League of Ireland Finances

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Indulge me, what have you taken exception to? Why the lashing out rather than calmly addressing the points made. Getting in to a rage undermines your posts. I know plenty about LoI and SRFC - having a different perspective on what happens is not necessarily ridiculous or lacking in 'education. Points are are often made on opinion or interpretaton of facts, it doesnt mean points are automatically incorrect if you disagree. Why dont you engage in discussion instead of jumping straight in with accusations and childish namecalling along with agressive choice language. Be thankful you support a very lucky club that has not ceased to exist at times of adversity. Hard work needs a dollop of good luck too....

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Listen I tried to indulge you and you said I was evasive (god knows where you got that from) and you asked questions about stuff that shamrock rovers as a club have actually publicly stated and has been gone over multiple times here (I'm actually fairly sure I've even told you them specifically before). You're points were not a misinterpretation of facts they were just plain wrong. As for knowing plenty about srfc your posts say the exact opposite, either that or you were being deliberately obtuse. Then you topped it all off by calling probably the most unlucky club in the country lucky because you decided to use very specific time lines to suit your agenda.

You did all this to deflect from the fact that the facts show that Dundalks business plan isn't working and is costing their owners money, for an investment firm that is not a good thing, as that quite rightly scares you so you try deflect by coming out with a load of rubbish and getting offended when it's pointed out how stupid you're being.

What exactly is so lucky about Rovers exactly?

Also a bit of swearing = aggressive now does it? Grow the **** up.

So where did you get the figures of €1mil being injected by the owners of Dundalk FC? asked for the umpteenth time with no answer! If you dont think aspects of uour posts were angry and agressive you need to have a good read back and seek some anger managment guidance it was a tad more than 'a bit of swearing'.. Rovers are still a lucky club, how long is the clug on the go and how long without a permanent home? You are hardly basing your assessment of SRFC on the specific time frame between the loss of Milltown for nothing and the gaining of Tallaght for nothing!? Luckier than Druncondra, Kilkenny, Monaghan, any club that has gone out of business. So unlucky that you top league and cup wins....I dont need to resort to insults or hissy fits, people can see how you behave when anything is said that doesnt sit in line with your own blinkered view on things.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

So where did you get the figures of €1mil being injected by the owners of Dundalk FC? asked for the umpteenth time with no answer! If you dont think aspects of uour posts were angry and agressive you need to have a good read back and seek some anger managment guidance it was a tad more than 'a bit of swearing'.. Rovers are still a lucky club, how long is the clug on the go and how long without a permanent home? You are hardly basing your assessment of SRFC on the specific time frame between the loss of Milltown for nothing and the gaining of Tallaght for nothing!? Luckier than Druncondra, Kilkenny, Monaghan, any club that has gone out of business. So unlucky that you top league and cup wins....I dont need to resort to insults or hissy fits, people can see how you behave when anything is said that doesnt sit in line with your own blinkered view on things.

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Clearly your reading skills aren't great

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

It was in a piece in the independent.

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You seem to be unable to grasp the difference between hard work and luck

The irony levels are through the roof here

JEEZ some load of tosh there lads we all love our clubs but the childish we have more fans, youse have more money, your ground is ****e, youse got a free ground is extreme numptyism. Will we get off this rock before it goes tits up, just dont know.

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Originally Posted by Kingswood Rover

JEEZ some load of tosh there lads we all love our clubs but the childish we have more fans, youse have more money, your ground is ****e, youse got a free ground is extreme numptyism. Will we get off this rock before it goes tits up, just dont know.

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Agreed., even the last bit, which makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Dalymountrower

Agreed., even the last bit, which makes no sense.

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Are we mature enough as a species to not blow ourselves up or fcuk up the planet to the extent that there is no footy before we find a new one

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Clearly your reading skills aren't great



You seem to be unable to grasp the difference between hard work and luck

The irony levels are through the roof here

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More pensonalised insults!

Where is the irony?

