Poland 2-1 Ireland: Left-sided defensive weakness and absence of Hoolahan guile condemns Irish to playoff
I agree with Cymro that the criticism is overly harsh. We were playing, days after an emotional victory, away in a noisy cauldron of a stadium against a team who were so obviously up for it and who have probably the world's best striker at this particular moment.
Also, when Brady has a dead-ball off-day it's, well it's a disaster really. Keogh getting that free header showed they would have been vulnerable if Brady had his usual deliveries. I hope MON has learned from the two games and jettisons Whelan. McCarthy was much better once he was gone.
I wouldn't fancy drawing us in the play-offs, I gotta say.
All those factors have nothing to do with how poor our performance was. The noise, the team being up for it, the emotion.
We couldn't control the ball for the first 50 mins.we were second to evertyhting and they always seem to have an out. Everything that we could control, that was within our control,we didn't and couldn't control. Forget all the other external factors gotta look introspectively first and we were just very poor. 1 header. On any other day that game was a 2 - 0 loss and probably more because at that point we would just collapse and probably be exposed at the back as we chased 2 goals.
Game was very tense. Nerves were wrecked. Ultimately, it was terribly disappointing though. We were all over the place and created absolutely nothing, bar Keogh's header, when we really needed to go all out for a goal. It was all very frantic. We looked exposed and disorganised. Not sure I fancy us making it through the play-offs. We just lack a consistent cutting edge, if we have a cutting edge at all.
Lewandowski was very cynical (or clever; whatever one wishes to call it) all game - worst I've seen since Dudu Aouate - but that's how FIFA/refs allow the modern game to be played and we weren't up to dealing with it. It was terribly frustrating to watch, though. McCarthy was visibly seething with him. Not that it cost us the game - we were the cause of our own downfall - but it would be nice to see the authorities make a proper effort to stamp that crap out.
Polish fans created a great atmosphere. Was a cauldron of noise and I'm sure it aided their team and ensured our players didn't feel too comfortable. A lot of our players played poorly. Did they buckle under the pressure? There were definite signs of tiredness after Germany as well, although we should remember that Poland played on Thursday nigth too and had to travel back to Warsaw from Glasgow.
Overall though, disheartening. Onto the dreaded play-offs we go... Bah!
I was wondering about this, mind you I have only seen the game on a stream where it is hard to identify players,Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanOB
however I think we would have been better off with Ward at left back and Brady on the wing.
Indeed I would have played the team which beat Germany, I bet Poland were delighted to see us change it!!!
That team would have had a certain 'fear factor' which would have helped up and would bring
the confidence and experience of that win with it.
So a blunder by O'Neil imo.
That was the reality check we had coming after the euphoria of Thursday. I thought we looked tired from the first whistle, to be honest. Poland took the game to us and, while they were no great shakes, were better than us. And they have the best striker currently playing the game, which ultimately proved the difference. Five changes showed that we're still a long way from having the squad we need to compete at this level, but we have a play-off and we'll see what happens. O'Shea and Walters big losses for the first leg, though O'Shea in particular was poor all game.
Ward wasn't on the bench as far as I know, due to the injury he picked up against Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by tricky_colour
I know last nights performance was poor and an opportunity missed which we may prove to regret. However, I want to note the over the top negativity from the rte panel. Is it any wonder the general public has a low opinion of the team.
Considering we just beat the world champions in our last game, the negativity and particularly Dunphy ranting prior to kick off was a joke. Overly focused on the Houlihan omission. Little technical analysis or insight.
I'm not asking for cheerleaders but we deserve better than this old drivel and constant negativity.
smallish point but dunphy kept referring to hoolahan being left out v Scotland away but conveniently ignores the fact that wes was injured for that game. he also said Holland were in the play off teams when their participation is unlikely at this stageQuote:
Originally Posted by elroy
After coming back from the game in Cardiff that was a bit of a come down. I thought we were gonna snatch a 2-2 draw at the death.
MO'N picked the wrong team last night. He had got the perfect combination in midfield against Germany but went back to the old tried and trusted (but ultimately) unsuccessful option of Whelan. As I pointed out the other day McCarthy is miles better when Whelan isn't in the team. We have to use him as the DM for the play off games. We also need to steer well clear of starting McClean - impact sub at best.
Brady was woeful last night- keep him in midfield.
Lewandowski is a talented player but by God does he love a dive. O'Shea just kept falling into the traps, you'd think an experienced defender would be wise to such things.
