The 'Kenny Shiels is quite the interesting character' thread.

Don't get me wrong I wasn't necessarily having a go at Kenny, personally I prefer youth development as there's something special about seeing a kid go from in goal for a half time penalty shootout to saving a penalty against the league champions but I can also appreciate and admire the skill of taking players not wanted by the other top clubs and turning them into world beaters, just pointing out that while he has been successful at developing players they haven't been youth players as per Shiels' comments so that's a key point in the who's the best at youth development conversation.

It must be still difficult for Shamrock Rovers fans to see what has happened with the massive success Kenny had had at Dundalk when you think of what could have been.
I wonder why he got it so badly wrong there or were there factors beyond his control that led to his poor record?

At the time it was said that players wouldnt buy in to his expectations on strength and conditioning in particular. After 2 league titles players felt it wasnt broke so why fix it. Did the locking Kenny out of the changing room by the players at ht really happen?

He bought Kerra Gilbert, that in itself is a sackable offence. Being honest you do think what could have been but you can do that for anything, what if MON had stayed if the question I ask more, and you also think well would we have the training ground and academy, would we have seen the likes of Bazunu come through so there's pros and cons really.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Don't get me wrong I wasn't necessarily having a go at Kenny, personally I prefer youth development as there's something special about seeing a kid go from in goal for a half time penalty shootout to saving a penalty against the league champions but I can also appreciate and admire the skill of taking players not wanted by the other top clubs and turning them into world beaters, just pointing out that while he has been successful at developing players they haven't been youth players as per Shiels' comments so that's a key point in the who's the best at youth development conversation.

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Maybe Dundalk are more interested in winning titles than flogging one 16 year old for big money.
Youth development is the current ‘nirvana ‘ (or excuse) for some. Ironically it differs little from the schoolboy factories of older days (Kevin’s Home Farm, Joeys etc)
Kenny is a better manager than Shiels by any rational criteria and their respective records prove that. Keith Long among others has developed far more young players than Shiels but I doubt many would suggest he is a better manager than Kenny (yet 😁)

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Maybe Dundalk are more interested in winning titles than flogging one 16 year old for big money.
Youth development is the current ‘nirvana ‘ (or excuse) for some. Ironically it differs little from the schoolboy factories of older days (Kevin’s Home Farm, Joeys etc)
Kenny is a better manager than Shiels by any rational criteria and their respective records prove that. Keith Long among others has developed far more young players than Shiels but I doubt many would suggest he is a better manager than Kenny (yet 😁)

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Of course winning trophies is preferable, if you read what I said all I said was when it comes to players being developed at clubs I prefer to see the kid who's supported the club and been in the youth team for years come good than the journey man go from 3rd choice at a similar level club to a world beater.

It's not the "current nirvana" for some it's just something that every club that wants to progress and be sustainable needs think Busby babes, 60's Celtic, 70's Ajax, class of 92, Barcelona's circa 2011 teams and it's where Irish clubs have failed in the past so yes fans who can see their club trying to do something exciting that other clubs haven't tried in Ireland before get some pleasure from it.

It also differs hugely from the schoolboy factories in that players are being developed for the first team and not explicitly to be sold on. They are though like any other player in that if a "too good to turn down" offer comes in they'll be sold. The sale of Bazunu is no different to that of Burke, both were bought in to play for the first team not to make a quick buck.

Yes he is a better manager but that's not what was said, it was about youth development and you've confused that with management in general and development of non youth players.

Derry City have an outstanding record of developing young players over the last 10-15 years.

Shamrock Rovers have shown strong potential in the same area over the last 10-15 months.

Neither Kenny Shield nor Stephen Bradley are exclusively responsible

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

Neither Kenny Shield nor Stephen Bradley are exclusively responsible

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.....or, arguably, deserve much of the credit.

It could be reasonably claimed that both have actually failed miserably in their primary role with the respective first teams

Did you actually just make a comment to bring up a certain manager so that you could then reply to said comment to have a dig at that manager? What a sad sad life you must have.

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Originally Posted by dong

It must be still difficult for Shamrock Rovers fans to see what has happened with the massive success Kenny had had at Dundalk when you think of what could have been.

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I think that’s a fair observation / thought. I was thinking on any other examples of managers winning trophies at different clubs and there is a fair few in the modern times like Fenlon (Shels and Bohs) and McLaughlin (Dundalk, Rovers, Derry, Shels). However these were all examples of winning at previous club and repeating at new club.

I remember too well the shock when McLaughlin left Dundalk in 83 after winning 3 leagues and 3 cups to win a league straight away at Rovers in 84 then a double in 85, or maybe that was Keely’s first year. Keely also retuned to Dundalk to win a league in 95.

The move by Kenny being sacked by Rovers then moving to Dundalk the following year and currently on 4 titles, while in the same period Rovers only winning one trophy (League cup ?), that has to play on the mind of a lot of a Rovers fans.

