Gibraltar (H) - Sat, 11th Oct. / Germany (A) - Tues, 14th Oct.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

We badly need a Roy Keane figure in the locker room to force us to believe we can hang with these teams. Enough of this poxy, lily-livered attitude that has seen us go over 10 years without beating a half-decent team in competitive football.

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"A Roy Keane figure" - the same man who presided over 10 league defeats in 14 matches for Ipswich, a sequence which resulted in his team dropping to 19th place in the Championship table. Yes we need that type of figure ok.

Over the past 10 years (excluding the last two) (in fact I'd say 20 years) we have way out performed your heroes in Scotland and Norn Iron (who lost at home to Luxembourg recently I think). Our record against the bigger teams as regards wins is not great ok but it has nothing to do with attitude. What we have done (excluding the past couple of years) consistently is beat our lessers, equal our equals and equal/lose to our betters. If every team can do this we'll qualify for tournaments or be there or there about. I have never seen an Irish team roll over except arguably against Italy/Spain in Poland countries and Germany in Dublin (due mostly to errors for every goal), all nearing the end of Trap's reign.

I am not sure what you mean about our boys in Paris?

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

"A Roy Keane figure" - the same man who presided over 10 league defeats in 14 matches for Ipswich, a sequence which resulted in his team dropping to 19th place in the Championship table. Yes we need that type of figure ok.

Over the past 10 years (excluding the last two) (in fact I'd say 20 years) we have way out performed your heroes in Scotland and Norn Iron (who lost at home to Luxembourg recently I think). Our record against the bigger teams as regards wins is not great ok but it has nothing to do with attitude. What we have done (excluding the past couple of years) consistently is beat our lessers, equal our equals and equal/lose to our betters. If every team can do this we'll qualify for tournaments or be there or there about. I have never seen an Irish team roll over except arguably against Italy/Spain in Poland countries and Germany in Dublin (due mostly to errors for every goal), all nearing the end of Trap's reign.

I am not sure what you mean about our boys in Paris?

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I would say some of the performances and/or against the better teams and equals has been entirely down to attitude, either from the presiding manager, or the players. Bulgaria, Slovakia and Austria are just some of the examples that come to mind.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

It seems they have been seeking out eligible players behind the scenes, but how far should they go? David McGoldrick seems the only one who's responded positively. What else can they do really? You can't tie down a player if he doesn't want to commit and begging the likes of Mark Noble (or Stephen Ireland, for that matter) to come play for us is just demeaning. O'Neill's attitude with, say, Noble and Ireland, is spot on (the ball is in their court) and I get the impression he's in tune with the supporters generally on this matter; he's perceptive to the reality that the fans won't take very well to us chasing desperately after pretenders and mercenaries who couldn't really give a toss about representing Ireland.

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Originally Posted by geysir

O'Neill is by a (country?) mile the most articulate football intelligent manager we have had .... ever. Doesn't mean he is the best ever manager but oft times he is seriously underestimated by self appointed experts, much to his chagrin.
So far, O'Neill's expressed attitude has been spot on as regards the potential 'plastics'. What has muddied the waters were various reports and our own fears/suspicions raring up as they do, it is a sensitive area where there are undefined boundaries to be regarded. His respectful attitude to Grealish and his dad was well appreciated by them both and if it did come down to Grealish being inspired by the sentiments of the manager, we can trust that O'Neill could express exactly what was required at that moment in time.

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Fair points both, but reckon we'll regret this in about 5 years time (if not sooner!), when we're even more mediocre than we are now...

Oh well, luckily wasn't overly interested in qualifying for the next 3 tournaments, unless the next 2 WC venues change.

I never said anything about Roy Keane's managerial prowess. I said we need a Roy Keane figure among the players. And Roy did a fantastic job as manager of Sunderland and his presence has had an invigorating effect on Aston Villa this season.

Scotland and NI are not my heroes. I am just showing some concern about our complete inability to beat teams of a comparable standard to us and this culture of talking up draws against teams like Slovakia and Sweden. It's ingrained in our Intl. footballing mentality now - in no small part due to Trapattoni. Fair enough we can equal our equals but we are going to have to beat one of Poland, Scotland or Germany to get into Euro 2016. It's as simple as that. Can anyone reasonably expect us to do that on the basis of our performance against Georgia and Scotland's performance against Germany?

People on here are saying the October games are formalities. I don't want to hear that. Far worse teams than us have embarrassed teams like Portugal in recent past and inferior teams have given Spain and Germany harder tests. And yes, frankly, I do think a little of it comes down to attitude.

