Trouble at Derry vs. Rovers and Irish language debate!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You do seven subjects for Leaving Cert (or at least most schools do; we were given an optional eighth as well). Only six count. You can do badly in Irish but still get into medicine. In any case, you can apply that argument to any subject. Is it fair someone doesn't get into medicine because they did badly at economics?

---

Exactly but for economics isn't compulsory...
I hated English as a subject thought in school and was never any good at it but I never complained ...
Oh it's not fair that I have to do this subject cause I find it difficult..
English is compulsory too but you just get on with it and try your best..

And I know some of you are gona come back with you need English blah blah blah.. Yes you do but just conversational English and to write and read it.. you don't need to learn Shakespeare ect to get on in life and will more than likely never use it again

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macy

I thought Irish had to be one of the 6, along with English and Maths (maybe just specific to the medical schools). Difference is you can drop economics, you can't drop Irish....

---

Nope. I did pass Irish and discarded it. I think you have to pass pass Irish though. If you fail pass Irish (and let's be honest - how could you?), then you're in trouble all right - I think you can't get into 99% of courses with a fail in Pass Irish. Same if you do Foundation Irish.

The Economics was just an example. You could make a bad subject choice, or the exam could go badly. If you want to include compulsory subjects, is it fair if someone doesn't get into medicine because they don't appreciate the finer points of Shakespeare and Keats?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The Economics was just an example. You could make a bad subject choice, or the exam could go badly. If you want to include compulsory subjects, is it fair if someone doesn't get into medicine because they don't appreciate the finer points of Shakespeare and Keats?

---

I suppose you're right, cosidering the standards of doctors writing on perscriptions.... :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Aw diddums. If something's hard, it's not worth doing? Have you ever stopped to consider how hard English is? No, because you pick it up naturally as a kid. Foreigners have trouble with it, though. Do native Irish speakers (over the past couple of thousand years) ever consider how hard Irish is? No, for the same reason. There are many many harder languages than Irish, but people - especially young kids - have a remarkable knack for learning. But then they get old and lazy...

---

English is considered a simplistic language by foreigners which is among the if not the easiest to learn. Irish is not that hard a language, for example it only has 3 tenses. However it is an inflective language and is quite different to English. It is not apparent to us and is often badly explained. It cannot be assumed that we all have a decent basis in it by the age of 12 to carry on with more complex matters in secondary. When I went to secondary we had vastly varying levels depending on primary school. Some like mine did at least an hour a day, others treated it exotically and did it less frequently than daily. Some people are very behind in the language by the time they get to secondary not knowing their verbs and the likes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Nope. I did pass Irish and discarded it. I think you have to pass pass Irish though. If you fail pass Irish (and let's be honest - how could you?), then you're in trouble all right - I think you can't get into 99% of courses with a fail in Pass Irish. Same if you do Foundation Irish.

The Economics was just an example. You could make a bad subject choice, or the exam could go badly. If you want to include compulsory subjects, is it fair if someone doesn't get into medicine because they don't appreciate the finer points of Shakespeare and Keats?

---

We have a crap system. What can you say? I think for your A-Levels in Britain you just choose 3 sujects and any three at all, you just hope they're releveant for what you are doing. A far better idea to specialise in your interests at that age than have subjects forced on you up to the age of 18.

Watched it as a neutral ;) and I have to say I thought TG4 did a great job. Half-time discussion (what I caught of it) seemed intelligent and less formulaic than Setanta etc. Good match -- came across really well on the box, apart from the excitement over the usual brain-deads who got only a couple of seconds of fame.
Watching football in the first national tongue has the added advantage that when the game gets boring you can pass the time testing/congratulating yourself on comprehension.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Kids are idiots. Kids at 14 or 15 don't have a clue about their future life.

---

Depends on the person though - what about kids that are more into practical stuff who find learning from a textbook tough as it is never mind having to tackle the irish language?

And in fariness at 14/ 15 I was old enough to know that Irish would be of no benefit to me after school and the amount of studying that had to be done in it was very disproportionate to studying time for other subjects :( - thought at the time it was a waste of time and still do (but maybe ive never grown up :o )

Seriously, I think it would be great if we were all going around nattering in irish but today i think students in secondary school should be given a choice on if they want to keep doing it seen as very few people speak it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poor Student

English is considered a simplistic language by foreigners which is among the if not the easiest to learn.

