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I hope the GAA do decide to open Croke Park on a temporary basis. Its good for the GAA and good for ireland.
The foreign vote has to come in and they will probably vote yes seeing that they use soccer pitches abroad.
It should be opened providing the yes vote gets its vote in gear and have one motion that everyone can agree on.
Rugby would be brilliant in Croker, soccer might not be as great but still better than going abroad.
No double standards here. We have our lunatics in Limerick too. Limerick were mandated to vote in favour in 2001 and voted 3-1 against. Limerick are also reconsidering their original decision to vote against perhaps with a little pressure from a gentleman with an interest in Man Utd and Limerick hurling. Same gentleman offered to bankroll a whole stadium if they'd allow in Football and rugby "thanks but no thanks" was the reply. So yes we have so absolute nutjobs in Limerick too as well as reasonable GAA folk. - throwing 17 yearolds out of a car halfway between Limerick and Ennis for playing for Fairview, organising and succeeding in cancelling a planned school halfday when realising it would allow the kids to see an Irish game on tv. Limerick will vote in favour although a few delegates may have weak bladders when it comes to the vote at congress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peadar
I do think Frank and to a less extent Con Murphy are special though. We had members of the Cork County board trying to outdo each other last time in their opposition - Dan hoare on about not letting them into the carpark and John Motherway talking about the spirit of 1916 etc etc. One of our travelling party to both Paris and Tel Aviv is a county board officer and they would no longer be a county board officer if Frank Murphy ever found out where they were. However he wouldn't even be aware of the games.
Can you give a bit more detail on that please? Again, my recollection is only very vague.Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
I know it's totally naive, but I've always felt that Ireland's uber-rich (Smurfit, O'Reilly...) could have done something. The only things that I can see them ever having "given back" are vulgar, narcissistic monuments to their own success (K-Club, eponymous business schools...).
Maybe I'm wrong, esp about O'Reilly, though I doubt it in Smurfit's case.
There's a library in DCU named after O'Reilly's parents. One of the Man Utd pair, can't remember which but I think it's Magnier, has a scholarship and things like that in his old school. I think I remember someone offering to build a national stadium, only rumours, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I don't think this ever went public but it is from a very reliable source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
JP McManus was approached by the Limerick county board a few years back to make a donation towards the revamp of the Gaelic Grounds. He offered to bankroll the whole thing if they'd let Munster rugby and Limerick FC use it too and make it a proper sports stadium for Limerick.
His first love is hurling and I believe South Liberties facilities are second to none and he eventually did donate €5 million to the GG project anyway.
I think that when Campus Ireland was being discussed, J.P. McManus offered a "gift" of IR£50,000,000 (EUR€63,486,902)
That's probably what you're thinking of?
That must be it. That McManus story in Limerick is quite sad, really. When is this conference on again, this week?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peadar
That is a different offer. That was purely for a national stadium and a public offer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peadar
The other offer was private and could have been done within GAA rules if there was a will there. However when you are dealing with people who will openly go against a mandare from their own county what do you expect?
The oul GAA club where we sported and played is not unusual in that it finds itself spending more money in a week than it comes across in a fortnight. So fundraising is an ongoing fact of life and bank heists are a possibility.
The latest wheeze is a forum for elite athletes to be held next Saturday in DCU at the same time as the GAA Congress unfolds with all its scintillating speechifying just down the road in Croker.
The ironies of course are heavy enough even for a sports journalist to notice. Depending on which way you walk, St Vincent's is probably the nearest GAA ground to Croke Park. We get a nice view of the stadium and often when I'm sitting in the press box in that same stadium I look over and locate the club by means of its graceful (but very expensive to run) floodlights.
While the GAA debates whether to keep Croke Park for itself next Saturday, a golfer (Padraig Harrington), a rower (Sam Lynch), a sailor (Aaron O'Grady) and a runner (Catherina McKiernan) as well as Kieran McGeeney and Henry Shefflin will be giving their time to help a GAA club keep going.
Funny thing is that not one of those contacted to take part needed more than a phone call to persuade them. Even the sixth-best golfer in the world just said, "Yeah, no problem," with such serene grace that we kept waiting for him to call back to say he'd made a dreadful mistake.