I hope we end up with Sweden or Denmark. I think we could nick a score draw over there. Let's not all go back to the doom and gloom after the euphoric victory on Thursday. Emotionally and physically the players were spent, Hoolahan not being 100% was a problem and it ultimately cost us a result. Need to wrap him up in cotton wool. I just thought we'd have sneaked a draw. Oh well 2 more games....
Agreed Lewandowski went down easily but O'Shea is experienced enough at this level to have copped onto it. He continually man-handled him. If Shane Long was doing similar at the other end of the pitch we'd all be praising him. O'Shea was terrible last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
[QUOTE=paul_oshea;1843033]All those factors have nothing to do with how poor our performance was. The noise, the team being up for it, the emotion.
QUOTE]
Nothing? ;)
Get up the yard. I don't know how you put a percentage value on it but it had something to do with us being on the back foot from the start until about 25 minutes from the end. It's a fact that the home team wins more often than the away team. And a determined Polish side ripping into us from the start roared on by however many thousands of pivo fuelled Poles had an effect. The way you've dismissed it, you make it sound like it could have been a pre-season friendly behind closed doors and we'd still have been so poor.
However, just to reiterate, it's fairly clear I'm not blaming our poor play solely on that.
:rolleyes:
Lewandowski didn't need to be even touched to go down last nightQuote:
Originally Posted by IsMiseSean
Cute forward play. It's up to the referee to stop that, who I thought was poor last night. And there are plenty of incidents were JOSH is all over him.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
JOSH's two yellow cards were for fouls on Lewandowski. The first one was a little soft, but there was an elbow on the side of the head (not intentional) but you're giving the ref a decision to make. The 2nd YC is just plain stupidity knowing your already on a yellow.
Walters yellow is the most ridiculous, why he feels the need to pull back Lewandowski is beyond me. Plenty of cover around & he was going nowhere.
Don't think there was too much difference between this performance and our game on Thursday to be honest. Main difference was Poland had an attacking threat, which Germany didn't have.
Thought the ref was one of the worst I've seen at this level. Our penalty was never a penalty. O'Shea's first yellow was nonsense, as was Whelan's. I thought Poland could have had a penalty at one stage when O'Shea was all over his man in the box. And the ref was far, far too picky overall - refused to let the game flow. 43 frees overall, and it wasn't a dirty game.
But in the end of the day, we weren't good enough - simple as that. Onwards now to the play-off - though I don't see much different happening there to be honest.
The other thing was both those cards were so late in the game, the chances of us getting that second goal had gone, it would have been better for Walters and O'Shea to avoid the cards and not pick up the suspension. The Poland game was done at that stage, but we will be a bit weaker for that first leg without O'Shea (our main organizer) and Walters (who has been one of our most hard working attacking players).Quote:
Originally Posted by IsMiseSean
People are mentioning tiredness. The worst thing is that it's the same time frame between the two legs of the play-offs.
The world is surely ending. perfect summary.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I thought we looked very leggy, I don't think O'shea had the legs for the two games in quick succession, in a weird way it may be a blessing that he'll be available and fresh for the second leg, assuming we're still in with a shout. Same for Walters,the intensity of the Germany game took it's toll on the lads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
I personally think that we need to develop another player who can come in and do the Wes role if he's not fit. If it was me, i'd use Brady in that role, and move cyrus/wilson to left full back. We can't replace our playmaker with Glenn Whelan.
I agree that the diamond seems to suit us better than the 4-1-4-1, but given that it was introduced to accommodate Hoolahan - who declared himself unfit to start last night - reverting to the latter shape can't really be interpreted as a blunder IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by tricky_colour
As for Ward, as someone else mentioned, I think he was injured. Though, with all due respect to the lad, although he did well against Germany, we know all too well that he's hardly the answer to any left-sided defensive woes!
Well put.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Ward at LB allows Brady to be played where he is much more effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanOB
Brady starting in midfield over LB is a no brainer imo as long as there is a full back available - Ward or Wilson.
Hoolahan did look out of sorts when he came on.
It's an old adage by this stage going back to the away game against Sweden that McCarthy performs better without Whelan and we play better attacking football with McCarthy and A.N.other. We improved once Whelan was subbed by McGeady and Hendrick moved in closer.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
It was always going to be a hectic, frantic, tough, play off game and we had to be up for that part of it but we didn't add much on top of that apart from McGeady's sublime cross into the box. Poland have improved immeasurably since their 2014 WC qual campaign and have played a far better class of football than we could manage throughout this qual campaign, they have Lewandowski but they also have Krychowiak who bossed the midfield last night.
We are worth out play off spot though.