Can anyone remember how far Rovers were behind in the league when they sacked him around Aug/Sept in 2012, was it def out of the question they would not retain the league?

Think it was about 13 points off sligo. He was sacked on the 11th of September and his last home league win was on the 18th of May.

The idea that if Kenny had stuck around at rovers success would follow is rubbish. Kenny has been successful and unsuccessful at different clubs. The current hero worship at dundalk is completely understandable. It will be interesting to see what happens when he leaves. Strong rumour that he is looking for a way out right now. If he leaves either now or later given his record with dundalk he may return in the future , will he be successful again? Who knows , luck with players hitting form and timing plays a part.
Dunfirmiline and rovers fans don't agree with dundalk fans but that's the way it goes. At the moment Kenny can do no wrong , that's just the way it is

That is just the way it goes, it didn’t work out for him at Rovers, I’ve no problems with that. He won’t be with Dundalk forever either, that’s obvious but he is contracted to end of 2020.

I think Kenny Sheils is walking a plank at Derry. The chairman calling him out on recruitment recently was bizarre and I think some of the statements he has made of late have been in a self justifying and defensive nature. I will be surprised if he is still there next season........st pats ?

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

It will be interesting to see what happens when he leaves. Strong rumour that he is looking for a way out right now.

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Strong rumour, really? This is the first I've heard of it. No talk amongst Dundalk fans, doesn't sound very strong

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Did you actually just make a comment to bring up a certain manager so that you could then reply to said comment to have a dig at that manager?

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No, I just don't trust the mobile edit feature - safer to add an additional comment.

But feel free to comment, if you disagree with what I said in either post

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

What a sad sad life you must have.

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Live is full of joy at the moment, and looking forward to Friday night's trophy presentation

Yeah I remember the night we won our 13th title, it was joyful alright , enjoy.

Just curious on that 13th title for Rovers, doing a mental tie back here, if you are on 17 now, was that one the last of the 4-in-a-row? back in 1987?

No the year before. Galway were second , u boys 3rd.
One of the great things about the 1899 suite/bar in Tallaght is the club get the likes of pat Byrne, Noel Larkin etc to come in and present jerseys player awards or just to talk regular enough. Every club should do that (I'm sure most do) the opportunity to meet your hero's from years ago is great. Without exception they have been fantastic speakers

Think Stephen Kenny would be mad to leave dundalk. He has a job for life there and has proven successful. I feel if he went anywhere else he would die on his ar$e, to be honest.
I heard talk of him for the Ireland job- I think the championship/lower division dog$hit players we currently have wearing the green shirt would laugh his methods out the door- it would say as much about them as him, in my view.

I can assure one and all that Rovers fans do not pine for the one that got away in Kenny, but the last proper manager we had (MON) and how he's continued his success with norn iron.

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Originally Posted by placid casual

Think Stephen Kenny would be mad to leave dundalk. He has a job for life there and has proven successful. I feel if he went anywhere else he would die on his ar$e, to be honest.
I heard talk of him for the Ireland job- I think the championship/lower division dog$hit players we currently have wearing the green shirt would laugh his methods out the door- it would say as much about them as him, in my view.

I can assure one and all that Rovers fans do not pine for the one that got away in Kenny, but the last proper manager we had (MON) and how he's continued his success with norn iron.

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The quality of wumming on this site is fickle.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

I think Kenny Sheils is walking a plank at Derry. The chairman calling him out on recruitment recently was bizarre and I think some of the statements he has made of late have been in a self justifying and defensive nature. I will be surprised if he is still there next season........st pats ?

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Huh ? What thought process led you there ? Can't see why we would be interested in Kenny Shields.

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Originally Posted by placid casual

Think Stephen Kenny would be mad to leave dundalk. He has a job for life there and has proven successful. I feel if he went anywhere else he would die on his ar$e, to be honest.
I heard talk of him for the Ireland job- I think the championship/lower division dog$hit players we currently have wearing the green shirt would laugh his methods out the door- it would say as much about them as him, in my view.

I can assure one and all that Rovers fans do not pine for the one that got away in Kenny, but the last proper manager we had (MON) and how he's continued his success with norn iron.

