Agree - taking off Hoolahan summed what an idiot he is- a chancer who's been truly exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
2 points at home from Serbs,Wales and Austria sums it up
Agree - taking off Hoolahan summed what an idiot he is- a chancer who's been truly exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
2 points at home from Serbs,Wales and Austria sums it up
Got what we deserved there tbh. Poor poor stuff. Subs were confusing; not the kind of guys I'd have called on at such a key moment.
But ultimately we ran out of steam and had very few ideas.
Don't know to what extent that's O'Neill and to what extent it's the lack of players coming through.
We're in for a long spell in the doldrums here
Wales at home and Serbia at home we have had a man advantage against higher seeded teams for much of the game but still failed to score. I know he's hated with a rabid passion on here due to comments about the LoI, but I think Trap was a better manager than Martin O'Neil if I'm honest.
Duff is right its not tonight its the abysmal play and management in previous games. Watch o Neill come out now and say we deserved something tonight as if the rest of the group matches never happened....
We should still be ok to make Euro 2020, given so many teams qualify. Anyway at every world cup there is usually at least one Uefa team which is somewhat lacking in flair but well managed (Capellos Russia in 2014, Slovenia and Slovakia in 2010, possibly Poland in 2006). It's hard but we would have a chance with a competent manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
A lot of semi-decent sides didn't make the last Euros. Wouldn't need as confident as to say we "should be ok"
I can't fault the effort. The players gave their all but I do sometimes wish they would use their brains.
Walters pushing defenders, McClean thinking he's Messi and shooting from 30 yards and
Christie never learning to cross a ball.
I thought we played well until the goal went in and then we pressed the panic button. Walters is either finished or not fit. He would have stayed with Kolarov 2 or 3 seasons ago.
I'm presuming Hoolahan is struggling after the injury rumours. Meyler played well.
I'm watching on Sky and they show the Welsh first goal....the 17 year old lad from Liverpool comes on a sub, burns his man and puts in a beautiful ball for the goal. You could ask McClean, Brady and Christie to try that 100 times each tonight and they'd overhit it. That sums us up.
Well, that's that then.
Great start and we showed such promise but we just turned to muck again in the second half once Wes was brought off. Was he injured or what? Even with Serbia down to ten men, we couldn't take advantage because the second-half tactics aren't effective for exploiting an extra man. Same as against Wales when they went down to ten men after Taylor got sent off.
Even if we do beat Wales in Cardiff (which is extremely unlikely) and finish second, we're almost certain to miss out on the play-offs. We're relying on miracles. The RTÉ pundits seem to be assuming that a win in Wales will be enough for us. Clueless.
Such a deflating few days when things were looking so hopeful only a few months ago.
Don't forget we should have got a penalty. How a supposed top ref misses something as blatant as that beggars belief. Gutted. We ultimately aren't good enough.
Just listening to Martin O'Neill's post-match interview with Tony on RTÉ there and he thinks qualification is "still in our hands". What planet is he on? He's getting paid thousands to qualify us for the World Cup and evidently hasn't even done his homework on the criteria group runners-up have to satisfy in order to qualify for the play-offs. Because the worst runner-up out of the nine groups doesn't qualify for the play-offs, we're relying on multiple very unlikely results to go our way in other groups now (if we do somehow finish second, that is).
At present, Wales are the lowest ranked of the second-placed teams:
http://i67.tinypic.com/2a8m936.png
Go for it TOD ask him will he leave if we don't win our last two matches
You're right, it is unlikely we'll qualify even if we beat Wales, but if Bosnia are beaten by Belgium in Belgium, they'd have to beat Estonia at home in their last match assuming we beat Moldova and Wales.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I haven't left a match as gutted in such a long time.
I just can't work out the decision making that was on view tonight.
Whatever about taking Hoolahan off because he had tired, the lack of shape and brainless play that followed his exit was just gutting.
There's just so much I want to say but ultimately I'm too tired, sad and angry to convey it.
Such a shame. But we have ended up with what we deserved for such moronic management earlier in the group.