Cunningham is another option but he is playing for a team at the bottom of the Championship but at least he's playing regularly.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
In fairness to Ward he played LB in the two games against Germany and played very well in both games. I can't remember his performance in Glasgow...
Westwood
Coleman - Clarke - O'Shea - Wilson
McCarthy
Walters - Hendrick - Brady
Hoolahan
Long
That'd be the team I'd pick in a perfect world, Randolph could have saved that 2nd goal last night I think, and a top class keeper certainly would, but otherwise he looks pretty solid and confident. You'd worry he'll play very little football in between now and the playoffs thou, so I'd go for Westwood, but MON doesn't seem all that keen.
Edit: Was just thinking re other formations, could we ever make a 3-5-2 work? Brady and Coleman as wingbacks and McCarthy Shielding. Wes and Walters can drift around a bit, with Brady and Coleman overlapping.
Westwood
Clarke - O' Shea - Wilson
Coleman - McCarthy - Brady
Hendrick - Hoolahan
Walters - Long
I'd like to see it at some stage.
Interesting marking (ie none!!) for for the best striker in the world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnqTzkRHpI4
Unbelievable!!
Just shocking!!
I just find that unbelievable.
Walters should have gone across there, stood on him and helped out. He was originally Keogh's man but I can see why he had to leave him.
Switch off for one second against a world class striker and you will get punished.
The other thing that frustrated me last night was that we are chasing a goal, we bring Robbie on but then hit long balls up to him. It's not his game, either give him the ball the way he likes it or throw on McGoldrick or Murphy. How can you expect Robbie to win headers and flick ons when he's a foot smaller than the defenders?
In fairness, within minutes of Robbie's introduction, they brought on McGeady and moved Walters in beside him in a 4-4-2.
Robbie feeding off a knock down from a big lad worked pretty well for us once!
Not defending the long ball approach, but at least it was quickly recognised that a straight swap of Keane for Long in a 4-1-4-1 would have been ridiculous under any circumstances.
Yes I am not at all sure what the idea was there, it was hard to see how we were every going to get the ball to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
Yes but that was Niall Quinn, he is 6'4 (1/4 inch shorter than Lewandowsk) Walters is only 6'0, you could see for Lewandowsk's goal the height difference there.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanOB
Probably would have been better to have started Murphy same as v Germany and brought on a fresh Long to use his pace
against tired legs, worked pretty well that way.
Listening to various media outlets in the last 24 hours, one thing caught my attention. The midfield axis of Hendrick, McCarthy, Houlihan and Brady were all very good against Germany. All very talented players and I wonder should we build our team around that axis.
Been a defender of Whelan in the past but I think the reality may be that he and McCarthy play too similar a role. Is it a coincidence that mccarthy's best game for Ireland came in a game where he was the defensive midfielder. Maybe that's too simple an analysis.
Had cause to compare the 2009 playoff team versus what we have now. Arguably the team now is marginally stronger, though we don't have a player like duffer now. Net point is though that this team should expect to be in the second tier in Europe.
I accept that Walters is not the ideal target man (although he did win a lot of aerial ball in both Germany games).Quote:
Originally Posted by tricky_colour
I was simply arguing against the contention that we hit long balls to Keane. We didn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy
Yea it is rather one dimensional, ie defensive, there is little attacking threat through the middle, it is mainly out to the wing for a run down the line and it all becomes
rather predictable, we need more variety to keep the opposition guessing. ie out to the wing and then back to the centre and then across the other side
maybe, make the opposition do a bit of chasing and try and create gaps for the full back to run into.
Also I could often seen two straight lines v Germany, v Poland we were all over the place. I felt quite comfortable when Germany had the ball for some reason,
they seemed to find it difficult to create good chances. Poland seemed to drag us all over place with holes appearing everywhere.
Mind you we didn't have to score v Germany.
Have only been able to bring myself to post now after that disappointment.
Brady's delivery as shocking. McClean should only be an impact sub against a tiring defence. Long was a loss when he came off.
O'Shea and Hendrick looked nervy. Keogh did well.
Overall it seemed the occasion got to them and we really missed Wes. Have to accept O'Neill's version of events that Wes wasn't able for 90 minutes. We really need everyone firing on all cylinders for the play-offs
I thought he looked jaded, both mentally and physically, and just couldn't get into it. Fair enough, he was under pressure, but there were two occasions in the second half when he seemed to just lose his balance and fall over as the ball was passed to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
Edit: Not that I wish to single him out for blame or give the impression I'm finger-pointing, but the tiredness was noticeable. It should be noted he's been brilliant throughout the whole campaign and was pivotal in creating some exceptionally important goals.
