i just cant accept that any manager of a professional team would accept responsibility for the equipment arrangements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
their skillset is management of the players and coaching not dealing with DHL.
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i just cant accept that any manager of a professional team would accept responsibility for the equipment arrangements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
their skillset is management of the players and coaching not dealing with DHL.
Yeah, after they got stuffed in a game against Middlesboro he went on a rant and named several players he felt were underperforming, John O'Shea among them. It was a pre-record so never made it to air. I don't think he was let go on the spot, it took a few weeks, but his time as a United player was finished that day really.
If memory serves Utd went on to have one of their most successful periods after that?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
They won three leagues, a Champions League and two League cups in the next three and a half seasons. But for Barca becoming who they were at the time they might have had more in Europe. I wouldn't put Keane's departure as a huge part of that (I mean, Ronaldo came good for one thing!), but it was an element of a transition period when Ferguson was forming what would be his third great side. Keane was declining on the field, but by all accounts was as big a personality (you could say bully, but there's a fine line really) as ever on the training ground, and that was a problem I think. Keane has said Ferguson wasn't too torn up by his leaving, and there were plenty of options - Michael Carrick, Darren Fletcher, Anderson, etc - in line to fill that role, albeit none of them could ever claim to be as good as Keane at his peak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Keane's legs started to go around then. He was tried in centre half, not without success, but he certainly hastened his own departure by making trouble he was no longer worth. None of that bunch were as good as peak Keane (though people started to revise opinions of Carrick when they realised how hard he was to replace) but he wasn't that player any more either.
The current United squad could use someone like Keane in the dressing room calling them all out now.
They'd all just tell him to **** off I think.
If they don't listen to Ronaldo I don't think they'd listen to Keane. Ronaldo should be a hero to them and from what I can see they couldn't give a toss. That's a lost bunch.
Funny reading all the negative stuff about Keane though. I understand people might not forgive him for Saipan if they put the blame (wrongly!) at his door and I get why a Liverpool fan wouldn't like him but I don't know how anyone watching him play for Ireland, particularly in qualifying for that WC could hold such a negative view of him to be honest. You'd swear he wasn't one of the best midfielders and captains of his time as declared by some of the best players he played with and against. His character let him down here and there but it also raised him and those around him up.
It's a bit sad all around that his legacy was ruined for some by, in what is apparently not the average foot.ie opinion, a really badly managed situation on multiple fronts. I'd already had a pretty intense dislike of the FAI but after that WC I lost my interest in the national side altogether. It just didn't have the same attraction with Delaney taking headlines and the sour taste of Saipan left over. Gradually I've gotten back into it but it took almost 20 years!
For me it's not a black or white, for Ireland Keane was the epitome of a midfield general plus team leader yet at the same time I totally take issue with his issues in Saipan. Imo for some contrary reason he didn't want to be there right from the beginning of the trip, fine then take responsibility for that state of mind instead of railing against the world for being at fault. That game against Spain, still the feeling lingers that we were more than a match against them and left a great opportunity behind on the pitch.
I don't think anyone doubts Keane was a great player.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
I'm not sure though if Saipan is as standalone an incident as you suggest. From the 92 row to that infamous handshake after the Dutch win, Saipan seems more like the spark that set things off rather than an isolated incident of Keane sticking up for his squad and their facilities.
That's definitely Keane's fault, even if you can for sure criticise other parties for their contributions (especially the FAI)
Keane also suggested bringing a fitness expert into the Irish squad to prepare for WC. Forget his name but he was the man who made United the fittest team around. McCarthy didn't agree he should be brought in.
Mick Clegg was the guy Keane wanted to bring in
Question. Was Keane's attack on McCarthy rasist? ( or the like)
It went some like.
"You some how ended up managing my country you English c""t"
Mick Clegg probably, he's a name that crops up in a lot of players memories of that period. I read somewhere that he was credited with turning Ronaldo into, well, Ronaldo. I never knew Keane wanted him in Saipan/Japan. But how much could he have done in a few weeks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
Yes and I wonder how the other English born players in the squad would have taken that comment from their so-called leader and captain. Presume at some level he had similar views about McAteer, Reid, Breen, Morrison Kilbane, Connolly and Kelly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
That only came out this year - https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-41473447.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
Unfortuantely, the article is behind a paywall
There was something in his first autobiography about that, something like "I thought the lads who weren't born in Ireland didn't try as hard". Alan McLoughlin was another one named in the book, but that was Dunphy putting his name in. Keane apologised to McLoughlin in person for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
Would really like to see some evidence something along these lines was said. I don't believe it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
A row and a handshake tho stu? If most players and managers went back over their career (particularly in their era) there would be similar events. Quinn's account of the Boston row doesn't paint McCarthy in the greatest light either (targeting the youngest player when half the team were on the ****) so I wouldn't be putting too much weight on it other than to say they didn't get on and it went back a fair way.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
McCarthy should have been able to manage around that to get his best player going and he failed to do so. If anything he antagonized Keane.
Is Keane blameless? No. But I see why he was fuming about Saipan more than I see why McCarthy made the decisions he did to manage to situation. I still just don't understand calling that team meeting and slapping the newspaper on the table. What did he think was going to happen? David Brent would have done a better job.
But ultimately I still blame the FAI more than anyone.
Probably time to call it ~ ~ Sigh-Pain !
Yeah let's move on to Thierry Henry.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
All Hands on Deck !Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
While responsibility can be apportioned out on the whole debacle for sure, I just think the bottom line, for me, is that it is simply unacceptable that you walk out on your teammates and your country on the eve of a World Cup - no matter how right you think you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
I cant give u cctv footageQuote:
Originally Posted by Exgrad
But I'm pretty sure this is accepted as fact by those who were there( the whole squad)
Are u saying its false?
Will Smith would disagree!Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I'd agree with you if I thought he walked more so than was pushed. But I suppose it rests on that in a way. For me, McCarthy wanted him gone and called the meeting to make that happen.
We had a chance at that WC. Keane knew it. It sounds, from what I'm reading here, that most posters thought the same. I try to put myself in the shoes of our best player and captain arriving to the farce of Saipan, which was the culmination or at least continuation of years of neglect, mismanagement and incompetence on behalf of the FAI. Would I sacrifice my last (only) chance at a WC to call it all out? Maybe. I'd certainly want to make a point. I think that's how he saw it in the end. And I dont really blame him for that.
But there's layers to it and angles and almost everyone here has a fair enough take even if I come down fairly firmly on Keane's side. I can completely see why you'd be on the other side.
I think there's a lot underlying that row and handshake though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
I agree there's nuances to the whole thing, but I think Keane throughout his career seems to have held unhelpful grudges, and I think in the end that contributed more to Saipan than whatever McCarthy may have done. Maybe he thought it was for the best - people not pulling what he saw as their weight or what have you.
And I agree the FAI do seem to have been a bit of a shambles.
Yeah all fair. Certainly a man to hold a grudge. Sometimes it probably helped, sometimes it definitely didn't. I managed him just fine in Champo though so.....Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Keep Will Smiths name out ya fckin mouth!Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
According to the quotes here - https://www.theguardian.com/football.../sport.comment - McCarthy's nationality was not mentionedQuote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
That's not to say Keane didn't call him that another timeQuote:
"Mick, you're a liar... you're a ****ing ******. I didn't rate you as a player, I don't rate you as a manager, and I don't rate you as a person. You're a ****ing ****** and you can stick your World Cup up your arse. The only reason I have any dealings with you is that somehow you are the manager of my country! You can stick it up your ********."
The phrase "manager of my country " has a fairly similar connotation I guess
To be fair, Wills actions were worse than Keane's and nobody sent him home from the Oscars. It's a shame Chris Rock wasn't managing Ireland for the WC in a way. Might have been a better choice for those games against Gibraltar as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I'll just grab my coat there.
Ah come on. You wouldn't say "manager of the team representing our shared heritage"!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
You could say "somehow you are the manager!" or "somehow you are the Ireland manager!"
The phrase used is very strange and has a clear connotation that Ireland is not McCarthy's country. Would you say to Ogbene that he's done well so far "playing for my country"?
No but I also wouldn't say he's done really well for "my team" because I'm not on it!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think it's a stretch to look for something in a turn of phrase here unless he emphasized the "my" and waved a proclamation in the air at the same time. If I was at work and had an issue with my manager and I said, "I don't like you but I'll do what you say because you're the manager of my team (or a manager at my company)" it wouldn't be implying that it wasn't also his team or that I had more ownership over it than he or she did.
Replace McCarthy with Kenny and Keane could say the same thing with no problem.
If only Stephen Ward's whatsapp account had been around in those days. We'd have had the full, unadulterated scoop within seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Fairly fundamental difference between "my team" and "my country" though.
He is absolutely 100% clearly stating that mick is a different nationality to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
I suppose if you say it in your head with the emphasis on the "my" then you'd have a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
We went pretty quickly from accusations of overt racism to arguing over semantics though which I think highlights that it wasn't really very clear and certainly shouldn't have been such a big deal when taken in context. Worse is said between teammates, players and managers in the heat of the moment all the time.
Clinton Morrison said he said it.
Niall Quinn said he never questioned McCarthy's nationality.
People remember things differently
Oh to be a fly on the wall
All the flies were in the ointment in Saipan unfortunately...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
it does... but i could also credibly imagine Roy saying the same thing to Steve Staunton if Roy's retirement didn't coincide with Stan's appointmentQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
i guess it's a touch of egomania. we may be all from ireland but it's Roy's country more than anyone else's