Yeah,I believe soQuote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
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Yeah,I believe soQuote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
Scored a hatrick to prevent Sligo from nearly being relegated
While I think it's universally accepted that 95% of National League players are not up to International football, I believe the very best players (the obvious ones), are certainly good enough to make the squads, and even play more than 1 minute in friendlies, and if not, France and Switzerland, certainly against the likes of Cyprus, Andorra, and Faroe Islands.
Only about half of the current squad play regularly at club level in England. The rest play in lower leagues, often with little security at bankrupt clubs, don't have much experience, are injury prone or unfit, and/or don't get their game at club level. Yet Brian, like previous bosses before him, has a bias against the NL, and won't pick our leagues' players for love nor money. Then when the English lower league players screw things up in a game, he whinges that we don't have a big enough pool of players to choose from, which is laughable. He has the best of an entire league willing and able to play for him, but refuses to play them. The best NL players also have a limited amount of European experience, which is more than can be said for the likes of Alan Lee, Gary Breen, and Graham Barrett, who can never play in Europe for their clubs.
Who is the better striker? Jason Byrne, or consistent failure, David Connolly?
Who is the better defender? Colin Hawkins, or out-of form, unwanted at club, John O'Shea?
There's no harm in playing our league's best players in friendlies, and at least, giving them a go. In fairness, they're the only players who want to play in friendlies these days!! If they play badly, the result doesn't matter.
Just resorting to English-based players for all games, limits our options, when we have a whole league of players to choose from for friendlies, and competitive games against really poor teams. They're more motivated, would increase the NL profile, and they should be allowed a window of opportunity in those games to show what they can do.
Mypost
Spot on. The only question mark over some eL players might be the fitness of the better part-time professionals. There are a larger number of full-time professional players in the eL now than at any time in the history of domestic football in this state. This is reflected in the improved results recently in Europe over the 1990's for example.
[QUOTE=mypost]
Who is the better defender? Colin Hawkins, or out-of form, unwanted at club, John O'Shea?
QUOTE]
I couldn't compare Colin Hawkins to John O'Shea in fairness!!
That'd be the only part of that post I'd disagree with, O'Shea is clearly on a different planet to Hawkins but otherwise I agree completley.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Perhaps not Colin Hawkins, but you get my point, which is that there are players playing in our league who are better than what we can find in England, and we can play them in games against very poor teams and friendlies, to give them a window of opportunity. The English-based players, and their clubs don't want them playing friendlies, so why not play the best that we have here? They are fit, full-time, willing, available, and against certain teams, good enough to play in competitive games.
Next June, we have 2 vital qualifiers against Israel, and the Faroes. They are banana skins, where the squad will be tired after a long English season, and who will find it difficult to stay fit, after a couple of weeks break from the game. Are you serious to say the NL's best players can't compete against the Faroes??? They would be fit, in-form, available, and ready to bring home the three points.
Brian whinging that we have a limited playing pool is ludicrous. We have an entire league of players to choose from, the best of which are available on tap to play for us. Give them a chance.
That is a superb point. When we play the Faroes the players will be at the end of a tireing season and most of them probably wont be fully fit and fully motivated. The EL players would be fully fit, would play out of their skins if given the chance as they'd see it as an amazing oppurtunity and are clearly easily good enough to handle the Faroes team.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
mypost, well said. two excellent posts.
myposts claim regarding the squad deserves analysis - who is playing on a regular basis here is the last squad called up by kerr.
Republic of Ireland squad: Given (Newcastle), Colgan (Barnsley), Kenny (Sheffield United), Maybury (Hearts), Finnan (Liverpool), Cunningham (Birmingham), Carr (Newcastle), O’Brien (Newcastle), Doherty (Norwich), Dunne (Manchester City), Breen (Sunderland), Holland (Charlton), O’Shea (Manchester United), Miller (Manchester United), Kilbane (Everton), Reid (Nottingham Forest), Kavanagh (Cardiff), Quinn (Sheffield United), Barrett (Coventry), McGeady (Celtic), Duff (Chelsea), Lee (Cardiff), Macken (Manchester City), Elliott (Sunderland), Keane (Tottenham).