Have you really answered where you got your €1mil figure from, What was in the independant, how Rovers spent spent grant money paying players and made a mess of their Tallaght project, i bet it was hard work keeping that under wraps all right!! If you say something was quoted in a paper link the piece. Rovers are a lucky club, it was in The Time...

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Originally Posted by Kingswood Rover

JEEZ some load of tosh there lads we all love our clubs but the childish we have more fans, youse have more money, your ground is ****e, youse got a free ground is extreme numptyism. Will we get off this rock before it goes tits up, just dont know.

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You may well be right, but seeing how quickly and how often RH loses the plot, has a hissy fit, resorts to name calling is quite amusing!

Some interesting stuff here.Knew most of the figures about splitting the gate etc in cup matches...but some interesting points from the Sligo treasurer.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/cash-as-much-of-an-incentive-as-cup-glory-for-sligo-rovers-1.4032854

Yea hats off to the sligo supporters for keeping the whole show on the road years after year.

Gas that the FAI promised that anything over break even for the 2010 final would be given to the clubs and that they reneged on it then.

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Originally Posted by redarmyfaction

Gas that the FAI promised that anything over break even for the 2010 final would be given to the clubs and that they reneged on it then.

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A shame that didn't make its way into the media at the time (or at least 'more' into the media if it did).

Signs even 9yrs ago that all was not well financially with Delaney's empire.

https://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/...-for-2019.html

Key part for me there is

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Nonetheless, the club still had over €1.3 million to its name

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If they burn through another €1.2m this year, the Euro cash will be effectively gone. What happens then?

To try and put a bit of perspective on Dundalks losses ... What Dundalk lost in 2019 is the cost of running Sligo Rovers completely from top to bottom for that season.

When you think of the money they took in plus the state of Oriel it really is madness.

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Originally Posted by redobit

To try and put a bit of perspective on Dundalks losses ... What Dundalk lost in 2019 is the cost of running Sligo Rovers completely from top to bottom for that season.

When you think of the money they took in plus the state of Oriel it really is madness.

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It is worrying indeed. There is some small solace in that the figures were released rather than hideen. It also includes facilitiy improvement, not that supporters will see that directly. Recent interviews with Bob Hulsizer also give some little reassurance. The questions on sustainability and lack of ground improvements will roll on with such monies spent. Let European football commence sooner that later....

I'm no Accountant, so am in no position to analyse these figures to be good or bad.

But the club will have had a good idea of how the figures were shaping up by the end of last year.

Which was also when CEO Mark Devlin, only appointed in April 2019, departed Oriel Park:
https://www.todayfm.com/sport/dundal...-months-921757

He says it was for "family reasons", which may be entirely correct, but to relocate to another country then move back after just 7 months is fairly drastic.

At a minimum, it might have been an easier decision to make if he could also see that his budgets were liable to be curtailed in 2020?

Which, of course, was before taking Covid-19 into account.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

It also includes facilitiy improvement, not that supporters will see that directly.

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That was a bit of a strange one - it sounds like something which would normally be capitalised, and so would actually not be included on the €1.2m (well, it might be depreciated over 10 years, in which case 10% of the cost would have gone in)

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

It is worrying indeed. There is some small solace in that the figures were released rather than hideen. It also includes facilitiy improvement, not that supporters will see that directly. Recent interviews with Bob Hulsizer also give some little reassurance. The questions on sustainability and lack of ground improvements will roll on with such monies spent. Let European football commence sooner that later....

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All clubs who apply for a UEFA Licence must publish their accounts on their website as part of achieving the licence.

From memory there was far more detail in the 2018 accounts published. Looks like the bare minimum is shown in the 2019 accounts.

It can't go on forever and the cash reserves will reduce but unlike Shelbourne for one example, this loss (big) is not going to debt, its being paid from cash at bank. Reducing, unles P6 pick it up, which they might.

