No Football or Rugby at Croke Park

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Like I said, I was open to correction and this is a fair point. I think this is a local thing as much as anything else rather than an institutional one. If the GAA is such a fan of national liberation - which I have a feeling is window dressing more than anything else - then why doesn't my local GAA club - Dublin 6W - have any rallies or anything? Sinn Fein topped the poll in Dublin South West, they wouldn't be short on supporters. I think they don't because the area isn't Tyrone which has been a violent county for centuries. If Ireland was perfect, the GAA would be an outstanding organisation and lead the way in shunning the Shinners. Ireland's not perfect and the GAA is nothing without its grassroots. If HQ on Jones' Road tells Crossmaglen to start being nice to British soldiers and to publicly come out against the IRA, I don't think it would go down well. I'm not an apologist for the actions of the IRA or the GAA but I think what you're talking about is a local thing, both GAA and IRA, and not an institutional one.

Did the GAA not remove the ban on security forces playing relatively recently? It's not exactly the big bang but it's something.

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I will accept that the GAA got rid of Rule 21 and fair play there.

I should also point out in fairness that they subsequently stopped pro IRA motions going to Congress in the early 80's - 82 I think. I also appreciate the GAA in NI is very different to that down here however it is one organisation and the nutters in cork or Waterford would outdo anything from Tyrone or Armagh. However I think an opportunity was missed to express support for a peaceful "re-integration of the national territory" or whatever the GAA constitution calls it.

I also have no doubt that a GAA club in Dublin 6W or Laois or Kerry is concerned with the price of jerseys or trying to get a team out on a sunday rather than the "Struggle for national liberation"

However it is a minority of bigots that give the association a bad name and they obviously have huge power.

Interestingly Paddy Power have the odds of Croke Park staying closed at 4/6. 11/10 to open up.

http://www.paddypower.com/betaction=..._id=58&id=3511

[QUOTE=gspain]I will accept that the GAA got rid of Rule 21 and fair play there.

I should also point out in fairness that they subsequently stopped pro IRA motions going to Congress in the early 80's - 82 I think. I also appreciate the GAA in NI is very different to that down here however it is one organisation and the nutters in cork or Waterford would outdo anything from Tyrone or Armagh. However I think an opportunity was missed to express support for a peaceful "re-integration of the national territory" or whatever the GAA constitution calls it.

I also have no doubt that a GAA club in Dublin 6W or Laois or Kerry is concerned with the price of jerseys or trying to get a team out on a sunday rather than the "Struggle for national liberation"

However it is a minority of bigots that give the association a bad name and they obviously have huge power.[QUOTE]

I was in the Ardoyne once and came across a mural in a republican area of people playing GAA. The mural said something like "this is our culture." The GAA is the probably the biggest organisation in Ireland and if people in Ardoyne choose to use the GAA as a symbol of defiance/pride/hatred, there isn't much we can do about it, such is the make up of Ireland. I wouldn't say that the GAA is full of bigots but rather that it doesn't seem to want to interfere with the grassroots level. I find the examples that you use fairly twisted and can see why you don't like them but I don't think it's bigotry at an institutional level and I don't think they have huge power either at a national level.

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Originally Posted by gspain

The IRA;s stated aim is to overthrow the government of this state and establish a 32 county All Ireland ruled by them. I never stated it was the GAA's maim but in supporting the struggle for national liberation they are supporting the IRA.Myers quoted the motion and he hardly got it wrong. It was not refuted.

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First you said: 'Are the following acceptable or examples of bigotry. 1) Official policy to "Support the struggle for national liberation" ' Well is closing down your sporting fixtures not 'in defence of the Union' also acceptable or bigotry? I've yet to see NIRFC or other Ulster clubs refute this. Maybe they have. Maybe they haven't.

Then you said: 'The "struggle for national liberation" was clearly meant to refer to the IRA. Yes I have a big problem with that. That struggle also aims to overthrow this state.' This implies that the GAA were supporting the overthrow of the state. I don't support the IRA nor its post GFA activities of running sectors of the O6C like parts of Mogadishu where the will of local warlords decide whether it's a kneecapping or having your neck throat and head stamped on, as with Robert McCartney, but I do support the 'struggle for national liberation' if that means the all-Ireland state denied in 1918. Far from getting it right, Myers' article - as with so much of his sh*te, be it the provos, immigration or 'B*stards' - does not detail in what respect this was argued. Indeed, he accepts that those three important letters were never even mentioned in the debate, but nudge nudge, wink wink, we all know what was argued.

'It's true that no mention of the IRA was made in this motion; nor was it necessary. The "struggle for national liberation" had then and has now only one meaning - and that was the terrorist campaign by the IRA.'

Well actually, some of us like our evidence a little bit more substantial than that. And indeed most of us are not going to sell out our country because parts of its nationalism has been hijacked by violence over the past 30 years - violence for which Myers and others like Ruth Dudley Edwards are quick to point to its present, disgusting state rather than what actually gave birth to it all. After all the remaining remnants of the IRA were told in 1961 to destroy their guns: The war was unequivically over and they were defeated as much by apathy as by the governments of Britain and Ireland.

And so the questions I'd like to ask is: Was it that the GAA becomes unconditionally the athletic wing of the Provos? Does it support the violent struggle for national liberation without Dublin? Does it support the violent struggle for national liberation according to Dublin? Does it support - a la Gandhi - the non-violent struggle for national liberation? Is it just a sop to people like Crossmaglen Rangers and the Ulster Board whose grounds (Casement Park) were 'billeted' by what to me, let alone them, is an army of occupation. (BTW: How many IRA rallies have there been at CR's grounds in the past three decades?). If anything, the GAA's statement opened the door for the UDA/UVF/'Crown Forces' to legitimise the assasination of the association's members in NI, something else which escapes Myers own fantastic ANALysis.

To get right back to the origional point again......

The FAI seem to be gettin an awful lot of well deserved critism over the whole stadium issue but the IRFU don't seem to be gettin any of the blame..... Whats the story there?
I think everyone just loves to hate the FAI cause they seem to mess everything up.... And the IRFU are usually quite composed... but still there is the two of them in it

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Originally Posted by Eire06

To get right back to the origional point again......

The FAI seem to be gettin an awful lot of well deserved critism over the whole stadium issue but the IRFU don't seem to be gettin any of the blame..... Whats the story there?
I think everyone just loves to hate the FAI cause they seem to mess everything up.... And the IRFU are usually quite composed... but still there is the two of them in it

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Eh, I think you'll find that the IRFU have their own stadium, albeit a bit of a ramshackle one by today's standards (built before professionalism which helps with the cashflow).

Anyone any idea how much the FAI grossed from Euro 88, Italia 90, USA 94 and Japan-Korea 00? There is this impression around that they should have built a stadium with this money. Now, I'm no fan of the FAI and they seem to be experts in throwing money away, but would the money from those tournaments plus qualifiers have gone anywhere near to building a stadium? I doubt it, but I'd love to see the actual figures.

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Originally Posted by monutdfc

Eh, I think you'll find that the IRFU have their own stadium, albeit a bit of a ramshackle one by today's standards (built before professionalism which helps with the cashflow).
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I know they have a stadium but its hardly worth talkin about compared to other teams of their level.. They are going to be without a home too while its being done up...

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Originally Posted by monutdfc

Anyone any idea how much the FAI grossed from Euro 88, Italia 90, USA 94 and Japan-Korea 00? There is this impression around that they should have built a stadium with this money. Now, I'm no fan of the FAI and they seem to be experts in throwing money away, but would the money from those tournaments plus qualifiers have gone anywhere near to building a stadium? I doubt it, but I'd love to see the actual figures.

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I think the money from one or other of the finals tournaments was put at 3 million which wouldn't go too far towards a new stadium.

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Originally Posted by monutdfc

...Anyone any idea how much the FAI grossed from Euro 88, Italia 90, USA 94 and Japan-Korea 00? There is this impression around that they should have built a stadium with this money. Now, I'm no fan of the FAI and they seem to be experts in throwing money away, but would the money from those tournaments plus qualifiers have gone anywhere near to building a stadium? I doubt it, but I'd love to see the actual figures.

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They would have been throwing away the money if they spent it on a stadium. As I stated earlier, what other FAs in Europe have their own stadium? They either use clubs' grounds or have the government build the stadiums for them. In the rest of the world where the game is not the most popular - eg: the US - other sports accomodate them.

Just to confirm I've spoken with my uncle who attended most home and away rugby games thorughout the 70's and 80's. GSTQ was never played for an Ireland team away even by mistake. It was most likely a royal visitor to Cardiff.

Note ist is still policy to play GSTQ and fly the UJ for home games in NI.

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Originally Posted by lopez

They would have been throwing away the money if they spent it on a stadium. As I stated earlier, what other FAs in Europe have their own stadium? They either use clubs' grounds or have the government build the stadiums for them. In the rest of the world where the game is not the most popular - eg: the US - other sports accomodate them.

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Very true, I can't think of any FA that owns their own completely. When I say on this thread that the FAI has itself to blame for not having its own stadium, I mean that it hasn't come up with one viable, smart and workable idea, there have been no organised campaigns, no publicity, no leaflets, no articulate spokesperson to call on the Government to do something. Instead of moving forward, it's remained static and is in no better position than it was FIFTEEN YEARS AGO when we went to Italy. While people were in boardrooms coming up with the Stade de France and the Millenium Stadium, Milo Corcoran and Brendan Menton were arranging our next friendly tour of the USA or Eastern Europe.

While the IRFU were coming up with a 10 year business plan in order to grow rugby around the country, to make the move to professionalism, to bring the Irish players home from Britain, to develop sponsorship, etc, people were taking personal loans from the FAI's coffers and they were flogging rights to Sky Sports. This is why the FAI and those who support Irish soccer are left in this situation. It's not the Government, it's not the GAA, it's not rule 42. Croke Park is only the immediate issue. It stems from the above.

There hasn't been one iota of vision in the FAI since I've been following international football that hasn't been immediately subsumed into the organisation's base level incompetence.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Very true, I can't think of any FA that owns their own completely. When I say on this thread that the FAI has itself to blame for not having its own stadium, I mean that it hasn't come up with one viable, smart and workable idea, there have been no organised campaigns, no publicity, no leaflets, no articulate spokesperson to call on the Government to do something. Instead of moving forward, it's remained static and is in no better position than it was FIFTEEN YEARS AGO when we went to Italy. While people were in boardrooms coming up with the Stade de France and the Millenium Stadium, Milo Corcoran and Brendan Menton were arranging our next friendly tour of the USA or Eastern Europe.

While the IRFU were coming up with a 10 year business plan in order to grow rugby around the country, to make the move to professionalism, to bring the Irish players home from Britain, to develop sponsorship, etc, people were taking personal loans from the FAI's coffers and they were flogging rights to Sky Sports. This is why the FAI and those who support Irish soccer are left in this situation. It's not the Government, it's not the GAA, it's not rule 42. Croke Park is only the immediate issue. It stems from the above.

There hasn't been one iota of vision in the FAI since I've been following international football that hasn't been immediately subsumed into the organisation's base level incompetence.

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I know I got slaughtered for this before but i'll say it again. the F.A.I. did have plans for a stadium - Eircom Park and it was plans without any government funding. they made the right deciison to drop it in favour of Abbottstown but hadn't banked on the government changing its mind. there were numerous petitions etc re a national stadium. i remember one which included a Casino in Phoenix Park.

There was never apot of gold from the major championships and no national association generrates the kind of funding required for amajor stadium without state help. Rememebr stadia are not good business ventures. From a business perspective they don't make sense.

Now the F.A.I. is far from perfect but consider a few more facts outside of the stadium issue.

We have a country with a population of 3.7 million and domestic league that is ranked in the bottom 20% in europe.

1) Our national team is currently ranked 12th in the world

2) We've qualified for 3 of the last 4 world cups

3) Football is by far the largest participant sport in the country and has been for the last 19 years Indeed even in Kerry which is a GAA heartland there are more people playing Association Football than Gaelic Football.

4) We've had huge success at underage and a steady stream of talent coming through.

5) Organised coached teams playing regular football in regular seasons week in week out and both underage and adult levels across the country.

6) Sports TV viewing figures for RTE indicate that in 14 of the past 15 years the biggest audiences have been football matches. In many of those years Internationals would have twice the viewing figures of the gaelic All Ireland (biggest GAA game)

The weaknesses as i see them are

1) Our domestic league is miles behind the GAA and provincial rugby fro ma marketing and funding point of view.

2) As a spectator sport outside of the national team again we are miles behind the GAA (I don't count a barstool and Sky Sports as being a spectator)

3) Facilities - getting better right around the country but by and large not up to the level of the GAA clubs.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

There was any number of things that could have happened apart from the economy taking a downturn, FF could've been dumped out at the subsequent election and a Rainbow Coalition binned the project - they were hostile to the whole concept anyway.

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and nothig to do with Mary and her 8 seats telling Bertie with his ~80 who wears the trousers in government. :D

Sad because I still believe it was the right decision to build it in the first place if only they hadn't wasted so much money on feasibility stidues and just built the thing.

[QUOTE=gspain]I know I got slaughtered for this before but i'll say it again. the F.A.I. did have plans for a stadium - Eircom Park and it was plans without any government funding. they made the right deciison to drop it in favour of Abbottstown but hadn't banked on the government changing its mind. there were numerous petitions etc re a national stadium. i remember one which included a Casino in Phoenix Park.

There was never apot of gold from the major championships and no national association generrates the kind of funding required for amajor stadium without state help. Rememebr stadia are not good business ventures. From a business perspective they don't make sense.[QUOTE=gspain]

I was going to mention Eircom Park but didn't think that anyone would treat that as a measure of the FAI's ambition. They made a cute little model stadium and talked about it for a while and then cried wolf when Abbotstown was binned.

Gspain, I'm not saying it's a piece of p!ss to build a stadium but the FAI have never put together any professional lobbying campaign to really get it underway, never put forward a decent, workable concrete proposal.

Why didn't they come to the Government after Euro 88? After Italia 90? Any time during the 1990s? All those years, all that money wasted. That's why I struggle to understand why fans choose to throw their abuse at the GAA for the possible lack of a stadium.

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Originally Posted by Eire06

Ya but thats not in Croke park...

I know a lot of people that would take great offence in God save the queen being played there and theyre reason is that they are still bitter about Bloody Sunday and it would be disrespectful the memory of the people who were killed by the black and tans

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That has nothing to do with it. GSTQ was played at Croke Park during the special Olympics.

However, if you cast your mind back, the FAI refused to play GSTQ at Lansdowne Road when England played Ireland in the Euro 92 Qualifier. Meanwhile the English did play Amhran na Bhfiann at Wembley in the return fixture. But of course such facts will rarely stop the soccer fraternity in this country from any opportunity at calling the GAA backwoodsmen rednecks living in the past. That is the only bigotry on display here.

Another point - Croke Park is already set up so that floodlights can be added at any time. Were they not installed for the Special Olympics.

The final myth is that taxpayers paid for Croke Park. What funds that were given came from the National Lottery which is not a forced taxation but rather something set up so that the proceeds go to Sport. All sports in this country have benifed from Lottery money - a tonne was ploughed into Dalymount Park and that fiasco of a stadium Shamrock Rovers are trying to build in Tallagh. At least the funds that did go to Croke Park were put to good use.

As well as that, the government has received more money back from the GAA, in returns to the exchequor than they have given. The funds given to Croker have provided a nice Return on Investment for the Government. It's what you call business. If you invest money in something and gain, well that's your good fortune. If you throw money at something useless (choose which ever failed FAI venture of your choice) then you lose.

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Originally Posted by Sunnyside Up

That has nothing to do with it. GSTQ was played at Croke Park during the special Olympics.

However, if you cast your mind back, the FAI refused to play GSTQ at Lansdowne Road when England played Ireland in the Euro 92 Qualifier. Meanwhile the English did play Amhran na Bhfiann at Wembley in the return fixture. But of course such facts will rarely stop the soccer fraternity in this country from any opportunity at calling the GAA backwoodsmen rednecks living in the past. That is the only bigotry on display here.

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Ok firstly if you read the WHOLE thread you will see in an earlier post I actually asked was it played at the Special Olymics...

And It must be a factor because people are using it as there arguement against opening Croker. (there was a whole debate on the last word about it) So yes it has something to do with it.. This is my first post which you seemed to skipped conviently over. I asked the question too see had this arguement any legs to stand on ( had it been played there before)

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Originally Posted by Eire06

Apparantly one of the biggest problems for people against opening Croker is that the don't want God save the Queen played there and the thought of a union Jack flying over croker is just wrong....

But would it not have been there at the special Olympics, was the anthem played there, if an english participant won it prob was... Anyone know??

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At another point if you read the post you will see it is not my opinion that I am posting 'Apparantly one of the biggest problems for people' kinda gives that away don't you think.. I have not come to a decision ( Not that it matters) yet on the matter, i don't like to jump to conclusions when I don't know all the facts :mad:

England playing Amhran na Bhfiann and Ireland playing GSTQ are two different things Ireland never tried to take over England now did we :mad:

At that I fully support the GAA in whatever decision they choose I will think it is a shame if we have to go abroad to play home matches.. and have never refered to them as 'backwoodsmen rednecks ' neither would I I'm extremly proud of what they have achieved and what they have done for this country

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Originally Posted by Sunnyside Up

That has nothing to do with it. GSTQ was played at Croke Park during the special Olympics.

However, if you cast your mind back, the FAI refused to play GSTQ at Lansdowne Road when England played Ireland in the Euro 92 Qualifier. Meanwhile the English did play Amhran na Bhfiann at Wembley in the return fixture. But of course such facts will rarely stop the soccer fraternity in this country from any opportunity at calling the GAA backwoodsmen rednecks living in the past. That is the only bigotry on display here.

Another point - Croke Park is already set up so that floodlights can be added at any time. Were they not installed for the Special Olympics.

The final myth is that taxpayers paid for Croke Park. What funds that were given came from the National Lottery which is not a forced taxation but rather something set up so that the proceeds go to Sport. All sports in this country have benifed from Lottery money - a tonne was ploughed into Dalymount Park and that fiasco of a stadium Shamrock Rovers are trying to build in Tallagh. At least the funds that did go to Croke Park were put to good use.

As well as that, the government has received more money back from the GAA, in returns to the exchequor than they have given. The funds given to Croker have provided a nice Return on Investment for the Government. It's what you call business. If you invest money in something and gain, well that's your good fortune. If you throw money at something useless (choose which ever failed FAI venture of your choice) then you lose.

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GSTQ was not played in 1990 due to a mixup between the 2 FAs. There was a deal with the IFA not to play either national anthem before the RoI v NI games. GSTQ was played before the friendly match at Lansdowne in 1995 and unfortunately booed by a small section of the crowd. This remains the only time I can remember where Irish fans have not respected an opponents anthem. I was at the game in 78 too but was only a kid and can't remember if GSTQ was played but I assume it was.

GSTQ is played at England rugby Internationals and respected.

If you think not playing an anthem before a game even comes close to the bigotry of the gAA you must be sick.

Public money paid for half of Croke Park at least. Yes most of it is lottery funding but that is still public money and a tax and those who weren't very good at maths in school. The grants given to Dalymount and Tallaght are a pittance in comparison. Remember the GAA have also got susbtantial grants in relation to other developments. The grants for Lansdowne do equate to those for Croke Park however the government is also taking a stake for the taxpayer in the stadium.

Croke Park should be opened up as a certain amount of taxpayers money went into the redevelopment and a point to remember-not all taxpayers are G.A.A. supporters. It seems to be inappropiate that the G.A.A. allows American Football to be played in Croke Park and Compromise Rules Football, which is technically NOT an Irish game. The G.A.A promotes Greyhound Racing on the advertising hoardings and Greyhound Racing is a British sport. Remember Rule 27 that prohibited members from playing "foreign games"? That rule was enforced with brutal force at schools years ago. The "old stock" would surely have memories of getting beaten for playing soccer or expelled from school. Children did not play Gaelic games out of the love for them-they were forced into it by sheer brutality. Even today, there are children in rural parts of the West of Ireland that sneak out of their homes to play soccer as local G.A.A. clubs puts pressure on the kids to play Gaelic football. The narrow minded bigots that seem to call the shots are very hypocritical on the rule issue. Get rid of the bigots, open up Croke Park and let us all say that sport should be freely enjoyed by our children rather than certain sports being imposed on them a la Rule 27. :ball:

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Originally Posted by Thunderblaster

Croke Park should be opened up as a certain amount of taxpayers money went into the redevelopment and a point to remember-not all taxpayers are G.A.A. supporters. It seems to be inappropiate that the G.A.A. allows American Football to be played in Croke Park and Compromise Rules Football, which is technically NOT an Irish game. The G.A.A promotes Greyhound Racing on the advertising hoardings and Greyhound Racing is a British sport. Remember Rule 27 that prohibited members from playing "foreign games"? That rule was enforced with brutal force at schools years ago. The "old stock" would surely have memories of getting beaten for playing soccer or expelled from school. Children did not play Gaelic games out of the love for them-they were forced into it by sheer brutality. Even today, there are children in rural parts of the West of Ireland that sneak out of their homes to play soccer as local G.A.A. clubs puts pressure on the kids to play Gaelic football. The narrow minded bigots that seem to call the shots are very hypocritical on the rule issue. Get rid of the bigots, open up Croke Park and let us all say that sport should be freely enjoyed by our children rather than certain sports being imposed on them a la Rule 27. :ball:

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Can we get past this notion that those opposed to soccer in Croker are bigots? "The narrow minded bigots that seem to call the shots": Rule 42 is going to Congress with different motions having been put forward by 11 counties. Sean Kelly, the head of the GAA, is clearly in favour of soccer in Croker, does he not call at least some of the shots?

For the millionth time, calling the GAA bigots will get soccer fans nowhere. There are undoubtedly rednecks in the GAA as there are soccer rednecks and rugby rednecks in the FAI and IRFU, respectively. But to assume that soccer in Croker is simply being held up by bigots is just missing the GAA's point. 40-50% of GAA members are against opening the stadium up, are they all bigots?

Hurling site debates this issueHurlers
More posts on the above site if you search...

Hopefully those who can't stand the GAA & it's sports will not attend Croker soccer matches!

Leaving more tickets for real fans, even those who follow Hurling & a certain London soccer club!

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Originally Posted by gspain

3) I think there is no doubt who Peter Canavan supports however the problem is not allowing Peter Canavan to play gaelic but in allowing him to play politics with the Sam Maguire Cup and to appear on SF election material in GAA kit displaying the GAA logo without comment or censure.

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First of all, Peter Canavan did not have his GAA kit on. As an amateur player he can surely support whatever party he wants.

Secondly, the FAI have had no problem taking money from Sinn Fein and not so long ago have run an ad in an official ROI soccer program.

Thirdly, Irish soccer grounds have been used for Sinn Fein fundraisers.

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Originally Posted by gspain

GSTQ was not played in 1990 due to a mixup between the 2 FAs. There was a deal with the IFA not to play either national anthem before the RoI v NI games. GSTQ was played before the friendly match at Lansdowne in 1995 and unfortunately booed by a small section of the crowd. This remains the only time I can remember where Irish fans have not respected an opponents anthem. I was at the game in 78 too but was only a kid and can't remember if GSTQ was played but I assume it was.

GSTQ is played at England rugby Internationals and respected.

If you think not playing an anthem before a game even comes close to the bigotry of the gAA you must be sick.

Public money paid for half of Croke Park at least. Yes most of it is lottery funding but that is still public money and a tax and those who weren't very good at maths in school.

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Everyone who buys a lotto ticket knows that the primary purpose of the funds raised go to sports. It is not a forced taxation. The GAA as the most supported sports organisation on this island (I base this on the facts that their crowds outnumber all other sports) deserve the majority of this funding.

And for the umpteeth time, just because an organisation gets money from the government does not mean they are obliged to open up their facilities to their competitors.

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Originally Posted by Sunnyside Up

First of all, Peter Canavan did not have his GAA kit on. As an amateur player he can surely support whatever party he wants.

Secondly, the FAI have had no problem taking money from Sinn Fein and not so long ago have run an ad in an official ROI soccer program.