"
playing regulary at div 1 or prem level has to be acceptable surely.
goalies: given, (obvious) kenny - surely no complaints there. colgan (odd choice, surely stack would be better but he's in no danger of playing really)
2 of 3 ok choices so far
defenders:
Maybury (Hearts), ahem- playing regularly in sweatyland
Finnan (Liverpool), been a league regular for the last 10 games or so
Cunningham (Birmingham),
Carr (Newcastle), injured was regular
O’Brien (Newcastle), injured- straight back in to replace titus
Doherty (Norwich), injured for a while -played last 3 games(badly)
Dunne (Manchester City), regular- good season apart from today.
Breen (Sunderland), regular
O'shea - essentially dropped for most games.
with the exception of O'shea the rest are all regulars at prem or div 1 standard and except for maybury, no irish based player would really come close. hawkins? awful season. no div one player he.
7/9 for defenders maybury and o'shea (who is been kept out by heinz ffs)
Midfielders:
Holland (Charlton), regular
Miller (Manchester United), AWOL
Kilbane (Everton), reg
Reid (Nottingham Forest), reg
Kavanagh (Cardiff), reg
Quinn (Sheffield United), reg
Barrett (Coventry), sporadic at best
gotta give 5/7 on midfielders but miller looks good enough long term and would play at many other clubs. barret is another story.
strikers
McGeady (Celtic), was on bench for ages. now starts
Duff (Chelsea),
Lee (Cardiff), regular - crap season though
Macken (Manchester City), ahem
Elliott (Sunderland), squad rotation. club leading scorer I think
Keane (Tottenham). squad rotation
5/6 here -
so the only players not getting their game at all are macken, o'shea and miller.
barret has played in 70% of coventry's games. doherty was injured a fair bit but not always. he's still appeared in 11 prem games this season. (50%)
in actuality of the last squad 21 play all the time for their clubs. If you want to call div 1 a lower league which it is but still superior to EL btw then, yes it's exactly half with 12 players regualryl getting their game in the English prem (not counting RMK)Quote:
Only about half of the current squad play regularly at club level in England. The rest play in lower leagues, often with little security at bankrupt clubs, don't have much experience, are injury prone or unfit, and/or don't get their game at club level
I don't know what bankrupt clubs has to do with anything. none are bankrupt AFAIK although many of them have the typical financial problems of many teams in england, almost all have debt of some kind. sunderland are doing quite well now mind you.
experience? by my count only mcgeady and elliot are novices at club level the rest are easily in the 100+ game club. As for international experience, well I don't see how that is a massive point against them as it's the same for domestic based players.
injury prone: who are you on about with this 'point'? any stats regarding people being more or less injury prone than others?
bottom line: the irish squad with the exception maybury, macken and colgan is fairly justified. o'shea and miller would be starters anywhere else except chelsea and arsenal.
even maybury could be replaced with harte, colgan with stack and macken with morrison and we'd still be no nearer an EL player. All of this without counting RMK.
I do agree however the odd 25 minutes for the likes of doyle would be fabulous. playing against the faores though is too much of a risk.
No point in mentioning Stack till his fate before the English Court system is known. Not making any judgements whatever the verdict as this is the country which produced the injustices of the Birmingham Six , Guildford Four and Judith Ward. And that is just the three I can remember at the moment. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamo kerry
Have to agree 100% with dynamo kerry's post. Only post to really put head over heart and actually analyse things properly. Can possibly add in Stephen Reid (plays regularly for Blackburn when not injured), Colin Healy (ditto for Sunderland), Rory Delap (Southampton), Alan Quinn (Sheff United) and there's probably a couple of others.