Regardless its still a big loss but P6 obviously see this as a good (cheap) investment, as mad as this sounds, one more round progression (if via CL route) and it can be worth not far below 1m per round, and possibly up to EL play off round might be worth 3.5m.

Big loss yes, but fine margins, you still need to have a huge panel to perform at this level, DFC also have a new signing Colovic from the Serbia who hasn't kicked a league ball yet, but exactly the type you need to perform at this level.

Hopefully if this guy is as good as Adjoran, half of 2017, scored important winner v Cork, but never played in Europe, recalled to Italy, this is the quality you need to progress, again fine margins, lose v Bratislava = next year loss, win possible profit, fine margins.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

All clubs who apply for a UEFA Licence must publish their accounts on their website as part of achieving the licence.

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Do national associations have to do the same? Accounts published dont always reflect the reality, Derry not so long ago being an example and there are other examples also. I doubt any Dundalk fan is comfortable with the figures published but it doesnt mean that things are terminal for the club. We are more than capable for getting through a couple of rounds in Europe which would cover losses. Doesnt make it easy or sensible but it is what it is. There seems to be a sense of people queuing up waiting for Dundalk FC to become a casualty of financial russian roulette. Not at all within the spirit of showing that the game here is worth investing in. I've enjoyed things in recent seasons and will continue to do so with confidence in the owners committment!

Any talk in Dundalk about Alan Reynolds going there as assistant manager? There's been a lot of speculation here that he is in line for that job. Waterford are in a bit of a mess at the moment so no one is blaming him if he does go. He was very unhappy at the way the staff were laid off by email a few months ago. Informed sources say Lee Power wants to sell up and is not interested in funding the club to play for the rest of the season. Who would want to buy a club now?

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Originally Posted by trevy

Any talk in Dundalk about Alan Reynolds going there as assistant manager? There's been a lot of speculation here that he is in line for that job. Waterford are in a bit of a mess at the moment so no one is blaming him if he does go. He was very unhappy at the way the staff were laid off by email a few months ago. Informed sources say Lee Power wants to sell up and is not interested in funding the club to play for the rest of the season. Who would want to buy a club now?

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If anyone walks away from any of our clubs now they should have the courage to pull the plug themselves. If an owner withdraws funding in the current circumstances it’s a death sentence for a club. The FAI proposals are depressing at best they want clubs to pay players for a glorified kick about and want fans to pay for the pleasure of watching it’s a awful idea.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Do national associations have to do the same? Accounts published dont always reflect the reality, Derry not so long ago being an example and there are other examples also. I doubt any Dundalk fan is comfortable with the figures published but it doesnt mean that things are terminal for the club. We are more than capable for getting through a couple of rounds in Europe which would cover losses. Doesnt make it easy or sensible but it is what it is. There seems to be a sense of people queuing up waiting for Dundalk FC to become a casualty of financial russian roulette. Not at all within the spirit of showing that the game here is worth investing in. I've enjoyed things in recent seasons and will continue to do so with confidence in the owners committment!

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No, national association's don't have to publish on their website. But clubs as members should get a copy. I guess too, that they are lodged with whatever the southern equivalent of Companies House??

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

We are more than capable for getting through a couple of rounds in Europe which would cover losses.

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Tbf, you're also capable of going out first time - just takes an unlucky draw or a bad refereeing decision etc.

It reminds me of Liverpool back in the day when they were winning all round them, both England and Europe. They always budgeted for 21 home league games and one home European tie (you could always get drawn away in the opening leg of the FA and Lge Cups and get eliminated).

Anything over and above that was a bonus, and if it lead to a profit at the end of the season, they generally invested it in new players for the following season, to avoid paying tax on it.

Contrast that with Leeds Utd in the days of Ridsdale and O'Leary etc, when their whole financial model was built on Champions League money. They got to the CL Semi's in 2000/01, then the UEFA Cup the following two seasons (exited in Rds. 4 and 3), then got relegated to the Championship in 2003/04, where they've stayed ever since.

And they're the "Champions of Europe" in perpetuity!

