Brexit - The End of the United Kingdom?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrisLetang

Obama endorses that French Macaroons guy in stupid ad on French TV. What could possibly go wrong? And why are Macaroons so expensive? They're like 5 bucks each in some places. I like the pink ones.

---

Would you really prefer Le Pen?

I'm with her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

I'm with her.

---

In regards to your fellow countrymen, or at least those on here, North of the border that's extremely short-sighted.

I am not sure exactly how a victory for Le Pen would impact Northern Ireland at all - outside of some more broad impact to Europe as a result of a Frexit which is not yet a certainty even if Le Pen wins. But I am seriously interested in learning more on what that might be.

If you believe that Le Pen is a fair indication of significant concern amongst a notable number of French people then you should really be asking yourself why - what has caused this. Unchecked globalization and the rise of Islamic terrorism are major concerns for a lot of people. I am all in favour of any sovereign nation that wants to (votes to) protect its interests in the ways that it sees fit. We should expect the French to only care about the French.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

I am not sure exactly how a victory for Le Pen would impact Northern Ireland at all - outside of some more broad impact to Europe as a result of a Frexit which is not yet a certainty even if Le Pen wins. But I am seriously interested in learning more on what that might be.

---

You just provided the answer.

Brexit has completely re-invigorated the constitutional debate here. It has provided a geo-political dynamic that didn't exist before, so whilst for Britain Brexit is now a one-way ticket, for Northern Ireland there is an automatic right of return. Essentially - unite Ireland and you reunite with Europe.

So, even though Le Pen has rowed back somewhat on her anti-EU rhetoric, a victory for her casts a shadow over this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

If you believe that Le Pen is a fair indication of significant concern amongst a notable number of French people then you should really be asking yourself why - what has caused this. Unchecked globalization and the rise of Islamic terrorism are major concerns for a lot of people.

---

Of course, and much of that applies to Trump's success in America. I'm not disputing that at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

I am all in favour of any sovereign nation that wants to (votes to) protect its interests in the ways that it sees fit. We should expect the French to only care about the French.

---

Perhaps then you'll apply that sentiment, first and foremost, to your fellow countrymen and women North of the border.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Fly

You just provided the answer.

Brexit has completely re-invigorated the constitutional debate here. It has provided a geo-political dynamic that didn't exist before, so whilst for Britain Brexit is now a one-way ticket, for Northern Ireland there is an automatic right of return. Essentially - unite Ireland and you reunite with Europe.

So, even though Le Pen has rowed back somewhat on her anti-EU rhetoric, a victory for her casts a shadow over this.

---

Good stuff. I wasn't sure if there was something else I was missing. You know, listening to many pre Brexit, you would swear the sky was falling in for Ireland if they voted "Leave". Now that they have, what we realize is that it has actually opened up a lot of opportunity for us and, perhaps, the "experts" are really just making it up as they go. While a Frexit - were it to be a) brought to the French people and b) passed - would be another blow to the power of the EU, I don't think it would mean a whole lot more for Ireland or Northern Ireland than it would to other states. I think the opportunities Brexit created will still exist. Fundamental to this believe is that I also believe there will still be an EU, it will just be a more diluted version. And, principally, that is what I think is best. I think the EU has overreached far beyond its original mandate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Fly

Of course, and much of that applies to Trump's success in America. I'm not disputing that at all.

---

Absolutely, it was just general comment to explain my thinking behind the next couple of sentences. I wasn't saying that you were arguing the other way. Apologies for not being clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Fly

Perhaps then you'll apply that sentiment, first and foremost, to your fellow countrymen and women North of the border.

---

Absolutely. But, ultimately, they must take the action that is necessary to achieve that outcome - if that is what the majority wants. And if the French do vote to leave Europe, Ireland must still look out for Ireland and the people of Northern Ireland must still do what they believe is best for them.

I actually don't think we are disagreeing too much.

I love the attempts to somehow justify Le Pen with long-winded debate. She's a racist, sectarian, far-right nutjob that'll damage both France and Europe, and as part of the bizarre far-right global lurch going on at the moment, probably the rest of the globe too.

Macron is an asswipe - they were all asswipes on some level - but they're all better than Le Pen, in the same way Clinton would have been better than Trump, and Obama was better than his opponents, despite their own failings.