Realistic, but true, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamo kerry
just to make another few points about the irish squad.
the team that starts usually would be(roughly)
given
carr
cunningham
o'brien
finnan/o'shea/maybury
Holland/kilbane
Keane
Duff
Reid
Keane
Morrison
Nearly All prem players. all getting their game except o'shea and he's not even really first choice at LB anymore. If Reid isn't a prem player by Jan 29th I'll eat my snowboard. We only get into the div one lads when you start looking at barrett for RW but stephen reids return to form nixes that and after that you're talking about stephen elliot in as striker - gotta be third choice now(deservedly so). The rest are not going to get a competitve game really but are stil better than all but maybe half a dozen players in the EL
speaking of which, the same few names keep popping up all the time. Heary, Doyle, Byrne, Crowe, thats pretty much it. If anyone mentions John O'Flynn after the season he's just had I'll be laughing all the way home. On these 4 or 5 names people say the league is worth seriously looking at? Maybe if there were 20 or even 10 names. There aren't you know.
ps and another thing for those of you who wish it was an 'irish' team. stick kilbane in for holland and all that leaves you to complain about is morrison. Not half bad. Also, the English FA didn't build all those teams in england into the powerhouses they are. the clubs themselves did due to the large support they have in large urban centres. the EL isn't small simply because the FAI are gob****es, history, economics and GAA are also massive factors. Keep crying the beal bocht though, it's massively entertaining.
The LOI's time will come but one has to wonder will it ever be at a point where clubs will have attendances in the 20K range which surely must be necessary in order to pay the wages to have top players. The TV money will never be there in the same way as in england or even scotland so attendances wil lhave to rise in order to move things on in a big way. There's no point being biter about it, only alienates people dunnit?
At a PC somewhere in the Levante training ground Ian Harte has probably collapsed in a heep of cynical, jaded laughter...Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkfeckarse
Maybe something to do with the gallons of drink I've had over the last few days but I haven't a clue what your point is there SLK.......
Well competing in what I think is officially Europe's top-rated league doesn't seem to have done Mr.Harte's career much good has it?Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkfeckarse
Yeah but he was outta the picture in the Premiership too so it's hardly relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
My point was about EL players going to a higher league to see if they can cut it not players moving between them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
fair enough. but at least I clarified what I was judging all of that on. They are stats in essence as the original statement was that people weren't getting their game full stop or that clubs financial irregularities have a bearing.
I don't think you can ignore what a player has against him every week if you want to say how good he is. There are lads in div 2 who look fabulous and have great seasons and are technically great but who won't cut it at a higher level. It's the old argument that players need to be playing against a decent level week in week out. Fact is in the LOI, only a few times a season are the good players facing good players. It's a lot more common in the english first division.
by your logic, some lad playing in the kerry district league who scores 50 goals should get a call up. an extreme example but either you need to expand on your thinking or I'm picking you up wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamo kerry
Well said.
Yet Kerr has said he can pick Maybury based on Hearts European form, which is apparently far superior (read one round better) than anyones in the EL, if it was just about the players he faces week in week our Kerr wouldn't have made the distinction between the old firm, Hearts and the rest, they'd all be pretty much equal.Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamo kerry
Kerr has also given more time to English second division players, or league one or whatever it is, than he has to domestic players. Not even someone who was standing out at that level either.