Thirdly, Irish soccer grounds have been used for Sinn Fein fundraisers.

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I don't have a copy of the advert anymore but I'm sure it can be dug up somewhere. It was Pat Doherty's election material and the GAA logo was very prominent as were Sean Teague - Tyrone captain and Peter Canavan and the tyrone shirt was very prominent. It may have been Teague in the Tyrone jersey and Canavan in the tracksuit. Do you think the advert was ok then? Do you think the GAA should have allowed its logo to be used like that without comment?

Canavan is allowed hold any views he likes no matter how vile and repugnant they are however he shoulds not be allowed to use the GAA to promote them.

The ad in the Romania programme was wrong. It was taken by a 3rd party company who run the programme however it still shouldn't have happened.

I'm not awar eof any football grounds being used for Sinn Fein fundraisers. They did try and sponsor a Junior team which got blocked and O'Snodaigh did try and hold a function at a Ballyfermot clubhouse which I think went ahead and again I think this is wrong. Can you detail your examples?

The F.A.I. don't have policies on SF or the IRA. what is your point here? Are you trying to equate the above with the clear provocation of the Unionist community in NI with the naming of cups and teams after dead IRA men?

The following below were taken from 2 issues of An Phoblacht.

FUNCTION: Featuring the Spirit of Freedom. 9pm Saturday 20 October, GAA Club, BISHOPSTOWN, CORK. T‡ille £5

IRISH NIGHT: Featuring the Wolfe Tones. 8pm Wednesday 24 October, St Davog's GAA Centre, AGHYARAN, County Tyrone. Band on stage at 10pm. Tickets from GAA Centre and the Cairde Office, Strabane. Tickets limited. Contact no 71 382119

HUNGER STRIKES COMMEMORATION: Through Song and Stories. 9pm Saturday 27 October, GAA Centre, DERRYTRESK, County Tyrone. £3 donation at door.

SF FUNDRAISER: Featuring Justice. 9pm Sunday 28 October, O'Rahilly's GAA Club, DROGHEDA, County Louth. T‡ille £5. Organised by the Bobby Sands SF Cumann

CROSSMAGLEN HUNGER STRIKE COMMEMMORATION: Unveiling of Memorial Stone. Assemble 2pm Sunday 21 October, Rangers GFC, CROSSMAGLEN, County Armagh. Prominent Speakers in Attendance


o AMACH AGUS ISTEACH. Republican Ex-Prisoners, Ardeoin. A Chara, Is mian linn cuireadh a thabhairt duit freastal ar bhur Cruinniu Ginearalta. Ar Aoine 24u Deireadh Fomhair 2003. I Ogra Seomrai GAA, Ardeoin. Cordially invite you to our AGM on Friday 24 October 2003 @7.30pm. In minor rooms, GAA, Ardoyne. As an Ex-POW it's in your interest to attend. Is Tusa Le Meas, Coiste, Amach agus isteach

SF XMAS FUNCTION: Featuring Spirit of Freedom. 9pm Saturday 22 December, GAA Club, BISHOPSTOWN, County Cork. T‡ille £5

IRISH NIGHT: Friday 28 December, St Davog's GAA Centre, AGHYARAN, County Tyrone. Music by Spirit of Freedom

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Originally Posted by Sunnyside Up

Everyone who buys a lotto ticket knows that the primary purpose of the funds raised go to sports. It is not a forced taxation. The GAA as the most supported sports organisation on this island (I base this on the facts that their crowds outnumber all other sports) deserve the majority of this funding.

And for the umpteeth time, just because an organisation gets money from the government does not mean they are obliged to open up their facilities to their competitors.

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I actually think the funding should mainly go the most active participant sports as opposed to the best supported. although we are splitting hairs here I think sport in general is way underfunded.

I fully agree with your 2nd point.

My main gripe is with the government

1) they should have put conditions on the funding - learned from this with a stake in Lansdowne.

2) Given the significant potential loss of revenue to the economy if Croke Park is not made available they should bin requests for future fuinding,

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Can we get past this notion that those opposed to soccer in Croker are bigots? "The narrow minded bigots that seem to call the shots": Rule 42 is going to Congress with different motions having been put forward by 11 counties. Sean Kelly, the head of the GAA, is clearly in favour of soccer in Croker, does he not call at least some of the shots?

For the millionth time, calling the GAA bigots will get soccer fans nowhere. There are undoubtedly rednecks in the GAA as there are soccer rednecks and rugby rednecks in the FAI and IRFU, respectively. But to assume that soccer in Croker is simply being held up by bigots is just missing the GAA's point. 40-50% of GAA members are against opening the stadium up, are they all bigots?

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Sean Kelly is not a bigot. Tommy Kenoy is not a bigot.

However those opposed to allowing football and rugby into Croke Park are bigots.

They are narrow minded bigots and by association the thousands of decent GAA folk will suffer and those who don't know the organisation and looking in from outside will assume you are all just a bunch of narrow minded bigots.

It may not be helpful but it is true

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Originally Posted by gspain

However those opposed to allowing football and rugby into Croke Park are bigots.

They are narrow minded bigots and by association the thousands of decent GAA folk will suffer and those who don't know the organisation and looking in from outside will assume you are all just a bunch of narrow minded bigots.

It may not be helpful but it is true

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That is complete rubbish gspain, I'm suprised you'd say that, to be honest. Until now I thought you're issue was with bigots within the GAA but this is ridiculous. If you think that everyone who is opposed to opening the GAA is a bigot, then you completely misunderstand the GAA.

You seem to be linking opposition to Croker opening to support for Sinn Fein and the IRA...

There are so many GAA fans out there who don't want to open it because they fear the effect that allowing soccer and rugby into Croker will have on the organisation, in terms of losing kids to the sports. This has nothing to do with bigotry, 800 years, Catholics, Protestants, the North or the Queen. This has to do with competition with other sports and nothing else so to call them bigots is completely out of order and I'm being as polite as possible here.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

That is complete rubbish gspain, I'm suprised you'd say that, to be honest. Until now I thought you're issue was with bigots within the GAA but this is ridiculous. If you think that everyone who is opposed to opening the GAA is a bigot, then you completely misunderstand the GAA.

You seem to be linking opposition to Croker opening to support for Sinn Fein and the IRA...

There are so many GAA fans out there who don't want to open it because they fear the effect that allowing soccer and rugby into Croker will have on the organisation, in terms of losing kids to the sports. This has nothing to do with bigotry, 800 years, Catholics, Protestants, the North or the Queen. This has to do with competition with other sports and nothing else so to call them bigots is completely out of order and I'm being as polite as possible here.

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I don't thijk SF has a position on Croke Park but the extremists in NI oppsoed to the opening of Croke Park aree more likely to be SF supporters wouldn't you think?

The main reason for keeping Croke Park closed is bigotry. Even today's debate on RTE radio with Tom McGurk, Eugene McGee etc McGee was defending them and talking about Bloody Sunday 1916 etc etc says he diodn't agree with them but understood them. Ditto for Joe Brolly on radio and Dessie Farrell on Prime Time. Indeed McGurk lamented nobody was willing to go on and defend the No position.

I don't buy the competition thing sorry. Not a word against U2 concerts - surely a huge draw on youing people and disrupting your season for it too.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Sean Kelly is not a bigot. Tommy Kenoy is not a bigot.

However those opposed to allowing football and rugby into Croke Park are bigots.

They are narrow minded bigots and by association the thousands of decent GAA folk will suffer and those who don't know the organisation and looking in from outside will assume you are all just a bunch of narrow minded bigots.

It may not be helpful but it is true

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Brian Kerr must be a bigot too; he doesn't believe soccer should be played in Croke Park.

Or can you only see it in Black and White?

What about those who believe GAA is in direct competition with Rugby and Soccer. It is. Soccer is big business. Why was the last Snickers World Cup in Asia, the 1994 Snickers World Cup in the United States. To agressively expand in those markets and make money, for both FIFA and the multi-national package goods companies that prop them up.

