Treaty United

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Is it really that important?

Dublin City was hardly a good name for Irish football either.

Though I do agree that if they are successful, they will change to Limerick something alright.

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Are you really asking if branding is important ?

Hmm. I mean, put that way, it's a fair point. But it's not as if all the Limerick names have really done the trick either. (Treaty United could always be worse of course)

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Treaty United were set up as a sort of lifeboat for people that were involved with Limerick FC before pat stopped paying people

The coaching staff from underage up to senior was basically copy pasted across from Limerick FC. Some good people, some people I don't know anything about and some people that I wouldn't have in the way personally.

At board level you've got Con Murray who might suprise me and be good for something but I doubt it, Dave mahedy is knocking around there somewhere which is good as it's a link to ul, a couple of fellas from the trust, various women's football people and a few people that I don't know who they are.

On the name they originally tried to call themselves Limerick United without checking who owned the name (it was Pat O'Sullivan) so in a panic it was changed to treaty United and they've been putting the word around the place that the reason is pat o sullivan owns the word Limerick. Which is of course complete and utter ****** designed to cover day ones mistake.

Which isn't a great start we're a half an hour out of Limerick FC and already the arse covering and spoof spreading begins.

I'm also skeptical enough because of some of the people still involved and the apparent complete lack of anyone with proper money.

But the first division is crap everyone gets a go at the playoffs and there's enough ex Limerick FC players knocking around the league that should come back for cheap.

It's going to be Tommy Barrett managing Tommy Barretts team in the first division.

Vive la revolution!!

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Conn Murray would be an accomplished administrator, a safe pair of hands for league applications. More a general secretary type role if needed on a board. But he is deeply rooted in in the older (though maybe not dead) Senior Public Servant ways of diving for cover, deflection, and some spin added without much thought given that people are not stupid and just accept what they are told by a board. LoI fans are particularly tuned in imo, hope for the best but expect the worst. That Murray has already fallen foul of that tactic?! as you say he may surprise. Maybe Limerick football needs the less eccentric or irrational type to rebuild even if potentially frustratingly slow making progress. Other people involved with Treaty may provide decisiveness and temper the spin.

What do people consider more important, a reasonable support (fans) base or a good number of decent standard players available locally?
Important to remember that gate receipts would rarely cover 50% of the operating cost of even the successful in the league of Ireland.

Whatever it covers of operating costs, which will differ for clubs, it may not be too long before the various levels of financial impact attendances (rather than support imo as Irish fans are fickle) has on clubs. Not intending to be evasive but a balance I suppose, at minimum realistic budget if relying more on supporters than an owner who can cover losses. Decent available players and decent local players available is an old Dundalk and probably LoI nugget - a team of locals will get more support?! Not that Ive ever seen really in LoI as a winning team gets more support than an average or worse local team.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Hmm. I mean, put that way, it's a fair point. But it's not as if all the Limerick names have really done the trick either. (Treaty United could always be worse of course)

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That suggests that Limerick fortunes in the LOI to-date have been dependent to some significant degree on naming, when other issues have been the source of their problems.

Treaty United would be a terrible name for the only senior football club in Ireland's fifth largest city. That is all.

It would be a terrible name, I agree.

But I'm suggesting the "other issues" you hint at are much bigger factors than the name.

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Originally Posted by wonder88

What do people consider more important, a reasonable support (fans) base or a good number of decent standard players available locally?
Important to remember that gate receipts would rarely cover 50% of the operating cost of even the successful in the league of Ireland.

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In the long-term, fanbase. Even if gates are only ~50%, other revenue streams with the exception of prize money and direct investment by an owner or owners are largely based on a teams captive audience. Sponsors are more likely to want to work with a team with a large supporter base all things being equal. Having decent players locally is an advantage but not having it is not a death-knell. The Galway region has produced a lot of quality players over the years without any success for Galway United. Sporting Fingal never had a huge fan base despite their early success and they had some incredible players in a league of Ireland context who went on to achieve great things throughout the league both domestically and in Europe. Some even went on to have careers outside Ireland. However as soon as funding was withdrawn they vanished.

Murray interview: https://www.extratime.com/articles/2...ue-of-ireland/

Nothing much to see, mostly boilerplate. He does talk about the name thing, but not sure it'll assuage people.