You're not seriously going to suggest the opposite, are you? :rolleyes: :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
You mean yer man the winger at QPR? (Can't remember his name) Wasn't he only in the end-of-season games with Nigeria, Jamaica and Holland? And didn't Kerr say that he would have called up two or three eL players for that squad (O'Flynn, Crowe and Byrne were mentioned, I think) only that it would have involved their respective clubs missing them for important matches?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
Rangers and Celtic have played CL group stages in the past few years, while the others haven't, which is why he made the distinction. Going out of his way to accommodate Maybury is strange, I will admit, though even then, he got to face Basel, Ferencvaros, Stuttgart(?) and some other team in what was an average European campaign for a decent (i.e. not Dunfermline or Livingston or the likes) Scottish team, whereas Shels' was the best ever eL campaign by far. Maybe if they can do it more regularly, things will change. Until then, I think the eL clubs have to work to get their players to that level rather than giving out if their players aren't chosen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
Him and Alan Quinn was making mid season friendlys while playing for Wednesday, and he got more than a token two minutes and that's your lot kind of chance too. And that EL summer thing is a load of rubbish imo, the clubs would have been delighted to lose them for a week or so mid season to see them get a few caps, it boosts the profile of the club and if they ever want to sell the player that adds alot of value to the transfer fee. It also makes players more likely to come to the clubs if they can make international squads.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Well he never mentioned consistency, you mean if Shels repeat this performance next year suddenly we'll have players in contention for the international team? I doubt it. Shels faced better teams than those ones this season anyway.Quote:
Rangers and Celtic have played CL group stages in the past few years, while the others haven't, which is why he made the distinction. Going out of his way to accommodate Maybury is strange, I will admit, though even then, he got to face Basel, Ferencvaros, Stuttgart(?) and some other team in what was an average European campaign for a decent (i.e. not Dunfermline or Livingston or the likes) Scottish team, whereas Shels' was the best ever eL campaign by far. Maybe if they can do it more regularly, things will change. Until then, I think the eL clubs have to work to get their players to that level rather than giving out if their players aren't chosen.
Actually bankrupt (or near bankrupt) clubs has a lot to do with it. Many of the lower division players are with clubs in serious financial trouble, of which several are on relatively short-term contracts. When it comes to the end of the season, those clubs will sell or release many of those players, which may include members of our squad, as has happened before. They will then be free to move to other clubs, who won't take them, because they too, are in serious financial trouble. So said player has no club, can't play, isn't fit, but is apparantly still good enough to play top class international football for Brian Kerr, because he claims we have nobody else. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamo kerry
The classic case of this is Ian Harte who Leeds had to sell, because of their relegation and financial problems. Ian's gone to play regularly in the top league in Europe, but because he's not playing in England, Kerr doesn't want to know about him.
As for experience, how many of this crop have played in Europe for their clubs? Cunningham, Doherty, Breen, Kilbane, Quinn, Barrett, Connolly, and Macken.
Despite having almost zero experience of playing in Europe for their clubs, these players are apparantly still good enough to play top class international football for Brian Kerr, up against the best the world can throw at us. The NL's best players have several years of experience (however limited) of European games, against decent teams.
During the summer internationals last summer, when there were many withdrawals in our squad leaving the squad wafer thin, Brian refused to name replacements. Our league's fit, motivated, full-time professionals who would have travelled to the friendlies at a phone call's notice, were not called upon to provide back-up to the squad.
I still find it hard to believe that the best players in our league cannot be considered to play against the awful Faroe Islands, or make the squad. They would be more motivated, less tired, eager to make a good impression, and boost the goal difference.
Brian's attitude (with 2 exceptions) is that if you don't play in England, you can't play for your country. If our best players went to England, he'd be after them within a couple of months. It's not that we don't have the players, it's that Brian just doesn't want to play players who are unfamiliar to him.
Really? Cork were very quick to whinge when they lost John O'Flynn to the U-21 squad earlier this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Really? Hearts have played Braga of Portugal, Feyernoord, Schalke, Basel and Ferencvaros. Shels have played Depor (fair enough), Hadjuk Split, Lille and KR Reykjavik. Apart from Depor, Hearts have the advantage (ask Celtic and Liverpool about Basel!) and haven't played anyone as poor as KR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
Don't understand your logic here at all. All players are going to get released because their club is broke, but won't find another club because they're all broke too? If a player is good enough, he'll find another club. If not, he's not going to be in contention for the Ireland team anyway. So it doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Very limited. Very, very limited. Losing to Levadia Tallinn and FC Vaduz doesn't augur well for playing international football. Doesn't compensate for playing in a better league (i.e. English Division One or Premiership). Remember, Shels' run this year was the best ever - it's never happened before. Before this year, the best we'd played was Rosenborg and been beaten comprehensively twice. Not good enough to play international football.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Is your list the players who haven't played European football? Connolly played Champions' League for Feyernoord - was a lone forward when they played in Old Trafford. Kilbane may well be there by next season! :eek: But eL players playing Icelandic or Estonian - or even Croatian or Norweigan - teams still doesn't bridge the gap to playing Premiership football.
