i keep telling myself it's early days but i'm not really seeing the positives others are seeing.
it could be a tough couple of years ahead like micheal o'neill had with NI.
i keep telling myself it's early days but i'm not really seeing the positives others are seeing.
it could be a tough couple of years ahead like micheal o'neill had with NI.
I still see a lot of positive. It’ll be disappointing not to take something from this game alright, but we look so much more likely to create chances from open play than in the past. It’s not quite happening because things are breaking down at the final stage a lot, but with a bit more sharpness come the next international break I’d be a lot more confident that things might click.Quote:
Originally Posted by zero
You can see how the Fins have qualified. Very organised and play well to their strengths. They might pick us off for another before the end.
Admirable optimism! I don’t recall any dramatic new creativity though. Our best chances came from Finnish mistakes ...Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
And from set pieces. Lack of quality up front is worrying.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_c12000
Yeah, I guess that’s kind of my point too. We haven’t actually created the chances (although at least 3 or 4 second half) but we’re keeping the ball in the opposing half, in areas where, when it does click, chances will be made. I like the way we’re still trying to play ball. As a footballer in that team you’d have to feel like you’re being given a chance to play ball and make things happen. We have an issue with the midfield three, in that the system requires huge energy for 90 minutes and in both games the players have faded. Arter has been impressive here though and might have cemented a place for himself, possibly alongside Molumby and Hendrick or McCathy for the next game.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_c12000
Best Irish player on the pitch was O'Shaughnessy
a two out of ten performance for me. created nothing and looked shaky at the back. lucky to lose by only one.
Could have been two losses with very few chances created. It's worrying times indeed. Was happy with arter but that's about it
1. Hendrick and McCarthy are clearly better at dictating things in midfield than these lads
2. We can't afford the luxury of Coleman on the bench.
3. 4-3-3 is too open for us. We don't have a Keane or McGrath or Frenkie de Jong in midfield to cover the gaps.
Can't see why we can't just play a 4-3-2-1 with nice possession football. Been screaming for this for years. Decades actually.
Irelands best chance of a goal was Finland creating an Irish goal by playing out from the back, badly.
To do one of what Connolly did with his chances coming in from the left was unfortunate ~ ~ to do it twice ( though slightly differently ) is bordering on the wastefully careless.
unless our players start the new club season on fire we have no chance beating slovakia, never mind bosnia. we have to play to our strengths in slovakia.... try to contain them and hit them on the break with connolly, robinson and maybe long. maybe things will get better with time but we are too easy to open up at the moment.
thought arter (i usually am not a fan) and robinson our bright sparks. doherty has disappointed over both matches. would revert to coleman for slovakia
Randolph kept the score down, Thankfully.
Looking for positives in that is absolute bin dipping. Two watery enough sides we've played and all. Didn't hear the Finnish goalkeepers name mentioned til the 89th minute.
It goes to show that international football isn’t like football manager 2020.
Telling the players to pass, pass, pass, using an attacking 433 set up and blooding youngsters isn’t a guarantee of success. It’s going to take a while. Next month playoff is way too soon for us.
We lack somebody to link with attack. I thought Arter had a good game. Full backs were really disappointing (again).
Very obvious how important McGoldrick is. He isnt the prolific goalscorer but his link play and ability to recycle the ball will be crucial to how SK wants to play. Robinson also improved things when he came on. Its so unusual to watch, frustrating even, for such slow build up play watching Ireland. We are used to the helter skelter bombardment of long balls chasing a goal, but that wont happen under SK. He sticks to his methods to the letter. Maybe if it means going out of a play-off it might happen.
It will take time, the players can play as is wanted, they just need to get used to doing iy with each other. McClean must be seen as a having a role but he needs coaching in being a bit more composed when in a handy position considering his experience. We did create a number of good chances and a few half chances too. The goal settled the Fins and they started to look handy for spells in the 2nd half. We had one or 2 spells than wnet both wide and through the middle which we will see more of that type of pressure strung together. Come November there will be a mix and match of the 2 recent starting 11 selections.
I havent decided whether having no fans is good or not in terms of supporting the team during these early days. There would be plenty of groaning and shouting to hoof it in frustration. But it has to be hard for the players to lift themselves and be given that wee bit of energy by the crowd. In terms of this competition Wales are topping the group with 2 very late wins and havent been convincing. Quality of the group overall isnt great but with teams trying things out.
Another disappointing performance against limited opposition. I actually thought Finland could feel aggrieved for not having won by more to be honest.