---

It's a relatively simple language, possibly among the simplest, yes. But that doesn't mean it is simple. Many foreigners - German speakers for example - have huge trouble with the fact that there are no genders in English, or that there is no declination of the word "the". In German, "the" can be "der", "die", "das", "den" or "dem", depending on the case and gender of the relative word.

Languages, by definition, though are complicated. They have to be when you consider that they describe everything which can happen. To dismiss a language because it's hard is silly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poor Student

However it is an inflective language and is quite different to English. It is not apparent to us and is often badly explained.

---

Definitely. Something the Department of Education really need to look at. That said, some phrases in English-Irish are unique to Ireland - "I'm after leaving my book at home", "Myself and Joe went to the game" for example - the reason being that they are literal translations of the Irish ("Táimse tar éis mo leabhar a fágáil sa bhaile" and "Chuas Seósaif agus mé féin go dtí on cluiche"). Those phrases look normal to us, but (apparently) would be frowned upon/would confuse English speakers abroad. Similarly with words like "Sláinte" or "amadán". So it isn't as hard as it first seems either.

The Government's record on promoting Irish is very poor though. There are many simple ways you could encourage the cúpla focal. Change road signs, for example. Why have "Stop" signs when you can have "Stad"? Why have "Yield" when you can have "Géill Slí"? The shape and colour is a world-wide standard, so no-body'd be particularly confused.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poor Student

I think for your A-Levels in Britain you just choose 3 sujects and any three at all, you just hope they're releveant for what you are doing. A far better idea to specialise in your interests at that age than have subjects forced on you up to the age of 18.

---

I don't agree, to be honest. Better to get a broad education until you're 18 and then specialise. How many people know what they want to be at 14/15?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cosmo

And in fariness at 14/ 15 I was old enough to know that Irish would be of no benefit to me

---

So was I. Maybe I'm just older and wiser than you. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redgav

Thats it exactly - In schools,French and German and other languages are taught in a modern way that keeps kids interested , with Irish they are forced to learn things over and Over
Peig Sayers should be in a classic litrature or for people who do Irish outside of schools cos it has nothing whatsoever to do with teaching a language....If they spruced up the way its taught,you'd be surprised how quick it would catch on .....

---

spot on

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Languages, by definition, though are complicated. They have to be when you consider that they describe everything which can happen. To dismiss a language because it's hard is silly.

---

Well yes and no. Some people are naturally untalented for languages and secondly due to our awful teaching in English we lack the sufficient knowledge to tackle a language. When you consider these two things it is unfair to not have the choice not to take a language. You know yoourself, some people are so bad at Irish they genuinely have to get the exemption.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Those phrases look normal to us, but (apparently) would be frowned upon/would confuse English speakers abroad. Similarly with words like "Sláinte" or "amadán". So it isn't as hard as it first seems either.

---

There's no would be about it. Gaeilge syntax and such thing have been imported into our dialect Hiberno-English. However some of the syntax is still quite different. For example "I went to the shops in order to buy the book", "Chuaigh mé go dtí na siopaí chun an labhair a cheannach" (please correct me if I'm wrong). Literally "Went I to the shops in order book to buy". Hard things to grasp if you have neither the inclination or the ability.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The Government's record on promoting Irish is very poor though. There are many simple ways you could encourage the cúpla focal. Change road signs, for example. Why have "Stop" signs when you can have "Stad"? Why have "Yield" when you can have "Géill Slí"? The shape and colour is a world-wide standard, so no-body'd be particularly confused.

---

The government's approach has been poor since the formation of the state. These token things you suggest are useless though. If anything they would confuse the even increasing non-Irish speaking contingent in the state. One thing that is necessary is a thorough teaching of English grammar and structure to give us the framework to understand other languages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't agree, to be honest. Better to get a broad education until you're 18 and then specialise. How many people know what they want to be at 14/15?

---

It's phases if you ask me. You're wise enough to know what to specialise in at 14/15 then wiser at 18 to choose a future deciding degree. I wasted my time with a lot of subjects I had no interest in for the last few years of secondary that had advanced to a difficult enough level to make them a chore and annoyance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poor Student

For some bizarre reason we are adding languages like Chinese, Arabic and Russian to the Leaving Cert which mainly end up benefiting minorities. If you look at the results in such minority languages there is a huge success rate as immigrant families are picking up A1s in these subjects with ease, while natives often struggle to scrape a pass in our alleged native tongue.

This is not a racist or immigrant rant, just something I observed when looking at results in these subjects.

---

Have a friend who's a primary school teacher and she says in her class the "non national" (for want of a better word) children are generally excellent at learning Irish. She reckons its an amage thing. They don't think irish is "stupid and pointless" so they just get on with learning it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dodge

Have a friend who's a primary school teacher and she says in her class the "non national" (for want of a better word) children are generally excellent at learning Irish. She reckons its an amage thing. They don't think irish is "stupid and pointless" so they just get on with learning it

---

There's a higher and higher % of people not taking Irish and that's partly due to more non-natives coming through the education system.

Just wondering, why are we not having this conversation about Maths? It's compulsary but very few people use more than primary level addition/subtraction/multiplication etc. When was the last time you calculated the derivative of a function? Or applied probability theory to your racing bets? I happen to work in a field where I use mathematics day in and day out, but why do the same arguments about Irish not apply for Maths? How come you need to pass Maths to get a place studying English in University? For some reason, Irish seems to be a much more divisive subject matter.
Personally, I hated Irish but I still think it should be compulsary. But I also think that up to Junior Cert Science should also be compulsary, along with Business Studies, History and Geography. You should also be required to study another foreign language. Incidentally, people who already speak a second language find it easier to learn a third. Also, for EU jobs, Irish counts as a separate language when applying. Therefore, Irish people, who usually would have French or German as well, can apply with three languages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philo

I can't imagine Irish EVER gets used by the law unless some looper decides to be irritating by demanding all procedures are carried out in the language.

---

What an ignorant statement. Men were put up against the wall and shot so we could have the right to speak our language. No one should be belittled or labelled a "looper" for exercising this right.

Could you imagine a French or German person giving out because people want to conduct their business in their native language?

As steve said above, only in Ireland....

Irish was optional at my school. Had the choice of German, Spanish or Irish. I Chose Spanish. I have no regrets cos most of the Irish teachers at our school were nuns, gimps, retards or all of the above. As soon as the Irish language reaches out beyond Shinners, begorahs and boggers ... I'll consider learning the language.

As for the minor fracas at the Brandywell on Saturday night.... well it was nothing compared to all 17 yr olds running around the Guildhall Square and Strand Rd thinking they were all Al Capone after 11pm on Saturday night in Derry (just like any other provincial Irish town on a Sat night).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ORPCS

As for the minor fracas at the Brandywell on Saturday night.... well it was nothing compared to all 17 yr olds running around the Guildhall Square and Strand Rd thinking they were all Al Capone after 11pm on Saturday night in Derry (just like any other provincial Irish town on a Sat night).

---

.....which in turn is nothing compared to what passes for a nights entertainment in North Belfast.

Anyway, as away fan tickets for the League match in a few weeks will be distributed only through the club, it will be interesting to see who Rovers give the tickets to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Anyway, as away fan tickets for the League match in a few weeks will be distributed only through the club, it will be interesting to see who Rovers give the tickets to.

---

Derry will sell tickets for that match to whoever wants one from that shop beside the Bluebell.

As for the trouble in Derry town centre being small compared to North Belfast on a Saturday night - incorrect at least 50 out of 52 weeks of the year.

The 1 minute fracas at the Brandywell was only considered newsworthy because it was Rovers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Dutch is no use to the Dutch outside Holland, Hungarian is no use to the Hungarians outside Hungary, etc., etc. and yet those languages thrive. In fact, most languages are no use to the locals outside of their country. That's an invalid argument, I think.

---

:rolleyes:

The difference is, Dutch is the everyday language of Holland, there is a reason why people there need it. You need to speak Dutch if you want to live and work in Holland. Do you need Irish to live here? No. Do you need to speak it to work here? Usually no. That's the difference. Irish is a language of convenience only. That's why kids are not interested in learning it, as they rarely need it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anto eile

tg4 do the best coverage of all four stations.

---

Best coverage? The camera was on the wrong side of the pitch at Derry, which meant that it was hard to see it at times, with all the rain on the camera lens. Also, their cameras must have had no zoom-lens, as the goals seemed miles away from the camera focus most of the time.

Don't like this pitchside presenting lark either. Providing a tv gantry should be also a mandatory part of UEFA club licensing requirements. Having presenters present a match pitchside, in howling wind and lashing rain, looks terrible. :( The tv coverage should be better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ORPCS

The 1 minute fracas at the Brandywell was only considered newsworthy because it was Rovers.

---

First of all, it went on for more than 1 minute.

Second, it was considered newsworthy as it doesn't happen on a regular basis in the Brandywell.

the individuals involved have been banned from rovers games.
the head steward in the brandywell thanked the rovers support for sorting it out themselves. the steward who tryed to panel the peacemaker was moved to the other end of the stand and things calmed down immediatly.
i think the fact that this thread wandered off topic for 6 pages probably reflects how serious the incident was.

The topic is serious but I didn't expect you or the vast majority of Rover's fans on here to acknowledge that as you spend most of time creating excuses for trouble and being apologists. Brilliant to see that the new management of your club don't share your views and are banning those involved, about time!

Why do CliftonVILE supporters follow Rover's? Mini-Celtic and all that baloney? Ironic given the distasteful chants which eminate from the Rover's support every time they come to the Brandy.

what excuses did we make?
we collared those involved and they were banned on monday, less than 48 hours later.
what more do you want?
we leave them alone, we are condoning scum, we tackle them we are "fighting amongst ourselves".
I dont recall much condemnation from DC fans of the locals who put in the windows of our bus in last July.
And the old distasteful chants nonsense. 99% of Derry fans have no problem, see it in the spirit its meant, and give it back with interest.
But there is always one malcontent.
CliftonVILE? Hilarious. If more people held that sort of attitude towards you in the mid 80's you would still be in exile and the Brandywell would be crumbling.
Lucky you are the minority isnt it.

I am delighted that Rover's banned those incolved but you refered to the incident as not serious. Any incident of trouble inside or outside a ground is serious. As with the Linfield match City cannot control the actions of local scumbags outside the ground.

The people offended by antagonistic chants would total more than 1% of the support. If city fans chanted "BSC" at the Rover's support I would be fearing for my safety.

My problem with Cliftonvile is their pathetic approach to transfer dealings with City and I can't help but feel dislike for any team from Belfawst.

Fair play to the 400 club time Bohs followed and banned the disgraceful BSC flag (and their members) from Dalymount.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Speranza

Fair play to the 400 club time Bohs followed and banned the disgraceful BSC flag (and their members) from Dalymount.

---

the bsc flag wont be going near dalymount anytime soon anyway :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Speranza

Fair play to the 400 club time Bohs followed and banned the disgraceful BSC flag (and their members) from Dalymount.

---

you havent been round much recently!!! that problem is taken care of :D

and if you were chanting bsc you would be laughed at. grow up, fans slag each other, i dont come on here crying about the milltown songs you sing.

i dont think the incident was that bad, but was certainly unacepptable. a sense of perspective would be nice, and it would be far easier to take you seriously if you werent so dismissive of trouble outside the brandywell.

rovers could easily have washed their hands of the morons, said it was your problem as it was an away game, and done nowt. instead we dealt with the trouble ourselves in spite of the stewards and banned them later. and we still get stick!

its getting tiresome.

Cannot believe we're still discussing this non event.

Drunks fight everywhere in this country on every Saturday night.
And this is what happened at the Brandy on saturday past, a few drunks fighting.
In fact i don't thing any of those initially involved were even wearing team colours. They were wearing Burberry style baseball caps and the like.

So let's move on to the positive side of saturday or the benefits of speaking irish, Dutch or maybe Hebrew!!! and leave the non events to the El hating newspapers.

Lets not forget, not everyone who doesn't wear team colours are hoolies either!!!

[QUOTE=mypost]Best coverage? The camera was on the wrong side of the pitch at Derry, which meant that it was hard to see it at times, with all the rain on the camera lens.

WHAT? :confused: The camera was on the RIGHT side of the ground for once. This is one my bugbears for years. Normally Derry have a camcorder in amongst the fans in the stand and therefore it just shows an empty terrace and cant show the away fans at all.

Worst example of all is Waterford. Super stand but the camera is in it :mad: Cork (to a lesser extent) Sligo and Bray have this problem too.

And Speranza I've heard that you've had problems paying for Cliftonville players. Dont see anything wrong with Cliftonville fans supporting us TBH.


KOH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Worst example of all is Waterford. Super stand but the camera is in it :mad: Cork (to a lesser extent) Sligo and Bray have this problem too.

---

Yeah, that is a major problem with us :o. The big crowd is in the new stand along with the camera :(

Where can we read the "names" of the "ten named fans" that have been banned from attending games? Likewise, where can we read the "names" of the "six named fans" that were "banned" after the Shels game? "Writing letters" might be a Rovers solution to a Rovers problem, but I reckon you might just have a slightly harder time convincing anyone else outside the SRFC fantasy world.

Where can I read an official SRFC club statement on this or the post-Shels game bannings?

And everyone knows why the BSC flag won't be making an appearance at Dalymount again this season. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sligoman

Yeah, that is a major problem with us :o. The big crowd is in the new stand along with the camera :(

---

Sligoman I'm not slagging you or your club. You're missing the point. If the camera was facing your new stand with the fans in it would'nt it look better? I was in your new stand in february for the friendly and was impressed. Fair play.

BTW we're not going down.

KOH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaime

Where can we read the "names" of the "ten named fans" that have been banned from attending games? Likewise, where can we read the "names" of the "six named fans" that were "banned" after the Shels game? "Writing letters" might be a Rovers solution to a Rovers problem, but I reckon you might just have a slightly harder time convincing anyone else outside the SRFC fantasy world.

Where can I read an official SRFC club statement on this or the post-Shels game bannings?

And everyone knows why the BSC flag won't be making an appearance at Dalymount again this season. :rolleyes:

---

Coming from a Bohs casual I find the above a bit rich :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaime

Where can we read the "names" of the "ten named fans" that have been banned from attending games? Likewise, where can we read the "names" of the "six named fans" that were "banned" after the Shels game? "Writing letters" might be a Rovers solution to a Rovers problem, but I reckon you might just have a slightly harder time convincing anyone else outside the SRFC fantasy world.

---

You won't be reading the names of the individuals involved either here or elsewhere. We are not taking this action to convince you of anything. This is an entirely internal matter to be dealt with within the confines of SRFC. It's our problem, we're dealing with it. Your club has your own problems - plenty of them. I suggest you concentrate on them before concerning yourself with ours.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaime

And everyone knows why the BSC flag won't be making an appearance at Dalymount again this season. :rolleyes:

---

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaime

Where can we read the "names" of the "ten named fans" that have been banned from attending games? Likewise, where can we read the "names" of the "six named fans" that were "banned" after the Shels game? "Writing letters" might be a Rovers solution to a Rovers problem, but I reckon you might just have a slightly harder time convincing anyone else outside the SRFC fantasy world.

Where can I read an official SRFC club statement on this or the post-Shels game bannings?

And everyone knows why the BSC flag won't be making an appearance at Dalymount again this season. :rolleyes:

---

what difference is it to you their names? planning on saying hello with your BSC chums?

are you seriously trying to suggest the SRFC board made the whole thing up and havent banned anyone? :confused:

banning people for causing trouble may be a 'rovers solution', but thats a hell of a lot more than bohs have done lately. ill explain this slowly Jaime, the letters inform the relevant people of their ban. whats confusing?

when members of your committee stop drinking with the BSC your opinion will become relevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Speranza

Why do CliftonVILE supporters follow Rover's? Mini-Celtic and all that baloney? Ironic given the distasteful chants which eminate from the Rover's support every time they come to the Brandy.

---

Your deliberate mis-spelling of Cliftonville hardly merits a response... however - I cant speak for the other 10 or so Cliftonville supporters at the Brandywell on Saturday, but reasons I heard from other C'ville fans who are regular attenders are stuff like:

1. The colourful displays that their ultras put on.
2. The standard of football is something better than what reds fans are used to.
3. Something to do during the Irish League closed season.
4. Many of us have made friends with regular hoops who attend matches at Solitude/ROI away matches and use a big hoops/reds game as a chance to to catch up.

My own reason: I've always had a feel for rovers since I read about how the club was screwed over by Louis Kilcoyne and they lost their ground ... and have been attending at least one or two matches every season since 1992.

AFAIK there are also plenty of redsmen who follow Derry - though I must also say its time the actions of a few redsmen at a charity match in 1985 were forgotten by Derry folk as most of the kids following derry werent even born then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anto eile

tg4 do the best coverage of all four stations,charlie mctgeever knows the league well and his co-presenter (richie?) seems genuinely interested...

---

Richie Ó hEadhra - Legend. He taught me a couple of years ago in the Gaeltacht, possibly one the funniest people I've ever met.