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Originally Posted by wonder88

What do people consider more important, a reasonable support (fans) base or a good number of decent standard players available locally?
Important to remember that gate receipts would rarely cover 50% of the operating cost of even the successful in the league of Ireland.

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The most important thing for any football club at the top levels anywhere is finance. That is what makes or breaks clubs. And unless you have a wealthy owner happy to burn money (though even that never lasts) then the most essential ingredient influencing your finances will be support. Not just in terms of gate money - but also sponsorship, merchandise, volunteer base, attractiveness to players etc. Support is the bedrock of any successful football team, and without it no team will sustain success.

The standard of players locally will help you at junior and intermediate level, but is broadly irrelevant at a senior level. Because unless you can afford to keep them, those who are any good will invariably join a club who can pay them better. Even if they're technically 'amateurs', and particularly if they're good enough to be semi-pro. That's just the reality of sport.

With most people in Ireland turning their back on domestic football, support is therefore a percentages game - i.e. only a small percentage of your potential support will turn into actual fans. That is why catchment area/population is absolutely key in football generally, and Irish football in particular. There are a few exceptions - Sligo and Finn Harps in particular. But for every other club, if you're not based in a genuinely large town or city, you will struggle in the game. That's the bottom line.

The problem we have that underpins the revolving door of clubs in the LOI is three-fold in my opinion :

1) We have a small population and few genuinely large population centres that don't already have a football team.
2) Within that, we have very few towns or cities where football is genuinely the number one sport - thereby limiting potential appeal further.
3) We have a tendency of admitting to the LOI clubs who are really good at an intermediate level and who have nice facilities - regardless of where they're based. But that is just a recipe for failure IMO. It would be like being the best kid at football in a small town school, and turning up at university expecting to be made captain of the varsity squad. When in reality you find that for once you're actually at a level where you no longer stand out and are barely good enough to make the subs bench. Despite the fact that you have the latest boots, a great haircut and can somersault when you score. This is the approach that gave us the likes of Thurles Town, NewcastleWest, St Francis and Mervue United. Clubs that were great at a junior and intermediate level, but who realistically were always going to struggle to draw a crowd.

The problem with Point 3 above for me is that, if you accept it, it undermines the entire principle of a pyramid system in Irish football. Because it would just result in the league having more Salthill Devons and Merviue Uniteds (as it did the one time we did have more of a pyramid system). Big fish in small ponds who haven't got the where-with-all to survive when placed in the financial ocean that is the LOI.

In the Irish League, tiny clubs like Institute and Warrenpoint get to the top tier by virtue of the fact that the gap between intermediate and senior football there isn't all that big. They then add nothing to the top level in reality (no fans, no appeal etc), and in-effect help limit the top tier's growth and thereby sustain the narrow gap between the levels. It's a recipe for mediocrity and for the dominance of just a few longstanding clubs (who can create their own financial weather).

A pyramid system operates and works in literally every other country in Europe. Why do you think it's not an option in Ireland?

What is the alternative for growing the league? Because dropping in made-up clubs (Dublin City, Kildare County) hasn't worked either.

Stute and Warrenpoint are doing nothing at all to limit the IL. If the likes of Portadown or Distillery - nominally bigger clubs - are a division or two below them, that reflects really badly on them, not on well-run smaller clubs.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

A pyramid system operates and works in literally every other country in Europe. Why do you think it's not an option in Ireland?

What is the alternative for growing the league? Because dropping in made-up clubs (Dublin City, Kildare County) hasn't worked either.

Stute and Warrenpoint are doing nothing at all to limit the IL. If the likes of Portadown or Distillery - nominally bigger clubs - are a division or two below them, that reflects really badly on them, not on well-run smaller clubs.

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Totally agree. There has to be strong incentives and reduced risk for established junior clubs to make the step up. Access to national underage is a big incentive.

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

There has to be strong incentives and reduced risk for established junior clubs to make the step up.

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Yep. And that's something that's effectively never been there before (or even now). The First Division is the Graveyard for a reason.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Yep. And that's something that's effectively never been there before (or even now). The First Division is the Graveyard for a reason.

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The 'A' league reduced risk, amateur rather than semi professional/regional reduced cost.

To be fair, its the same problem acorss Irish football (and others far and wide), like of investment/capital for long term projects.

It did and it didn't.

The case of Tralee Dynamoes makes that point - they had to leave the Kerry League to join the A Championship which ran on a different season (so a few months without a game), and when they wanted to drop out, they had to return to the foot of the Kerry League pyramid (again with a few months without a game because of the different seasons) and make their way back up.