Back from the front:
Warsaw:
The old town was a disappointment from a "craic" point of view and the "Irish pubs" somewhere you'd do well to avoid picking up a contagious disease in. Saw few enough Irish fans around there so they must have found another place of entertainment. The Uprising Museum was great, even if we had to queue for an hour to get in. Puts the 1916 Rising in the halfpenny place but perhaps we should have something similar.
Fans:
Poorest showing at a game for a long time. There was one large swathe who singularly failed to get off their collective backsides for the whole game. Spectators not supporters. One contingent even started signing "We all dream of a team of Gary Breens" as Ireland were pressing for the equaliser. Hardly the greatest rallying cry even known.
The Game
1987 still remains the last competitive victory away from home against a higher ranked side so I didn't travel with any huge ambition despite the win over Germany - what was the likelihood of two such victories in a row? What I saw (and it was difficult high in the Gods in a great stadium) was not unexpected although I didn't expect Robbie Brady to give the ball away with such regularity and thus render impotent one of our most potent weapons. People say we were tired but how did we finish the stronger? We were offered the chance (Keogh) of the miraculous result. The Gods (and I know, I was up there with them) who had looked benignly on us on Thursday, were otherwise engaged and saw fit to deny us the draw which on the whole would not have been a highway robbery based upon the second half. Hard to comment on the other players as I did not bring my binoculars with me. A fine line between defeat and a 2-2. First time Poland has qualified for the Euros under their own steam and the local fans were very happy (and friendly it must be said before and after).
The Play Offs
If we get Ukraine, we're doomed (I know it in my soul). The rest I'd say we have a reasonable chance but no more than that.
Back last night myself, old town was empty, we nipped in there and within 20 mins had been nabbed by the indo, a couple of Polski tv stations and helped break a Polish line dancing world record ffs :D. The YBIG lads had the Tortilla factory booked out, the west Belfast lads were in City 24 closer to the ground and nowhere was showing the Rugby so most of our lot were spread about all over the place, we ended up just doing a pub crawl to the ground, good craic with pockets of our lot in different spots going on but everyone wasn't congregated together in the one area. Post game we ended up in a boozer that was literally built into the supports of the bridge you go over right before the stadium, about 30 Irish and a fair Polski crowd in there, knocked into town then but not much doing with everyone so spread out.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Regarding those who got Gary Breen going, I'd rather hear that and our other older songs get back in circulation instead of the 2 poxy Celtic songs on repeat and an odd chorus of Fields of Athenry that comprises our desperately poor songbook these days.
Match wise for me we were dead on our feet after Thursday which is fair enough given the effort that was put in. Whelan and McClean were extremely poor for the fresh men. O'Shea was bloody stupid for getting himself a second yellow that he knew would put him out of the first leg. As was mentioned Brady had an off night with his delivery so we got no joy from arguably the one area we could have got a smash and grab from. Lewandowski is unplayable on current form, despite his theatrics at times. Thought the ref was a strange fella, very stop start, cards for nothing really and then the pen sure. He has previous for being a gob****e though.
This time a few years ago all of us would have snapped the hand off everyone for the playoffs, we're still in with a shout and bar one or two we can at least put it up to we have the beating of the rest of the potential play off opponents. If we get through fantastic but a good campaign given the cards we were dealt and how it went, a good base to push on from for the WC group either way which is a hell of a lot more open.
i don't think Coleman helped him but I largely agree. I've been called up here for being critical of Randolph in the past. It's not even that I'm critical. I'll forgive any keeper an error, it's just that I frequently feel a keeper of his ability could have done better for goals I've seen him concede. I felt that way about both goals on Sunday. That said, he made a very good save and looks like a confident keeper. I loved the swagger he showed when he came on against Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
Speaking of which, did anyone notice him coming out early before the second half to do a warm up, and then Manuel Neuer went out of his way to go over to him, put his arm around him and - presumably! - wished him luck. Class. I love Neuer, genius of a player. That pass last week...
I think it's becoming clear that Whelan cramps McCarthy's style somehow and there's room for only one. I thought McClean was shocking on Sunday.
Very harsh on Randolph. Nobody would have stopped the 2nd goal. 1st goal wasn't really his fault either. Went through bodies and was very well struck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I also thought he was fairly unsighted for the second. **** poor marking for both goals to be honest. Slow getting out to the first goal scorer and leaving the highly unlikeable but extremely excellent Lewandowski with so much room is unforgivable.