Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we were to amalgamate wouldn't we also get an amalgamation of co efficients, which would mean that we would get a slight boost from that, we would rise about five or six places in the co efficients table.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
That can only be a good thing.
I'll have to correct you. Its only an average. As NI has a worse average than us the new average would be less than our present one. It would be the average of the two averages which is worse than our average but better than NI's average. So ROI clubs would be worse off but NI clubs would be better off. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Breifne
Except for Shels and Bohs who beacus of their performances in Europe have established their own club co-efficients.
Besides according to the current plan only 16 teams would get to compete for Europe anyway (with the exception of the proposed National cup I presume) so it's only a handful more teams fighting for places.
At the moment there's no provision for a First Division so nobody has to worry about the other 34 clubs who are gonna get kicked out of senior football threatening to steal any precious European spots.
Forgot that it was an average, so yeah, bit of a bummer there.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
Come on SLK, there isn't a country in Europe that gives Euro slots to teams from lower divisions, unless they win the Cup.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
I think an All-Ireland league would be superb. I think it should be 3 tires in it eg, LOI 1st div teams go into Div 1 A and Irish league 1st div teamsgo int Div 1 B and the top 2 from both sections go into the Samis and the 2 teams that reach the final will be promated into he Prem or else do it as 4 go up and 4 go down. What do ye think?
No, I know that, I'm not so big a whinger that I've a problem with that! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by patsh
It's just that as far as I can tell there isn't any provision for lower leagues in the idea currently being floated. This annoys me. And worries me.
I wouldn't worry SLK. I'm in danger oif sounding like David Brent, but I think it's currently just a case of "sell the sizzle, not the sausage" here....! Remember - this is one unofficial interview with one person about a huge concept. Of course there'd need to be feeder divisions into an AIL prem - otherwise the whole concept would just die in a matter of seasons. But at the moment, it's the 'big picture' that will sell the idea - journos don't really want to hear about the technicalities of it all, particularly at this stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
Have faith.... :)
I see you've conveniently ignored my perfectly good and accurate maths earlier on this thread which prove that teams would have less of a chance of qualifying for Europe. European slots are an issue - how could they not be?!Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Obviously it would be harder to qualify for europe but hopefully this should be outweighed by other factors such as increased attendances and (most importantly of all) a substantial TV deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
This will only happen if decent TV money is available, otherwise clubs won't take the risk.
Tell dcfcsteve and his flawed maths that! :rolleyes: ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by paudie
The EL currently has 4 Euro slots. The IL currently has 4 Euro slots. If we combined both, our co-efficient might go down, but each team would still be playing for, wait for it..., 4 SLOTS !Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
We would probably be lower seeded, but we'd still have a total of 4 slots ! Therefore, our opportunities of GETTING INTO Europe would be exactly the same, it just might be tougher for a few seasons initially when we got there. You could even argue that Euro ventures would be easier to some degree for EL clubs, as the southern teams would be initially playing with a co-efficient that under-rated them ! And with Bohs and Shels on good personal seedings, not all EL clubs would be affected anyway.
Studying Maths by any chance Pineapple.... :O)
[QUOTE=paudie]Obviously it would be harder to qualify for europe
How would an all-island league make it uniquely harder to qualify for Europe in a way that increasing the size of the premier division by 20% next season doesn't ? Or in a way that expanding the LOI in 1985 didn't ?
Both those above activities make it harder for any EL team to qualify for Europe, by increasing the number of competitors for the slots available. Yet Euro slots are only ever bemoaned as a negative issue when it's in the context of an all-island league. Why ???
[QUOTE=dcfcsteve]Because the teams coming into the premier in those instances were/are not going to be competing for the top three spots. If the NI teams are good enough to challenge Shels etc., the ROI teams will be less likely to get into Europe, if the NI teams can't compete, it'll be less likely they'll get into Europe, therefore bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by paudie
I can't believe how parochially minded everyone is being about this. So the teams in the 1985 expansion of the LOI were never going to compete for Euro slots ? Why did you ever let Derry City into your precious little league then - sure we've had the cheek to deny you all of silverware on 10 occasions, and European entry 7 times. Bray and Longford were also new teams introduced in the 1985 expansion - rack up another 6 trophies, and 3 European outings denied to you all. Shocking really what can happen when you open your doors! Best not make that mistake again......Quote:
Originally Posted by ShelsTim
This discussion is now descending into farce. At best 2-4 IL teams will be realistically competing for Europe in the medium term, and probably only 1 from the off, so it's not as if the mongol hordes will be charging south of the border to seize our precious Euro slots. Yes - you could therefore argue that that is bad for IL clubs. However, raising the standard would be to their benefit beyond the short-term, and regardless - they could just as easily be denied Euro slots by new comers within their own league (Institute, Donegal Celtic) as by increased competition within an AIL.