That's utterly, utterly idiotic and counter-productive.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

In the Irish League, tiny clubs like Institute and Warrenpoint get to the top tier by virtue of the fact that the gap between intermediate and senior football there isn't all that big.

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Afternoon all.

Just idly browsing, but I have to say that that caught my eye.

I mean, isn't that the whole point of a pyramid? That is, you aim to reach the top by being able to climb from each step to the next. While the clubs who are replaced don't have so far to descend.

Contrast that with eg the LOI, where you have a fairly competitive top division (the apex); the next step down has maybe 4 or 5 clubs with realistic aspirations of climbing further and staying there, with the rest just making up the numbers. After that it's like falling off a cliff.

Perhaps that's why there were never any ancient pyramids in Ireland: they didn't realise you build them from the bottom up, not the top down!

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

They then add nothing to the top level in reality (no fans, no appeal etc), and in-effect help limit the top tier's growth and thereby sustain the narrow gap between the levels. It's a recipe for mediocrity and for the dominance of just a few longstanding clubs (who can create their own financial weather).

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Really?

So long as they're not getting humped 6-0 every week, are living within their means and not incurring huge debts/going bust, what harm is there in clubs like that? They add variety to the same old, same old.

Meanwhile, Point kept senior football alive in S.Down after Newry folded and Stute provide the alternative in a proper footballing city which is able to support two senior teams (just). And if both their crowds are very small, fact is, their best crowds are always when the big clubs come from Belfast, meaning away fans at least are interested in a trip out to somewhere different.

Meanwhile, at nearly 40 years old, Point can now claim to be well-established in what is otherwise GAA territory, as well as providing an outlet for players and coaches from South of the border. While Stute are over a century old, having produced many important footballing figures, including eg Darron Gibson, James McClean and Aaron McEneff for ROI alone recently.

Compare that with all the Pop-Up clubs which have have been parachuted into the LOI pyramid in recent years, only to disappear without trace just as quickly. What did they add?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

A pyramid system operates and works in literally every other country in Europe. Why do you think it's not an option in Ireland?

What is the alternative for growing the league? Because dropping in made-up clubs (Dublin City, Kildare County) hasn't worked either.

Stute and Warrenpoint are doing nothing at all to limit the IL. If the likes of Portadown or Distillery - nominally bigger clubs - are a division or two below them, that reflects really badly on them, not on well-run smaller clubs.

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Agree with all of that

Meanwhile, after a period of being very badly run, as you say, Portadown have finally got back to the top division - just in time for Covid!

While Distillery's troubles (literally) all stem from having been caught up in the middle of a war zone at Grosvenor Park. After the ground was fire-bombed, then demolished, it was unrealistic to try to relocate within Belfast (too many clubs already), and while Lisburn might have seemed like a good idea, Ballyskeagh really isn't suitable for football, and has never caught on.

But I'd have loved to have got to a game at Grosvenor, one of the great old Irish football grounds:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Fpm3ahHth...distillery.jpg

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Afternoon all.

So long as they're not getting humped 6-0 every week, are living within their means and not incurring huge debts/going bust, what harm is there in clubs like that? They add variety to the same old, same old.

Meanwhile, Point kept senior football alive in S.Down after Newry folded and Stute provide the alternative in a proper footballing city which is able to support two senior teams (just). And if both their crowds are very small, fact is, their best crowds are always when the big clubs come from Belfast, meaning away fans at least are interested in a trip out to somewhere different.

Meanwhile, at nearly 40 years old, Point can now claim to be well-established in what is otherwise GAA territory, as well as providing an outlet for players and coaches from South of the border. While Stute are over a century old, having produced many important footballing figures, including eg Darron Gibson, James McClean and Aaron McEneff for ROI alone recently.

Compare that with all the Pop-Up clubs which have have been parachuted into the LOI pyramid in recent years, only to disappear without trace just as quickly. What did they add?

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Exactly and UCD are the perfect example. Whether you agree or dislike how they are funded doesn't really matter, at the end of the day they are always relatively competitive in whichever division they play and probably more important they will never have an * beside their name.