Pros
- Arter put the boot in and looked the pick in a disappointing midfield.
- McGoldrick improved the forward line when he came on.
- Randolph saved us from conceding a number of additional goals.
Cons
- O'Dowda offered nothing and cannot be a starter in the play-offs.
- Brady whilst tidy with the ball in midfield is a passenger we can't carry when we don't have the ball. He also fades very badly as the game wears on.
- Stevens makes the wrong pass far too often. Max Lowe could easily replace him in the Sheffield United team this season.
- Doherty looks a poorer option in this system than Coleman.
- For all his endeavour Connolly is a headless chicken with the ball and almost never makes the right decision in dangerous positions.
- Kenny needs to realise its no good loading the forward line with pace if you don't drill your players to move the ball forward quick enough to make use of it. Very laboured.
- It is going to be a long road ahead turning this team into the possession based football team Kenny is striving for.
Doherty seems to be a specialist Wing-Back. Certainly to get the best out of him he needs a manager that plays with Wing-Backs. I hope Mourinho is going to use him as a Wing-Back.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
Good Captain-ship from Coleman to give Doherty these Opportunities. Some Captains would be expecting to play these matches.
Made the mistake of looking over at boards. There’s a fine line between a bit of optimism and the absolute blazing negativity over there! Arter said a lot of similar things to what I’ve said in his interview, didn’t create enough but got comfortable defending against them after the first half hour, their goal was out of the blue and their other chances mainly came late on.
We had at least 3 excellent chances, McGoldrick, Robinson and Connolly and there was another that fell between Connolly and Idah. I think players and manager have learned a lot from the camp. I think there’s still a great chance of surprising people in the playoff game.
All this talk of something different and then McClean comes on. An absolutely horrendous player.
Really poor performance. Before this game, we were second seeds for the world cup draw. Now, I would say unless we do something very special we will be third seeds. Russia will get in there ahead of us.
Looking at our team currently with about 2-3 good players, a few solid enough lads and a few talented youngsters, we would get anhilated at the Euros if we do qualify and if we get a tough draw for the world cup, it could be a few bad drubbings in the next 12 months. It somewhat reminds me of the early days of Mick's reign, but at least then aside from talented youngsters, we had some top class players or players who had been top class.
I think we roll the dice next month and if we don't qualify, then we completely bring through a new team getting rid of the likes of McClean, Brady, and Hendrick. I would keep our defence to be fair as they are generally not a bad unit. Work towards Euro 2024 and let them grow. Not a hope this bunch could qualify for a world cup but come 2024 or 2026 we could have a decent team.
Could be a long couple of years ahead here for us. So, so many problems with that second half performance for me, could have lost 3-0 easily. When your best player is clearly your keeper it is never a good sign.
It's all good and well passing the ball over and back but we simply don't have midfielders that are going to create something out of nothing, so the only way we can play that kind of game plan with success is to bring a lot more urgency and drive to our play in order to open up chances. We did that for 10 minutes after half time and for a few minutes after the goal but otherwise it just wasn't there.
Individually there were some very poor performances. Stevens was posted missing on a few occasions at left back and seemed very hesitant on the ball, he seemed to overthink everything in possession rather than having any natural instinct for what to do. Let his man get away for the goal as well.
Idah looks to have been promoted ahead of time. He needs a season of first team football and some more time with the under 21s, who need him next month in any case, I wouldn't have him in the next senior squad.
O'Dowda is 1) not particularly good and 2) totally unsuited to playing alongside an attacking full back like Doherty, he was a waste of a jersey for almost an hour. We need a forward playing in that position to support the centre forward, particularly if the centre forward is McGoldrick, who drifts out of the box a lot.
McClean got on the ball seven or eight times when he came on and I think he found a teammate once, and it was from a throw in. As an impact sub the only impact he had was to give the ball away and put us under more pressure.
The game plan really needs us to take our chances when they come, because both games have shown us how susceptible we are to quick breaks from the opposition. Both goals conceded this week came from these kind of breaks and we could have conceded a few more tonight. At the same time we seem to have no interest in counter attacking ourselves and Kenny has said previously that it is not part of the game plan - this is worrying.
The worst thing is that I don't even think either Bulgaria or Finland are much good. Finland are better organised and have Pukki but I think they'll be eaten alive in that Euros group they're in to be honest. And they still could have beaten us 3-0 today and we could have had no complaints. I fear what a genuinely good team might do to us right now. Thankfully I don't think there are any outstanding teams either in our Nation's League group or playoff group, so we might be spared a drubbing for a while at least.