If conjecture regarding the degree of competition for European slots is the best anyone has to say against an all-island league, then they've clearly lost the arguement already.
This is really getting into small-minded 'me fein' ism. Feck what's best for football in Ireland......
I agree, sure we may aswell make it a four team league and everyone gets into europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Increased competition for European spaces is a good thing and can only raise the standard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
I agree. If you want football to progress on this island then you need an all-ireland league with proper promotion and relegation so every team is included.
But we have combined two leagues, so you'd have more teams competing for those four slots! Therefore your odds would be reduced, as per my earlier post - QED!Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
At the moment you have, say, Shels, Longford, Bohs, Cork, Linfield, Glentoran, Ports and AN Other getting into Europe from x number of teams. In a unified league you'd have only half those teams getting into Europe from the same number of teams! It's that simple! Look back at my earlier post and see how simple! Fortunately, most people here seem to agree with me. So I'm not going to repeat myself for the minority who have rather poor maths. Basically, though, odds aren't that simple that you get to average them out to get new odds - if they were, then betting on two 2-1 outcomes (results, say) would leave you with odds of 2-1! Which is plainly nonsense!
the maths is correct that the total number of teams playing in europe would go down from 8 to 4. thats fine
and if people are really attached to seeing their 4 republic of ireland teams and 4 northern ireland teams in europe every year then fine too
and its true that in an all ireland league theres a chance that all 4 teams representing ireland could be from the north
but my opinion is, so what?
ireland as 1 country would only deserve 4 teams in europe. so right now, we have 8
im all for it, sign me up dcfc
And I'll repeat myself one last time. There's been a number of changes within the Eircom League/League of Ireland that have likewise increased the level of competition for Euro slots - e.g. a 20% increase in the size of the premier next season, the 1985 expansion of the league etc. Not once did anyone bemoan the impact of those events upon the maths of European qualification. Yet when it's an all-Ireland league we're talking about, suddenly it becomes an issue and everyone's reaching for their abacus's. Why ?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Personally I don't know why everyone's getting so hung about 4 or 6 games max in Europe (far more important to have a competitive, well marketed successful league for the whole season than a few weeks in July and August imo), but Steve it is a valid arguement that the chances of European football will be reduced in an All Ireland league. You're not talking about bringing up 1st division or Intermediate football teams whose priorities were survival (as is the case in the increase next season or the expansion in 85), you're talking about introducing some of the top teams on the Ireland who will be expecting to compete for the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Like I said, I think the importance of European Football is overplayed, and the importance of an all ireland league to the development and survival of football on this island is far more important...
You can't have it both ways then.
The same people on this board are happy to constantly claim that Irish League football is vastly inferior to the EL, then the next minute are whinging that it will be tougher to qualify for Europe if there is an All Ireland League!
Does not compute :confused:
Really doesn't bother me - we're not going to be competing for the league european spots in either league, we simply can't compete with the money that's being thrown around at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
1) I think the eL is superior to the irish league, but that doesn't make every team ****, and it doesn't mean the likes of Linfield won't be able to pull in the money to compete in an all ireland league
2) It will be harder to get to Europe, that's obvious. It's importance is overplayed, and it takes an exceptional year for any team to get more than 4 games in it anyway.
3) A more competitive league is a good thing, and can only help the media coverage that we hope will follow an All Ireland league.
well I supposed the more competitve the league, the teams that do go into Europe have a better chance of getting past the third round of the Champions League Qualifiers.
I dont think I have a major problem with an all ireland league. Shels and Cork will dominate it for a long time IMO. Maybe 1 northern team will in the top 3.
I cant wait for the Sentanta Cup, Linfield et al are going to get an Irish lessson :p
Link to the Article in question - http://www.geocities.com/temp_store2000/irish_star.htm
The problem with that is that the European Qualification depends on the membership of the national associations with Uefa. A breakwaway league which was not recognised by a national association would not qualify for UEFA competitions. The IFA would be shaky on this because to enter an all ireland league as the principal method of entry into Europe would threated their autonomy and indeed the purpose of a seperate Northern association.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
The IFA are never gonna let that happen. The Clubs can play all they want but if they want Champions League Cash then they will all fall into line
Clones Road Casual
Thanks for the link Roo69, interesting indeed... though i doubt Dundalk would be in this 16 team "superleague".