As much as we'd like to have strong crowds at games, it isn't the end all and be all of a club. Every country will have teams near the bottom of their pyramid system who have small crowds but are financially stable. It just so happens that those type of clubs are closer to the top tier in this country.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Meanwhile, Point kept senior football alive in S.Down after Newry folded and Stute provide the alternative in a proper footballing city which is able to support two senior teams (just). And if both their crowds are very small, fact is, their best crowds are always when the big clubs come from Belfast, meaning away fans at least are interested in a trip out to somewhere different.

Meanwhile, at nearly 40 years old, Point can now claim to be well-established in what is otherwise GAA territory, as well as providing an outlet for players and coaches from South of the border. While Stute are over a century old, having produced many important footballing figures, including eg Darron Gibson, James McClean and Aaron McEneff for ROI alone recently.

Compare that with all the Pop-Up clubs which have have been parachuted into the LOI pyramid in recent years, only to disappear without trace just as quickly. What did they add?

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Great set up at Warrenpoint(Especially the "Medical Room" :cool:)Usually in the lower half of the Irish League but competitive, and Where they are often pick up players from Mid-Ulster and Louth sides and Develop them. Backed well by local business in recent years.

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Originally Posted by DCSIL

Great set up at Warrenpoint(Especially the "Medical Room" :cool:)Usually in the lower half of the Irish League but competitive, and Where they are often pick up players from Mid-Ulster and Louth sides and Develop them. Backed well by local business in recent years.

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Exactly the type of club we need on both sides of the border, as we don't have a lot of large population centres and there are a lot of players who aren't in close proximity to them who could benefit from clubs like that. Not comparing them in terms of being well-run, but the likes of Athlone and Wexford do a similar job here.

Warrenpoint would be an ideal feeder club for Dundalk. Better than a Dundalk II in the 1st Division. Streamline coaching and tactic work, pick up players in their own catchment, send some of our 19s players on loan to them, share s&c staff and facilities etc to make sure they keep on target. Opportunities to play U19s against a senior side. Have some wily pros in the squad, best way to scout I.L. players. Warrenpoint relatively on the cheap get players that can keep them up. Could sneak Europe and Dundalk help with prep. Win win all round!

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Warrenpoint would be an ideal feeder club for Dundalk. Better than a Dundalk II in the 1st Division. Streamline coaching and tactic work, pick up players in their own catchment, send some of our 19s players on loan to them, share s&c staff and facilities etc to make sure they keep on target. Opportunities to play U19s against a senior side. Have some wily pros in the squad, best way to scout I.L. players. Warrenpoint relatively on the cheap get players that can keep them up. Could sneak Europe and Dundalk help with prep. Win win all round!

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Ideal for Dundalk maybe, but I could see three major problem areas which should (imo) prohibit this.

The first is regulatory. What happens if eg something goes wrong at Point, meaning the IFA needs to take action? They could end up punishing them, while the real "culprit" is over the border in Dundalk, so can't be touched. Indeed, if the punishment (fine?) was sufficiently severe, DFC could simply walk away, leaving Point to suffer it.

The next concerns conflicts of interest eg Point need players in the second half of the IL season to fight a relegation battle, but DFC need to sign players to boost their squad at the start of their new season. Who gets priority?

And finally, what happens if, say, Point aren't producing the benefits which DFC required? DFC could pull the plug, take all the best players and coaches with them and leave Point in the brown stuff.

Which is not to say that two clubs like that couldn't co-operate over matters of mutual interest, but it needs to be at arms length, with transparent boundaries in place.

I saw Warrenpoint play us in a friendly in Longford a few years back. I am not sure what the link was at the time but there should be more friendlies between loi sides and NI league sides. Like I was in Cliftonvilles ground last season(2019) for friendly new ground to tick off for example!

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Originally Posted by Martinho II

I saw Warrenpoint play us in a friendly in Longford a few years back. I am not sure what the link was at the time but there should be more friendlies between loi sides and NI league sides. Like I was in Cliftonvilles ground last season(2019) for friendly new ground to tick off for example!

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There are a few link-ups like that. Sligo play Ballinamallard every year or two, and Rovers had more plans for friendlies with Cliftonville that ended up not working out. Dundalk have played a few different IL clubs in friendlies too, as it probably suits both sides with distance to Belfast half that of Dublin to Belfast (and we all know the NI teams don't like to travel).