Long time listener,first time caller....damage done earlier in this group,we'll look back and weep over the opportunity that was there to qualify out of this group,obviously there's still a chance but have to be pessimistic.This type of performance should be the template,aggressive,high tempo mixing it with good football.Meyler superb,mobility in the middle of the park?...what's that all about!!
Gutted. Just gutted.
I thought we were superb. Threw everything at them. It just didn't happen.
This is what drives me mad about rte TOD should have said to that Muppet o Neill well even if we beat Wales we are probably out and not allow him give out this BS let's win our next two matches rubbishQuote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
Is no one on this panel aware that 2nd place probably won't qualify ???
It's obvious that nobody at RTÉ had done their homework on the play-off qualification criteria either as the three pundits and Darragh were all talking about "getting into the play-offs if we beat Moldova and Wales" as well. These guys are getting paid, like... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
Group F could do us a favour. Scotland could beat Slovakia and then mess up away at Slovenia.
Bosnia need to beat Belgium. If they don't then that opens the door to Greece who have an away tie against Cyprus.
It's the hope that kills us.
Even if somebody did do us a favour we'd still need to beat Wales. Can you see that happening? They'll need to go for it as well.
Analysis: http://bit.ly/2gEm2qk
If Turkey beat Iceland we stand a very good chance as they'd finish on 11 points
Otherwise....
The most hopeful chance, assuming we beat wales is in group F
Ideal results:
Scotland beat Slovakia but lose to Slovenia.
Slovenia beat Scotland but lose to England
Slovakia can do what they want to Malta
Slovakia end on 12 points, Scotland end on 11 points and Slovenia end on 8 poiints
Bosnia and Greece is very remote and i'd expect Greece to sneak second
Montenegro have to hold off Denmark who are on 16 points as is
Sweden won't happen
Or Turkey and Iceland draw...and we beat Wales by 3 or more goals
GD in the 2nd place table is Iceland @ +3 and us at +1
They beat us on goals For at 9-6
Permutations are ridiculously complicated. Wouldn't it simply have been fairer to just use the whole group stage record regardless of the last placed team? All groups had 6 teams in advance of the groups commencing. Can't understand why a team moving from 6th to 5th on the last day in a group should determine who qualifies for the play-offs.
The rule was set before the last two groups were bumped up to six teams.
Worth noting Wales are now the worst runner-up - so they'll need to go for the win against us in Cardiff if all stays the same. I don't know if that's good or bad for us
The writing was on the wall after Georgia, it is hardly a surprise result.
Aye, it's odd. It made sense as a way of creating a sort of parity when you had eight groups with six teams and the ninth group had only five teams (as was the case in UEFA qualification for the 2010 and 2014 World Cups), but when all groups have six teams already, I don't know what point it's supposed to serve other than needlessly complicating matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cymro
Edit: Just seeing pineapple stu's post, which explains why the rule is still in place:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I appreciate that, but surely you'd have thought they could have scrapped it once all groups had six teams?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
If either of us are to make the play offs from our group we probably need to win both remaining games. This is perhaps easier for you given your easier game v Moldova.
Personally, I've not given up on us winning the group yet - Georgia and Austria are both capable of shocking the Serbians.
Had another look, didnt realise we were on 11 points.
So if The nether-region beat Sweden, we're in as they'd be on 11.
Turkey Beat Iceland we're good
Turkey draw with Iceleand we're good
Montes beat Denmark but lose to Poland
Belgium beat Bosnia then it doesnt matter what they or Greece do..
To be honest, if we beat Wales we'll qualify. Odds are in our favour.
Beating Wales should not be a daunting task
For all the bitching about RTÉ panel several have got it wrong on the playoff scenario. It's not as crazy as you think.
We currently sit with ten points for purposes of play off. This assumes Moldova finish bottom.
Best options seem to be Bosnia, Slovakia or Greece group.
If we win our next two games and Bosnia do not win both their games, then we will definitely not be worst second place. One of their games is home to Belgium.
I haven't seen the game yet as RTE are not allowing access to it yet , nor the late evening's highlights.