Luminaries from rugby and soccer were invited too but next Saturday is a busy day in the professional games and they declined regretfully. Nobody threw Rule 42 into the discussion. Nobody accused us of having necks harder than Ruby Walsh's backside. All did what they could. It is sport after all.
While the blazered chieftains gather in Croker next Saturday to discuss the future uses of their big field, St Vincent's of Marino won't be the only GAA club fundraising. Up and down the country clubs will be peddling lottos and bingos and quiz nights and céilí nights and golf classics and race nights and fumbling in the greasy till for just about anything that can be used to buy a few sliotars and footballs.
A few years ago in Vincent's we marked the juvenile pitch out in squares and inserted a huge brown cow who waddled around the grid for the afternoon while wagers were made on where Daisy would dump. Many people said the cow's lack of pace, poor positional sense and failure to deliver brought them back to the days when I played full forward for the junior Bs.
Anyway, night fell before the stage-struck animal delivered anything hot and steamy. We gave thanks, decommissioned Daisy and thought of Archbishop Croke and wondered if this counted as an occasion of sin.
The constipated cow was Irish and so was the grass she digested. We could not then be accused of ". . . daily importing from England not only her manufactured goods, which we cannot help doing, since she practically strangled our own manufacturing appliances, but together with her fashions, her accents, her vicious literature, her music, her dances, and her manifold mannerisms, her games also and her pastimes, to the utter discredit of our own grand national sports, and to the sore humiliation, as I believe, of every genuine son of the old land."
Phew! It was s**t on our field but it wasn't soccer (sure, sure, as a Leeds fan I sometimes find it hard to know the difference, but that's a lament for another day.) We all owe a lot to Archbishop Croke and his rousing letter exhorting the populace to return to such racy pursuits as "leaping in various ways", "top pegging" and "top in the hop" (sorry, Bish, I'm just not that sort of gal), but that charter belonged to a different, more tremulous time. As did the Ban, which entered the GAA's rule book a century ago this year. As did Michael Collins, who was firm in his wish to protect the Gael from the evils of soccer and believed it was the intention of the Crown to destroy Irish culture. "The peaceful penetration of Ireland," as the big fella called it.
Left to our own devices we've done a grand wrecking-ball job on Irish culture ourselves but football and hurling survive and prosper and it's time to place a little confidence in their innate durability. The end of the Ban didn't consume the games.
Television didn't kill them. Sponsorship and advertising didn't wither them. Ireland playing in three soccer World Cups didn't make them go away. Renting the field out to Neil Diamond didn't smite them.
Irish people watching rugby or soccer in Croke Park won't damage the games either. (And of course originality not being any concern of this column, it's worth saying that if they don't watch those games in Croke Park the cunning divils will watch them someplace else anyway.) What it might do is provide some funds for the games, for the coaching of the games, for the evangelisation. Two-thirds of any rental windfall should be put aside just for the employment of hurling coaches. The other third for football coaches. Chuck some money at camogie and women's football too. The potential for growth there is only starting to be tapped.
What happens in Croke Park next Saturday is about the GAA's confidence in its own standing within the culture. It can continue to be an organisation ever tolerant of the vices of itself and the virtues of others or it can change with the confidence that Croke and Cusack and the boys would have wished for it 100 years on.
A century past from the institution of the Ban do we believe we have nurtured an oak or an orchid? The stadium in which the vote will take place is a brick-and-mortar symbol of a certain confidence. Using that stadium for the fullest benefit of the broad GAA community would be a flesh-and-blood sign of deep confidence from the blazers.
By now all the other arguments are redundant. The patriotism angle is a bust. The "public purse contribution" business is a canard. Frank Brazil Dineen bought Jones' Road for the GAA a century ago for £3,250 and since that bold move those few acres have given more to the Irish people than the Irish people have given to Croke Park.
The threat to open up all GAA grounds isn't a starter. I don't know of a club ground which isn't overused already.
There's no value either in sifting through the entrails of the various unfortunate events which reduce the FAI and the IRFU (rugby's blazers are, incidentally, almost blameless in the husbandry of their resources) to scouring the For Rent ads.
We're all in the state we are in for better or worse and if the past matters so much that it shackles and hobbles the GAA, well than the GAA has failed. In the 100 years since the Ban was formally slipped into the rule book as an expression of what was perhaps a necessary protectionist mentality, the GAA will have managed to erase the Ban only from the rule book not from its mind.