Sorry if I belittled the emotions of our boys in Paris - that wasn't my intention. But the sad fact of the matter is if we didn't show an abject France side so much respect we could have got something from the first leg and if we had the bottle to take our chances in Paris, we would have got more than one goal. They were a daunting task in name only - as was proven by their performances immediately prior and immediately after our two games.

I know you've already clarified your comments but...

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

We badly need a Roy Keane figure in the locker room to force us to believe we can hang with these teams. Enough of this poxy, lily-livered attitude that has seen us go over 10 years without beating a half-decent team in competitive football.

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...ahhh don't we have the Roy Keane figure in the locker room?

Also I fully expect us to lose to Germany, but we're not playing in the match. I'd expect the players to have a different attitude. What the fans think and what the players think should never be mistaken as the same thing.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Can anyone reasonably expect us to do that on the basis of our performance against Georgia and Scotland's performance against Germany?

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Yes. Scotland defended like jokers. I expect our expert finishers to show those profligate Germans where the net is. :)

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Sorry if I belittled the emotions of our boys in Paris - that wasn't my intention. But the sad fact of the matter is if we didn't show an abject France side so much respect we could have got something from the first leg and if we had the bottle to take our chances in Paris, we would have got more than one goal. They were a daunting task in name only - as was proven by their performances immediately prior and immediately after our two games.

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Your point still made no sense because Scotland lost the game where Dailly's rant was caught on air. It proves nothing in terms of how little they respected the Germans on the pitch and it would seem they didn't have the bottle to take their chances either.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Oh well, luckily wasn't overly interested in qualifying for the next 3 tournaments, unless the next 2 WC venues change.

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Thats an odd POV (IMO). Whoever the hosts are wouldnt usually factor so heavily into a persons interest in qualification, apart from your more extreme bandwagoners/fairweather fans who attend just so they can say they attended.

I doubt very much Keane and O'Neill will be taking a defeatist attitude to Germany. We're up against a different class of team but they'll be looking at the likes of Ghana and USA who gave them a tough time. So did Algeria. It's different to expect Germany to win the group and to publicly say so, because that's pretty certain I'd say. It's not certain they won't drop points in doing so. O'Neill may not be famous for his sophisticated brand of football but he is renowned for motivation.

I still don't read too much into Scotland's performance in Germany and ours to Georgia. On another night Scotland might have lost 3-0. We need to improve on our Georgian performance but I don't see why we can't. Scotland are a year further into their project than we are into ours. There's more capacity for us to get better. I think we've got better players except for goalkeeper and left back.

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Originally Posted by WexCar

Thats an odd POV (IMO). Whoever the hosts are wouldnt usually factor so heavily into a persons interest in qualification

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Because we shouldn't live in a bubble...
Russia (not exclusively) have a pretty lamentable record re.their minorities, racism and LBGT issues amongst others and a certain predilection to invade their neighbours. as confirmed by Georgians recently.
As for Qatar, that was a decision primarily based on backhanders and corruption. Plus the weather conditions are entirely unsuitable.

No fan of China (see Russia) but they deserve it a 100 times more than Qatar. Even Saudi Arabia do, though Morocco or Australia would be my preferences.

I agree with all of that AB, but I'll still be elated if we qualify. Always better to qualify than not, even if the host country has lamentable rights standards. One of my favourite ever WCs was Argentina, then under military dictatorship.

Hopefully Qatar will lose theirs and FIFA will be held to account for its cronyism and corruption long beforehand.

2016 is possible despite my rampant pessimism. If those WC venues stay the same, won't be that disappointed if we end up missing out.
Hopefully they will both change if the FIFA clowns ever get their act together?

Unless we get the luckiest draw ever, a jump in our seeding pot (or two) and/or a massive influx of new players, think we can write off the next two WC's anyway, hopefully the U-17's et al can give more optimism for 2024 & beyond.

Much as we can deride McClean for his attitude and one dimensional style of play, the raw pace he displayed against Ipswich last week has me thinking we should play a 433 of sorts in Germany, with McClean and McGeady flanking Long, and a solid midfield 3 led by McCarthy, with two of Hoolahan, Whelan, Meyler and Hendrick. I'm not sure Gibson is ready yet.

This is premised on Germany playing a high line and being vulnerable to pace, like they were against Algeria. Of course Mertesacker is no longer in the team but Scotland's goal was scored from a break from deep and Germany were caught out by pace.



------------------Keeper --------------
Coleman - O'Shea - Delaney - Wilson
----------McCarthy ----- Whelan
McGeady ------ Hoolahan -------- McClean
----------------- Long ---------------

Get rid of Whelan and we have a deal...

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Much as we can deride McClean for his attitude and one dimensional style of play, the raw pace he displayed against Ipswich last week has me thinking we should play a 433 of sorts in Germany, with McClean and McGeady flanking Long, and a solid midfield 3 led by McCarthy, with two of Hoolahan, Whelan, Meyler and Hendrick. I'm not sure Gibson is ready yet.

This is premised on Germany playing a high line and being vulnerable to pace, like they were against Algeria. Of course Mertesacker is no longer in the team but Scotland's goal was scored from a break from deep and Germany were caught out by pace.



------------------Keeper --------------
Coleman - O'Shea - Delaney - Wilson
----------McCarthy ----- Whelan
McGeady ------ Hoolahan -------- McClean
----------------- Long ---------------

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That's not bad, and it's a plan that could definitely bear fruit. Is it likely? Possibly, but really I just don't believe any word from O'Neill about being positive against Germany away. The statement that Wes will feature more at home (can't provide link, but pretty sure it was widely reported) rather than away was telling for me. I think he'll now look to use McGeady in that role behind the lone striker, and utilise Walters as the workhorse out wide.

Just looking at those players you've picked above.

--------------------------------Keeper

-------------OShea-----------Delaney---------Wilson

Coleman---------------------------------------------------McClean
------------------------------- Whelan

=----------------McCarthy-----------------Hoolahan

-------------------------------McGeady

---------------------------------Long

I wouldn't actually mind seeing O'Neill use whatever friendlies he has next year at trying out his 5-3-2 formation that worked initially for him at Celtic.
That's the position I think McClean would be best utilised in. Coleman is a natural wing-back. The midfield three is probably more natural with Gibson, or Quinn/Hendrick at a push.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Get rid of Whelan and we have a deal...

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------------------Keeper --------------
Coleman - O'Shea - Delaney - Wilson
-----------------McCarthy --------------
McGeady ------ Hoolahan -------- McClean
----------------- Long ---------------


Funnily enough... it actually looks a stronger team :)

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Get rid of Whelan and we have a deal...

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We'd hardly beat them with 10 men!

Is there any reason why we shouldn't experiment with the Zeman 2-0-8 against Gibraltar?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BysipuaIQAABbGp.png:large

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Originally Posted by Predator

We'd hardly beat them with 10 men!

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Agreed, but with Ward or Whelan, we might as well have ten...

Something about Coleman/McCarthy being out for these two games, not it matters overly, though couldn't find a working link...

So all those people saying we shouldn't have called up Naughton & Noble could well be wrong...

Are you saying your pessimism about our chances in Germany would be removed if we had Noble and Naughton instead of Coleman and McCarthy, despite the latter being better players?

Those two would probably be better stand-ins...

And I'd be pessimistic if we had our strongest ever Irish team or even a notional Greatest Ever UI team...
Germany are World Champs and, er, 'half-decent'!

Just wondering why not picking two players was wrong if it would have no bearing on the outcome though. It'd be irrelevant rather than wrong!

I think Ardee's point is that if we'd selected two players who didn't want to play for us earlier, then maybe now we'd be able to not call them up as replacements for Coleman and McCarthy.

More to do with the fact, they'd be 'better' than any other replacements.
Do keep up...

I'd take Hendrick and O'Brien over Noble and Naughton even if they did want to play for us (they don't) but each to their own. If we're going to talk about English players who have no intention of declaring for Ireland then we might as well set our sights higher than two average players.

Except they're both (nearly always) injured...

The point is Naughton/Noble are eligible. Lots of other average players aren't!

How would we select eligible players who don't want to play for us though?

Hendrick was out for a few months last season but I don't think his injury record is too bad otherwise, few knocks here and there but nothing significant. Played and scored for Derby's U21's last night btw.

It was Martinez who was casting doubt over the participation of McCarthy and Coleman in the upcoming games: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/socc...rthy-1.1948195

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Originally Posted by Carl O'Malley

Martinez today said McCarthy, along with defender Sylvain Distin, is “not too far away from being fully fit” but warned there is a “question mark” over both for Manchester United at Old Trafford on Sunday (12pm), and then added: “It is not going to be any later than after the international break.

“James has got a tightening of his quad. He has played a lot of football and he is feeling a bit fatigued. It’s not a real injury and I am not concerned by that.”

On Coleman, Martinez took a slightly harder line and suggested a rest during the international break, when Ireland take on Gibraltar on October 11th and Germany away on October 14th, would benefit the Killybegs man.

“Séamus Coleman had concussion against Wolfsburg but then he suffered a little bit of a soft tissue problem. I don’t think it will be too long [before he is fully fit]. I think the international break will clear those injuries.”

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

How would we select eligible players who don't want to play for us though?

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Lots of eligible ones who don't either though.
Threads passim.