Jesus, even Corbyn would be better than that zombie hag May, and he's a complete fupping moron.

Le Pen would be a very significant nail in all of our coffins.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dahamsta

I love the attempts to somehow justify Le Pen with long-winded debate. She's a racist, sectarian, far-right nutjob that'll damage both France and Europe, and as part of the bizarre far-right global lurch going on at the moment, probably the rest of the globe too.

Macron is an asswipe - they were all asswipes on some level - but they're all better than Le Pen, in the same way Clinton would have been better than Trump, and Obama was better than his opponents, despite their own failings.

Jesus, even Corbyn would be better than that zombie hag May, and he's a complete fupping moron.

Le Pen would be a very significant nail in all of our coffins.

---

All of this. At least twice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

I am not sure exactly how a victory for Le Pen would impact Northern Ireland at all - outside of some more broad impact to Europe as a result of a Frexit which is not yet a certainty even if Le Pen wins. But I am seriously interested in learning more on what that might be.

If you believe that Le Pen is a fair indication of significant concern amongst a notable number of French people then you should really be asking yourself why - what has caused this. Unchecked globalization and the rise of Islamic terrorism are major concerns for a lot of people. I am all in favour of any sovereign nation that wants to (votes to) protect its interests in the ways that it sees fit. We should expect the French to only care about the French.

---

I'm starting to see more and more why you moved away from Bohs. You wouldn't be let in the door at Dalymount these days with views like that. Would you not rather support Rovers? :D

Now that the other dominoes haven't fallen after Britain the establishment have a full election cycle to work with. The politics of this are that Britain is going to be hit and hit hard. The likes of Wilders & Le Pen aren't going anywhere so the experience of Brexit will have to be made so awful for Britain that no country will ever dream of attempting it.

Will Macron's financial strategy be know as Macroneconomics?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by backstothewall

Now that the other dominoes haven't fallen after Britain the establishment have a full election cycle to work with. The politics of this are that Britain is going to be hit and hit hard. The likes of Wilders & Le Pen aren't going anywhere so the experience of Brexit will have to be made so awful for Britain that no country will ever dream of attempting it.

---

That was always going to be the case. And that was always my wish. You don;t get to be a petulant child and still get the biscuits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BonnieShels

That was always going to be the case. And that was always my wish. You don;t get to be a petulant child and still get the biscuits.

---

And the harder the UK gets hammered by the EU, the more likely Scotland is to vote to leave the whole sorry mess behind.

But Peadar aren't things kind of a mess right now in different regards? Don't they blame EU migration law for things like this:
https://heatst.com/world/violent-lon...eorges-school/

It's a useful thing for the EU to encourage. Losing provinces is exactly the sort of language neo-fascists will understand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrisLetang

But Peadar aren't things kind of a mess right now in different regards? Don't they blame EU migration law for things like this:
https://heatst.com/world/violent-lon...eorges-school/

---

Sorry, who says EU migration law is to blame for the existence of scooter-driving criminals in London? :confused:

Katie Hopkins.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrisLetang

Katie Hopkins.

---

Where?

(Also, you're not taking professional troll Katie Hopkins seriously, are you? She's hardly representative of a "they" either...)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Z0PjeW0AIgOFL.jpg

'Journalists as State Functionaries': https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...functionaries/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Craig Murray

There was a brief moment of truth on Sky News this morning, where there was a short discussion of disquiet among journalists that Theresa May will only take questions that have been pre-vetted and selected in advance by the Tory Party. The Sky reporter even gave the detail that the journalists are not allowed to hold the microphone, which is controlled by a Tory Party functionary so it can be switched off if the journalist strays from the script.

...

My observation that the Conservative platform is in its essentials identical to the BNP manifesto of 2005 has received widespread social media coverage. I simply cannot conceive that the UK can have become so right wing. Now add to that, it has become so authoritarian there is no reaction to advance vetting of journalists questions – something Vladimir Putin does not do. And very few people seem to care.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrisLetang

But Peadar aren't things kind of a mess right now in different regards? Don't they blame EU migration law for things like this:
https://heatst.com/world/violent-lon...eorges-school/

---

Depends who you mean by "they".

I live in a part of Glasgow with a very high immigrant population (mainly Chinese and Iraqi, from the people I've had a chance to talk to). It's a very nice, very safe area, with some amazing restaurants as part of the bargain.