The association can cower behind the door like an oul wan peering out with the latch chain on. Or the stadium can be placed on the world map. The games and the plain people who play them and love them are owed the latter. It's time for the GAA to stand up and refuse to cut its noses off to spite its face.
It's so simple. Abolish Rule 42 and if the new Lansdowne Road is ever built (this column isn't alone in doubting he'll live to see it) international rugby and soccer will slip back across the river, leaving the GAA wealthier and with a central, undisputed and unbegrudged place at the centre of Irish life.
Or the GAA can slip back a century or so. The association can point out that it's no business of the GAA if soccer and rugby fans must pass near a locked Croke Park on their way to the North Wall to catch the boat to see national teams play in Blighty. The GAA can keep pleading that what other associations do is no business of any true Gael. There's a certain stubborn logic in that stance. The same logic which presents us with a view of a clump of ostrich arse when the bird buries its head in the sand.
Next Saturday can be a confident step forward or a shameful shuffle backward.It can be glasnost or it can be ghastly. What happens in Croke Park will affect how a lot of people feel about the GAA for years to come. The GAA has the chance to confound its critics, to step up and sing. More than that it has the opportunity to remove forever the need for columnists to blatantly plug club fundraisers right at the end of their column.
Funny and Fact - Stand up and take a bow that man.
Latest Voting:
Antrim-NO
Louth, Kilkenny, Leitrim,-YES
Crunch time tonight as Cork and Limerick county boards vote.
Limerick are having a secret ballot, for a change, which might allow people to vote without feeling peer pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn_Run
Don't you mean, "how many yes votes will result in Croke Park opening up, being discussed?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy
One step at a time TP. ;)
As far as I can see - all of the votes that are going on at the moment will mean sweet FA if the GAA decide to have a secret ballot at the GAA Congress next saturday. In secret, representatives will be able to vote as they wish and in effect ignore the mandate. This is surely not democracy
Wouldn't get too carried away with all the yes votes. Apparently many delegates likely to vote no, despite their county boards decisions. Good old GAA style democracy...
That's pretty much been suggested towards the end of this article too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn_Run
From the BBC article above, "The overall amount of votes at Congress will be 335 which will leave 224 as the figure needed to endorse change given the two-thirds requirement."Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy
Limerick met last night and voted YES
Cork didnt meet last night but have decided to vote NO. Dont know how they came to that decision.
Although I am 110% for the opening of Croker, having listened to the Cork Representative on the news yesterday he made some valid points, one in particular I have some sympathy with. He says that Cork have received nothing from the GAA as to how the opening of Croke Park will benefit clubs at county level. No indication has been given as to how/if the funds made from opening up will be dispersed.
A valid point but still its only an excuse for their narrowmindedness IMO.
Someone out there mite be better on GAA politics than me:
Suppose the vote goes through, does this mean Croke Park will definitely be opened or is the vote just to give the power to Central Council to open it?
And will it remain shut until Lansdown shuts in 2006 or could it be available for the autumn?
As far as I know it will mean that it will be allowed (under the GAA rules) to be opened up. Whether it is or not will be up to the FAI or IRFU actually asking to use it, and then agreeing terms with the GAA. This may or may not happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Vito
And the Welsh Rugby Union presumably provided 500 page dossiers to all clubs on the benefits of playing the FA Cup final there when the rugby season is over. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn_Run
My favourite bit of the RTE Voxpop was the guy from St. Vincents in Cork - " We'd be against it. Just up the road here we had guys murdered by the Black and Tans. It was a horrible death too. We commemorate it every Easter nothing political mind. As I said we are a staunch Republican club so we'd be against it" tyou couldn't make this stuff up could you?
Cork is one man one vote. Frank Murphy is the man and he has the vote. No surpirses there.
There are 7 motions being put forward; but the one that almost certainly will be voted on is the one that would allow Croke Park to be opened up to other sports during the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road.
I think the actual decision to do so would be made by Central Council (not 100% sure on that), but it is highly unlikely they would not do so if Congress voted 2:1 in favour.
I disagree as to its validity and I think its a red herring from this guy. Its too early to say how the money would dispersed as this would ne a matter for the board of management when/if they become enpowered to do do.