German 20-man squad announced: http://www.dfb.de/news/detail/bellar...schaft-107187/

interesting quotes from Loew:

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Löw lobt die Iren: "Sie geben nie auf"
Zum Spiel gegen Irland sagt Löw: "Die Iren haben mit Martin O’Neill einen neuen Trainer. Sie sind - wie wir - mit einem Sieg in die Qualifikation gestartet. Wir wissen, dass es sehr unangenehm sein kann, gegen sie zu spielen. Viele von ihnen spielen in der Premier League. Sie sind kampfstark, geben nie auf. Mich begeistert die Fußballkultur der Iren, ihre Leidenschaft, ihre bedingungslose Hingabe, ihr Fußballherz. Ich erwarte ein sehr intensives Spiel und freue mich auch auf die Stimmung in Gelsenkirchen."

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according to google translate:

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Loew praises the Irish: "never give up"
To match against Ireland says Löw: "The Irish people have with a new coach Martin O'Neill you are - like us - started with a victory in the qualification We know that it can be very unpleasant to play against them, many... of them play in the Premier League. they are strong in the tackle, never give up. excites me about the football culture of the Irish people, their passion, their unconditional devotion, their football heart. I expect a very intense game and am looking forward to the atmosphere in Gelsenkirchen. "

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Wow. Fair play to Mr. Loew, that's a very complimentary analysis. I really hope we fulfill his perception of us.

He called us Die Iren! How dare he!

Er, it's Deutsch?

Maybe he's confusing us with someone else...

Yes AB, it's Deutsch. I can't believe I missed that.

So why quote it? Tets had already done a translation...that just seems a bit pointless.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

So why quote it? Tets had already done a translation...that just seems a bit pointless.

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http://media.giphy.com/media/zSYrX29fmhKBq/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Except they're both (nearly always) injured...

The point is Naughton/Noble are eligible. Lots of other average players aren't!

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Technically they're not eligible until they apply for a passport, which I presume they haven't done yet. The meet the criteria for a passport, correct, but they're not eligible, therefore cannot be called up. Grealish is different I assume as he surely needs a passport to play for the under- 21's already. Therefore he could conceivably be called up.

Oh God, you'll get Danny started again :)

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Something about Coleman/McCarthy being out for these two games, not it matters overly, though couldn't find a working link...

So all those people saying we shouldn't have called up Naughton & Noble could well be wrong...

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Naughton and Noble haven't been selected as they have no interest in playing for us; not because some supporters haven't taken to them, Noble in particular. And they're not unwanted because their ability is in doubt; plenty recognise their talent or potential utility. They're not wanted because they haven't displayed any interest whatsoever in representing us. In fact, Noble has been pretty explicit about his intention not to play for us; he wants to play for England. The only one in Noble's camp playing with the notion of him playing for us is his agent. If he did declare and proved himself worthy, the general tune might change, but it's no surprise very few don't really take to such mercenary gamesmanship. I sense most supporters would rather a team of dedicated players with positive squad morale, even if possibly individually weaker on a broad technical front or with lesser strength in depth, than a team featuring pretenders and chancers such as Noble or Jermaine Pennant.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Lots of eligible ones who don't either though.

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Lots of eligible players don't want to play for us? Is that not the problem I've just identified as being largely outside of our control or am I misreading your point? No matter what Gary McAllister might think, we can't (and don't) coerce players into playing for us.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

He called us Die Iren! How dare he!

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At least he didn't praise our "rugby heart" amongst the fighting-Irish clichés!

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Technically they're not eligible until they apply for a passport, which I presume they haven't done yet. The meet the criteria for a passport, correct, but they're not eligible, therefore cannot be called up. Grealish is different I assume as he surely needs a passport to play for the under- 21's already. Therefore he could conceivably be called up.

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If I may... :)

Eligibility stems from held nationality (and the fulfilling of any other relevant criteria); not necessarily from a held passport. A passport merely offers evidence of a player's nationality and, hence, supports his eligibility. It's simply the most convenient and reliable document to be used for verification purposes, so FIFA generally stipulate the use of passports for such purposes. IFA players don't require British passports to represent NI, for example, but they still must be (verified) British citizens. FIFA allow the IFA to verify their players' eligibility via other forms, I understand. Some of them possess Irish passports only.

You're correct that Naughton and Noble aren't technically eligible for us though. To be eligible to play for us, they would have to put in motion a request to switch via FIFA. Once FIFA approve any request, it can be effected by representing a new association in a competitive fixture (or perhaps a game of lesser status; I don't think we've ever been able to work out exactly what might and mightn't effect a switch).

Sorry, Charlie. I couldn't help it! :p