In terms of positives I thought Doherty came onto a game somewhat and Arter was lively to be fair. McGoldrick was good when introduced and has to start next month. Obviously Randolph had a great game.
It really does look like a long road ahead here, we're committed to changing the way we play and we have to stick with it and back the team and management. But I could see things getting worse before they get better to be honest.
? We played much better against Bulgaria with Hendrick in midfield.Quote:
think we roll the dice next month and if we don't qualify, then we completely bring through a new team getting rid of the likes of McClean, Brady, and Hendrick.
A 33-year-old keeper too. With no real backups available at all at present.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Randolph has another couple of years in him - if he wants of course - but we're running out of time for Travers/Kelleher/O'Hara/AN Other to break through. It's another headache if they fall down the leagues
And we had a few other good chances which were not converted. 3 forwards on the field over the 90 minutes and still we don't score goals. Most games end up being defined by Shane Duffy, whether he scores or misses.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
dont share the optimism sorry. we have scored a miserable amount of goals over the last two years and now we are conceeding very soft goals against weak enough teams. our players are underperforming and have been for a few years irrespective of who the manager isQuote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
Good post that. I agree that things could get better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
I actually could cope with an 18 or 19 year old giving in a poor performance because the likes of Idah, Molumby and Connolly might learn from it, but there is a strong cohort of that squad that never deliver for us.
Obviously we need to go all out next month, because even if I wouldn't be confident at all if we qualified of getting more than 1 point in the group, it would be lovely to see us at a major tournament playing in Dublin. If we don't and we get a cluster**** of a wc 2022 group as I think we will, I would love a clearing of the decks bar a few notable players.
I wouldnt disagree with much. In fear of having a SK bias as a Dundalk fan, he did get players of arguably a lesser standard to play as he wanted. Of course he had the players daily on the training pitch. But these lads will have undergone manager and system changes pretty often at club level, so its not a huge leap for them imo. It's 2 games and maybe a handful of days training so far, and a lot more contact hours are needed. That near term pain for longer term gain is very likely to happen. I just hope that patience is shown and that the managers credentials dont get chucked at him. Seeing incremental improvements may be needed to keep the position safe?Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
MO'N was given time with N.I. and I think more relevent is MMcC taking 8 or 9 games to get thing going, and getting to the level of 'what ifs' with some luck in a WC penalty shootout. I do believe we have a better group of young lads coming through than we have had for a while, probably since McCarthy's first spell. With the likes of Connolly, he has great potential, a work in progress and ye dont want that enigmatic trait coached out of him. There is huge expectation also. It could be a blessing in disguise that Parrott hasnt been able to play and so is protected somewhat from feeling like he has to instantly step up. If people think back to a young Robbie Keane, he was all over the place, frenetic, an uncontrolled ball of energy. It wasnt really until he spent time with the complete opposite in Berbatov at Spurs that he looked less manic and more composed. Even then he could miss a sitter ye score a scorcher.
We need to prepare for sitting out Euro 2020, and look to how our antiquated methods have seen us drift further and further off the pace especially when at finals. I want to qualify and again be a side that nobody wants to really draw. We could have stuck with the plucky Irish type performances, getting occasional good results but by and large be among the minnows in the draw. This is a chance to move forward and I think it is absolutely possible to do so!
I should have said that a player that could well be a big part of the puzzle is Jack Byrne!
Yes he did but Bulgaria are no great shakes and secondly I would never rely on him in a game. He has attributes of a top player but like Brady, he is a highly unreliable player.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
Finland gifted us a couple of chances. Did we even create one for ourselves?
Really poor. Finland were good value for their win. Maybe looked a bit better when McGoldrick came on, but mainly because he was dropping deep to inject a bit of urgency into midfield.
They're obviously trying to pass the ball a bit more, which is a positive, but it was all very slow and predictable and at times I feel it crossed the line to passing for the sake of passing. In the absense of a player who can open an opposition up we may have to be a bit more pragmatic in the final third. Wales play the way I think we're trying to, but they have Bale to hang it all around.
But it was another cap for the young lads. None of them looked totally out of their depth.
