You are right! McGrath was no good, Robson was no good among others. What planet are you on? Name these great players who moved to Italy in the 80s?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
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You are right! McGrath was no good, Robson was no good among others. What planet are you on? Name these great players who moved to Italy in the 80s?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Liam Brady, Graeme Souness, Ian Rush, Trevor Francis, Joe Jordan, Ray Wilkins? The best players in the world played in Italy in the 1980s and early 1990s, as shown by Italy's relative dominance of the competition during that decade. There weren't that many British and Irish players among that number during that time because there weren't that many great British and Irish players around.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
How are you determining they are among the best players in the world at that time? Rush was a legend for Liverpool, but a disaster in Italy. Among the others mentioned, only Brady was considered a success. For many, it was a retirement scheme as they had achieved all they could in the English game. I agree Italy was dominant in Europe as money speaks, but I can't agree that they were all among the best players in England when they went to Italy.
In the period of time those players played in Italy (1981-87), the England v Italy score was 3-1, 2-0, and 1-1 for victories in the European Cup, Uefa cup, and Cup-winners cup respectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
If your argument is that Italian success in europe in the early 90's demonstrates the superiority of their league at that time, then in the 1980's the English league was demonstrably superior. These players moved away from the English league during its most dominant period in Europe.
I'd say the reason they didn't succeed in Italy was because they played a relatively one-dimensional style of football that didn't lend itself to the more intricate continental game, which to be fair hasn't really changed much. English (and Irish) players generally haven't succeeded abroad regardless of the era. My point remains that Irish players were at the top echelons of the English game because the English game was particularly weak at that point. I'm not saying Glenn Whelan would have prospered at Liverpool in the '80s, just that our standard of player hasn't dramatically decreased since Houghton and Staunton were flitting between Liverpool and Aston Villa.
No, my point is that Irish players came to prominence at the top English teams after those players had left and English teams weren't allowed in European competition and the English national team was at a low ebb.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
I'm disagreeing with your point that the best players in the English league moved to Italy in the 80's because it was a better league. By your own barometer for success, it clearly wasn't.
I disagree with that obviously but I made my point inelegantly. There weren't a whole lot of great British and Irish players around at the time, and I think the more talented ones were courted by superior leagues, particularly when the English clubs were kicked out of Europe. The Irish players in question, with the exception of your Whelans and your Lawrensons, came to prominence when the English clubs were excluded from Europe and thus significantly weaker than they were when English clubs were winning European cups a few years earlier. So I think it's lazy to compare today's Irish players, when the Premier League has the money to attract many of the world's best players, with that era when English football was at a historical weak point.
I'd argue that it's equally lazy to say that because they didn't move to Italy, they musn't have been all that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
That was lazy, to be fair. But I do think the Italian teams courted and got who they wanted.
Many great players didn't move to Italy in the 80's and 90's Charlie. It doesn't make them any less good. And given that the Serie A was the top league in Europe at the time, it is widely accepted that the English league was a very close second, in spite of the ban.
Plus...with regards to not moving abroad.....
John Byrne - Le Havre
Kevin Moran - Sporting Goujons
Tony Cascarino - Marseilles/Nancy/Red Star
John Aldridge - Real Sociedad
Mick McCarthy - facking Lyon!
Stapleton - Ajax/Anderlecht + Le Havre
:p
Football was much more parochial back then. And most of these players wouldn't have suited the Italian 'style'. Which a bit like the EPL now, was vastly over-rated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
don't forget, the player quota was still in force at the time, you had to be an exceptional player, better than what was available from the club's own country, to force your way into a sideQuote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Players like Ronnie Whelan, John Barnes, Bryan Robson and McGrath would not have been out of place in any club side of that era. You could add pretty much any of the Liverpool team from then actually.
I remember reading that AC Milan wanted to buy Mcgrath for a big sum but Ferguson refused to sellQuote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
After Baresi, Mcgrath was the best defender I have ever seen - re one Euro game against Genoa where he was magnificent
I seem to recall Baresi and Baggio including him in their dream world elevens at that time. High praise from arguably the two greatest players of their generation.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
It's been often said around these parts but imagine just how good he could have been if he had knees!
Yeah but I heard he got roasted over there! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
gijons goujons dijon....
Apropos nothing:
Ireland Team 1988
Packie Bonner, Chris Morris, Mick McCarthy, Kevin Moran, Chris Hughton, Ray Houghton, Paul McGrath, Ronnie Whelan, Tony Galvin, Frank Stapleton, John Aldridge. Subs - Niall Quinn for Stapleton (63), Kevin Sheedy for Galvin (76) Subs Not Used: Gerry Peyton; John Byrne; John Anderson Coach: Jack Charlton
England Team
Shilton; Stevens; Sansom; Webb; Wright; Adams; Robson; Waddle; Beardsley; Lineker; Barnes. Subs: Hoddle for Webb (60); Hateley for Beardsley (82)
Joint team:
1 Shilton, 2 Stevens, 3 Sanson, 4 McGrath, 5 Moran, 6 Robson 7 Houghton 8 Whelan 9 Lineker 10 Beardsley, 11 Barnes
4 Irish 7 English with moving McGrath back to centre half. Stapleton was nearing the end of his career, hence I chose Beardsley over him. In his prime I would have chosen Frank.