A few streets over is a predominantly white British area with some of the worst crime and drug abuse in the UK.

It's not immigration causing crime and antisocial behaviour, it's social inequality. The fact that the UK (and many other countries) have failed the migrant populations they relied on for cheap labour, so they are disproportionately the victims of social inequality, is not in itself an indictment of migrants.

Have you followed this story at all? Is it accurate? They can't report on the Muslims committing crimes anymore? Gavin McInnis has been discussing it a lot. I like Gavin. He is one of the few people who will really talk about a major major issue with the migrant populations few will discuss even though it's true. Anyway,

https://www.therebel.media/save_tommy

Haha of course it's not accurate for god's sake.

Well it's being reported about Charlie. I don't care one way or the other but just BC you are Left Wing it's like nothing outside of that bubble exists to you or DannyI.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tomm...binson&tbm=nws

Haha ok

Yes, you're right, I'm clearly misinformed about Tommy Robinson and he's probably not a white supremacist turd who got arrested for harassing people.

But the crime was real right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrisLetang

Have you followed this story at all? Is it accurate? They can't report on the Muslims committing crimes anymore? Gavin McInnis has been discussing it a lot. I like Gavin. He is one of the few people who will really talk about a major major issue with the migrant populations few will discuss even though it's true. Anyway,

https://www.therebel.media/save_tommy

---

Who can't report on "the Muslims" committing crimes anymore?

The case and alleged crime you refer to isn't being ignored at all; it has been reported upon here by the local press in Kent: http://www.kentlive.news/ex-girlfrie...ail/story.html

Here is a Daily Mail (circulation: 1.5 million) story on it: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...hop-owner.html

And something from the Daily Mirror (circulation: 700,000): http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-girl-10351831

Another local outlet covering it here: http://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/n...asking-125034/

Even Cosmopolitan magazine has given it coverage: http://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/repor...-shop-workers/

It even made it's way across the Irish Sea and into the Irish Sun too: https://www.thesun.ie/news/948087/gi...out-with-pals/

And it seems that the highly-partisan Rebel's version of events may not be entirely accurate, no. It portrays its UK contributor "Tommy Robinson", who is actually named Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon, to have been a victim of police persecution who has had his right to freedom of speech arbitrarily infringed.

However, according to numerous other media reports, "Robinson" was actually arrested for contempt of court after receiving a police warning. It has been reported that he attempted to film (or interview) some of the accused in the aforementioned case from the court steps. His attempt to do so was in breach of the UK's contempt laws which prohibit filming of court precincts.

Any person would have been arrested for committing the same offence as "Robinson" committed. I suspect the offence exists to uphold the integrity and dignity of the judicial system and to protect the privacy of victims, witnesses and defendants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrisLetang

Well it's being reported about Charlie. I don't care one way or the other but just BC you are Left Wing it's like nothing outside of that bubble exists to you or DannyI.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tomm...binson&tbm=nws

---

What doesn't exist, according to me?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KrisLetang

But the crime was real right?

---

I've not been following proceedings, but from what I can make out, the trial is ongoing and the court has yet to reach a verdict. The accused parties may well be found guilty. Or they may be found not guilty. It would be imprudent and ill-advised to presume or declare the guilt of the accused until a verdict confirming such has been passed down.

Anyway, what's the subtext here? What point are you trying to make exactly? Let's get to the nub of it. Are you trying to imply that rape and sexual abuse are Muslim issues? That's the impression I'm getting.

If that's what you're attempting to suggest, you must have missed this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathol...dal_in_Ireland

That was the Irish Catholic Church's sexual abuse scandal. It was pretty big news here.

Now, let's look at some other stats and facts...

From Rape Crisis Network Ireland:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rape Crisis Network Ireland

In 2015, 1,384 people attended 11 Rape Crisis Centres throughout Ireland for counselling and support. This is a decrease of 3% from 2014 figures. This decrease is likely to reflect decreased resources rather than decreased demand as waiting lists remain active for centres. There were 15,192 appointments for counselling and support in these 11 centres in 2015.

• Almost nine in ten service users were survivors of sexual violence (85%).
• 15% were supporting someone who had been subjected to sexual violence.
• Less than 1% were attending RCCs because they were indirectly affected by the sexual violence (neither a survivor nor supporting someone who was a victim of sexual violence).

---

From Rape Crisis Midwest (Ireland):

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rape Crisis Midwest

In 2014, 14 RCNI member Rape Crisis Centres (RCCs):

• Provided counselling and support to 1,913 people
• Provided 340 accompaniments to a range of different services including; Sexual Assault Treatment Units (SATU), Gardaí, court and refugee hearings, and other medical and forensic facilities
• Responded to 18,296 contacts made to their helplines throughout Ireland

This amounted to:

• 17,288 appointments for counselling and support
• 1,596 hours of accompaniment
• 1,250 hours spent on Helpline calls

...

FACT 2: Rapists are men of all ages and from all walks of life.

A US study of 646 convicted rapists found that they were no more psychologically disturbed than those who had committed robberies or assaults (Amir, M. (1971) Patterns of Forcible Rape. Chicago: University of Chicago Press).

---

From Rape Crisis England & Wales:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rape Crisis England & Wales

• Rape Crisis member Centres across England and Wales responded to 171,000 helpline calls in the 12 months to 31st March 2016, an average over 3,000 a week
• 58,000 individuals received an on-going Rape Crisis service(s), an increase of 16% since 2014-15
• Rape Crisis members provided in excess of 350,000 sessions of specialist support, including advocacy, emotional support and counselling, an increase of 17% since 2014-15

...

• Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped in England and Wales alone every year; that's roughly 11 rapes (of adults alone) every hour. These figures include assaults by penetration and attempts.
• Nearly half a million adults are sexually assaulted in England and Wales each year
• 1 in 5 women aged 16 - 59 has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16

...

• 31% of young women aged 18-24 report having experienced sexual abuse in childhood (NSPCC, 2011)

---

Do you think Muslims are to blame for such figures?... The reality is that rape and sexual abuse are much wider societal problems. They have always been a feature of Western/Christian-Judeo/white society (or whatever you wish to call it), and since long before there was ever a political incentive to stir up a crude moral panic about "Islamic immigration" by demonising a poor, brown-skinned ethnic minority desperately fleeing war and lazily rendering them the scapegoats for society's ills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Haha ok

Yes, you're right, I'm clearly misinformed about Tommy Robinson and he's probably not a white supremacist turd who got arrested for harassing people.

---

Robinson is not a white supremacist. At the weekend, I watched all of his speech to the Oxford Union and he tells his story and how and why he became the person he did. One of the things he gets across well is the fact that he is not a white supremacist and is actually despised by nazi and white power groups due to his condemnation of them and his (ultimately unsuccessful - that's why he left) efforts to keep them out of the EDL.

However, he is a convicted criminal and an Islamophobe. His issue is not with individual Muslims but it is with extremist Islam and widespread tolerance of it and he is very clear about this. Some of what he says is still questionable but some of it makes sense. He's a product of his environment and experiences. He cites Lutons own Anjem Choudary and the impact of growing up in that rabid and extreme environment. He describes the hate speech and treatment that he and his family and neighbours were subject to and was allowed to occur (he feels that a different standard is applied to free speech in preference of Islamic extremism v his criticisms of Islamic preaching and incompetent authorities). He also describes the absolute atrocities set out in the Rotherham report ie the systematic rape and abuse of 1400 girls by Muslim gangs. The Rochdale and other similar reports where Muslim gangs were targeting white girls for rape and abuse. He talks about the frustration of seeing cover ups and inaction by the authorities and how all of this perceived or real injustice sowed the seeds for the EDL across the U.K. Ultimately, he says he wants debate and discourse about these issues and for Muslims to fix these problems. He condemned many of the actions of the EDL under his watch and the impacts of what he was saying and realised that he failed to contain the fervour. His speech was well received by many of those in attendance. And he comes across well despite being a terrible speaker.

He is many things - and I don't think his rhetoric is ultimately helpful - but to label him as a white supremacist is inaccurate and lazy.

He may not be a white supremacist, but more importantly is he a humanist?

haha the old "nazis hate me" chestnut.

Right, so being a member of the BNP and then forming his own gang of skinheads were entirely accidental.

Whatever about the validity or invalidity of his views on muslims, the idea he is somehow above racism or has ever opposed it is ridiculous. He's just modified his language from overt racism to 'woe is me, white working class men are the lowest class of citizen' ****e American racists have had so much joy with in the past.

Watch the video.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

Watch the video.

---

Is this the video you're referring to?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YQ94jFg_4A

I see a related "Q & A" video here too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-UAQAvCCC4

Yep. Watched both. Q&A wasn't great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

Watch the video.

---

I watched the one Danny linked before and other videos where he talks about how the neo-nazis hate him, how he tried to drive them out of the EDL, how he left because he needed to distance himself from them, etc. I can see why it's superficially convincing alright.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

He also describes the absolute atrocities set out in the Rotherham report ie the systematic rape and abuse of 1400 girls by Muslim gangs. The Rochdale and other similar reports where Muslim gangs were targeting white girls for rape and abuse. He talks about the frustration of seeing cover ups and inaction by the authorities and how all of this perceived or real injustice sowed the seeds for the EDL across the U.K. Ultimately, he says he wants debate and discourse about these issues and for Muslims to fix these problems.

---

Just on these matters, the following study - 'Child Grooming and Sexual Exploitation: Are South Asian Men the UK Media’s New Folk Devils?' - in the International Journal of Crime, Justice and Social Democracy is of relevance: https://www.crimejusticejournal.com/...e/view/214/185

It concludes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aisha K Gill and Karen Harrison

The current moral panic about South Asian sex offenders, driven by British newspaper reporting, significantly affects public perception of the problem and of what policy responses are appropriate. Construing South Asian men as dangerous sex offenders harnesses the protective role of the British State as a reformed patriarchy seeking to rescue white women from deviant and abusive minority ethnic men.

All of the newspaper articles explored in this study underscored that the victims in the recent high‐profile cases of street grooming were white, while the majority of the perpetrators were of South Asian origin or descent. South Asian street grooming gangs received disproportionate coverage at the expense of other, similar cases involving mostly white perpetrators and/or ethnic minority victims. Skewed media reporting fuelled a moral panic linking ethnicity and child sexual exploitation. Over‐reporting cases of South Asian men as perpetrators of grooming and sexual exploitation of white girls overlooks broader statistics and socioeconomic factors such as poverty and neglect, which often lie at the root of sexual exploitation. Research by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (2011) about children who were groomed and sexually exploited by an offender they first met in a public place identified 1,217 offenders: 30 per cent were white, while 28 per cent were Asian (11 were Bangladeshi, 45 were Pakistani and 290 were described as ‘Asian Other’). Of their 2083 victims, 61 per cent were white, while just 3 per cent were Asian and 33 per cent were referred to as ‘other’. The report stressed that national conclusions about ethnicity cannot be drawn from the data, because much of the data came from a limited number of geographic areas (Cockbain and Brayley 2012). When the Office of the Children’s Commissioner published Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitationin Gangs and Groups the following year, it found that the vast majority of perpetrators were men, though a wide age‐range was uncovered: some offenders were as young as fourteen, while others were elderly. Critically, perpetrators and their victims were ethnically diverse. While some women’s groups in the UK have suggested that concern over South Asian sex offenders constitutes a ‘good’ moral panic, raising awareness to protect girls from abuse, many also recognise that it distorts public perception of the prevalence of the problemacross British society. More needs to be done to combat the full scope of child sexual exploitation and grooming cases, accounting for all potential perpetrators and victims. Raising moral outrage over this issue is a matter of priority, but should be achieved without recourse to racial stereotyping, helpful to no one lest future victims.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

Yep. Watched both. Q&A wasn't great.

---

Haven't seen them yet but I'll try get a watch when I have a chance.

I'm glad you've watched it but I'm surprised it didn't have more impact. It could be convincing because it's true, of course. Not sure what he has to gain from lying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Just on these matters, the following study - 'Child Grooming and Sexual Exploitation: Are South Asian Men the UK Media’s New Folk Devils?' - in the International Journal of Crime, Justice and Social Democracy is of relevance: https://www.crimejusticejournal.com/...e/view/214/185

It concludes:

---

You quote a lot of sources but very rarely claim a position on a lot of these things. These publications can make all the claims and speculation they want but it doesn't change what occurred in Rotherham etc and Muslim gangs, rape and human trafficking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

I'm glad you've watched it but I'm surprised it didn't have more impact. It could be convincing because it's true, of course. Not sure what he has to gain from lying.

---

I'm sorry, just repeat that to yourself. "Not sure what he has to gain from lying." How about, everything?