I have to agree with dynamo kerry on the Faroes game - that's a potential banana skin - ask Scotland, Slovenia or Germany, among others, and is not thetime to be playing eL players just to pander to the league. It's a time for being clinical and getting three points without any fuss.
Nonsense. How many eL players has Kerr had in his various youth squads? I can think of Clive Delaney, Aidan Lynch and Glen Fitzpatrick from UCD alone. Kerr is very familiar with eL players, and if he reckons they aren't good enough for international football, who are we to argue?Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Why hasn't Brian Kerr been to Turners Cross this year?
There's a world of difference between the u21s and the senior team.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Lille won their group and are challanging for the French league, one of Europes best (Two European cup finalalists last year). They're better than any of those sides bar maybe Schalke.Quote:
Really? Hearts have played Braga of Portugal, Feyernoord, Schalke, Basel and Ferencvaros. Shels have played Depor (fair enough), Hadjuk Split, Lille and KR Reykjavik. Apart from Depor, Hearts have the advantage (ask Celtic and Liverpool about Basel!) and haven't played anyone as poor as KR.
Maybe, but I'd say they'd still whinge. Club before country and all that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
What about FC Basel? CL Second Group phase two years ago - knocking out Liverpool and Celtic, drawing with Juve and Man Utd - very handy team. Hearts didn't face anyone near as poor as KR - whom Shels didn't even beat - or even as poor as Split. Schalke didn't even win their group - Feyernoord did, and so must be considered at least as good as Schalke, and so as good as Lille. I still think Hearts played a better calibre than Shels, even before you consider Rangers and Celtic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
Anyway, I agree about Maybury not contributing much to the Ireland squad, so I'm not going to get into an argument about whether Shels' or Hearts' run was better. But if the best the eL can muster is that they may have one player who might be better than Maybury, then they can't really complain about not having any players being capped.
Are you sure he hasn't been? Lot of people at Cork games - very easy to miss him. Has he been to any Cork away matches? Would surely be just as good. I've often seen him at Belfield and Tolka, so he can't be said to be ignoring the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by harry crumb
Yeah he was at Belfield the day John O'Flynn got a hat-trick 2 years ago. i dont think he has been to Cork though.
I don't see that logic. If Heary is better than Maybury then he should be in ahead of him, weather anyone else is good enough or not isn't really the issue in that situation. And I'd have Jason Byrne at least getting a run out in friendlys as it goes anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
That basel was a few years ago, they're not the same team now, if they were they wouldn't be in the UEFA cup. Shels "didn't even beat" KR is a load of rubbish, we knocked them out, do you think they care they drew with us twice and finished unbeaten in Europe? We played them and we beat them on away goals.Quote:
What about FC Basel? CL Second Group phase two years ago - knocking out Liverpool and Celtic, drawing with Juve and Man Utd - very handy team. Hearts didn't face anyone near as poor as KR - whom Shels didn't even beat - or even as poor as Split. Schalke didn't even win their group - Feyernoord did, and so must be considered at least as good as Schalke, and so as good as Lille. I still think Hearts played a better calibre than Shels, even before you consider Rangers and Celtic.
By your own logic Deportivo are better than anyone Hearts played and so are Lille with the exception of Feyenoord who are their equals. Not a world of different then, and Hadjuk Split are not a bad side, they were also in the CL group stage at one stage and had a many internationals including a player just back from Euro 2004.