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

There are a few link-ups like that. Sligo play Ballinamallard every year or two, and Rovers had more plans for friendlies with Cliftonville that ended up not working out. Dundalk have played a few different IL clubs in friendlies too, as it probably suits both sides with distance to Belfast half that of Dublin to Belfast (and we all know the NI teams don't like to travel).

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Harps and Derry would play preseason and mid season friendlies against Irish League sides every year too.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

In the Irish League, tiny clubs like Institute and Warrenpoint get to the top tier by virtue of the fact that the gap between intermediate and senior football there isn't all that big. They then add nothing to the top level in reality

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/northern-ireland/55117820

YeeHaa! ;)

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

(no fans, no appeal etc),

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Trust me, they had the fans of 10 other teams firmly behind them yesterday!)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Yep. And that's something that's effectively never been there before (or even now). The First Division is the Graveyard for a reason.

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Is it a fair point to make, that in the IL the transport/overnight costs aren't significant (given the relative small distances between clubs), compated to the LoI?

For example. Warrenpoint and Coleraine are probably the two furthest apart IL clubs? Which is about 3 hours drive taking it easy. In a pyramid LoI, you've the potential then to have a very low-cost amateur/semi pro Kerry side, travelling to Finn Harps. That's an overnight and the expense associated with the travel. Of course that's a once-off, but if you're in a league with Buncrana, Harps, Monaghan, and Castlebar say, that racks up quickly.

The alternative is a regionalised first division. Would that work - is there the interest there?

Well that's part of the reason why I'd favour a regionalised First Division (in fact, I've suggested before doing away with the FD and making the LSL/MSL/USL/CSL the de facto First Divisions, with a larger Premier to compensate)

Again, I don't think it's a silver bullet, but you have to encourage clubs to step up somehow.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Well that's part of the reason why I'd favour a regionalised First Division (in fact, I've suggested before doing away with the FD and making the LSL/MSL/USL/CSL the de facto First Divisions, with a larger Premier to compensate)

Again, I don't think it's a silver bullet, but you have to encourage clubs to step up somehow.

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That's a fair point too. I've heard commentary, anecodotal stuff, about the money floating around certain LSL clubs anyway - not necessarily top tier LSL clubs either.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Harps and Derry would play preseason and mid season friendlies against Irish League sides every year too.

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Even at Junior level, you get a lot of players from the border counties* who cross over to play in NI. And the same happens further up the pyramid, right up to Senior level. (Unsure whether it goes the other way).

Though when I say "cross over", they don't always seem to take the most direct route, if their (ahem) "petrol expenses" claims are any guide. :cool:


* - I remember hearing that Shay Given's father played against Roy Carroll's father (both goalkeepers themselves) in the Fermanagh & Western League back in the day, for example.

https://twitter.com/TreatyUnitedFC/s...58054138499073 - all systems, if not exactly at go, are certainly being primed! And I for one am pleased at this development.

Another step in the road. Anyone have any idea when licenses will be announced?

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Originally Posted by sadloserkid

https://twitter.com/TreatyUnitedFC/s...58054138499073 - all systems, if not exactly at go, are certainly being primed! And I for one am pleased at this development.

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SLK, before you know it we'll be back in the game leaning on the wall frozen with the cold, head in our hands at the touches on them, happily questioning why we f**kin bother, it'll be great.

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

SLK, before you know it we'll be back in the game leaning on the wall frozen with the cold, head in our hands at the touches on them, happily questioning why we f**kin bother, it'll be great.

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I can hardly wait! :D

I wonder how the other applications are going, whether or not we'll see movement from the Irish Sea..or other associated invitees.

It's been too long since local media in Limerick has had a chance to ignore a brutal on-pitch display because of a few curse words were heard from the stands.

But who will provide the half-time gift to away supporters? I hope that's in the licensing application.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

I wonder how the other applications are going, whether or not we'll see movement from the Irish Sea..or other associated invitees.

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After the initial novelty of it, I think the Irish Sea thing is wearing pretty thin. Pretty obvious if they somehow join the league, they will be gone in a few years. No thanks. Pretty disrespectful.

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Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

Another step in the road. Anyone have any idea when licenses will be announced?

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Does Early Jan sound about right?

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Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

Anyone have any idea when licenses will be announced?

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Probably a week after the new season starts.

#GLITW

POS' Limerick also allowed to proceed: https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-39845322.html

I presume they must be putting Jackman down as their ground then? Or is he hoping Treaty's application fails and that it'll be OK for him to put down Market's Field?