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Wasnt that one of the issues with Kenny's time at Rovers? Not intending to be smart, its a genuine question! I just recall the talk on here and other fora at the time that the core of MO'Ns players being resistant to changes SK wanted to make, system used, general tactics, match prep, longer training and 2 sessions on Saturdays added and so on. Now every time this is mentioned the reply has been a sort of deflection in commenting on poor player recruitment (which is a valid issue) rather than answering the actual question raised. The way SK is and the level of detail he delves in to for preparing his teams, the expectation he has for players to buy in to his ways, it was always going to take considerable time. Maybe he was changing too much too quickly for reigning champions, he was on a hiding to nothing with being in the shadow if the previous manager, If he wanted his own players he was moving on club legends, if club legends were not doing what he wanted he was dropping them which wasnt popular added to not getting results with those players that are not being fully committed to the new ways. The bord seemed to back player power than the manager and no doubt the board were keeping fans favourites sweet and by extendion those fans. This all had longer term ramifications in the firing and hiring of the next 3 or 4 managers - Croly got a very long time after Kenny was fired quickly, they also should not have let Fenlon have the time he got. The club seems committed to Bradley as they dont want to be a high managerial turnover club

I really dont care about SK's time in Tallaght, and I have no desire to try and get Rovers fans to say what could have been ie admitting to a jealusy of sorts as much as regretting his early removal. I really am just interested on know how much of the difficulty the team was going through was down to mismanagement, and how much was down to certain cliques withing the playing squad not allowing change or allow Kenny the chance to coach his way. I will mention it again in hope for clarification - was SK locked out of the dressingroom by players? He lost the dressingroom maybe but hard to lose if you never had it in the first place?

No matter what the issues were they benefitted Dundalk - we wouldnt have been able to afford his wages only that as he was still being paid (off) by Rovers he was willing to considder a lower offer from Dundalk, basically the balance that took his wages to the level before sacking (after he'd agreed a reduced payoff so as to release him to take the Dundalk job. In his first year at Dundalk rovers pay(off) subsidised Dundalk's terms.

Kenny was unsuccessful at rovers like at other clubs he left, he has done well for dundalk , might or might no t be successful in the future. The reason he was fired at rovers was the same as at dunfirmiline the club didn't think he was the right man just like some of the other clubs he left. I don't know about the lock out, I think it's an urban legend. I'd say the players and Kenny were both responsible, rarely one side right or wrong.

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Originally Posted by TonyD

Huh ? What thought process led you there ? Can't see why we would be interested in Kenny Shields.

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He is a bit of an enigma. I think he is a decent manager he just comes across very poorly sometimes.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Of course winning trophies is preferable, if you read what I said all I said was when it comes to players being developed at clubs I prefer to see the kid who's supported the club and been in the youth team for years come good than the journey man go from 3rd choice at a similar level club to a world beater.

It's not the "current nirvana" for some it's just something that every club that wants to progress and be sustainable needs think Busby babes, 60's Celtic, 70's Ajax, class of 92, Barcelona's circa 2011 teams and it's where Irish clubs have failed in the past so yes fans who can see their club trying to do something exciting that other clubs haven't tried in Ireland before get some pleasure from it.

It also differs hugely from the schoolboy factories in that players are being developed for the first team and not explicitly to be sold on. They are though like any other player in that if a "too good to turn down" offer comes in they'll be sold. The sale of Bazunu is no different to that of Burke, both were bought in to play for the first team not to make a quick buck.

Yes he is a better manager but that's not what was said, it was about youth development and you've confused that with management in general and development of non youth players.

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Shams hoovering up of any decent schoolboy players is similar to Bray of a few years back - all of the players they “developed” were outstanding at other schoolboy clubs before going to shams.
A “too good to refuse offer’ can be anything - especially as the performance indicator appears to be players sold (Burke and Bazunu the ones regularly quoted).
Outbidding other schoolboy clubs is neither new or innovative but does cover up a lack of progress at senior level.

Lol you have us sussed.
It was never a penalty btw :)

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Kenny was unsuccessful at rovers like at other clubs he left, he has done well for dundalk , might or might no t be successful in the future. The reason he was fired at rovers was the same as at dunfirmiline the club didn't think he was the right man just like some of the other clubs he left. I don't know about the lock out, I think it's an urban legend. I'd say the players and Kenny were both responsible, rarely one side right or wrong.

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Left eventually after becoming the coach they didnt think was right but not really like what happened at rovers;
Longford, promoted for the first time ever, got to a cup final and qualified for Europe. There 3 years but headgunted by
Bohs-Fai Cup final and steared them away from relegartion yr 1. Yr 2 League title and runners up yr3. Sacked while in 3rd place 3 months in to year 4.
2004 took Derry from relegartion fodder to title runners up. Beat Gothenburg, Gretna, and drew 1 leg with PSG. Legue runner up on GD and Cup winners, 2 league cups
2006 took Dunfermline to a SFA Cup Final and from 10 points adrift to witin a result of safety. Scottish Challange cup success after relegation but was eventually sacked.
Promotion at first time of asking back with Derry.
Rovers.....
Dundalk, 4 leagues 1double, 2 EA Sports Cups, Grouple stages of Europa League.