Of course, and is the sensible way of looking at any prizemoney. It is more a trying to be glass half full in thinking as seeing cash reserves demolished isnt so comfortable. But P6 could be fully true to their committment as they have stated previously.

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Originally Posted by trevy

Any talk in Dundalk about Alan Reynolds going there as assistant manager? There's been a lot of speculation here that he is in line for that job. Waterford are in a bit of a mess at the moment so no one is blaming him if he does go. He was very unhappy at the way the staff were laid off by email a few months ago. Informed sources say Lee Power wants to sell up and is not interested in funding the club to play for the rest of the season. Who would want to buy a club now?

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Yes two local media sources saying this could be confirmed next week. Dundalk also agreed compensation of €40k with FAI for Higgins moving out, so looks like Reynolds will be replacing Higgins role, officially called 'Assistant Manager' but I think the role is day to day coaching.

Until VP get his badges confirmed, possibly held back due to C-19, he will remain as Head Coach and John Gill as manager but everyone knows VP is no 1, seems Gill is happy to stay for as long as they need his services and is happy to help out. His role was important though to assist VP settle in, first year, has good exp.

I think Reynolds would be a very good appointment, seems to be a first class coach.

Sorry for the scene with Waterford though, Lee Power hasn't covered himself in glory.

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Originally Posted by oriel

DFC also have a new signing Colovic from the Serbia who hasn't kicked a league ball yet, but exactly the type you need to perform at this level.

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Perhaps you are thinking of Nathan Oduwa who was signed the week the league was suspended and hasn't played yet as a consequence.

Stefan Colovic made his league debut for Dundalk when he came on for the last 20 minutes against Finn Harps in the last league match. He look promising and struck the post in that 4-0 win.

It will be interesting to see if Colovic or Oduwa can displace any of Michael Duffy, Daniel Kelly or John Mountney

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Originally Posted by oriel

Yes two local media sources saying this could be confirmed next week. Dundalk also agreed compensation of €40k with FAI for Higgins moving out, so looks like Reynolds will be replacing Higgins role, officially called 'Assistant Manager' but I think the role is day to day coaching.

Until VP get his badges confirmed, possibly held back due to C-19, he will remain as Head Coach and John Gill as manager but everyone knows VP is no 1, seems Gill is happy to stay for as long as they need his services and is happy to help out. His role was important though to assist VP settle in, first year, has good exp.

I think Reynolds would be a very good appointment, seems to be a first class coach.

Sorry for the scene with Waterford though, Lee Power hasn't covered himself in glory.

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Power was a disgrace for investing under cover that he loved Waterford as he had family ties. Was he lying all along I wonder? The other club hes investing in the UK is he cutting back on to on that?

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Originally Posted by Martinho II

Power was a disgrace for investing under cover that he loved Waterford as he had family ties. Was he lying all along I wonder? The other club hes investing in the UK is he cutting back on to on that?

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Hmmm. He was claiming on 18 May that with this virus interruption etc, as many as 30-40% of Lge One and Two clubs might not make it through to next season:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52706893
Which if pessimistic, is not completely impossible, I suppose.

In any case, it will have nothing to do with this from 20 May, oh no, nothing at all:
"Swindon chairman Lee Power has told a court that the club could go into administration as he failed to overturn an injunction preventing its sale.

Power told the High Court that he cannot afford to cover the League Two side's losses.

He said an American-based company called Able are willing to buy the Robins for £7.5m.

But the court heard two men who own part of the club had not been consulted and had concerns over the sale."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52737205

And I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation for this little misunderstanding which was aired in court the following day:
"Claims former England midfielder Gareth Barry invested £800,000 into Swindon Town in 2013 are being looked into by the Football Association.

The allegations were revealed in a High Court judgement involving the League Two club's chairman, Lee Power, who said West Bromwich Albion's Barry provided the money.

Power also said Barry, who was at Manchester City at the time, did not own any shares but was "entitled to 50% of profits" from any increase in the club's value, and from certain player sales.

According to the judge, Barry said "categorically" he was not an investor and did not have an agreement with Power, but instead lent money to his agent, Michael Standing, to fund the acquisition of the club.

Under FA regulations, agents are not allowed to own clubs because of potential conflicts of interest."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52763312

So there you have it:
Lee Power, football club owner, former football agent and friend of John Delaney, can surely be relied upon as a man of total integrity, especially when it comes to money matters. :good:

And then there's this little gem, involving some more money resting in Power's account:

The Andrew Black Incident

Mr Matt Richie is a Scottish international footballer and played for the Club until he was sold in January 2013 (before the acquisition) to AFC Bournemouth. He was then sold on in July 2016 to Newcastle United FC and this triggered a payment to the Club of £1.85 million under the terms upon which he had been sold to AFC Bournemouth. On Mr Standing's version of the agreement, the £1.85 million was "surplus" funds and should have been split equally between him and Mr Power.
However, Mr Standing says that he was told by Mr Power that the former owner, Mr Black, who had the debenture covering his £2 million loan to the Club, was seeking repayment of the loan from the monies received in respect of the transfer of Mr Richie. This was a surprise to Mr Standing as he thought that Mr Black would only be repaid on a sale of the Club. Nevertheless, he accepted Mr Power's explanation and he even provided a further £75,000 in order to clear completely, as he was led to believe, Mr Black's loan (that was half the difference between £2m and £1.85m). That meant that rather than receiving c.£925,000 from the on-sale of Mr Richie, he paid £75,000 more to the Club to repay Mr Black's loan.
In mid-2019 however, Mr Standing discovered that Mr Black had not been repaid his loan and the debenture still existed. This was confirmed by Mr Black's accountant and does not appear to be disputed by Mr Power. No explanation has been provided by Mr Power as to why he said one thing and did another and the strong suspicion is that those monies were paid to Mr Power not the Club. That would be consistent with what Mr Power says in paragraph 48 of his Defence that he:
"…agreed a compromise under which he offered to give credit to Gareth Barry for half of the 'sell-on' fee in respect of Matt Richie when it came to discharging the debenture with Black/Arbib[2] which Gareth Barry [sic] against the amount for which Gareth Barry would otherwise have been liable as set out in paragraph 11(ii) above."
The discovery that Mr Power had not paid Mr Black out of the proceeds of the on-sale of Mr Richie was of serious concern to Mr Standing.

The above was taken at random from a "Court Cases" thread on a Swindon Town fans' forum, opened on May 19th:
https://thetownend.com/index.php?topic=58223.0

It's already 38 pages, and it's only one thread of many in 'The Boardroom' section.

I'd guess Waterford fans of a sensitive or nervous disposition might be advised not to go near it.

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

Perhaps you are thinking of Nathan Oduwa who was signed the week the league was suspended and hasn't played yet as a consequence.

Stefan Colovic made his league debut for Dundalk when he came on for the last 20 minutes against Finn Harps in the last league match. He look promising and struck the post in that 4-0 win.

It will be interesting to see if Colovic or Oduwa can displace any of Michael Duffy, Daniel Kelly or John Mountney

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Yes sir, I stand corrected, Colovic did indeed make his debut in Donegal and almost scored ! I forgot about Oduwa !

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Originally Posted by Martinho II

Power was a disgrace for investing under cover that he loved Waterford as he had family ties. Was he lying all along I wonder? The other club hes investing in the UK is he cutting back on to on that?

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Look its a tough one on Waterford, same for any club when a main investor pulls out. Also from my LOI hat I was disappointed to see how it ended. I think he should have sought more concrete guarantees though on if they were 100% confirmed for EL after finishing 4th, other than Delaney's - sure you will be grand lads...……

That was probably the start of the end, when they missed out on the 250k and who knows with a fortunate draw could have been two rounds, and more cash - they had a decent side at that stage, maybe not that experienced for Europe, but as much as it was of course a massive gain for Pats, still a massive kick in the xxxxx for Waterford when it was pulled.

I was down once during this period and the place was hopping, both stands sold out, Waterford actually beat DFC that night, but the horrible focus that evening was the awful injury that Stephen O'Donnell got and the massive hold up on the game. After that the result was such less of a priority or concern.

I still think about that night, the crowd must have been close to 4k, and the loads of folk talking about the game later that night in the pubs, real shame this couldn't have been built on, but maybe they can do it again, one thing for sure, we only had 300 or so at the game, was a huge turnout locally. So the interest is there.

Yes that was a great night. There was a real buzz around the place then with huge crowds at games.
The situation at Swindon that Ealing Green posted about is concerning. A guy who runs the Blues supporters Facebook page has been posting up links to what's been happening there with the court cases and financial problems.
That along with not being allowed play in Europe last year and of course the shutdown of football due to Covid 19 adds up to 3 major issues that are hitting Waterford.

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Originally Posted by trevy

Yes that was a great night. There was a real buzz around the place then with huge crowds at games.
The situation at Swindon that Ealing Green posted about is concerning. A guy who runs the Blues supporters Facebook page has been posting up links to what's been happening there with the court cases and financial problems.
That along with not being allowed play in Europe last year and of course the shutdown of football due to Covid 19 adds up to 3 major issues that are hitting Waterford.

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Hopefully ye can get your issues sorted out as I dont want ye to do a Limerick and always liked my visits down South and have great memories of matches v us from down there and up in Longford! Ye have being bridesmaids for so long and its a pity it hasnt worked out. When Hendo was in charge of ye I thought ye were going to go from strength to strength and yet it never happened at all!

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Originally Posted by oriel

That was probably the start of the end, when they missed out on the 250k and who knows with a fortunate draw could have been two rounds, and more cash - they had a decent side at that stage, maybe not that experienced for Europe... ... still a massive kick in the xxxxx for Waterford when it was pulled.

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Not unreasonable, except that in the event of such a scenario materialising, that's still only half the battle.

The second half is ensuring that the profit from eg a European run goes back into the club, rather than into the account, say, of the majority shareholder.

If one were of a cynical disposition - perish the thought - one might imagine that outside investors generally only become involved with football clubs like Waterford when they see an opportunity of making a profit from them, and then only until the profit runs out (or fails to accrue at all), at which point they will run out, too.

Not that Mr. Power would ever behave like that. Oh no, not at all. Never.

And in any case, even if someone were so inclined, he/she would still have to get past the LOI's stringent vetting, accounting and reporting procedures which, as we all know, are watertight.

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Originally Posted by Martinho II

Hopefully ye can get your issues sorted out as I dont want ye to do a Limerick and always liked my visits down South and have great memories of matches v us from down there and up in Longford! Ye have being bridesmaids for so long and its a pity it hasnt worked out. When Hendo was in charge of ye I thought ye were going to go from strength to strength and yet it never happened at all!

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Waterford is one of my favourite away trips, was down when Derry lost to Shane Griffin's rocket. Hopefully they pull through, along with everyone else.

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Originally Posted by trevy

Any talk in Dundalk about Alan Reynolds going there as assistant manager? There's been a lot of speculation here that he is in line for that job. Waterford are in a bit of a mess at the moment so no one is blaming him if he does go. He was very unhappy at the way the staff were laid off by email a few months ago. Informed sources say Lee Power wants to sell up and is not interested in funding the club to play for the rest of the season. Who would want to buy a club now?

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Lee Power is not at Waterford for the right reasons. It seems that he's only there because he fell for the John Delaney schtick, including the phantom European place.

Whether it's now or not, it's only a matter of time before he cuts and runs. Waterford fans could do with setting up a Supporters Trust, if they haven't already got one.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020...eturn-oconnor/

Where are Shelbourne getting the cash to cover their wages. AFAIK they have to pay out the 70% then claim it back from the government.