We did really well to come out with that victory over a very good English side. To keep a forward line of Waddle; Beardsley; Lineker and Barnes scoreless was a great achievement. Thank you Jack. Thank you Ray. Thank you Ireland.
i always found we never saw the best of Sheridan under Charlton - i remember he came against Spain in Dublin in 1993 , when we were 3 goals down , he looked like a lad who could play, i thought he was a great midfielder when he played for Wednesday in the early 90's , and he was instrumental in beating united in the league cup in 92, Wednesday were a decent premiership team in the early 90's , he also gave a mom performance against Bolivia prior to the World cup in 1994
Sheridan was a class footballer! A real playmaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal rover
1991 was the Final where they beat Man U. Class passer of a ball ok but lacked speed and of course his style of play and lack of physicality didn't suit Big J's up and at 'em approach. Not a box to box midfielder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal rover
Happy birthday to Jack. 78 today.
From somewhere out in the world, there comes a reply, "thanks Eagle".
More likely 'shuddup. Yull scare tha bluddy fish!'
In fact he scored a goal that day - and it was the goal that put us through on goal difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal rover
On goals scored!
:) I didn't say "Happy birthday Jack". I said "Happy birthday to Jack".Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I remember a time, not sure if it applied on the international scene, when placings were decided on so-called goal average as opposed to goal difference (i.e. the number of goals scored was divided by the number of goals conceded so 50/25 would have finished ahead of 80/41. The comments on Sheridan's goal against Spain reminded of that.
How's that for a conversation stopper?
Pretty wonderful though I think as soon as Tets and Dodge see it it will pick right up again.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
A little interview with Charlton published a couple of day ago.
I had heard about the Bob Paisley thing at some stage but probably didn't fully appreciate the significance of it. It got me digging a small bit deeper and I came across this interesting piece:
BOB PAISLEY: THE GREATEST MANAGER IRELAND NEVER HAD
We got the greatest instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
No doubt. It must have been tough to take (for everybody?) at the time though surely?
It was one of the biggest brain farts in football history at the time, to choose Charlton over Bob Paisley. I was dumbfounded by the decision. Charlton was a plodder compared to the football genius of Paisley.
But as it turned out, Bob was already showing early sign of a serious chronic nerve disease, his brain function was affected and he degenerated rapidly, within a year or two.
Charlton just deteriorated at a much slower rate.
Not for me. I knew Charlton would be a success (he had been that almost unique thing: a successful Sheffield Wednesday manager). I kept the articles by Con Houlihan castigating the appointment of Charlton and sent it back to him two years later :) All Paisley had known was Liverpool (and action in WW2 incidentally). He had worked under Shankly and then stepped in to his shoes. I am not sure he would have succeeded with us in a totally different environment. A better coach no doubt but the big Geordie was much more suited to the Irish position ---- but we'll never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
http://i.imgur.com/pISpjsb.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
It doesn't demean Charton's subsequent brilliant achievements with Ireland one little bit by stating the bleedin' obvious glaring fact that as decent as Charlton was as a club manager he was not in the same league as Bob Paisley and nowhere near it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Bob succeeded God and did a better job. It is one of the most astonishing aspects of football history that this manager is so underrated when in any discussion of the all time greats, his name should be mentioned seriously.
Paisley certainly was a great Liverpool manager. It was a great honour for Ireland that such a man would put himself up for the Irish job.
He won more alright but I think the scale of their particular jobs were almost incomparable. Liverpool were slumming it out in Division 2 for a few years when Shankly took over. If somebody built my house from the ground up I wouldn't turn around and give more credit to the guy that painted it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I think this might be one of those situations where it's noted so often that somebody is underrated that he's not actually underrated at all, a bit like Denis Irwin (or Donnchadh Walsh for GAA fans). Paisley is mentioned in most conversations I hear to be honest - himself, Clough, Busby, Shankly and Ferguson (in no particular order) are probably the five really outstanding British managers? Is anybody else deserving of a serious mention? Only Ancelotti has won as many European Cups as Paisley so he's always going to be in the conversation I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
He didn't better Shankly of course but Paisley also helped build Liverpool from the ashes and without him much would have been missing from Liverpool's game. At least he improved on the situation he took over after Shankly, where most would struggle, taking over from an icon of the game.
Paisley is not just one of the greatest coaches/ managers in British history, but would fit into many a top 10 of world coaches/managers list. Not just for his record at the helm but also the 20 years before that. I don't know where Jack would be ranked then.
My point relates to the question, that at the particular time in football history when Ireland were looking for a manager, Bob Paisley was God at that time, Jack was decent but not in the same league.