Ultimately Uefa will never allow a cross-border FA retain all its European spots. While Shels and Cork might not have any qualms about this, I doubt that teams below them in the table, and north of the border would make such a sacrifice.
On a selfish note, a single league would see teams like Galway United lose out. They could even manage to go up theses last two years despite the great opportunities they had... It would kill off a good few provincial sides.
Jesus, hate to bring your stupid rant to a halt, but I'm all for the All-Ireland league, I was merely trying to clarify the perfectly logical, mathematical argument from the UCD fella.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
The teams coming in with the 85 expansion only won stuff after a good few years or with a bag load of money being immediately invested, bringing in UCD and Bray next season isn't going to realistically reduce Shels chances of getting to the CL.
And it's not exactly small-minded 'me-fein' ism when the survival and continued success of certain clubs would depend on European progress. It's a real problem and you can't insult it away.
There's only one way the league would work and that's if it was run properly by a stream-lined, representative National Body. That and a All-Ireland divisional structure, i.e. All-Ireland divisions 1 and maybe 2)
i think an All-Ireland league is a better bet than the present seperate leagues. You have to get the interest of the general public in the national league. That is not happening at the moment. Imagine Linfield Rangers vs Shamrock Rovers in Tallagh in front of 10,000 people.
What we have at the moment is a league with poor attendences and clubs that are as backward now as they ever were.
Don't get me wrong I would welcome an All-Ireland League and it might in the early stages increase attendances. I remember Derry City coming into the League and bringing thousands to matches in the First Division. Within three years those crowds had halved. Now they have similar averages to Bohemians, Shels and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by harry crumb
Irish people North and South are too frigging lazy to attend matches in any code regularly if they are not glamourous. It requires too much commitment and too many hours away from the boozer. Who is to say there would be 10,000 at Rovers v Linfield in either Tallaght or Windsor? Especially if it clashed with Big Brother , some other reality TV show or good forbid Premiership matches.
Speaking as a supporter of the only EL team never to have lost a home tie in European football or had an embarrassing European result for that matter I have to agree with the above posting !Quote:
Originally Posted by ShelsTim
UCD and Bray will make it slightly more difficult for Shels to qualify for Europe when we force you to drop points against us. :D
In the run up to any proposed All-Ireland League and whatever number of qualification spots it is important to remember this salient point.
Any Irish team doing well in Europe makes it easier for subsequent qualifiers to get favourable draws, which is why we need Cork to emulate their InterToto result of 2004 in the UEFA Cup in 2005. We need Longford not to get beaten by the Faroe Island Cup winners and we need Shels to do a repeat of this years results next time out if not go one better!
That is a good point about Derry city joining the Eircom League. I expect there will be an increased turn out in supporters in the beginning but that is bound to fall off unless there is a major increase in coverage, quality in football and sporting infastructure. I can only see capacity crowds at European matches.
Some people dont really care about loosing European places. Personally I think that Europe is the only way which teams here will progress in Europe.
Coverage would increase which is allready obvious from Setanta's coverage of the Setanta Cup that people will be intersted in watching.Quote:
Originally Posted by thejollyrodger
quality of football would increase because if you're taking the best teams from each Premier then it only makes sense that the football would be of better quality.
And finally with bigger gates and surely bigger prize money sporting infastructure would eventually improve.
And hopefully after all this happening the League would be much more tempting to good players abroad and then the quality would improve another notch.
As far as the arguement for European places goes - yes there would only be 4 slots available but so the BEST four teams would qualify and hopefully european performances would improve raising our co-ef points.
Hopefully the 2 FA's are using the Setanta Cup as a trial to see if they should look into the possibility of an all-ireland league!
:ball:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thejollyrodger
How true. :D
Derry, Glentoran and Linfield seem to be "testing" the waters for increased co-operation between the two leagues.
Note for the friendly between derry and the glens. There were no union jacks or tricolours brought to the match and 500 glentoran fans went to derry for the friendly. See here
[QUOTE=dcfcsteve]I'm all in favour of an all ireland league and don't consider the possible greater difficulty in qualifying for Europe a big issue. It should be compensated by other factors as i've said above.Quote:
Originally Posted by paudie
However I think its fair to at least speculate that the standard of teams like Linfield, Glentoran and Portadown is likely to be higher than Bray, UCD and Finn Harps and therefore it is likely to be harder to get points from them than from the extra teams in the Premier division next season.
I think we need to get a TV company committed to a long term contract to give us decent coverage. After that, it'ld be almost garaunteed to succeed. More money-better players-better performance in Europe-Better TV deals-more money and around again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShelsTim
We need a sponsor commited to supporting getting us TV coverage !!
Bring back Belfast Celtic as well