I don't know what O'Neill is supposed to with Wes, bring him to Knock for some extra healing? Wes has only played half the time for Norwich this season, when he plays they win, when he doesn't they lose, I'd assume there are obvious fitness restriction issues
By the sounds of it, it was an improved performance from Ireland missing the vital ingredient of a good result.
That was a brilliant move for Serbia's goal, those cxnts decide to come good in this campaign when Austria faded and Wales plodded throughout.
If Wales manage to beat Georgia (still a tall order) , then it's all set up to be a final game where both teams slim chances to proceed are sabotaged.
Gutted!
I blame the jersey. It's a crap pyjama looking jersey.
In seriousness though, I thought the Serbian keeper was excellent. When Wes went off we were hoofing it more and more.
We should've had a peno but we didn't get the rub of the green.
Serbia were smart and cynical. They stalled and dived and hey, if it was an Irish team doing the same in that situation we'd think they were great.
Meyler played well too.
Hard luck to the team. It looks bleak but at least they put their heart and soul into it.
Have yet another look, Ireland are on 10.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelmusic
Even if Wales beat Georgia, the final game v Wales - if it's not a dead rubber, it's looking very softish rubber.
The only thing I can reckon with Hoolahan is that he's like that player in Championship Manager who has 20 technique and 3 stamina.
I don't recall much of him in the second half. I guess O'Neill chose to withdraw him based on the knowledge that once he starts to fade, he's gone?
Don't see why he didn't get the last 15 minutes in Georgia though. Had a great game tonight.
Ooof. That smarts.
Thought we were really good in the first half, did all the things we didn't do against Georgia - pressed the Serbs, forced them into handy mistakes, overlapped, played some nice interlinking play. Only thing missing was the final ball (theme of the night).
We went to hell completely after they scored. The players rushed into panic stations and didn't leave there for 40 minutes (about 25 with an extra man). We lacked composure and clarity and our basic skills - touch, passing, crossing etc - completely deserted us.
But that's kind of what happens when you draw or win a bunch of games in the final minutes with pumped long balls - I can hardly blame the players for thinking it might work again, but bang, bluster and everything but the kitchen sink can only work so many times. We had an above average strike rate of pulling it out of the fire. It's just not sustainable.
Plan A, Plan B, Plan Cs - they're sustainable.
We've been riding our luck for a long time. Tonight wasn't the issue. It was the stand-offish performance against Wales, the crap against Austria at home, the absolute inanity of Tbilisi. We've been bad all year and the one night we turned up, we got beat. Bittersweet irony but, on the whole, we can hardly complain.
If I was to take a moment to defend O'Neill, I think some key players didn't perform well in the last two games for a variety of reasons - Long (match sharpness/confidence?), Walters (fitness?), Brady (did better tonight, but his crossing - dear lord, what's going on there).
I thought Wes looked tired when he came off and I was actually glad to see Hourihane, but the subs didn't work and it was dismaying that no one thought to try and calm some heads. The decision making of guys like McClean (who, otherwise, was at his McClean-iest) was dreadful in the last 10 minutes.
But, this is O'Neill's team, his players and it just hasn't been good enough. Choppy team selections, seat-of-the-pants tactical changes, odd substitutions. We're paying for the cumulative weight of several misjudgments. We don't deserve to be anywhere but where we are.
We needed to replace Hoolahan with a Fresh Hoolahan............
We really are lacking creative players and Hoolahan is 35 . Brady has a bit of creativity but needs help .
We Need Hoolahans....Hoolahans that can last 90 minutes.....Hoolahans that are 25 / 19 / 14
Send us Hoolahans.....Football Gods.......
Even though the last 30 minutes were a bit headless, there was a lot of good in the first 60 minutes. If we'd played like that in the previous few games, we wouldn't be in this situation now.
Meyler was excellent: tidy and very energetic, didn't do a lot wrong. He has been great when called on in big games (off the top of my head: last night, home v Germany, away v Austria). I'd love to know the real story about Wes H for club and country - does he really not have the legs, is he carrying an ankle injury or something all the time... why does he play every second game and why does he invariably get taken off so early? I know he is 35, but I think that a tired, strolling, non-pressing Hoolahan would still have been a better option to have on the field in the last 30 minutes last night. (A number 10 plays in a relatively small area of the pitch, so it's not like he has to hare around all the time if tired.) I really think Hoolahan operating at 50% is still a better option for us than what we see when he isn't on the pitch. (Especially against 10 men, but that's hindsight obviously as he was taken off before the foul on his replacement, Murphy.)
I don't want to be hard on the guy, but Christie got sucked into the middle for the goal last night and for the Georgian goal. In both cases: if he stays out to the right of the back four, the goal probably doesn't get scored. Coleman really has been a great loss - his defending, his crossing, his "getting up and down". He was the first name on the teamsheet before he got injured. And last night we were missing McCarthy, Hendrick, and McGeady (McGeady as a sub probably). All mitigating factors.
O'Neill really isn't greatest tactician. But at least he makes changes and rolls the dice by bringing on subs, and the players still seem to be playing for him. Trap was a poor motivator, not the greatest tactician, and sent out pretty much the same 11 in the same shape every time. (Exaggerating to make a point: Trap probably would have sent out the same team last night as v Georgia except for Cox on the wing for Walters.) So O'Neill is still a step up in my book.
It's not unthinkable that Wales will slip up in Georgia. And we will be facing them after they've had a round trip to Georgia. The permutations for second place do my head in.... if Wales don't slip up, we need to win twice to put us on 19 points, or 13 points and goal difference of at least +2 excluding Moldova (we're currently at +1 excluding Moldova, and a win v Wales would put us on +2 or better). If Bosnia lose to Belgium, they will probably end up on 11 points excluding Gibraltar and (again excluding Gibraltar) a GD around +2 (assuming they win by one v Estonia and lose by one v Belgium). If Greece overtake Bosnia with two reasonably likely wins, they will end up on 13 points and +4 or better. The Greece game that counts is v Cyprus away, so let's assume they won't win by much there (if they win at all).
If we win twice (big if), I would think we'll probably end up ahead of Bosnia if they are second, but probably not Greece if they come second.
If Wes had been hadn't been unfortunate enough to have most of his career co-incide with defensive, long-ball merchants/managers like Trapattoni and O'Neill, he might have got a hundred caps. Such a shame.
Don't think Wales will win in Georgia, so not unlikely we'll finish second in the group - but probably not enough to qualify for play-offs???
What is with Shane Long? When the ball is launched up to him it nearly always ends up a free kick - either to us or the opposition. Must be frustrating for the lad.
Interesting fact from BBC website:
- Martin O'Neill's side have scored just two goals at home in 2018 World Cup qualifying; only Faroe Islands (1) and Latvia, San Marino and Liechtenstein (all zero) have scored fewer amongst European nations.
That last 20 minutes were far more frustrating for me than the Georgia game. Two ball players in O'Dowda and Hourihane were brought on so I thought now we'll use the extra man by moving the ball around. Instead we played the long ball in to the box at every opportunity which didn't play to having the extra man on the field and then some of the moronic free kicks which we gave away when trying to build up a head of steam...madness. I know Arter had a poor game in Tblisi but should he not have replaced Hoolahan and Murphy for Walters, who was having another poor game? There was panic both on the bench and on the field. We needed 2 but it might have been one of those games where one followed another. Truth is that despite the so-called better performance in the first half, we barely created a chance worth talking about (the tip over is the only one which comes to mind) while they had clearer chances. We also started off so slowly in the second half and Wes pretty much didn't get a touch for the 15 minutes he was on. He certainly was able to bring our most potent attacking force, Christie, in to the game in the first half with some lovely balls but the end product was poor. I also noticed on a number of occasions Brady not showing for the ball.
So, assuming we beat Moldova, but without Robbie who's going to score, it's a must win in Wales and see how the other groups pan out. I think it would favour us if Wales just need a draw (remember France in Paris) - a team in such a situation never knows whether to stick or twist and then the nerves set in. If we're honest, we always suspected it would come down to the last game which it has (group permutations hopefully favouring us) - the memories of Serbia allegedly being "there for the taking" in the fist game are now long forgotten.
p.s. What's this about Murphy being fouled for a penalty? Didn't see it.