I think this guy is opposed in any scenario and is plucking at straws. He sounded like a child wanting to be led by the hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn_Run
Don't you guys know that these people are more Irish that you lot
Nope - the vote - if passed - will only allow the opening of croke park to be discussed officially.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Vito
Absolutely. I can't believe Ronan O'Gara has never apologised for the Black and Tans in 1922. And it is well known that Roy Keane is a direct descendant of Oliver Cromwell. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by drummerboy
In fairness though with Mayo giving a free vote only Monaghan and Cork in the Republic are against opening up Croke Park.
true but it is very unlikely that Central Council would refuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn_Run
Taken from an article in the Irish Examiner today.
Jim O’Sullivan writes
Full story here...Quote:
The staging of international soccer and rugby games in Croke Park could necessitate the expenditure of €20m by the GAA.
Well thank goodness ourselves and the Corkmen are standing alongside our Northern Brethern :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by gspain
Seriously though, does that mean that if all the county delgates vote they way they are supposed to then the 2/3rds will almost certainly be achieved?
Thats an interesting article Peadar, the main concerns here are segregation of fans and floodlighting. Floodlighting, IMO, could be incorporated into any deal signed between FAI, GAA and IRFU. Segregation is a different story. Obviously there are UEFA regulations as to how opposing fans should be segregated. I doubt that temporary measures are acceptable here. How does it currently work in Lansdown? I'm a South Bucket die hard - not too au fait on what happens on the North end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peadar
I knew knocking the Nally was going to come back to haunt us! :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by monutdfc
Not nessesarily. Some counties are more powerful than others. 1 vote for every 10 clubs in your county.
Hertfordshire has voted against it last night because of the fear of hooligans.
Currently segregation is done on the North Terrace by a line of stewards. Same thing in Israel recently. I went into the home end to get the free T shirt and came back - no problems. As for stade de France.........Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn_Run
Floodlights are not needed. Games can be played during the day. Obviously if the F.A.I. or IRFU wanted floodlights they'd have to pay for them.
The pathetic attempts at the "No" camp to hide their bigotry behind stupid reasons laughable.
THis is probably very naieve but given that individual delegates can vote against getting rid of Rule 42 even if they were mandated to vote for the motion what are the chances of them voting for it where the county has madated a vote against.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
Floodlights are required for afternoon or later games in the winter.
What might look to you and I from the terrace, doesn't show up well on TV without sufficient lighting.
I know that the eL clubs have to comply with the minimum average lux level specified in the relevant UEFA club competitions regulations.
It's not a problem though because the stadium structure can accommodate lighting and the cost would, of course, be met by the individual sporting body.
I've said this many times but Cork people have a lot more effection for Cork than they do for Ireland. That isn't the case in most Leinster/other counties and it does effect the voting.
Sonia O'Sullivan, Roy Keane and Denis Irwin are Corkmen/women. Damien Duff, Robbie Keane and Jonny Giles are Irishmen.
It's quite easy for Dublin people to say they're "Irish first" because, essentially, the country revolves around the seat of government, the heads of sporting bodies, the national broadcaster and so on and so forth, which all happen to be in Dublin.Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
By actively promoting issues in the name of "Ireland", you're effectively further empowering and enhancing Dublin.
There is an Ireland outside of Dublin.
An Ireland which fights hard for economic survival.
The €15m or so generated from each major sporting event, is barely seen anywhere beyond the pail.
Yes, but on the basis of the counties that have declared their intention to support the motion, is there enough delegates for the 2/3rds?Quote:
Originally Posted by blobbyblob
Did Cork not meet lastnight?
They had a whole piece on the news lastnight, showing people walking into Pairc ui Chaoimh.
Or did they just not discuss it?
Simply not true. Yes UEFA have all sorts of regulations and rightly so re the lux but you have enough daylight hours to play any home game at any time of the year without lights. OK it can mean a 1pm kickoff on a wednesday in November aka England 1990 in Lansdowne but you don't need floodlights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peadar
Now Croek Park is wored for lights and the GAA may decide to get the F.A.I. and/or government to pay for them or a chunk of them and there is a business decision to be made then as Sky and advertisers would much prefer a kickoff time outside normal working hours.
Remember Estonia were forced into a daytime kickoff v Scotland when their lights didn't pass the test and the mess that followed.
Franco Murphy decided not to have a vote and just mandated their delegates to vote against.Quote:
Originally Posted by noby
Actually a positive sign as he must at least have been concerned enough that it might have failed.