Agree with most of this. Two games and only two or three days on the training ground
It was obvious that Finland have had a much longer time together on this display. Very much a work in progress. And you are right, it was a game which was crying out for the creative skills of a Jack Byrne
at least one anyway. robinsons one on one after finland scored prob the best. a few half chances too like robinsons cross that connolly should have connected with and mcgoldrick had a shot on goal which was well enough workedQuote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Collective failure really. Everything in slow motion. No urgency to get forward. Few options for players in possession. Very passive in defence. The pitch looked far too big for us.
I think the criticism of O'Dowda is very unfair. Nobody was great, but the work he did down the right in the move that ended with Arters shot was probably the best thing any of them did in the first half. The ball across the box was excellent and a more experienced striker than Idah would maybe have checked his run and got on to it.
midfield is a concern. we cant play 3 mids at this point. 3-4-3 is a balance formation. we can get the best out of players. we need Clark. as it seems..
-------------------randolph----------------------
coleman-----------egan-------------clark
doherty jimbo------arter-------stevens
brady----------mcgoldrick--------connolly
We were fortunate not to concede 3 or 4.
It was the lack of urgency and unbelievably slow pace that surprised me. You can have as much possession as you want if it is playing it across the back 4 - won't worry anyone.
In a recent game Cullen was MOM for us I thnk. It was some of his creativity that was missing - yet did not even make the squad.
At least Arter showed some intent.
Who the hell is picking these man of the match awards - O'Dowda against Bulgaria and now Robbie Brady tonight? Randolph was our best player by a distance, our best outfield player was probably Arter. Brady wasn't by any means the worst but I fail to see how he could justifiably be MoM.
I think what SK was saying was that we wouldnt sit back and hit on the counter. His game plan is possession based and moving the ball forward at pace without a hail mary hoof, move breaks down then back it goes and build again. The quick ball out from the keeper and looking to work the ball forward at pace is or will be counter attacking. Making sure the players keep switched on at all times with quick throw ins, short quick frees even when its looks ideal for a set peice, short corners when everyone is expecting a ball for Duffy to play the odds. Staying on the front foot, probing with pacey runners hitting multiple channels, I can see the green shoots of already. Didnt happen tonight or v Bulgaria with great success but early doors. Imo its a mix of new ideas, its preseason for these lads, very unusual atmosphere. We lacked obvious experienced composure and creativity but if we had scored a groove would have been hit as Finland did after their goal. Yup Stevens in particular went awol. Maybe I am being too easy on the performances but I dont know what people expect over 180mins of a radical change in style and a few days of prep for that. I would also see these couple of games as 'trials' almost, experimenting as with friendly games that happen to be LoN games. Come the games in November there will be a collective being at the races. Even if that is simply as there will generally be club games under the belts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
But Nesta there hasn't been a radical change in style that's the point. There's been worrying signs like being carved open straight down the middle and our CBs getting caught out but there's been nothing positive on the other side. We were slowing everything down. Corners , free kicks throw ins. Not sure what you were watching but I didn't see anything of what you're talking about
I don’t know enough about Kenny’s character but is he the kind of guy that will double down on the 433 or will he tweak straight away?
There is going to be a knee jerk reaction from the press/fans, that’s just the way the world works now (unfortunately) but I was just curious if people think he’ll make changes because the big game is only next month. I don’t think 433 suits the players that were in that squad panel. Maybe McGoldrick starting gives the formation a better chance of working because he does drop deep.
It’s crazy to think he’s under pressure already but I’ve already seen posts on Facebook/twitter saying he’s a fraud because he has never managed in the PL blah blah and Big Mick would have qualified with his eyes closed. The usual nonsense spouted after a bad result.
I know we all get excited when a young Irish player plays well at a good level but it does show that international football is a different level altogether. Its a huge step up and it’s going to take them 10 caps before they find their feet.
If we do continue to play this way then the tempo has to be increased considerably for it to have any chance to work. I know it’s still pre-season and not expecting them to go 100mph all the time but you cannot play 1st gear for large portions of the game.
Really hard to assess things this early in the tenure and considering our guys are in preseason, but one thing that is clear to me based on the two matches is that there’s no obvious solution or player that will fix everything. Many of our players have their weak points and there were very few players who emerged undroppable for Slovakia (Randolph the notable exception).
There’s a lot of condescension at times in here about certain players and how they would change everything. I think we saw here that McCarthy will need time to re-integrate, and the likes of Molumby and Connolly will need some more blooding before they’re the finished article.
Even the likes of Doherty, a clearly immensely talented player, needs to find his feet and groove in this system.
I fear Slovakia might come too soon for us, but hopefully a month of club football will put our players in a better position to succeed.