One of the few competitive advantages an amateur organisation like the GAA has over these global sports organisations is Croke Park. This is business and you keep your advantage. End of story. It is nothing to do with bigotry,1921, Union Jacks or Garrison Games. Who gives a flying fcuk about that. But we do give a sh#t that Gaelic Games continue to thrive. As such, it is not our national duty to provide billboard space for Snickers, Coca Cola, Merchandise United, Fairyland(tm), in one of the finest stadia in Europe and allow our own sports to be squeezed out by the marketing dollars/euro FIFA has at its disposal.

And don't tell me that can't happen. Just look at the US where money, media coverage, sponsorship, etc, of American Football, Basketball and Baseball kills every other sport.

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Originally Posted by gspain

I don't thijk SF has a position on Croke Park but the extremists in NI oppsoed to the opening of Croke Park aree more likely to be SF supporters wouldn't you think?

The main reason for keeping Croke Park closed is bigotry. Even today's debate on RTE radio with Tom McGurk, Eugene McGee etc McGee was defending them and talking about Bloody Sunday 1916 etc etc says he diodn't agree with them but understood them. Ditto for Joe Brolly on radio and Dessie Farrell on Prime Time. Indeed McGurk lamented nobody was willing to go on and defend the No position.

I don't buy the competition thing sorry. Not a word against U2 concerts - surely a huge draw on youing people and disrupting your season for it too.

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Your point about U2 can be discounted. That's a concert - people aren't going to stop playing GAA because they like U2. On the other hand, a GAA person may well be apprehensive about giving further publicity to a game such as soccer which is shoved in our faces through advertising, Sky Sports, etc, on a phenomenal basis.

I spoke to the operator of a major GAA supporters' website recently and he said that's the main reason on the ground: fear that the numbers of kids playing gaelic and especially hurling are dropping in certain parts of the country. It might not be a rational fear - to think that opening Croker even temporarily will seriously damage the GAA - but it is a genuine grassroots one. Who are you to think that these people are secretly bigoted against protestants, British, whoever? I would love to see soccer played in Croke Park but many of my friends who play GAA and support it are against it. They are most definitely not bigots and I'm offended by your suggestion, to be honest.

Your connection between Sinn Fein and Croke Park is just ridiculous. If Sinn Fein/IRA people around Ireland choose to oppose the opening of Croke Park on their twisted logic, then so be it. That does not in any way connect others opposed to its opening to Sinn Fein, how in God's name does it?

Sinn Fein were opposed to the Nice Treaty. I was too (initially). Am I a bigot?

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Originally Posted by gspain

the extremists in NI oppsoed to the opening of Croke Park aree more likely to be SF supporters wouldn't you think?

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So what? What of those such as Limerick GAA, which is against it? Limerick has not one Sinn Fein councillor or TD for a pretty big electorate. Are they under-the-bed bigots too or maybe just conservative and afraid of a massive change which might negatively affect the GAA?

What of half the GAA membership that is also opposed to it who are not from Northern Ireland and are not connected in any way to SF/IRA? What of all the GAA members in NI opposed to its opening who have no connection to SF/IRA? Are they all just bigots?

Plenty of SF/IRA members came from Roscommon but Roscommon GAA supports Croker's opening.

You've made an argument before about local GAA goings-on that are uncomfortably close to full blown support for the IRA in that area. This is fine. I don't think this represents the GAA as a whole and I don't think it's an institutional thing but your argument is a strong one and more than stands up.

This one is just ridiculous.

Brian Kerr is not oipposed to football in Croke Park. This was a disgraceful comment by Eugene McGee yesterday. He admitted there were GAA bigots and then tried to claim there were "sockUR bigots" who wouldn't want anything to do with Croke Park incl Brian Kerr. Kerr was very diplomatic when interviewed and said it wasn't available. Anybody that thinks that if Croke Park is opened up that there will be a rump of football and rugby fans arguing against using it for idealogical reasons is in dreamland.

SF/IRA is clouding the issue - I have issues with GAA support in certain areas for them and official policy albeit in writing but not in practice. I doubt if they are too bothered by the campaign.

Indeed as you argue most of the opponents of Rule 42 in the Republic are more likely to be Fianna Fail/FG or whoever.

I don't buy the competition one bit. The GAA won't stop any football or rugby matches going ahead or been bombarded on TV as you claim. They'll be beamed in from Cardiff or Old Trafford or Anfield.

The only difference is the GAA will not get the revenue in rent and instead it will go to Man Utd or Liverpool to open more megastores - maybe in Ireland instead of the money being used to promoted hurling in Dublin.

Also how come no other sporting organisation in the world has similar rules and practices.

It is bigotry pure and simple. It is a minority and indeed a tiny minority of GAA people in general but the kind of guys with a zeal and drive to be in positions of influence.

Paddy Power currently has Rule 42 odds on to Stay. Paddy (or Stewart Kenny) is a very rich man and he doesn't get it wrong often.

I actually believe the only way it will go is if there is a GAA backlash against the bigots and the ordinary members see real damage being done to the association by them.

Last year the motions got blocked and not much comment.

This year they blocked the motions and there was an outcry. Dessie Farrell, Joe Brolly and even Eugene McGee - respected GAA people all give the main reason as being 1916, Bloody Sunday etc and in fairness all 3 said it was crazy. Joe Brolly even said his father (Francie SF MLA and "The GAA is synonymous with Republicanism" quote) was in favour of opening it up.

I know one person in Limerick who contributes a signifcant sum each year to his local GAA club but is mor eof a rugby fan and he wrote last week and told them he won't be making any further contributions if Limerick vote against the opening of Croke Park.

[QUOTE=gspain]Brian Kerr is not oipposed to football in Croke Park. This was a disgraceful comment by Eugene McGee yesterday. He admitted there were GAA bigots and then tried to claim there were "sockUR bigots" who wouldn't want anything to do with Croke Park incl Brian Kerr. Kerr was very diplomatic when interviewed and said it wasn't available. Anybody that thinks that if Croke Park is opened up that there will be a rump of football and rugby fans arguing against using it for idealogical reasons is in dreamland.

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Originally Posted by gspain

SF/IRA is clouding the issue - I have issues with GAA support in certain areas for them and official policy albeit in writing but not in practice. I doubt if they are too bothered by the campaign.

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SF/IRA is clouding the issue because you connected opposition to Croker opening to support for SF/IRA. It sounds even more ridiculous now.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Indeed as you argue most of the opponents of Rule 42 in the Republic are more likely to be Fianna Fail/FG or whoever.

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So you were just shooting your mouth off when it came to the SF bit? But these people are still bigots, right?

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Originally Posted by gspain

I don't buy the competition one bit. The GAA won't stop any football or rugby matches going ahead or been bombarded on TV as you claim. They'll be beamed in from Cardiff or Old Trafford or Anfield.

The only difference is the GAA will not get the revenue in rent and instead it will go to Man Utd or Liverpool to open more megastores - maybe in Ireland instead of the money being used to promoted hurling in Dublin.

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This is a fair point. Again, I would love to see it opened. However, the fact that the GAA won't stop matches being beamed in from Cardiff is a million miles away from it happening literally on their own doorstep.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Also how come no other sporting organisation in the world has similar rules and practices.

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Because very few organisations share the same history as the GAA. That's quite simple, really.

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Originally Posted by gspain

It is bigotry pure and simple. It is a minority and indeed a tiny minority of GAA people in general but the kind of guys with a zeal and drive to be in positions of influence.

I actually believe the only way it will go is if there is a GAA backlash against the bigots and the ordinary members see real damage being done to the association by them.

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What are you talking about? The GAA isn't a dictatorship (no matter what the motions committee try on). Who are the 'ordinary members?' This is a bigoted minority? Go to www.anfearrua.com, the most popular GAA supporters' website. It's 50-50 there, according to their polls. These are just fans. This is not a minority, where the hell are you getting this particular nugget from?

I started off with respect for your argument but it increasingly seems that you're just mouthing off about GAA and its connections to SF/IRA and connecting all this to Croke Park which, again, is just ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Can we get past this notion that those opposed to soccer in Croker are bigots? "The narrow minded bigots that seem to call the shots.

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I can't. These people believe that they are somehow more 'Irish' than the rest of the country. They let in American football. If it's competition they fear, then allow hockey and cricket to be played on their grounds.

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Originally Posted by wexfordclockend

Hopefully those who can't stand the GAA & it's sports will not attend Croker soccer matches!

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Normally I'd agree you had a point. But after years of witnessing the GAA in Britain using football grounds while banning any reciprocation in Ireland, I'll be making an exception this time, if it's allright by you. True, the GAA in Britain are probably less xenophobic. For instance, the ban on 'Crown forces' members in the GAA was never enforced, possibly due to the argument of an occupying force being rendered meaningless. I remember a Birmingham detective that was murdered about a decade ago who was quite involved with the Warwickshire county board.

BTW, wasn't hurling as much harmed by Gaelic football as by any of the games that the 'foreign' games that the bigots are currently complaining of. Hurling - the great Irish sport played by Cuchaillin - usurped by the hybrid, who many historians of the sport in Ireland contend was really a 'handling and carrying' sport more akin to rugby. There is even an argument that 'Gaelic' football has as much in common with pre-GAA football as 'Tura lura lura (An Irish Lullaby)', 'Galway Bay' and 'It's a great day for the Irish' is representative of traditional Irish music.

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Originally Posted by Sunnyside Up

As such, it is not our national duty to provide billboard space for Snickers, Coca Cola, Merchandise United, Fairyland(tm), in one of the finest stadia in Europe and allow our own sports to be squeezed out by the marketing dollars/euro FIFA has at its disposal.

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So foreign companies never advertise on Croke Park billboards or within the programmes? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Donal81

I spoke to the operator of a major GAA supporters' website recently and he said that's the main reason on the ground: fear that the numbers of kids playing gaelic and especially hurling are dropping in certain parts of the country. It might not be a rational fear - to think that opening Croker even temporarily will seriously damage the GAA - but it is a genuine grassroots one.

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As Wexfordclockend's link showed, the question many people were asking was 'Are we that insecure?' Are you? Is the GAA - who its supporters tell us constantly, promote the best sports in the world - think that the opening of their grounds (for which they will get paid) will damage their sports? I agree with Senor Espana and indeed many of the posters on the link provided by Wexford: This is garbage! 1. The horse has already bolted - kids are already playing football: many playing Gaelic football and hurling at the same time aswell. And so there is only money to be made out of such a move and keep it within Ireland rather than whereever we have to play our games. 2. The cultural advantage that the sport has in many schools in Ireland. 3. Isn't it about time that the GAA went on the offensive? I'm back with our friends in Birmingham here. A young bloke from the North received an Irish Post award last year (I was at the awards ceremony and met the lovely mother of Damian Duff there too) for getting Gaelic football introduced in the sports curriculum of Birmingham schools, most of whom were secular comprehensives. A competition now exists where schools of mostly non-Irish background compete against each other. If GAA people are so concerned about the 'proselytising' of soccer, isn't it about time the GAA did a bit of it themselves. Or is this just another example of its bigotry in that the games should remain within the Irish community?

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Originally Posted by lopez

I can't. These people believe that they are somehow more 'Irish' than the rest of the country. They let in American football. If it's competition they fear, then allow hockey and cricket to be played on their grounds.

As Wexfordclockend's link showed, the question many people were asking was 'Are we that insecure?' Are you? Is the GAA - who its supporters tell us constantly, promote the best sports in the world - think that the opening of their grounds (for which they will get paid) will damage their sports? I agree with Senor Espana and indeed many of the posters on the link provided by Wexford: This is garbage! 1. The horse has already bolted - kids are already playing football: many playing Gaelic football and hurling at the same time aswell. And so there is only money to be made out of such a move and keep it within Ireland rather than whereever we have to play our games. 2. The cultural advantage that the sport has in many schools in Ireland. 3. Isn't it about time that the GAA went on the offensive? I'm back with our friends in Birmingham here. A young bloke from the North received an Irish Post award last year (I was at the awards ceremony and met the lovely mother of Damian Duff there too) for getting Gaelic football introduced in the sports curriculum of Birmingham schools, most of whom were secular comprehensives. A competition now exists where schools of mostly non-Irish background compete against each other. If GAA people are so concerned about the 'proselytising' of soccer, isn't it about time the GAA did a bit of it themselves. Or is this just another example of its bigotry in that the games should remain within the Irish community?

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Why are you asking me am I insecure? I've written several times that I would love to see soccer and rugby in Croke Park, did you read that part of my post? The only reason I'm arguing here is because it's too easy for people to just put it down to bigotry when that's just not the case.

Yes there are indeed bigots within the GAA as there are bigots within the soccer community and the rugby community. Some people are opposed to Croker opening because of the Black and Tans, because of 1916, because of 800 years and all that. But not all of them are, is it really that difficult to understand?

Why is it that the picture being painted here by Lopez and gspain of GAA supporters against Croker opening is of militant extremists with a whiff of sulphur about them who hate the west Brit prods that play soccer and won't open Croker to Irish soccer and rugby because they won't let those heathens sully our sacred stadium with their British hands and feet? This is just so plainly ridiculous I can't believe you're getting away with it. So many of my friends and family love and play GAA. The GAA club in my area has done so much for the community as has the soccer club. Plenty of them are against it opening and do not dare to call them bigoted against soccer or English sports or whatever it is that they're apparently bigoted against.

The refusal to accept the notion that GAA supporters might be slightly concerned about competition with soccer and rugby is ludicrous. I might disagree with those who are opposed to opening Croke Park but I'm not just going to call them bigots because we soccer fans aren't going to get our way.

There are some clowns on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Why are you asking me am I insecure?

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Because you're the one saying it's all down to fear of competition from sports.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Some people are opposed to Croker opening because of the Black and Tans, because of 1916, because of 800 years and all that. But not all of them are, is it really that difficult to understand?
Is it not that difficult to understand that the opening of Croke Park to soccer will have little effect on the GAA other than bring in money.

Why is it that the picture being painted here by Lopez and gspain of GAA supporters against Croker opening is of militant extremists with a whiff of sulphur about them who hate the west Brit prods that play soccer and won't open Croker to Irish soccer and rugby because they won't let those heathens sully our sacred stadium with their British hands and feet? This is just so plainly ridiculous I can't believe you're getting away with it.

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I'm not supporting GSpain's view of the GAA being the athletic wing of the IRA. Go back and read our slanging match before coming out with sh*te like that. I'm saying that there are a number of people within the GAA that feel we are less Irish for playing and watching 'soccer'. It wasn't long ago that the late mouthpiece for the GAA in Britain, John Barratt (brother of a Kerry footballer who I think is JJ Barrett) used his column in the Irish Post to call a friend of mine who was then chairman of the London Branch of the RISSC, a 'second class Irishman.' Your friends may have genuine or ill-founded fears about soccer encroaching on their patch, but Barratt's statement tells me that there is a section of the GAA family (however small) who see this in pure terms of bigotry.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

The refusal to accept the notion that GAA supporters might be slightly concerned about competition with soccer and rugby is ludicrous. I might disagree with those who are opposed to opening Croke Park but I'm not just going to call them bigots because we soccer fans aren't going to get our way.

There are some clowns on this forum.

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Well it looks like being enriched by the appearance of yet another clown. So the concerns about competition with soccer and rugby are ludicrous? A blanket statement without any backup. And yet you haven't commented on my three points about the GAA. That soccer is well established and that opening up the grounds will only bring money into the GAA and its clubs while also maintaining a healthy payday for Dublin businesses on big match days. That the GAA has a huge advantage in Irish schools over soccer and rugby and therefore it will still have plenty of recruits. That the GAA is reluctant to expand its 'customer base' even though, even amongst the English, it has been proved by the perseverence of individuals that there are opportunities to spread the game.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Because you're the one saying it's all down to fear of competition from sports.

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No I am not and I have never said that, not once, I have always conceded that there are bigots within the GAA, how have you missed that?

My argument from the start has been that not all those opposed to the opening of Croker are doing so because they're bigoted. What am I supposed to be insecure about? About the destruction of the GAA through opening Croke Park up? Did you not read the part where I said I would love to see soccer played in the place?

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Originally Posted by lopez

I'm not supporting GSpain's view of the GAA being the athletic wing of the IRA. Go back and read our slanging match before coming out with sh*te like that.