Ahem... Germany, and Scotland's experiences against the Faroes is precisely why I believe the NL's best players should be considered for the game. The Faroes played Germany in June, at the same time we have to play them next year. Germany's star players who finished second in the World Cup, struggled to beat them because their players were not up for it, and/or tired at the end of their long league seasons. They won with 2 late goals.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
As for Scotland, they played them at the beginning of the season, when their players were also not match-fit, and were lacking motivation for their game. They escaped with a draw, after being 2 down early on. Do you think our English-based players will be fully focussed on the game, bar Roy Keane? They will be tired after a very long English season, and may not approach the game properly, especially after playing against Israel the previous weekend. Our league's best players are far better than what the Faroes have, will be fit, up for it, and eager to get the job done.
With respect, the NL players who have been selected in the past, didn't lose to Vaduz. Like I said before, if those players went to a lower league English club tomorrow, Brian would be calling them up to play for Ireland sharpish. Why the difference? They're still the same players with a lower division club in England, than when they were playing here.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
If you take out Celtic and Rangers, the Scottish league is the same standard as the NL Premier Division. The crowds in Scotland are generally poor, one club plays on a plastic pitch, the clubs are in a mess, amid general disinterest from the public. Minus Celtic and Rangers, Scottish clubs played poorly in Europe this season. Hearts failed to qualify out of their UEFA Cup group, and Dunfermline went out to a side from Iceland at home!! Even Shels didn't manage that!! All Scottish clubs, like Ireland's, were out of Europe by Christmas.
I didn't say he was better. I only said he may possibly be better. Obviously if he's a better player, he should get in. If not, he shouldn't. That's Kerr's job to decide. Maybe his reasoning wasn't the best - even what we wanted to hear - but he's given plenty of eL players chances at every level he's had, and I don't see why he should be said to have a grudge against eL players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
There's no point giving Byrne a run-out in friendlies if he isn't going to be considered for the main squad. Who would you drop from dynamo kerry's squad list? Bearing in mind that the likes of Elliott and Flood are now coming through at a higher level. Byrne flopped in Europe and I honestly don't think he's good enough for international football at this moment. I'd love to see it, but I'd prefer to see the team winning rather than picking eL players for the sake of it.
That Basel was two years ago (2002/03 season). This year's team lost to Inter in the third qualifying round for the CL, drawing at home. Inter subsequently walked their group, dropping only two points. Basel are a much better side than you're giving them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
Shels drew twice with KR. That's good enough for the European Cup - and fair dues - but we need to win World Cup qualifiers, not draw them. Consequently, we need players who can show they can help beat international teams. Drawing twice with KR isn't going to show that.
Split qualified for the group stages once, back in 1994. The Croatian league isn't great - Rijeka lost to Pat's as well a couple of years back. Hearts had tougher opponents, before you look at them playing Rangers and Celtic every six weeks, and playing Livingston and Dunfermline instead of Dublin City. Maybury regularly plays against a better standard of player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
No he wouldn't. He expressly said that he wouldn't consider any player from English Division Two or lower for the exact same reason. Most people will argue that the eL is Division Two or so standard. So what's the problem there? He's being perfectly consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Don't agree with you on the Faroes either. I agree that the eL players would have an advantage being in the middle of their season, but there's far too much to lose. Kerr'll have the players very well prepared as always, they'll be focussed as always and I don't think throwing someone in for their debut is going to improve the team from having Premier and Division One players.
Spot on, Sheridan. The single worst thing Kerr did in this statement, IMO, is the way he wrote off the chances of players who made the Irish U-21 side, despite being up against the lads who came through the development academies of the big cross-channel clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
I have a next door neighbour who is a decent underage footballer. His da allowed him go over to Aston Villa youths section from where he may graduate to play senior football. If that lad does make it, does that mean Kerr will favour him over, say, Kevin Doyle, based on the assumption that he could not be that good if he ONLY plays in the EL? :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: