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Conor 74 I don't follow Celtic buy the way. just find them English the most hypocritical shower ever. lived over there for years and have been at grounds at many lower divisions where racists chants are second nature. Just found it funny to hear the poor shocked england fans acting so innocent.
It has been two seasons since Lennon's death threat and three and half since the booing at the Norway game. Only a ten year old would consider that a different era. Still as you'd say there's 'nothing like twisting events to suit what you'd like to believe, is there' ?Point about 'last manifestations' I'll come to laterQuote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
What is garbage. That sectarianism at WP was likely to affect RC players and supporters attending NI matches? As for FFA being successful, what you are suggesting is that 'Football For All' is nothing more than what it initially looks like: A meaningless slogan. If it ran for two years before Lennon being booed, how did or has it succeed. What changed attitudes were perhaps things like the poor publicity in the unionist press, threat of UEFA sanctions (which I doubt would have occurred as Lennon is white), the fashion statements by 'Big' Donald Hodgen and John 'Grug' Greg when they met the bed-wetter on his release - hope you don't mind me bringing up this subject but shirts with the three mangy hyenas were in evidence for what some would term 'Irish' people - that took some of the less liberal NI fans onto a team where their views are appreciated, but nothing of course like this below, though, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
After Neil I'll never play for the North (Ireland on Sunday 25 August 2002)
UNTIL ONE year ago, Henry McStay was just another schoolboy dreaming of playing football for his country and emulating his heroes on the international stage.
A big, strong boy with a good right foot, he had already been identified by the talent scouts as a real prospect and, by the time he hit 17, he had donned his country's green shirt. But now McStay's allegiances have changed.The past year has been a watershed for the youngster. The shirt on his back is still green but the letters on its badge have been re-arranged. McStay hails from Lurgan, Co. Armagh, the home town of sometime Northern Ireland skipper, Neil Lennon.
Like Lennon, he was happy to play for Northern Ireland, to ignore the loyalist flags and anti-Catholic songs that are ever-present at international matches involving the North. Like Lennon, he just wanted to get on with it and rose through the ranks to captain the North's under-17 side.But things changed for McStay a year ago when Northern Ireland's loyalist supporters turned on Lennon after he signed for Celtic, a team they view as an Irish Catholic club. Lennon was booed at matches and graffiti went up in his - and McStay's - home town. 'Neil Lennon RIP' was written on walls in Lurgan and, for Henry, it was not the only writing on the wall.Though Lennon braved the bigotry and struggled on for another year in the green of the North, McStay made a decision to look to Dublin for international action. 'After Neil moved to Celtic, he started to receive abuse while playing for Northern Ireland and I didn't want that happening to me,' explained McStay, currently in the Leeds United's youth team.
'The players and the management in Northern Ireland are excellent. The problem is with a small number of lunatics.'My father has always been a fan of the Republic and he always brought me down to Lansdowne Road to see them play. It's my dream to play for the senior squad. During the qualifiers for the European Championships, my family was able to come and watch me play. 'If I was playing for Northern Ireland, that could not happen as I would be afraid they would be abused.''For me, one cap with the Republic is worth more than 100 with Northern Ireland. I have played at Windsor Park for Northern Ireland at schoolboy level and I captained the squad which won the Victory Shield - but I could never go there as a fan. Some of the fans do not want Catholics at the games.
'What has happened to Neil is an absolute disgrace and I feel so sorry for him. But I don't want to go through what he and his family are facing. This type of thing has happened before and, unfortunately, it will happen again. I don't want anything to do with it.'McStay's fears are not unusual. Though Catholics like Pat Jennings, Martin O'Neill and Gerry Armstrong have all played for the North, many others have opted to play for the Republic. In recent years, players like Ger Crossley from Belfast and Mark McKeever from Derry have looked south. The politics of intimidation played a big part in their decision.Lurgan lies in the heart of one of the North's most notorious areas, the so-called Murder Triangle, where loyalist gangs have established a reign of terror since the 1970s. Lurgan, Craigavon and Portadown are synonymous with sectarian violence, while the church at Drumcree, just outside Porta-down, has hit the world's headlines for all the wrong reasons.
This is the triangle where human rights solicitor Rosemary Nelson was killed by a loyalist bomb, where Catholic Robert Hamill died after a loyalist mob 'danced on his head', and where reporter Martin O'Hagan was shot dead by a loyalist gunman.The violence, both republican and loyalist, is all the more bitter for the mixed nature of the area. Catholics and Protestant estates exist cheek by jowl in this part of the North. Terror gangs from both sides don't have to stray far to find targets, and people in the North have been murdered for lesser reasons than football.It was against this background that Neil Lennon grew up in the '70s and '80s. His parents still live at the family home at Hawthorne Avenue in Lurgan's Shankill Estate, a neat row of well-kept houses which lie in a quiet area of the town close to the main Lurgan to Portadown road.
While local sport suffered as a result of Lurgan's inter-community and sectarian problems, a few brave individuals worked hard to break down the barriers. One of them, a Protestant, recognised the footballing potential of the young Lennon and played a major part in helping him move to English soccer.One member of the local football community, who knows the Lennon family well but who declined to be named, described the events which forced Lennon to withdraw from the Northern Ireland squad this week as 'the product of a twisted and bigoted mindset'.
The source said the Lennon family had no involvement in politics. They were quiet people, he said, respected locally by both communities. When Neil lived there, he was all about football. 'Even when he played for local side Lurgan United, he stood out from all the other players. He had that bit of class which made him different. 'He wasn't interested in politics, he just wanted to play football.'That love took Lennon to Crewe Alexandra, West Ham United and Leicester, where a respect for manager Martin O'Neill led Lennon to follow his boss to Celtic, and eventually to an ultimatum from Northern loyalists.Still, Lennon never forgot his home town and has travelled back frequently to take part in a number of events involving local junior soccer clubs.On one occasion, he was the guest of honour and presented the prizes to the young players of Lurgan Town FC, a club which draws the vast majority of its players from the local Protestant community.His cross-community efforts are much appreciated by the locals, most of whom are too scared to speak publicly about this week's events.
'Neil had no hesitation in accepting the invitation from Lurgan Town,' said one member of the club. 'He never asked for a penny of expenses and covered the cost of the trip himself.'One organisation which did go on the record, however, was the local LVF, which stressed to Ireland on Sunday that it did not issue the death threat against Lennon last Wednesday. A senior LVF source said the organisation was not in the business of intimidating or threatening sportsmen or women. 'The LVF Army Council are making it quite clear it was not responsible for the death threat issued against Neil Lennon.
'The LVF do not issue statements or any other information without the use of a recognised codeword. The threat against Neil Lennon contained no codeword. It is irresponsible for the security forces to apportion blame without definitive proof. It is up to Neil Lennon to decide whether or not he wants to play for Northern Ireland; the LVF does not select the international soccer team.'But the loyalist organisation's comments have fallen on deaf ears this week. The only phrase that Neil Lennon, his family and the rest of football heard was the one threatening his life.
In fact what can really be termed a success? Lennon has left and a Celtic playing RC has yet to play again for NI. DG doesn't share your optimism that the bad old days have gone.
But then if all it takes is some meaningless slogan and campaign to make everything is OK, the Spanish FA are absolved, although they could do with telling Luis to stop listening to Gangsta Rap and point out that while it's coooooool for Dr. Dre and Snoop to speak to their fellow black men in such an insulting manner, it upsets the sanctimonious and hypocritical 'white' tabloids in England and faux liberals like Connor74 to do likewise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
No deal!Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
With regards to the IFA this is the kind of conflict of interests that occurs when there are four bodies from one country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
I'll come back to thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
There have been accusations that black versus white fights were arranged by the Screws. In such an atmosphere I don't think that an accusation of screws exposing Mubarek to 'violent assault' is libellous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Where's the thread on Aragones and Henry? Events involving the Scum or clubs from the Premiership will have a greater bearing on people here than other 'foreign' sides, not least due to 'Irish' newspapers coverage of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
I think he saw something on Newsround on Tuesday or Wednesday. While I agree that transport links are more important than who manages to get the most shades of beige in a promotion video, if you believe Panorama, it's the number of beige envelopes that will win it, but there is always there's always The Scum what swung it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
They (tabloids) are a bunch of hypocrites as their past and future show us. The Mirror in 1996, the Scum in most of the eighties and nineties towards, as Sylvo points out, Bernie Grant and the athletics fans at CP in 1984 who were told by the Scum's editorial to go back to their 'homelands' are in the past, but what about the xenophobia of the present.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Ahh the 'B' word. Wondered when that was going to make an entrance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
What was that you were saying about no one lecturing me here on racism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor74
#Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Let me run it by you again. Back a few years ago, there was a vocal minorty who sang sectarian songs at every NI home match. This had already been ended by the 'booing' incident - which was 100 people (many not even NI regulars) out of a crowd of 7000. At the next match, against the Czech Republic, there was not one person booing against Lennon. A huge deal of progress had already been made and has continued to be made since then. Yes there have been setbacks along the way but we've come a very long way in the right direction.
No, that Football for All only started after the Lennon incident. As I said already :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
It had by that stage put a stop to sectarian singing. And the match after the one you refer to, no booing of Lennon, the idiots had been silenced. Success I think. As for the situation in 2004, the NI support has created a carnival atmosphere at matches, again free of the sectarianism of old. Success again I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
What changed was the NI fans were able to organise themselves, through the advent of fanzines, websites etc, to put an end to the sectarian crap. Do you want me to produce the fanzine articles of years gone by to prove this?Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
By the way that atricle is an excellent example of how some 'journalists' take wild liberties with the truth, for example:
"Like Lennon, he was happy to play for Northern Ireland, to ignore the loyalist flags and anti-Catholic songs that are ever-present at international matches involving the North."
When this article was written, the sectarian singing had been stopped. So that's just a blatant lie. As for 'loyalist flags', preumably this fool is talking about the Northern Ireland flag? Supporters of the NI team bringing the NI flag to NI matches eh? Shocking! Whatever next, England fans with England flags? RoI fans with RoI flags (would the writer have complained about "republican flags" at Landsdowne? Would he fu...)
"But things changed for McStay a year ago when Northern Ireland's loyalist supporters turned on Lennon after he signed for Celtic, a team they view as an Irish Catholic club. Lennon was booed at matches"
Not a mention of the fact this was a tiny minority and that many thousnads of NI fans got behind Neil. Or that and end was put to these idiots booing after that first game. I stood outside Windsor and sold a fanzine with a photo of Lennon on the front in both his NI and Celtic shirts - no-one said a word in argument with the sentiment we and others were trying to get across.
Meaningless? You coments are a f**king disgrace. NI fans along with the FFA team have worked bloody hard to ensure the eradication of sectarian singing. NI matches are now fantastic occasions free from 'offensive chanting'. Yet you would pretend all this is meaningless. Some gall. How you have the cheek to complain about the sectarianism of the past yet claim the massive stps taken to eradicate it are 'meaningless', I would love to know. Pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
No- I called you a numbskull not because you're stupid- that's forgivable- but because you're a bigot. Next.
I am not and never have been a bigot. I have continually in this thread deplored racism.
What's more I have never at any stage resorted to personal insult in my dealings with you. Nor have I used any of the plethora of sectarian slurs that I have become aware of during my life.
Feel free to disagree with my postings but do not resort to personal insults otherwise you lose your argument.
I deduce from the signature at the end of your postings that you are a Crusaders fan, which proves I am not stupid either. I am semi-familiar with the Irish League which I believe is largely ignored by the Dublin media and I happen to think that is a crime.Your league are our next door neighbours, if we must have other Leagues in our newspapers we should start with the Irish League and work outward from there.
Crusaders do not , in my experience have a lot of sectarian baggage. Linfield have, as a club, whatever about some of their supporters, never been as sectarian as Glasgow Rangers, nor indeed have Glentoran, MikeNI may be able to put me straight on this if I am wrong.
On the other hand Portadown have an ex -Loyalist paramilitary terrorist on their board of directors or did up to quite recently.
Quote:
Hmm........calling someone a 'bigot'for taking a stance v.Fascism.......whatever next loyalists seek to get Irish passports!
Thanks for the support Davros
Duncan I find the whole idea of one faction marching down the street , which is inhabited by another faction,
in a triumphalist manner, confrontational, provocational and frankly ludicrous. It is also another form of racism.
This is the sad situation that pertains to the city you hail from, and where my mother and grandmother were born for the record, during the summer months. And that is not a bigoted statement, but one of historical fact.I suspect that 2005 will not be any different.
My statement of the riduculousness of marching applies equally to Orangemen down the Gravaghey Road, Or The Ancient Order of Hibernians marching down the Shankill chanting " F*** the Queen " and "Where's your Empire now Scum?" ! This second scenario would be equally intolerable as the first one I mentioned.
Although if Parity of Esteem is to mean anything than you could not have one without the other.
We, in the Republic, live in a constitutional democracy. We can for a small sum find out what our rights are.
The Constitution of the Republic costs less than €3.00 !
I voted in favour of a constitutional amendment, which guarantees your right, and that of everyone born ad raised on this island, should you or they choose to exercise the option , to Irish citizenship and all the rights that conveys on you. As a British Subject, you would need a legal historian and thousands of pounds and several years to discover what rights you have living in London. Again not Brit bashing, but a statement of fact.
This is because Britain does not have a written constitution or Bill of Rights.
David Trimble and David Ervine, two men with whom I do not share a political viewpoint, nevertheless are in their own ways trying to resolve our mutual difficulties on this island. For that I salute and respect them . I also happen to believe that if Northerners of whatever persuasion need passports to visit certain parts of the World ( and believe me there are many) where the UK one would not be welcome, then so be it. That is what I for one voted for.
Following the recent events at Blackburn v Birmingham in the English Premiership and the racial taunts lobbed at Dwight Yorke, the English media's reaction to what happened in the above match has an air of pot calling kettle.... etc.
England , still has a lot of work to do, as of many of the rest of us in Europe, to get their house in order in terms of stamping out racism in football.
MikeNI
If as you say, and I have no reason to doubt you, that the efforts of FFA has largely eliminated sectarian chanting at Northern Ireland matches then that is to be commended. The FFA campaign may inadvertently have been helped by the Wee North's barren spell without either victories or goals which ended earlier this year under Lawrie Sanchez's reign.
P.S. Do you and the other basically decent fans of Northern Ireland have any connection with an organisation that existed in the 1990's called NIFSA?
Well as the song goes "if you know your history" You would realise that Irish Nationalism was actually first espoused by Ulster Presbyterians in the 18th Century. Which is why to hang the epithet Catholic and Protestant on the political divide is way too simplistic as there are some Catholic Unionists and Nationalist Protestants.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
Which is one of the many reasons why sectarianism is completely idiotic not to mention historically anachronistic if you go back far enough.
Have to agree with you my fellow UCD student. You've hit the nail on the head. Sectarianism is way too simplistic and generally reserved for those less well educated in society. Padraig Pearse once said as he stood on what was believed to be the grave of the Protestant leader, Theobald Wolfe Tone, "He was the greatest of Irish Nationaists; I believe he was the greatest of Irishmen, and if I am right in this I am right in saying that we stand on the holiest ground in Ireland."Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
The man that effectively created the idea of Irish republicanism was a Protestant.
Therefore, it can be dangerous to stereo-type. Perhaps one could argue that the link between Nationalism and Catholicism was inadvertedly introduced by Daniel O'Connell's politics in the eighteenth century.
Great posting CollegetilIdie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
As far as I can see the incident at Blackburn was covered quite extensively in the UK media, was acknowledged as been unacceptable and enquires have been started. Racism is alive and well in England as much as anywhere else but the FA and the clubs have made comendable efforts over the last 10-15 years to stamp in out in football grounds and seem to have been largely successful. The difference between what happened at Balckburn and Madrid is the scale of the incident and the numbers involved (it was two fans at Blackburn) and the non reaction of the Spanish FA to it. It was suggested by some that the chanting at the England game was a reaction of the Spanish fans to the vendetta by the English tabloids against their manager or even by some that it was English fans who were invloved. If that is the case then I assume that it was the Leverkusen fans who were chanting racial abuse at their own black players last night :rolleyes: .
IMO media attempts to blow all these events out of all proportion have been ludicrous.
Stuff at spanish game probably enhanced cos of english media coverage & the apparent strange opinions on what exactly racism is in Spain. English media moralising was funny given the racist chanting at England V Turkey last year.
The amount of disproportional coverage to the 2 english guys at Blackburn was laughable as was 2 guys from 30000 odd crowd :rolleyes:
I don't condone any of this stuff but coverage given in england is completely hypocritcial.
thsoe two fans in england went voluntarily to the police after the racist abuse..and they really think theyl get leniency for admitting to racism at a football match in an english court?
anyone see itv coverae last ight of real mierda agaisnt leverkusen at the bernabéu last night? who was the panelist charged with condemning the racist taunts of the ultras sur..none other than bobby robson :D pot kettle black etc
While it's nice to see you quantify what the progress you believe was made by FFA, the figure of 100 people leaves me confused. It was a hell of a lot more than 100 fans chanting sectarian (and racial) abuse at Irish players the two visits I made to WP (neither of which was the 'Night in November' of 1993). Perhaps you may dismiss this as 'international rivalry' but the abuse was as bad to your own RC players (let alone the Nationalists that the IFA are now attempting to recruit) as the Spanish monkey noises last week, had Spain fielded a couple of Black players themselves. The figure of 100 is perhaps the number who despise RCs - who play for Celtic and support an all-Ireland team - so badly, they'd even boo one if it was one of their own players.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
Thanks for that!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
And this is down purely to Football For All? :rolleyes: BTW, both the 'Twelfth' and the West Belfast Chuckyfest are described as having 'a carnival atmosphere', so don't know what you are implying by that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
Fanzines and websites? Do you mean ourweecountry and its fondness for referring to the Republic as beggars, Northern Republic fans as 'plastics' and prints an article about Irish fans stealing in Japan? If so, the sanctimonious double standards are as pathetic as anything British tabloids can come up with. Perhaps a fanzine like Arconada...Armstrong! (of which I read in the mid nineties) who at least kept this so-called 'rivalry' within human decency!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
A reporter! Economical with the truth? You dooooonn't say! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
While the booing may have stopped, other intimidation (phone calls, graffiti) continued. The point of showing this article was to point out the potential for a haemorrhaging of Northern Nationalist player support for the Northern team. Personally, I don't care about the article's content, but its self evident to a chimp that this sort of thing - from a 'loyalist' newspaper - is going to shake a few people up more than a meaningless slogan. .Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
Loyalist, Unionist! Pedantic for most Nationalists (and many Unionists). Are you suggesting that the Northern Ireland flag represents (and more importantly is seen to represent) Northern nationalists? Are you happy that the Irish (or as you prefer to call it the RoI) flag represents you as the colour on it specifically states? The Northern Ireland flag is a flag of unionism, just as the tricolour is the flag of Republicanism (north and south) and irredentism. What's the problem in stating the obvious?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
Yes meaningless! Did the IFA ban anyone from future matches after the Norway game? Was anyone 'named and shamed publicly? You said there was 100 people chanting. Not exactly hard to pick one or two out, especially as you say, a policy was in force to rid sectarianism. Finally, the IFA making a stand and hitting the rogue fans where it hurts. Or was it that the 100 fans either (as they were not football fans) returned to other pastimes or got the message from the media backlash that their own players were off limits (at least at WP)? Now little boy, if you want people to agree what a wonderful thing all this Football For All cojones is then, in the spirit of how you have addressed me, f*ck off back to those other morons on ourweeminds and you can all waffle on about beggars, tinkers, me, Davros and Tony Fearon and congratulate yourself on how much more liberal you are compared with the superprods! But before that, may I suggest a copy of Asian Wives and a handkerchief to calm yourself down! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
The group of Real fans at the Leverkusen game were utterly unashamedly defiant. It seemed to be as if how dare someone have the audacity to criticise us. There were tatooed topless beer bellied blokes does tons of fascist salutes show on TV. Disgraceful. Pigs indulging in totaly boorish behaviour. I hope Real make examples of them.
Quite simple. It was the approximate number of idiots booing Lennon.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
As I said, progess had been made even by 2001 from the time you talk of a decade ago. And much progress has been made since.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
No, I certainly don’t.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Down to FFA allied to the efforts of NI fans. And I mean a proper carnival atmosphere free of offesive or bigoted singing etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
You’ll be familiar with my writings then. I was a contributor to Acronada…Armstrong!Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
However what A…A! never was, was an ‘activist’ fanzine, it never ‘campaigned’ on the issue of sectarian singing - rather preferring to say that it didn’t agree with it and then concentrate on the footballing issues.
OWC was different - a few quotes from you back in the days before FFA, around 1999/2000:
“It took just over a minute for the Billy Boys to start up at the Finalnd game. It was suggested that those who were singing it with such gusto were doing it as a reaction against [OWC]. McMenemy didn’t help things by saying the crowd were the ‘12th man’. Yes it was a great atmosphere and we did get behind the team but does the sectarian chanting encourage the team? McMenemy and a couple of Catholic, even a couple of proddy players, should come out and appeal for an end to the sectarian chants. What about it Lawrie?”
“There is an element among the support at Windsor that seem to think following Norn Iron means having a ‘Prod-Fest’, conveniently forgetting of course, the management and half the team aren’t Prods. I’m as proud as the next man to be an Ulsterman, I make sure my Ulster flag travels everywhere with me when I follow Norn Iron. I know all the words to all the ‘party tunes’ by like my politics I leave them behind when I enter the ground. I support Norn Iron and I’m not going to sing a song wishing I was up to my knees in half the team’s blood…If the IFA got rid of 200 sectarian singers they would have no problem getting 2000 supporters to replace them.”
And another thing - you complain about these labels you have listed. For the record I don’t use them. But I note that on this wbsite and indeed even on this thread there is a liberal splattering of ‘Tans’, ‘Huns’, ‘Scum’, ‘Planters’ etc. People in glass houses and all that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
One idiot in a phone box. And neither the IFA nor NI supporters groups can do much about what some toerag paints on a wall.
Ireland on Sunday is a ‘loyalist’ newspaper?? And you keep saying ‘meaningless slogan’ - a hell of a lot of work went into that campaign and continues to go into it, why do you blithely dismiss this?Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Firstly, by referring to ‘loyalist flags’ this leaves it open to the reader’s imagination to think NI fans were waving, Orange Order flags, UDA flags, UVF flags etc. Why not just be accurate and say “NI flags”?Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Secondly, there’s the implication that there’s something wrong with NI fans using the NI flag.
Thirdly, I can’t imagine another country being treated in this way. Can you imagine for example the same reporter saying “David Humphries continues to play for Ireland despite the nationalist/republican flags”??
“Yes meaningless! Did the IFA ban anyone from future matches after the Norway game? Was anyone 'named and shamed publicly? You said there was 100 people chanting. Not exactly hard to pick one or two out, especially as you say, a policy was in force to rid sectarianism. Finally, the IFA making a stand and hitting the rogue fans where it hurts.”
Sadly stewarding at NI matches, and indeed all matches in NI (barring it seems Derry City who manage to do it quite professionally) is quite frankly of a pathetic standard. Yes the culprits should’ve been banned.
However to claim that the elimination of sectarian singing is ‘meaningless’ beggars (forgive my turn of phrase) belief. Why complain about its presence if its removal is ‘meaningless’?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
Whereas Rangers up till the 1980s had a policy of not signing Catholics, Linfield didn’t have such a policy officially. They had many Catholic players in their history but from the 19060s till the late 80s didn’t have any - their supporters argue that because of the political situation in NI Catholics couldn’t sign for Linfield. As for the Glens and Crusaders, they certainly have never operated a sectarian policy a la Rangers. Both have had some problems in the past with sectarianism among the support, though it is Linfield who have had and to some extent continue to have a problem with Superprod hangers-on.[/quote]
I went along to a few NIFSA meetings - it was led by a Glentoran and NI fan. Unfortunately NIFSA collapsed due to lack of support. The Irish League Supporters Association was set up last year - again I’ve attended ILSA meetings but it hasn’t met with a great response either and has been basically dormant since last season. For whatever reason, while NI fans can organise themselves, and IL fans can participate in their own supporters clubs, when it comes to supporting an organisation promoting IL fans interests there’s widespread apathy, which is a shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
I’m not sure I know what you’re referring to here. At Cardiff, Hartson got very little abuse of any sort. I think any ‘Old Firm’ based abuse is wrong but surely you wouldn’t differentiate it from RoI fans booing Rangers players?Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
My apologies, that was rude. And out of character, I assure you. I've clearly been influenced by the foul-mouted English posters on here. But still...Quote:
Feel free to disagree with my postings but do not resort to personal insults
Where to start? Correct me if wrong, but the first quote seems to be your oft-repeated suggestion here, that coming from a Protestant family gives you some special insight into unionist thinking or whatever. So that you don't need to back up the cartoon Provo catchphrases with any evidence. Am I right?Quote:
these vile practices,which are allegedly representative of my community,FFS
recent evidence seems to show,you for one,are endeavouring to do the latter
wait for the Prison Service cover-up. Another small nail,in cross-cultural relations.....
the 'T*ns'......this is due to their continual double-standards,of which criticism remains apt
The vast majority of Celtic/Irish fans are not racist...whereas 15-20% minimum,of [England and Rangers fans] people who would go to games,are overtly racist
This doesn't excuse racism elsewhere.....which is all relative...this must be put into perspective!
I don't need to start to integrate- I've been quite happy to live in NI, the Republic and England at different times. No general problems with any of them.
In the Mubarek case, it would be sensible not to throw out the allegations about serious crimes, just in case Blunkett is reading...
Constant references to Tans and Scum are simply answering one set of abuse and double standards with another, eh?
You offer no evidence for those figures. They're just empty prejudice.
Events in Spain are being put into perspective. Most are suggesting they play one or a few games to closed doors- the punishment is appropriate, even if other fans did worse 11 years ago and were let off. And that Luis Aragones should resign. I doubt even his vicar on foot.ie, Lopez Arrogantes, would have much of a problem with that.
Well, I've no brief for England nor anti-Spain and they're the worst I've heard since the mid 90s.Quote:
what happened in spain was wrong but listening to england fans on tv saying it is the worst thing they have seen in years
Well saidQuote:
BOTH incidents are/were appalling and should NEVER be tolerated in our society
Evidence? I notice you ignore my question before going off at this tangent. You're obsessive, son!Quote:
With regards to the IFA this is the kind of conflict of interests that occurs when there are four bodies from one country.
In such an atmosphere I don't think that an accusation of screws exposing Mubarek to 'violent assault' is libellous.
Where's the thread on Aragones and Henry?
Ahh the 'B' word. Wondered when that was going to make an entrance
What was that you were saying about no one lecturing me here on racism
You are wrong. That's no defence against libel.
This is the thread about Aragones and Henry. Do try and keep up.
Yes, the b-word, when used sparingly. You'd be an expert on that, eh?
No-one had when I wrote that. Anyway you're overreacting to one comment by Conor.
Mike NI explains the background to improved atmosphere at NI games (in itself acknowledged by Lopez on previous threads) very well. He might suggest I'm a bit too pessimistic about problems recurring?
Adding to what Mike said, the founders of NIFSA included David (Glentoran) and Stephen (Cliftonville). Both are still active in the local game even though the former now works in England.
Davros old chap, you're by far the most pompous, self-righteous poster here. Even more than Lopez 'some of my best friends are black' Arrogantes :)
Conor- even closer to home you could have mentioned Matty Holland?
Morning Mike. Nice to see that you've calmed down a bit today!
Perhaps this is a bit unfair, but it was a question rather than an allegation. For instance many people will dismiss the same language towards opposition players as legitimate banter while their own is out of order.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
I've seen the new WP. Yes the atmosphere is fantastic (no sarcasm intended) but it does not mean that sectarianism has been eradicated should certain events arise (visit of the Republic, a NI player who plays for Celtic, a player with political leanings in his spare time towards a party led by a bloke with a beard).Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
Found issue May '96 this morning although I'm sure I had others. I had brief dealings with Dr. Wa who sent me a copy when he started up when I edited a fanzine and I gave A...A! a review.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
Looking at (just one issue of) the fanzine now, that's true. However, neither did it stoke up sectarianism.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
And then they allow the aforementioned article to be published. It's one thing that individuals use various insults on a message board, another for the web site/fanzine to sanction an article. Arguing that the article had nothing to do with them is laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
I'm not trying to get English people to go to Irish games. Neither do I want people who consider themselves English to play for Ireland. Neither does the website organisers agree with what I'm saying. It's just that there is more acceptance of people's views here by them, both yours and mine. If I came onto OWC and started kicking off the way you (and the two clowns at the beginning of the year) did I'd be banned quicker than I could say 'Football For All.'Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
Yes one idiot (or someone with a vested interest in forcing Lennon out (ie: a Taig) but with 100 fans agreeing with his intention.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
Isn't it part of the Belfast Telegraph group?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
Michael Boyd (like the British sanctimonious tabloids) should show a little more humility when talking about this subject. He wouldn't have wanted WP shut down for the sake of 100 people or the far greater number abusing the Republic players in 1994 and neither can I presume, would you. Surely he would be better suited in saying: 'We have made great strides in eliminating sectarianism and bigotry from our games. I am getting in touch with the FEF in conjunction with UEFA and FIFA and briefing them on the ideas, strategies and schemes that have helped bring back a carnival atmosphere to Windsor Park.' (I should be in PR :D ) But instead he goes all high and mighty while there is no concrete proof that sectarianism will not return in his own domain.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
It is accurate to equate the NI flag with unionism, however you have a point about other flags. These are absent from NI games although they make more than a fleeting appearance at the Scum's games.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
I disagree with it being wrong to bring NI flags to NI games. But what's the problem with bringing flags that represent both communities to NI games, apart from the old rubbish that the Irish tricolour being the flag of just the 26 counties. It means more than that to Northern nationalists.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
NI flags have been flown at rugby games, so David Humphries does not play exclusively in front of tricolours.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
And this is where FFA fails. As I've said, I don't blame the IFA themselves for bigotry and I'll explain why. They operated for year's under a regime that encouraged sectarian discrimination in all public areas. It needed the initiative for eliminating sectarianism to come from outside (fans, media, sponsorship) otherwise it risked alienating many of its own fans. The lack of any legislation (as there is in Britain and Ireland) for inciting hatred may be absent from NI (unless that incitement comes from waving the Irish tricolour and other 'flags' and 'emblems'). The presence of a lack of this kind of sanction undermines that FFA was responsible for the reduction in sectarianism and that this reduction could have been down to other factors like the press, UEFA threats, RC players threatening to withdraw from the side and as you state peer pressure from other fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
I never said that the elimination of sectarianism was meaningless, just that this particular programme is not as successful as you claim. Davros, for all his winding-up, makes the statement that sectarianism cannot be eliminated if it is rampant in the wider society. Since the GFA the division of RCs and Protestants has some ways increased (the Holy Cross incident the most high profile). In such a society it's dangerous for someone like Boyd to get complacent.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
I presume you mean me and Sylvo (Davros was born in Ireland) although with your perception of what is 'English' any newly arrived tourist would be given citizenship whether they wanted it or not. Is that the best you can do? I'm dissapointed. :( Even Dog Sh*te and Marcellus came up with far more imaginative 'insults' than you. Take Mike's copy of Asian Wives and get yourself off to the nearest toilet, ASAP!Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
[QUOTE=Duncan Gardner]My apologies, that was rude. And out of character, I assure you. I've clearly been influenced by the foul-mouted English posters on here. But still...
DG, come on, a man of your caliber can do better then that. Your not going to get all jealous now because of some of us being born in Britain and you were'nt. ;)
Cyber rucking aside, i've got a guide book for Poland, don't know if yer having a couple of days over there but if you are i'll bring it along on the 16th.
No, I mean you and Davros. The witless abuse being key, not the Englishness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopez
Indeed- as above I'm not complacent, and I don't think Mike nor most other NI fans are either. NI is a volatile society and that won't change overnight.Quote:
Yes the atmosphere is fantastic...but it does not mean that sectarianism has been eradicated
As I've said before here, I disagree with that article, wouldn't have posted and suggested to others that they remove it. But I doubt the distinction is hard and fast as you claim. You've posted a good deal of abuse on here, barely any of it has been removed. That reflects on the site as well as you, as I've explained at length previously.Quote:
It's one thing that individuals use various insults on a message board, another for the web site/fanzine to sanction an article
The first two points are irrelevant if you're using them as an excuse for the witless abuse. The third may be true, but allowing personal abuse to remain on the site suggests otherwise, does it not?Quote:
I'm not trying to get English people to go to Irish games. Neither do I want people who consider themselves English to play for Ireland. Neither does the website organisers agree with what I'm saying
I doubt that- others, just as rude as you and including plenty expressing nationalist views- stay on. I imagine many on OWC would say 'let the muppet reveal his own prejudices', or similar.Quote:
If I came onto OWC and started kicking off the way you (and the two clowns at the beginning of the year) did I'd be banned quicker than I could say 'Football For All'
Of course if I was the moderator, you'd be censored. You know why.
No, the phone call was from Rathcoole, an area sadly unwelcoming to 'Taigs'. Assume the caller was a unionist.Quote:
Yes one idiot (or someone with a vested interest in forcing Lennon out (ie: a Taig)
No. That's the Sunday Life. Ireland on Sunday is RoI based.Quote:
Isn't it part of the Belfast Telegraph group?
He hasn't been anywhere as sanctimonious as you- even if it was easy to say, his opinion is mainstream, shared by an unholy alliance including El Pais, Marca, most British and Irish papers, Davros and Blatter!Quote:
But instead he goes all high and mighty while there is no concrete proof that sectarianism will not return in his own domain
He (Boyd) knows perfectly well that were similar events to occur in Belfast in future, closure of Windsor is a possibility. Don't forget we have plenty of experience of this, in living memory...
No, legislation is similar, though not identical. This summary is useful,Quote:
The lack of any legislation (as there is in Britain and Ireland) for inciting hatred may be absent from NI)
http://www.nio.gov.uk/rcsummary.pdf
I'll admit that's one of the more coherent parts of his 'argument'- faint praise, eh- but the obvious answer is that he's using the presence of sectarianism to, er, justify sectarianism of his own. Something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, that.Quote:
Davros, for all his winding-up, makes the statement that sectarianism cannot be eliminated if it is rampant in the wider society
Arrogant as I am, I bow to the presence of the master...Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
Thank you. Look forward to the party!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvo
Well I can see the reference to my 'Englishness' but why Davros? Born in Ireland, two non-English parents. Besides, is his or my 'witless abuse' to do with living with English so long? Tad ironic also that you feel the need to do an 'Aragones' and flavour an insult with an adjective pertaining to ethnicity/nationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Agreed by everyone here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Perhaps it does, but I doubt it! This is a messageboard - not a fanzine. I edited a fanzine and I would not sanction articles that insult if I did not agree with them. I never posted gossip about any player of the Scum who was gay because I didn't agree with outing homosexuals even if they did a Michael Portillo. I did about a certain player snorting Cocaine and published the gossip (the same player was plastered over The Scum a month later).Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Disagree. They are relevant. If an Irish rugby fanzine hailed Ireland's Ulster players one minute then followed up with anti-British abuse the next it smacks of hypocrisy. As I've said, I'm not encouraging English people to either follow or play for Ireland although if that's what takes their fancy and they don't behave like some of their fellow countrymen, then that's fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
As you'd say pull the other one. Well the point about the muppet and his prejudices is a good one because that is the reason you'll never see men engage in chit-chat on OWM. I too prefer to see the muppets there continue to wallow in their own prejudices. Seeing your reaction to my post on Wednesday (even emailing me with comments about my Englishness) though not directed at you, the account would be closed in no time. I hit a few sore spots with FFA, backed up with evidence. I also told Mike to F*ck off because he had resorted to swearing at me. Don't like it? OWM is there for you instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Of course I assumed the caller was a 'unionist.' Tell that to the posters (including the Army groupie) who thinks that RC involvement was possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Apologies there. But there were other articles in the BT papers that were equally damning and some would suggest economical with the truth. Eg:R.I.P - NI football: Is this the legacy we want to leave future generations? Sunday Life 25 August 2002. The article states with the usual melodramatic crap of its mainland counterparts that: 'First they drove away the Catholic supporters, then most of the Protestant supporters. Then they threatened to kill a Catholic player and soon no Catholics wanted to play for us ever again.' Who? 'Protestants? But why would Protestants want to destroy Northern Ireland football?' Bit of a generalisation and as we both know false, but one from a unionist paper - no doubt looking to take ground from IoS or other nationalist rags. There's more if that is insufficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
The mainstream view is that racism is unacceptable. Also plenty of people agree with my view that its laughable that the Tans are getting all hot and bothered about monkey noises when they gave the world this disgusting chant. Take this: 'The biggest thing for me is the hypocrisy of the people who were around 10 or 15 years ago when this was going on in English football. Why weren't they saying anything then? (John Motson or whoever was commentating on the England v Holland game of 1988 who claimed Gullit was just being barracked, perhaps?) Is it just politically correct to be doing it now? And the problem runs much deeper than just chanting. So deep, it's almost unfathomable...all racists have to do is keep their mouth shut for 90 minutes and they're fine. It's good that people are talking about it, but it's how they're talking. Let's not believe that we are much better in this country.' Any guesses for who wrote that in last Sunday's Observer? Clue: He's not a sanctimonious pr*ck whose own experience of racism is a couple of Kerryman jokes, but he did once manage (f*cking woefully if I remember, but Davros will fill you in on that one) that great racist club with its racist support whose name we dare not mention here unless it's to slag it off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Unfortunately I'm getting patches of the pdf (something wrong with my computer). If you are claiming that anti-sectarian legislation already existed then why didn't the IFA hit the supporters with expulsion and possibly prosecution as Blackburn Rovers did this week? One simple act and then it would be impossible then to suggest that the IFA's Football For All was meaningless. Fear of fan backlash? Fear of paramilitary backlash? Or just that FFA was all talk and little action. Anyway Boyd himself disagrees and claims in http://www.totalfootballmagazine.com/4all.html that: 'In Scotland the Government are now actively supporting Rangers and Celtic in their initiatives to tackle sectarianism. A cross party Bigotry Task Force has been set up to address the issues and formulate new legislation to support the clubs in their battle against bigotry...It would be great if the "Football For All" campaign in Northern Ireland were getting similar support.' This suggests that the law is currently poor on prosecution although as a private establishment the IFA could in conjunction with Linfield FC have thrown out who they liked from WP that day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
BTW, when I meant the Prison Service I did not mean Blunkett and co. sanctions putting prisoners at risk. Thought that was obvious! Neither did the FEF sanction the monkey chants in Madrid but that hasn't stopped you claiming they're responsible for it. Libel? I can't wait!
is his or my 'witless abuse' to do with living with English so long? Tad ironic also that you feel the need to do an 'Aragones' and flavour an insult with an adjective pertaining to ethnicity/nationality
Do keep up. I explained the abuse was key, not the Englishness. I don't know why you're both so abusive- merely trying to persuade you to back off. It was just a cheap dig- though not quite as crude as yours passim, nor your incoherent protege's.
Perhaps it does, but I doubt it! This is a messageboard - not a fanzine
I don't doubt it (ie, that abusive posters reflect on the site as a whole). They're not qualitatively different. What was your mag called? I might have read it.
Disagree. They are relevant
They aren't. You're using your claimed lack of hypocrisy justifies ranting abusively. It doesn't. You refer to completely separate issues, but in any case abuse should be condemned per se.
Seeing your reaction to my post on Wednesday (even emailing me with comments about my Englishness) though not directed at you, the account would be closed in no time. I hit a few sore spots with FFA, backed up with evidence
Disagree- you'd probably be tolerated unless I was back in the censor's chair. Unprovable either way, perhaps.While you clearly riled Mike, I don't buy your dismissal of FFA as meaningless (and nor do you, I suspect). The evidence that it's meaningful is pretty obvious in the improved atmosphere at games. Like you, I probably would have named and shamed. Only after discussion with m'learned friends, though...
If I wasn't censoring, it's a complete non sequitur for you to assume you'd be kicked off. My reference to your Englishness has touched more of a raw nerve than I expected- I thought a tough nut like you would laugh it off. Lighten up, man.
Tell that to the posters (including the Army groupie) who thinks that RC involvement was possible
Oh, I have.
the usual melodramatic crap of its mainland counterparts
Agreed. The Bellylaugh papers aren't my local favorites- the Irish News news coverage is better. Since I've been reading it, the BT has gained a larger nationalist readership, partly by a deliberately anodyne line on party politics. They've been helped by the long-term parochial nature of the Irish media- readers in Belfast and Cork prefer their own papers, or even the Brit tabloids, to relying on those from Dublin.
its laughable that the Tans are getting all hot and bothered about monkey noises when they gave the world this disgusting chant
For God's sake man, give over about the bloody 'Tans' for a minute. Do you really think the entire English nation is forever prevented from criticising racism? Or that those with racist attitudes can't overcome them? Generalised and unduly negative both.
he did once manage (f*cking woefully if I remember, but Davros will fill you in on that one) that great racist club with its racist support whose name we dare not mention here unless it's to slag it off
I saw him last month- playing tennis in Paddington Park. Weak backhand. His comments are fair.
If you are claiming that anti-sectarian legislation already existed then why didn't the IFA hit the supporters with expulsion and possibly prosecution as Blackburn Rovers did this week
I imagine two of the reasons you suggested- fear of reaction from some fans and politicians (using the latter term loosely). Legislation is defintely in place.
Anyway Boyd himself disagrees... [and] suggests that the law is currently poor on prosecution, although as a private establishment the IFA could in conjunction with Linfield FC have thrown out who they liked from WP that day
I'm confident existing laws are sufficient (even I'm not completely censorious!). Agreed action against the 'Lennon 100' was inadequate, and as you hint Boyd is a little disingenuous. As a spokesman for the IFA, he/they could have pushed a prosecution.
BTW, when I meant the Prison Service I did not mean Blunkett and co. sanctions putting prisoners at risk
Never said you did. I was merely advising against blaming the unknown screw, instead of Stewart or at a pinch Blunkett, for Mubarek's murder.
Neither did the FEF sanction the monkey chants in Madrid but that hasn't stopped you claiming they're responsible for it. Libel? I can't wait!
They're responsible only in the broad sense that crimes were allegedly committed at an event administered by them. They would be punished in the similarly broad sense that the public would be excluded, and thus their income reduced, from a future, similar event. And hints in the Spanish media suggest they will accept this, as I said. Nothing I said about the FEF could be considered libellous- unlike your comments about Feltham.
Passim this. Where have I referred to you in such terms? Eg: 'Orange' (put in here any number of terms of abuse).Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
On The One Road. Limited circulation ('The London Irish Fanzine' it was subtitled) but I was told it was a top seller by the boys at Sportspages (I rarely got any returns).Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Yeah, yeah. It's a non whatever to presume you will ever have to worry about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Lordy, the scales from my eyes have fallen. After my formative years were spent with my neighbours and their parents, teachers, and nearly all of my school colleagues pointing out the difference in me from them (much of it abusive), your kind words changes everything. I feel like Winston Smith in the final scene of 1984: 'I gaze up at the St George's cross. Fourty years it has taken me to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath that flag. Oh cruel, needless misunderstanding. Oh stubborn self-willed exile from the loving breast! But it is alright, everything is alright, the struggle is finished. I have won the victory over myself. I love David Beckham!' (Cue gin-scented tears to trickle down my face). :rolleyes: It's hilarious. And you being so faux liberal about Aragones too. As Davros would put it: Pompous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
And is that why you are no longer a mod on OWM? Did you also tell Dog Sh*te off about calling us Scum for allowing people the right to play for their country? Don't remember that on the thread that he ran about the article on OWM. I do remember Army Groupie and Marcellus trying to turn me over on here (and looking like a couple of w*nkers in the process) while you went about complaining to dahamsta about getting me censored. Now OK, I might not agree with my 'incoherent protege' all the time and him likewise with me, and we both might keep quiet about it on here. But I'd be damned if I'd go on OWM to stand up for him if I disagreed with his remarks about 'integrate or...' nor would I seek to get anyone taking him to task censored. More 'pomposity,' er.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
What's the problem DG? Why so upset about this so-called Brit-bashing (where's the reference to Wales and Scotland as scum)? I could understand it if it was PP or Pat O'Banton (or anyone with English partners or relatives) who were taking it personally. But not you. Save the mock disgust, mate. You wouldn't be upset if I went on about the Germans as Krauts, nor if I stated that the FAI were scum who the IFA should have nothing to do with (copyright: Dog Breath). Is it as Sylvo says? You feel inadequate that you weren't born in England and therefore merely a Plastic Brit because of it. And angry that I was born in England and yet I threw away what you consider is the winning ticket in the lottery of nationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Criticising? No. I'm sure I told you about the skinhead from school (responsible for the aforementioned broken teeth of a Pakistani who had moved out to the Hertfordshire tranquillity from bad old Thornton Heath) I saw in later years in Gateway one day, so yes racists sometimes do reform. Lecturing? The tans can f*ck off out of it. Latest laugh I've had is some Labour spin doctor telling the Germans to stop talking about the war. You couldn't make it up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Bar the pro-Spanish bias and the reference to the scum and tans (abuse as you label it all), I've said the same over the last week. He used to live not far from where I lived in the eighties/early nineties - always saw him early Monday morning in the Tans' track suit and a bag with JB in large letters (obviously keeping a low profile) at the station making his way up to Merseyside. Perhaps that's why we agree on so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
And so I rest my case re FFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
BTW: Tales from The Underground still visible at http://www.ourweecountry.co.uk/worldcup02.html . They sure take a lot of notice of you, mate! :D :D
Where have I referred to you in such terms?
You haven't described me as English scum, ta. I don't have to be personally targetted to be irritated by abuse.
On The One Road. Limited circulation ('The London Irish Fanzine' it was subtitled) but I was told it was a top seller by the boys at Sportspages
Yes, I remember reading it- a good mag. Any archive copies in the loft?
It's a non whatever...passim this
Sorry for the Latin namedropping. Give Jus sanguinis my regards...
your kind words changes everything
My pleasure, yer sarky bugger
Did you also tell Dog Sh*te off about calling us Scum for allowing people the right to play for their country?
Yes, repeatedly. My attitude is clear and oft-stated,
a) if nationalists or unionists in NI want to support RoI, or anyone else, that's fine
b) personal abuse and libels should be deleted from web boards
But I'd be damned if I'd go on OWM to stand up for him if I disagreed with his remarks about 'integrate or...' nor would I seek to get anyone taking him to task censored. More 'pomposity,' er
Guilty as charged. But since you're as self-righteous as I am, and he's far worse, what of it?
Why so upset about this so-called Brit-bashing...save the mock disgust, mate.
Because it's often abusive, and as so repetitive over hundreds of threads, tiresome. It's irritation, not disgust. I've heard a lot worse.
You wouldn't be upset if I went on about the Germans as Krauts
I'd be equally irritated.
Is it as Sylvo says? You feel inadequate that you weren't born in England
I only feel slightly disappointed that I wasn't born in Turkey, travelling there aged two months. But hey, I'm over it.
The tans can f*ck off out of it
What, all 50 million of them? Yawn.
And so I rest my case re FFA
It continues even if your case doesn't. Never mind, I'm sure we can find summat else to discuss.
They sure take a lot of notice of you, mate!
Alas, a voice in the wilderness can be a difficult job sometimes :)
You've written plenty of libellous stuff
Quote it, then.
Everyone knows Mubarek was a racist murder...ask Alex
Indeed. I acknowledge it was a racist murder. My point, made quite clearly, was that throwing about general accusations that the Prison Service/ Home Office was responsible for the murder, was libellous.
I haven't described you as British scum either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Muchas gracias! It needed more of your like (sarky rather than orange buggers) to beef it up a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Oh touché.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
That's the aim of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Pull the other one, Hans!Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
And you'd be selling kebabs now while on the minimum wage? I wouldn't count on being born in Turkey would make you Turkish. Countries in that region are notorious for a spot of 'jus sanguinis.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Just the sanctimonious ones and those that watch 'I'm a celebrity...' Good night and sweet dreams!Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Zzzzz :D
Just a further pointer on the Prison Service and its attitude towards non natives. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...640931,00.html . There are further alligations by former prisioners that there are more to some of the deaths then suicide.
Does Judy Clements comments exonerate the good Senor?
The Irish Chaplancy for Overseas Prisoners and Irish Deaths in Custody do a lot of good work around these issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopez
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Times, April 2003
No. Lopez accuses the prison staff of, effectively, conspiracy to murder. At the very least I think you'd agree that's over the top?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat O'Banton
Can't download quotes from the Irish World as I do not have PDF but I seem to remember Irish prisoners accusing members of the prison service of exactly that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
You are right DG. This is me going over the top. Not because I think this is untrue but that I stated it without having evidence and just on my own opinion in regards to racism in British society being more than just footballers being abused. Proving such an allegation is going to be difficult, but then libel is also difficult to prove (rich man's sport and all that). I could argue that this is 'fair comment'. That the evidence suggests that Asian put in with racist suggests neglect or malice. It's all depressing to think that there are still these allegations when the Police (in London at least) have made great strides in ridding its 'institutionally' racist tag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
Recently interviewed on Newstalk106 an Irish born ex London Policeman.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
Says the force is populated by a lot of BNP and Combat 18 types.
In spite of efforts to make the training sensitive to minorities and other ethnic groupings in England, it seems to have failed . The trainees are told by their supervisors, when they arrive to work for the first time" ignore all that crap , this is how it is done!". Officers frequently distribute racist literature from the BNP and Combat 18 without any sanctions.
And without resort to Asian Babes I may add! Been a few days since I've been on but here goes...Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I think if the Republic were to visit, there could potentially be some of the problems of old, but not on anything like the same scale as yesteryear. And as a point of order, the last time a Celtic player played for NI, Neil Lennon against the Czech Republic, there were no problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
First issue the good doctor gave me my own column rather than being just another letter writer!Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Having met the writer concerned, he's most definitely not a bigot. Pretty scathing of the DUP and the religios influence in NI society, as it happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
[quote=lopez]
I'm not trying to get English people to go to Irish games. Neither do I want people who consider themselves English to play for Ireland.[/lopez]
There's a few Englishmen on the RoI team though. And indeed a fair smattering of English people supporting the RoI. BTW I don't think anyone's insulting people who we want to support NI either.
All I'm arguing about is defending the record of the FFA campaign. If you went on OWC to argue the FAI was being unfairly criticised, I don't think you'de be banned, far from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I accept what you say up to a point as it's not a good idea to be preeaching about what isn't a parallel situation. Though I think saying "There is no concerte proof sectarianism will not return" is disingenuous - not only can you not 'prove' a negative, you can't 'prove' anything that may or may not happen in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
By the way I'm not entirely sure 'local' bigotries should necessarily be treated in exactly the same way as 'universal' bigotries such as anti-black racism. For example, it would be a tough one to say UEFA should treat the various reported ethnic 'tenions' (to repsort to a euphemism) at the recent Bosnia-Serbia match the same as monkey noises aimed at black players.
[quote=lopez]
I disagree with it being wrong to bring NI flags to NI games. But what's the problem with bringing flags that represent both communities to NI games, apart from the old rubbish that the Irish tricolour being the flag of just the 26 counties. It means more than that to Northern nationalists. [/lopez]
I wouldn't go along with it simply because the flag is there to represent the state not my community. It would be ludicrous to represent NI with not only the NI flag but that of the RoI (yes I know to northern nationalists it's their flag but as far as international law and indeed international football go, it's the flag of the RoI). Of course I know nationalists wouldn't identify with the NI flag and maybe NI should have a new one, though that's a matter for the politicians. By the way, I wouldn't want someone to bring a Union Flag to NI matches either (and it is actually the official flag of NI).
Would you want Turkish flags alongside Cyprus flags at Cyprus matches? Palestinian flags alongside Israeli flags at Israel matches? Serbian flags alongside Bosnia flags at Bosnia matches?
I don't think that's accurate. THe IFA didn't do much because they were a bunch of old grey men plagued by inertia and incompetence.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
As Duncan says, there is incitement to hatred legislation in NI. And the Flags and Emblems Act has been gone for many years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I think the eradication of sectarianism was competely 100% down to the efforts of fans allied with the official FFA campaign. The iodiots who sang sectarian songs would in no way have been influenced by criticism in the papers or by 'UEFA threats' (which as far as I can remember didn't exist).Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Considering the state of Northern Irish society, I think this just shows the extent of the achievement at NI matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Another thing I should point out is that FFA hasn't just been concerned with the 'sectarian' issue - it has also been about getting women, the disabled and those with learning difficulties involed in football. THere are now several disabled/learning difficulty NI teams. Also, crucially at a time when ethnic minorities face problems with acceptance in NI society, there has been some important work among minority ethnic communities and asylum seekers. The cheering to the rafters of the NI Chinese team at half-time during a recent match for example could also serve asmessage to certain people not a million miles away.
Tut tut, who hasn't been reading the Good Friday Agreement: "the birthright of all of the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose." :)Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
Mike, I wouldnt even try arguing with them.
Just start getting your excuses in order after City turn ye over in the Setanta Cup. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
Do you think the mosiac report has made an improvement then to mr Police man's dealing with the black and Asian community?
Asian Babes is for the less mature palate, but I get your drift.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
I disagree. I think the Republic's visit would be a major problem. Not only from the knobheads on your side of the 'political divide' but on ours. An open sale of tickets with a large intake from Belfast nationalists supporting the Republic would inevitably lead to trouble. With this in mind and even with the return to normality, I can't see both associations agreeing to taking up their normal ticket allocations (or playing the other's anthems) at a future game.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
A fanzine editor's dream. Always good when someone offers decent copy to take the workload off you.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
Well as they say: 'One man's bigot is another man's moderate.' I'm sure there are numerous people who would claim I'm not a bigot but that isn't going to wash with you, DG nor the residents of OWC. Save the anti-clericalism as a sign of moderateness. The conflict in NI - despite the intervention of some of the Bob Jones graduates - is about nationalism not religion. Religion gets the blame - certainly on this side of the Irish sea - for the troubles while good ol' nationalism doesn't get a mention. In a way OWC is a mirror of the republican philosophy. We don't hate Protestants: Just their culture and desire to be British. Hence the beard's: 'They're our people.' Meaning they're Irish whether they like it or not and a desire to be British is treason. Replace Protestants with Catholics and British with Irish and you have the same with some of the posters on OWC.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
Well I'm not going to argue about some of the players that have played for Ireland, but I doubt that the fans with English accents or having being born in England would consider themselves English. It's not being 'treacherous', 'Brit-bashing', etc. Most of us have two Irish parents. If we were 2G Italians or Asians there'd be no problem. And besides the automatic connection between birth and nationality was dumped by the British government in 1981. Something to do with too many blacks in the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
As for insulting people who want to support the North, then I disagree. The implication is that NI catholics are supporting the Republic because they are glory-hunters and that they are treacherous. With such a fickle community of Sports fans, the Kerry, Dublin and Meath Gaelic football team must have had great support in the North prior to the recent Ulster dominance? There wasn't. Following the Republic is a reaction to the bigotry at NI games and a rejection of the Union. As a kid I followed Northern Ireland in the Home Internationals as an Irish team. Many others would agree with me here. It was only the connection with anti-nationalism that made me stop.
Many NI fans - perhaps most - accept this but there are some still left that find it hard to stomach. The placement of British Army paraphernalia - responsible for the death of 148 nationalist civilians between 1969 and 1989 (25 Protestants killed in the same period) - on the OWC home page by the editor at the beginning of GW2 is the best example of this.
Well I'm not a great fan of the FAI. I used to produce a spoof letter from an A Moron every issue which was particularly scathing, but I take your point. Anyway, the way you are putting your arguments at the moment - without abuse - is welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
True, I can't prove the future but I can certainly play Devil's advocate. For the clues you need to look around at society in Ireland. For instance have the 'peace' lines disappeared? Are there mixed council estates where people live together in relative harmony as they do in London or Manchester?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
To a certain extent these should be made exceptions. But also the associations themselves need to take responsibility with the matches themselves. Italy playing Slovenia in Trieste a couple of years ago was as plain stupid as the IFA moving a match with the South to Derry or Portadown. Giving an allocation to visiting supporters is another. On the other hand it lets the Scum off the hook for what happened here in 1995. Nor should 'domestics' (as with Lennon and Anton Rogan before him) be excused either.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
I think in the case of Cyprus and Bosnia, Why not? Although it might not work, the idea that it promoted some form of unity - if only for 90 minutes - is welcome, no? Ditto for the Irish rugby team, where (as I've said I've seen NI flags there) it works among its supporters. The team is representative of two communities or nations, whatever way you look at it. It should be represented as thus, with both the NI (or Fitzgerald saltire to represent the British 'tradition' throughout Ireland not just in the 6C or Ulster) and the tricolour at it's games. I've also been to a few Spain matches and there's always an acceptance of regional flags. Ireland's visit to Seville witnessed numerous Green and White Andalusian flags being flown in both ends. Basque and Catalan flags are also regularly seen at their games, even though these flags are both hijacked by separatists. I would have thought that people getting behind the team is the most important thing regardless of what flag they bring along.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
It's ironic that I'm defending the IFA here. I've been reading a history of the Irish in Glasgow and it mentions Pat Crerand accusing the SFA of picking Rangers players ahead of other players (Catholics) of superior quality. Can you state where this has happened with the IFA? One thing is amateurs or second-rate businessmen out of their depth. Another is bigotry as personified in the future NI prime minister, Basil Brooke's, 1933 and 1934 speeches at Newtownbutler, Derry and Enniskillen in which he urged 'loyalists' only employ Protestants. I don't think the IFA ever followed his advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
There have been 'disabled' representative teams for a long time but I think these were on all on an 32C basis. The Irish deaf football team came second in the World at the 1989 World Deaf Games (Britain won) and was captained by a bloke from (I think) Fermanagh called Niall Fearon. I met him on a few occasions as he worked in the City of London and he was once with another player from the team who was a Protestant from the North. Besides 'Football For All' should be more than filling WP.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNI
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by davros
In 2000 there were 600,000 people resident in the Republic who hold British passports the vast majority of whom hold Irish passports as well.
Loads of Irish people are dual nationals of other countries as well.
Irish-Australian, Irish-South African etc.
Indeed many people hold more than two nationalities. Margaret hussan who was so recently brutually murdered in Iraq was a joint Irish, British and Iraqi citizen.
I have to say I find it astonishing that 15% of the Republics population hold Irish/British - Dual nationalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
Im not saying I don't believe it, just would never have guessed it - do you have a source to your stats. (By the way Dav I know you haven't so I won't bother asking you!! :D )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
Well for instance of the ten other people where I work, three hold dual nationality. There is a reference here
They are all people whose parents had moved from Ireland to Britain.
Approximately 100 Irish people living in Britain take out British citizenship every year. In the 60's it was about 700 a year.
Actually for those people who feel in their heart and soul they are British check out