So Rovers is the only disaster. Ye cant really say he was the wrong man in the jobs even at Dunfermline. His second year didnt go well but not a total disaster and he could have turned it around. He say himself that he was young and made mistakes in Scotland

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Shams hoovering up of any decent schoolboy players is similar to Bray of a few years back - all of the players they “developed” were outstanding at other schoolboy clubs before going to shams.
A “too good to refuse offer’ can be anything - especially as the performance indicator appears to be players sold (Burke and Bazunu the ones regularly quoted).
Outbidding other schoolboy clubs is neither new or innovative but does cover up a lack of progress at senior level.

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Usually involves kitchen sinks be thrown at the player. Rovers have a few to offer now with farming out youths abroad ;p

That's one version of history and not entirely inaccurate. But he was fired from dunfirmiline because they lost faith same at rovers and I'd say elsewhere but nobody is saying (Well no one sensible) that has not a good manager just success is transitory, illusive and entirely unpredictable. He's a success at dundalk he may move and be a disaster in his next job...or a success. Who knows.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Usually involves kitchen sinks be thrown at the player. Rovers have a few to offer now with farming out youths abroad ;p

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Lol another one at it. Schoolboy clubs farm kids out. Rovers sell one professional player to Manchester city and the player gets a decent contract to match unlike the 150quid a week at Stevenage and the likes that Kevin's and joeys are happy with. Credit where it's due boys rovers have invested more than any other club in their academy, have a bit of perspective.

I can acknowledge Kenny is a good msnager and bohs serve good craft beer. Everything about rovers isnt negative.

Stephen Kenny could win the league for Dundalk in 2019 and 2020 to make it 6 titles in his 8 years at DFC and Rovers fans will still never admit it would be a case of 'what could have been' so this is a pointless discussion to continue. Pat Fenlon won multiple LOI titles but he also didn't win anything at Rovers, I wouldn't be looking at the managers in these cases, I'd be looking at the club.

It's obvious Rovers fans don't have much time for Kenny, and that's fine, but I think it's wrong not to acknowledge his achievements at other clubs and currently. I'll balance this by saying I always think Caulfield could play better football at Cork, and that's just my opinion, but this guy is no mug, he's won 1 league and 2 cups, so he has to be considered a decent manager especially where he took Cork from (mid table) and where he came from (non league).

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Credit where it's due boys rovers have invested more than any other club in their academy, have a bit of perspective.

I can acknowledge Kenny is a good msnager and bohs serve good craft beer. Everything about rovers isnt negative.

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Rovers do deserve credit for the extent of the academy investment. The sale of Bazunu is a good start on a possible return on that investment, but the jury is still out.

I genuinely don't see your issue if he had stayed on at dunfirmiline instead of being fired maybe they would have won a load of stuff, if he'd stayed at rovers instead of being fired maybe rovers would have won loads , no one will ever know. If he'd stayed at Derry maybe they would be top of the league. One thing has no 'relation to the other. Because Kenny has won 4 in 5 some people think he is infallible.

He is an excellent manager on a remarkable run.....Why are u so worried about the club's he was fired from?

Actually maybe better then focussing on the club's he was fired from the point that success at dunfirmiline or rovers would not neccessarily have come with multiple league titles if he hadnt been fired is better illustrated by saying how come he didn't win multiple league titles at the other clubs , Derry etc? Again ....for the sensitive dundalk supporters that doesn't mean I don't think he is not az very good manager it is just that nobody guarantees success.
Btw I personally don't have anything against him or Fenlon or crolly, I'm sure everyone of them tried there best which is asll u can ask

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

Rovers do deserve credit for the extent of the academy investment. The sale of Bazunu is a good start on a possible return on that investment, but the jury is still out.

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Agreed ez. the jury is still out, the older membership who elect the board are behind the investment but some of the younger fans would rather see all the money go into the first team. As an older fan myself I can see the value in trying to invest in kids but for some people even a few years without a trophy seems like a lifetime

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Agreed ez. the jury is still out, the older membership who elect the board are behind the investment but some of the younger fans would rather see all the money go into the first team. As an older fan myself I can see the value in trying to invest in kids but for some people even a few years without a trophy seems like a lifetime

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Disagree- lots of older Members are underwhelmed not by the investment in the youth set up, but by the balls ups made by the Board since 2011, then they had everything in place and managed to blow it - the current strategy will most likely work , just a pity they screwed up the golden opportunity they had in 2011 and set us back for a few years , but as ever the natural state will return as it always has over the last 100 years

If the majority of members were unhappy the entire board wouldn't have been re-elected a couple of weeks ago. But your right natural order will be restored sooner rather than later I hope :)

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

If the majority of members were unhappy the entire board wouldn't have been re-elected a couple of weeks ago. But your right natural order will be restored sooner rather than later I hope :)

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Note the use of the word lots not majority- plus many of those not in agreement with the board are amongst the approx 100 Members who have cancelled their membership over the last few years.

How many members are there now?