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True, you're not and apologies if it read like that but you are lumping all those opposed in together, bigots with normal decent GAA supporters with rubbish like this below:

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Originally Posted by lopez

I can't. These people believe that they are somehow more 'Irish' than the rest of the country.

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If you're referring to the GAA bible belt people who hate all things English, you're spot on. If you're putting together all supporters who are opposed to opening Croke Park, that's just wrong.

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Originally Posted by lopez

I'm saying that there are a number of people within the GAA that feel we are less Irish for playing and watching 'soccer'. It wasn't long ago that the late mouthpiece for the GAA in Britain, John Barratt (brother of a Kerry footballer who I think is JJ Barrett) used his column in the Irish Post to call a friend of mine who was then chairman of the London Branch of the RISSC, a 'second class Irishman.' Your friends may have genuine or ill-founded fears about soccer encroaching on their patch, but Barratt's statement tells me that there is a section of the GAA family (however small) who see this in pure terms of bigotry.

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Firstly, you refer to "soccer encroaching on their patch." These friends also follow soccer and are regulars in Lansdowne.

I've always agreed that there are people in the GAA that see the situation through bigotry, just not all of them! How hard is this to understand? Now you're saying that there is only a section of the GAA family that's bigoted. I thought it was everyone opposed to the Croke Park situation?

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Originally Posted by lopez

Well it looks like being enriched by the appearance of yet another clown. So the concerns about competition with soccer and rugby are ludicrous? A blanket statement without any backup. And yet you haven't commented on my three points about the GAA. That soccer is well established and that opening up the grounds will only bring money into the GAA and its clubs while also maintaining a healthy payday for Dublin businesses on big match days. That the GAA has a huge advantage in Irish schools over soccer and rugby and therefore it will still have plenty of recruits. That the GAA is reluctant to expand its 'customer base' even though, even amongst the English, it has been proved by the perseverence of individuals that there are opportunities to spread the game.

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Not accepting that GAA people are concerned about competition and that their only motivation is bigotry is indeed ludicrous. Whether or not GAA peoples' fears about competition from other sports is based on pure fact doesn't matter to this argument, that's why I didn't bother responding the first time. It may well enhance the GAA, it may hinder its development. The fact is that a lot of GAA people think that opening Croke Park to soccer and rugby will negatively affect gaelic games. This is not bigoted, this is based on competitiveness. Whether or not they're being realistic is irrelevant to this particular argument. To the overall Croke Park argument, it's obviously relevant.

The same thing applies to the second point. They do indeed have an advantage in that national schools largely only play GAA. However, the fear is still there, whether it's realistic or not. This doesn't come down to hatred of all things English, does it?

As for the third point, I don't know anything about the GAA's lack of attempts to spread the game around the world, I've never spent time in England, Australia, etc. I don't really see how this is relevant to the argument on Croke Park. There are bigots in the GAA. I accept this and I'm not blindly defending an organisation with many flaws. However, there are other reasons out there for the opposition to Croke Park such as competition, dislike of an incompetent FAI, selfishness in not wanting to help out another sport. Not everyone against it is a bigot and this is what you're arguing.

I still don't get the competition argument. Most kids play a number of different sports anyway. No doubt yesterday's great win over England at rugby may encourage some kids to give their allegiance to rugby in future. Now fast forward 2 years and the game will go ahead no matter what. It may be in Cardiff or even the new Wembley but anyway it will still be totally sold out. It will still get the same tv coverage and the IRFU will still pocket roughly the same amount of money. I really can't see it makes any difference where the game is played from that perspective unless you think GAA kids would be more likely to watch it because the game is in Croke Park and then they'd give up their GAA allegiance when they see rugby in their stadium.

Now if Croke Park remains closed there will be a huge anti GAA backlash among football and rugby people particularly when we are getting on boats and planes to Manchester, Liverpool or Cardiff. I also believe the GAA has got off very lightly in the past Surely this will lead to a hardening of attitudes and less young people playing GAA and the GAA getting more critical press in the future.

It is blindly obvious that the F.A.I. have been playing many more home friendlies than away friendlies in recent years with the return games likely to take place during the redevelopment of Lansdowne. We had 40,000 fans in Paris last October so I've little doubt that we sellout our big home games in the 2008/2010 qualifiers. There would be a clear revenue loss as games v the Faroes or Cyprus for example would hardly be big money spinners and you could I suppose argue that the F.A.I. would have less money to invest in youth coaching etc. However likewise the GAA would not have the potential rental income from Croke Park and would have the additional maintenance costs of an 80,000+ capacity stadium lying idle for 8 months of the year.

So ultimately in my view it comes down to the strong nationalist traditions in the GAA. It comes down to Bloody Sunday to Hill 16 being built from the rubble of the GPO and it comes down to GSTQ being belted out by 18,000 English(wo)men with the cross of St. George fluttering overhead. - I can actually think of a far worse scenario for these "traditionalists" - imagine we play Northern ireland in football and GSTQ is belted out and the Union Jack is flown for Northern Ireland because whatever the many objections to GSTQ being sung for England at Croke Park it would be multiplied ten fold if sung for Northern Ireland. Who knows maybe Liz will have had enough and abdicated in favour of her grandson by then so it could be God Save the King instead and the first King Billy for over 300 years.............. :eek: :eek:

Just to correct one thing I posted earlier. Sunnysideup claimed Peter Canavan was in civvies in the SF advert. This is correct. Sean Teague - captain - was in the Tyrone jersey and a ladies player was in the GAA tracksuit. Canavan did not display the GAA logo in the leaflet.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Not accepting that GAA people are concerned about competition and that their only motivation is bigotry is indeed ludicrous. Whether or not GAA peoples' fears about competition from other sports is based on pure fact doesn't matter to this argument, that's why I didn't bother responding the first time. It may well enhance the GAA, it may hinder its development. The fact is that a lot of GAA people think that opening Croke Park to soccer and rugby will negatively affect gaelic games. This is not bigoted, this is based on competitiveness. Whether or not they're being realistic is irrelevant to this particular argument. To the overall Croke Park argument, it's obviously relevant.

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OK how come no other sporting organisation has ever closed its doors to another one because of competition then?

Why isn't there a rump in the IRFU against football at Lansdowne road?

Real Sociedad bent over backwards to accomodate Biarritz v Munster - are they not worried about competition.

Listen to your own GAA people if you don't believe me - Dessie Farrell, Joe Brolly etc etc.

Call it tradition, call it conservative or use any euphemisms you like. We all know what it is B I G O T R Y

Did the GAA face the competition argument when they asked for Wembley, for Highbury, for Stamford Bridge, for Elland Road, for rugby grounds in Paris or football grounds in Italy or baseball grounds in New York?

Why didn't Linfield use it when a local camoige team asked to use Windsor Park?

It is a rump. it is a minority but it exists and it is very powerful.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

No I am not and I have never said that, not once, I have always conceded that there are bigots within the GAA, how have you missed that?

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You are by proxy saying it for others, bigots or not. You support the opening of Croke Park. Amen. I support immigration into Ireland. F*cked if I'm going to stand up for those mates of mine - none of which are bigots of course - who are worried about the danger of the competition to jobs, women, future colour of your typical Irishman.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

If you're referring to the GAA bible belt people who hate all things English, you're spot on. If you're putting together all supporters who are opposed to opening Croke Park, that's just wrong.

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From the start it was always a minority, albeit one that is in control. See http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=218784&postcount=32 for my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Firstly, you refer to "soccer encroaching on their patch." These friends also follow soccer and are regulars in Lansdowne.

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Sorry but I'm beginning to feel that we have some bandwagon boarders here. Love 'soccer' unless it's played on holy Gaelic turf. Please!!! I like 'soccer' yet in the domestic sphere watch more Zurich League rugby (no prizes for guessing which club). I also like hurling although, and forgive me if I'm about to insult a holy cow, can't stand 'Gaelic' football. Is there a conflict here. I can't see it myself.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

I've always agreed that there are people in the GAA that see the situation through bigotry, just not all of them! How hard is this to understand? Now you're saying that there is only a section of the GAA family that's bigoted. I thought it was everyone opposed to the Croke Park situation?

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See the post above. Let's have a straight democratic vote. Or even better why not let the various clubs and county boards decide. Horses for course eh? Take Limerick. Solid working class rugby city. No excuses of a threat to 'Gaelic' here. What if the local GAA and the Muster RU got together to build a super stadium to share and rent out to 'soccer', American football, Korfball, W*nkball even. It makes economic sense. Only blind bigotry would stop this.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

I don't know anything about the GAA's lack of attempts to spread the game around the world, I've never spent time in England, Australia, etc. I don't really see how this is relevant to the argument on Croke Park. There are bigots in the GAA. I accept this and I'm not blindly defending an organisation with many flaws. However, there are other reasons out there for the opposition to Croke Park such as competition, dislike of an incompetent FAI, selfishness in not wanting to help out another sport. Not everyone against it is a bigot and this is what you're arguing.

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You suggest to speak as a GAA person, but feign ignorance on the GAA's attempts at spreading the word. Look at the votes that come at conference. These are a simple reflection of the diaspora. Ireland top, followed by Britain and the US with Australia, Canada a poor third and a couple of votes from 'Europe.' In fact it's not a reflection of the diaspora: It's a reflection of the diaspora post-Cusack. The relevance to this argument is this: You say that the GAA is fearful of soccer being played on its turf will destroy its games. And yet, why has it not gone on the offensive into areas outside the Irish orbit. To use your favourite refrain: 'How hard is this to understand?' The bloke in Birmingham has proved it. Going alone he promoted a game tougher than soccer yet without the injuries of rugby. He managed it. FFS, get out and sell the game. Instead the GAA - while not confining the game to pure sons of the Milesians - have confined their games to Ireland and Irish communities. Those non-Irish that play the games come into it by pure coincidence, usually by Irish friends. In contrast, look at Irish dancing. It's a phenomenal success in Britain and looks like being a success in Europe. In my daughters school there are no 1st generation Irish, a minority of 2nd and 3rd generation Irish girls with about 2/3 taken up by girls with no Irish blood. The half time Irish dancing in Amsterdam in 2000 with a large number of dancers of African origin proves that this aspect of Irish culture is successfully being exported. It's time the GAA did the same instead of slogans like 'It's part of what we are' which suggest that the GAA is insular.

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Originally Posted by lopez

You are by proxy saying it for others, bigots or not. You support the opening of Croke Park. Amen. I support immigration into Ireland. F*cked if I'm going to stand up for those mates of mine - none of which are bigots of course - who are worried about the danger of the competition to jobs, women, future colour of your typical Irishman.

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Now you are completely out of order. You have no right whatsoever to make a judgement on people you don't even know and you're insulting friends of mine. You're connecting this to bigotry without a shred of evidence. Cop yourself on.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Sorry but I'm beginning to feel that we have some bandwagon boarders here. Love 'soccer' unless it's played on holy Gaelic turf. Please!!! I like 'soccer' yet in the domestic sphere watch more Zurich League rugby (no prizes for guessing which club). I also like hurling although, and forgive me if I'm about to insult a holy cow, can't stand 'Gaelic' football. Is there a conflict here. I can't see it myself.

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No, what I meant was that these people aren't anti-British, aren't bigots, love soccer, love rugby, love GAA. They don't think the GAA should have to open Croke Park and it's not for bigoted reasons. Oh sorry, you know better, they are bigoted, I'm just making all this up.

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Originally Posted by lopez

See the post above. Let's have a straight democratic vote. Or even better why not let the various clubs and county boards decide. Horses for course eh? Take Limerick. Solid working class rugby city. No excuses of a threat to 'Gaelic' here. What if the local GAA and the Muster RU got together to build a super stadium to share and rent out to 'soccer', American football, Korfball, W*nkball even. It makes economic sense. Only blind bigotry would stop this.

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Well, I don't know many from Limerick nor their position on Croke Park. The Limerick GAA board opposes the opening of Croke Park. So far, I've read that they're wary of Rule 42 changing as it might lead to GAA grounds in Limerick such as the Gaelic Grounds opening up to Munster rugby or the likes. I've no beef with that. A lot of people in Limerick would. Some because they hate all things British. Others because they don't want to give their competitors a hand for competitive reasons. There is a difference between the two, which you can't accept.

By the way, Limerick GAA previously supported Croke Park opening but changed their minds, largely as a result of the Gaelic Grounds issue. What, they just woke up and turned into bigots, is that what happened?

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Originally Posted by lopez

You suggest to speak as a GAA person, but feign ignorance on the GAA's attempts at spreading the word.

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What are you talking about now? When did I suggest to speak as a 'GAA person?' Soccer is my first game and always will be, why should I know anything about the GAA's attempts to spread the game?

I'm "feigning ignorance"? Are you accusing me of lying? Get f*cked if that's the case, sorry to resort to that but you're out of order again.

Soccer is my first game but I watch Kerry and Dublin GAA games and go to Croker a few times a year. I know a lot of GAA people as I know a lot of soccer people. I don't automatically assume that these people are secret bigots and I don't see why you should.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Look at the votes that come at conference. These are a simple reflection of the diaspora. Ireland top, followed by Britain and the US with Australia, Canada a poor third and a couple of votes from 'Europe.' In fact it's not a reflection of the diaspora: It's a reflection of the diaspora post-Cusack. The relevance to this argument is this: You say that the GAA is fearful of soccer being played on its turf will destroy its games. And yet, why has it not gone on the offensive into areas outside the Irish orbit. To use your favourite refrain: 'How hard is this to understand?' The bloke in Birmingham has proved it. Going alone he promoted a game tougher than soccer yet without the injuries of rugby. He managed it. FFS, get out and sell the game. Instead the GAA - while not confining the game to pure sons of the Milesians - have confined their games to Ireland and Irish communities. Those non-Irish that play the games come into it by pure coincidence, usually by Irish friends. In contrast, look at Irish dancing. It's a phenomenal success in Britain and looks like being a success in Europe. In my daughters school there are no 1st generation Irish, a minority of 2nd and 3rd generation Irish girls with about 2/3 taken up by girls with no Irish blood. The half time Irish dancing in Amsterdam in 2000 with a large number of dancers of African origin proves that this aspect of Irish culture is successfully being exported. It's time the GAA did the same instead of slogans like 'It's part of what we are' which suggest that the GAA is insular.

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Like I said in my last post and the one before that and most likely the one before that as well, I'm sure there are insular people within the GAA as there are bigots within the GAA. You think that the organisation is institutionally insular. I wouldn't call it insular and I think the GAA is too big to judge every single member but that's a decent argument. Calling everyone opposed to the opening of Croke Park bigoted is just ignorant of the situation, to be honest. Some say that it's for competitive reasons but you think that they're secret bigots, is that it?

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Originally Posted by gspain

OK how come no other sporting organisation has ever closed its doors to another one because of competition then?

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Because Ireland is Ireland, with all its flaws.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Why isn't there a rump in the IRFU against football at Lansdowne road?

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Maybe because the IRFU isn't concerned about its future? I never said that GAA fears about dropping numbers due to soccer were rational, I just said they were there and weren't there for bigoted reasons.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Real Sociedad bent over backwards to accomodate Biarritz v Munster - are they not worried about competition.

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The last time I checked, rugby isn't quite as popular in Spain as it is in Ireland, in proportion to soccer. Nor are Real Sociedad an amateur organisation with a siege mentality.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Listen to your own GAA people if you don't believe me - Dessie Farrell, Joe Brolly etc etc.

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I've become a GAA person now, have I? That's right, I'm actually a GAA spy that signed up to Foot.ie to see what the Sasanach are up to, I don't actually follow football at all.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Call it tradition, call it conservative or use any euphemisms you like. We all know what it is B I G O T R Y

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A good argument, well done gspain, I've seen the error of my ways due to your superior debating skills.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Did the GAA face the competition argument when they asked for Wembley, for Highbury, for Stamford Bridge, for Elland Road, for rugby grounds in Paris or football grounds in Italy or baseball grounds in New York?

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I don't think the FA would be too concerned about the GAA stopping kids in London and Leeds following soccer and the same goes for Paris, Italy and New York.

Maybe you're not reading this part, gspain. I know there are bigots in the GAA. Not everyone opposed to Croke Park opening is a bigot, I can personally attest to that. Oh sorry, I'm wrong, we all know it's B I G O T R Y.