember that there is no use having 3 teams in the premier so it will come to league placing and the higher up you are the better your chance. Even if people are saying UCD and Dublin City are not in the shake up they can do their chances no harm by finishing as far up the table as possible. There are going to be lots of teams with poor grounds and crowds so the FAI cant set the bar too high.

So Worse Case scenario

Your club doesn't make it into the 10/12 team premier, big deal.. You will then see the criteria used to get into the premier and your club will set out to match or better this and get promoted ? I think you are all being short sighted and thinking of your own clubs instead of the bigger picture for the soccer in this country.

The league badly needs standards and EL clubs are not making money today so without accepting the FAI deal and trying to make a go of it what else do you suggest?

It needs a shake up to capture public attention. Something that can be marketed as a new product and not just going for a 10 to 12 and back to 10 team league every few seasons.

If Shels are not 1 of the 10/12 best placed teams to take the league forward then I'd accept it and support my team in an effort to get promoted.

I think most people aren't against it, they'd just like to know more detail before the vote. That's a perfectly reasonable position, and it's a total farce that this is going to a vote before people even know exactly what they're voting on. Also, as pointed out before, if the process isn't watertight it could lead to courtcases, rows and yet more bad publicity. I think most people are all for this, they just want it done right, not rushed through in a half-assed manner.

I'm against any factors which cannot be quantified coming into the equation (marketabilty etc)

The more I think about this the more I think it should be voted down. If the FAI want to merge with the league they could have at least got the initial vote right. It's a total insult to the league that they have failed to provide a more detailed description of their plans. The clubs should reject this so that the FAI see that the league won't accept this crap. This is a massive step for the league, and it simply has to be done properly. It really wouldn't have taken a lot to get this right, why didn't they?

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Originally Posted by higgins

Why is everyone knocking this idea?
Is it out of fear your club wont be selected :confused:

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Yes, in a nutshell.

But not only that, it's the possibility that you could be relegated despite winning the league - the FAI are going to pick their favourite ten teams and sod the rest. They are going to pack the eL board with their people so nobody can dissent any more. They have somehow managed to find the only parts of the Genesis Report with any merit, discarded them and gone with the rest. It would kill the 12 teams who don't make the Premier Division, and probably one or two who do make it. In short, it would kill Irish football. How this is good for Irish football, and how some people can't see this, is beyond me.

The support from Galway fans for this is pathetic. The only club to have had a forum with Genesis - even the NLSA has had a very negative reaction to a suggestion of a forum with Genesis. Genesis evidently told them that they were going to be promoted on absolutely no other merits than being based in a city. Short-termism in the extreme.

you may as well have a league based on who can sell the most shirts,such **** ideas,typical FAI!! apart from the playoff teams palying non-league teams

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Originally Posted by Rovers1

you may as well have a league based on who can sell the most shirts,such **** ideas,typical FAI!! apart from the playoff teams palying non-league teams

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At a wild guess the 10 clubs would be, based on nothing more than a hunch but also a fair? geographical spread.

Shamrock Rovers
Shelbourne
Waterford United
Cork City
Limerick
Galway United
Derry City
Athlone Town
Longford Town
Drogheda United


Not saying I'd agree with any of it but have in the past few months been sounded out for an opinion by a number of parties into what they were effictively promoting as a "franchise" set-up.

Meet these criteria* and be from these geographic areas and you can join our "elite" club.

*Whatever criteria they decide is in their own best interests.

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Originally Posted by higgins

Even if people are saying UCD and Dublin City are not in the shake up they can do their chances no harm by finishing as far up the table as possible.

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Just noticed this. That's b0llox. The FAI have quite clearly picked their 10 teams. Everyone else can sod off for all they care.

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Originally Posted by higgins

So Worse Case scenario

Your club doesn't make it into the 10/12 team premier, big deal.. You will then see the criteria used to get into the premier and your club will set out to match or better this and get promoted ?

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How does a club go about increasing it's potential fanbase? We're building 500 more apartments in Belfield, will that help?

As for our marketability, we've recently launched a new crest, I hope that's taken into account during the fair and transparent process I expect at the end of next season.

What is a fair geographical spread? Something that takes account of demograpics or just sheer hectares?:confused:

Higgins, I don't put time, money and energy into my club to see it get relegated for off the field matters. I'm not some blind patriot who would watch my club get fecked over and acquiesce as it's for the good of the Irish game. Not that I consider this for the good of the Irish game. I think it will in fact give rise to stagnation.

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Originally Posted by soccerc

Shamrock Rovers
Shelbourne
Waterford United
Cork City
Limerick
Galway United
Derry City
Athlone Town
Longford Town
Drogheda United

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Quite possible alright. And therein lies the problem. You've got Waterford, who had serious financial troubles the past year, were utter cr@p and were nearly relegated. You've got Rovers, who were relegated. You've got Athlone, Galway and Limerick, neither of whom made an impression in the First Division last season. This league would be far weaker than the current one. Good teams are being actively hounded out. And you've got people who are in favour of this?! People who think we should reduce the quality of the Premier (no offence to any of the teams mentioned, obviously) to improve it?! "Big" clubs are being rewarded despite a hsitory of not being able to take advantage of their bigness. Utter nonsense. Disgrace, in fact, would be a better word.

[QUOTE=Poor Student]What is a fair geographical spread? Something that takes account of demograpics or just sheer hectares?:confused:

/QUOTE]

I never said it was a fair geographical spread thus the question mark after fair.

Personally I don't think geography should be considered, clubs should be judged on their sporting merit along with other factors such as financial stability, facilities and resources, short and long term achiveables.

What must be borne in mind here is that there is a perceived rump within the league and those clubs are generally the newer smaller clubs while others believe they have more strength and influence. Not prepared to go on record but I'd be very surprised if further selected leaks do not reach our media in the coming days ;)

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I'm against any factors which cannot be quantified coming into the equation (marketabilty etc)

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i'd have to agree with this. there's no possible equation or criteria that will satisfy everyone. it's impossible to come to an absolute decision about what ten clubs deserve to be in the top tier. matters such as history certainly can not be quantified, shams should defo be considered to be a top 10 side but they are currently in the mire but have fans to eventually take them back where they belong. dublin city might be grand now but u never know what might happy seery&then they could just be a kilkenny or monaghan within months(no offence lads)

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Originally Posted by Red4Eva

there's no possible equation or criteria that will satisfy everyone. it's impossible to come to an absolute decision about what ten clubs deserve to be in the top tier.

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Nonsense. 12 teams deserve to be in the Premier next year. They're the 12 teams we spent last season deciding. They are Bohs, Bray, Cork, Derry, Drogheda, Dublin City, Longford, Shels, Pat's, UCD, Waterford and Sligo.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Yes, in a nutshell.
The support from Galway fans for this is pathetic. The only club to have had a forum with Genesis - even the NLSA has had a very negative reaction to a suggestion of a forum with Genesis. Genesis evidently told them that they were going to be promoted on absolutely no other merits than being based in a city. Short-termism in the extreme.

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:rolleyes:
Ah the "club" invited Genesis to come down and have an open forum.Don't have a go at Galway fans just because we have been told we will be in the elete leahue.We'll be there on merit as will any other team who gets there.The league needs re-structuring...it has to start somewhere.If you want to talk about getting there on football grounds...GUFC will win the league this year anyway.;)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Nonsense. 12 teams deserve to be in the Premier next year. They're the 12 teams we spent last season deciding. They are Bohs, Bray, Cork, Derry, Drogheda, Dublin City, Longford, Shels, Pat's, UCD, Waterford and Sligo.

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i highlighted the word deserve for a reason refering to what clubs the fai will deem deserving of a place in their fantastic new league

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Nonsense. 12 teams deserve to be in the Premier next year. They're the 12 teams we spent last season deciding. They are Bohs, Bray, Cork, Derry, Drogheda, Dublin City, Longford, Shels, Pat's, UCD, Waterford and Sligo.

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With respect pineapple, some of them don't as there is now way they have the facilities deemed neccesary by the club license

Not to burst your bubble Conor but the Genisis bods and their backers seem to have a slight tendancy to tell that to everyone! It suits them to do so- the more clubs believe they'll be in this brave new world that will cure all the ills of the Irish football scene, the more will vote their plans through and hence justify paying Genisis a large amount of money to get a lot of stuff wrong and point out a bunch of obvious stuff.

Incidentally- why the hell would anyone be bothered to watch the first this year is this goes through- it'd be totally pointless. How are we meant to get players to sign if there may be no chance of promotion? Why bother watching Galway play out a meaningless season if they're going to definately go up anyway? If you're in the premier, why bother having a first team budget, spend everything on the ground for a year instead, sure you can't be ranked lower than 14th anyway! The whole thing is crazy.

I do see where your coming from G harps.It will be odd playing in a league knowing that if you win it you might not get promoted.....only in Ireland:D .But i still am FOR the changes.....the leahue does need a revamp.But if there was an alternative way of doing things then i'd be open to them.

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Originally Posted by soccerc

At a wild guess the 10 clubs would be, based on nothing more than a hunch but also a fair? geographical spread.

Shamrock Rovers
Shelbourne
Waterford United
Cork City
Limerick
Galway United
Derry City
Athlone Town
Longford Town
Drogheda United

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Just curious but why are Bohs out of this. We have the biggest support in Dublin based on the attendances here, not much more than Shels but still the biggest. We own our own ground, unlike Shels, Rovers and sort of Pats who own most of theirs. We are the oldest club and after Rovers probably the best known in Dublin. also to Bohs fans where do these rumours come from that the FAI want us out? Not doubting it but is there not an over reaction to rumours.

Lastly the proposal is a joke. Already fed up with the league but if this happens and we end up in Dalymount with Shels, think I will just forget about this joke of a league.

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Originally Posted by chippie0001

Just curious but why are Bohs out of this. We have the biggest support in Dublin based on the attendances here, not much more than Shels but still the biggest. We own our own ground, unlike Shels, Rovers and sort of Pats who own most of theirs. We are the oldest club and after Rovers probably the best known in Dublin. also to Bohs fans where do these rumours come from that the FAI want us out? Not doubting it but is there not an over reaction to rumours.

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and Sligo Rovers too?:confused:.

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Originally Posted by Conor H

:rolleyes:
Ah the "club" invited Genesis to come down and have an open forum.

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The NLSA also invited Genesis to an open forum. They weren't interested. They weren't even interested in the second consultation mentioned in their own report. You can't blame people for being cynical when the only people Genesis are talking to are from the club who stand to gain most.

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Originally Posted by Conor H

We'll be there on merit as will any other team who gets there.The league needs re-structuring...it has to start somewhere.If you want to talk about getting there on football grounds...GUFC will win the league this year anyway.;)

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Galway will not be there on merit, nor will a lot of teams who get there. The teams who have won the places on merit will be the 12 teams who qualify through the league on the pitch this season. It's quite simple really. Maybe Galway will win the First or the play-off, but until then, they should not be invited to the Premier Division.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

With respect pineapple, some of them don't as there is now way they have the facilities deemed neccesary by the club license

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Incorrect actually - the facilities section was overlooked last year in favour of getting the other four sections in order. Also, in acknowledgement of the fact that clubs can't turn around and install 1500 seats while the FAI are busy getting the grant money frozen, plans for a new ground are allowed in lieu for the time being. That covers quite a lot of the teams you're alluding to.

"overlooked" you say... That doens't mean they weren't there...

Overlooked is the wrong word, sorry. It was said in the UEFA Licencing manual for 2005 that facilities would not be a criterion last season. (They were all B or C requirements or something).

Given that clubs also don't have to have a current tax cert this year, the financial requirements are a bit lax as well....

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Originally Posted by Galway Harps

Given that clubs also don't have to have a current tax cert this year, the financial requirements are a bit lax as well....

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I have to say i'm getting bored with all this conjecture and crap. Just because it's printed here doesn't make it fact. Clubs do need a tax clearance cert to obtain a licence, just like the "overlooked" facilities issue is actually where clubs have shown the FAI their 5 year Infrastructure Development plan, which would have everything up to premier division standard by five years time.

I think people should actually go to the bother of reading the manual for the licensing application (all 100+ pages of it.)

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Originally Posted by Breifne

I think people should actually go to the bother of reading the manual for the licensing application (all 100+ pages of it.)

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Perhaps those in the Licensing Department could get the ball rolling and read it themselves.......

Having a current tax certificate is not an A requirement, it's a C requirement. Just because it's on this board doesn't mean it's not true, and I'm pretty sure on this one.

The responses on here are unsurprising.

Broadly, the fans of those clubs who will most likely fail to meet enhanced infrastructure and other requirements which will necessitate significantly increased revenue are firmly against. This are the turkeys who won't vote for Christmas and to be honest I don't blame them. Why sign your own death warrant, ie effectively condemning yourself to First Division obscurity ad infinitum?

But to mix metaphors completely :D I'd say the bus will be leaving soon whether the turkeys are on it or not. Maybe not this season, but given that exploratory discussions have taken place re an All-Ireland League, some sort of radical shake up that involves cherry-picking teams isn't far away (whether through subjective or "objective" means).

Whilst this thread has been dominated by fans of clubs who have every right to be threatened, lets not make assumptions based on this that this is soley the idea of the FAI. I'd say it has a lot of support, maybe not 2/3rd majority, but certainly 2/3 of the revenue in the League. And in the professional game, thats what counts.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Whilst this thread has been dominated by fans of clubs who have every right to be threatened, lets not make assumptions based on this that this is soley the idea of the FAI. I'd say it has a lot of support, maybe not 2/3rd majority, but certainly 2/3 of the revenue in the League. And in the professional game, thats what counts.

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I'm not sure thats true. We've Derry, Cork and Longford fans on here and everyone agrees they're pretty much guarenteed to be in there. The people posting here are the same people who usually post about this thing.

Just wondering how you reckon 2/3 of the league's revenue is made up?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I'm against any factors which cannot be quantified coming into the equation (marketabilty etc)

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Exactly. And there also should be required standards not some ranking system that they'll make up at the time that they can change to suit who they want in.

Compare these leaks about formats, rule changes etc to the leaks about Staunton getting the international job. Is this the FAI throwing the info out there to get the negative reaction out of the way before the official launch? Given it's a proven FAI tatic, maybe the people writting it off should take it a bit more seriously.

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Originally Posted by Bald Student

That's all because Galway have been selected as a team to get an automatic promotion. Why did genesis visit you and no other club? The clubs chalked down for a automatic relegation could work as hard as they liked and would still be relegated.

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and John McNiece was coming to Galway on business so we set up a general forum open to everyone and advertised it.We had upto 80 people including a large group of local business leaders and politicians as well as fans.It was one of the most informative meetings we ever had and Genesis were only a small part of it we had other presentations there as well.

Every club in the country should be holding open forums like this so their supporters can see what if any work the clubs are doing to ensure they make the cut in 2007.

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Originally Posted by gufct

Because we asked them...Every club in the country should be holding open forums like this so their supporters can see what if any work the clubs are doing to ensure they make the cut in 2007.

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What a superb idea. Maybe the NLSA should get in touch with Genesis to set up a forum among other clubs. Oh no wait - they did and Genesis said they couldn't be bothered/"didn't have the time".

Genesis are every bit as corrupt/incompetent as the FAI and it's a disgrace that any sort of ridiculous proposal like this can be made on a report such as theirs. Galway fans would really want to start thinking about the league in general ahead of their own club. Because the way the FAI want to do things, we'll be left with about eight or nine clubs in a few years' time, with everyone else gone bust.

There is a lot wrong with football in this country. Those problems wont be solved with franchises or possible marketability. Proper application of the Licence scheme, proper plans for stadium development and proper funding from Government level is required. Most of all league placings should be decided on the pitch. If a club fails to meet the Licence criteria, there should be pre-agreed punishments [points deductions] for different crimes.




Higgins,

If Shels win the title this year and then get told they are in Division 1 next year, are you seriously suggesting you'd just accept it and get on with it? If so you are an idiot. If you want Franchise football then go to America. I see absolutely no reason why any EL fan, who is a football fan at the end of the day, should accept franchise football.I think it will be the death of clubs. Much as I despise Shels & Rovers, dislike Pats as a rival club, I can still respect the true fans of these clubs because like me they support an EL team.

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Originally Posted by Breifne

I think people should actually go to the bother of reading the manual for the licensing application (all 100+ pages of it.)

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Took my own advice, because i was outraged that the tax clearance issue could possibly be a B or C criteria.

The facts are:

LEG 1.06 (Tax Clearance Certificate)
The Licence Applicant must provide the Licensor with a copy of its Tax Clearance Certificate for the most recent tax year.
If the Licence applicant is not the trading entity of the football club, then the Tax Clearance Certificate for the trading entity must be submitted in addition to that of the Licence Applicant.

UEFA & Premier Licence: A Criteria
First Division Licence: B Criteria

For the record this is what is meant by A, B or C criteria (just to quote fact, not conjecture)

A Criteria (in general)
Must be fulfilled as indicated. However the manual offers possible alternatives to fulfil certain criteria. Non-fulfilment of the criteria will result in the Licence Applicant being refused a licence and the club may not be granted admission to the FAI National League Premier Division and UEFA Club Competitions

B Criteria (in general)
Must be fulfilled as indicated. Non fulfilment of the criteria will result in the club being sanctioned as described in the FAI Club Licensing Manual, but cannot lead to exclusion from the FAI National League Premier Division and UEFA Club Competitions.

C Criteria (in general)
Best Practice is recommended only, thus the Licence Applicant has no obligation to fulfil the criteria for the moment. However, these criteria may be re-categorised as A, B or C criteria at a future stage.

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Originally Posted by Rovers1

have a league based on who can sell the most shirts

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This part I agree with. As Genesis use this site to research the eircom League (see Attendance figures in the report), this will guarantee a place for Pats and Dublin City. I'm sure they could ask the manager of Champion Sports on Grafton Street to get figures for the remaining 8 clubs to make up the new Prim-Éire Liga.

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Originally Posted by Jerry The Saint

I'm sure they could ask the manager of Champion Sports on Grafton Street to get figures for the remaining 8 clubs to make up the new Prim-Éire Liga.

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Nah, that would be too much trouble for the boys at Genesis.

What I've heard is that clubs who fail to get a licence will be allowed to play in the league, but won't get a vote. There's enough subjectivity in the licence criteria to ensure that it will only take the smallest bit of gerrymandering to ensure that the proposals get through

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Originally Posted by monutdfc

What I've heard is that clubs who fail to get a licence will be allowed to play in the league, but won't get a vote. There's enough subjectivity in the licence criteria to ensure that it will only take the smallest bit of gerrymandering to ensure that the proposals get through

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Won't get a vote if the new proposals are brought in or won't get to vote on the new peoposals?