The campaign Kerr presided over was certainly a much tougher one than than Traps last one. France, Switzerland and Israel being the standout teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
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The campaign Kerr presided over was certainly a much tougher one than than Traps last one. France, Switzerland and Israel being the standout teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
That French side was in disarray and only qualified because they called Zidane, Makalele and, I think, Thuram out of retirement. The Swiss were no great shakes and we threw away two wins against Israel. The only thing that stopped us qualifying for that World Cup was the inability to close out a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by bishbash
Yeah but the fact remains that they were there, Thierry Henry's wasn't a bad player at that time if I remember correctly. Switzerland and Israel were much better sides than Estonia, Macedonia, Slovakia or Armenia were. That was my point it was a more difficult qualifying campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
What did Israel do after that campaign? They were no better than Armenia. Switzerland were probably marginally better than Slovakia, or at least more clinical an outfit. The Russia team we played was vastly better than the French team we played in the first leg, and I'd say still superior to the Zidane/Henry-inspired team that beat us.
Superior to the team that lost the following World Cup final on penalties,Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I'd have to strongly disagree. I'm not saying Israel were exceptional I'm just saying they were superior to Armenia, Slovakia and Macedonia which they were. My point is still that Kerr had a more difficult qualifying campaign than traps last one.
In that particular game, yeah. They were a side in disarray that played very little fluid football. Luckily for them, the senior players froze the manager out at the World Cup and used their talent to get to the final in spite of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by bishbash
I really don't know how you could consider that Israel side superior to Armenia. We comfortably outplayed them twice and conceded stupid goals to draw the games. Armenia offered an attacking threat they never did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
The irish side that lost to France in the playoff was lauded for producing a great performance. It could be argued that that French side was completely dysfunctional considering their performances that followed and actions of the players. That Russian side did nothing in the World Cup. However I would have no problems had we lost both games as the Russians were a much better side than Ireland. My point is the inept displays against the other opponents who we are stronger than which were far from convincing and that's followed on. Brian Kerr in my opinion was much more ruthlessly judged in results and performances in a group that I feel was much stronger than what trap faced. Yes I definitely do think that Israeli side was superior but I give credit to that irish side for the way the played against better opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I think you're taking me up wrong. I completely agree the France side we faced in the playoff were dysfunctional and we should have beaten them. I was talking about the groups as the only direct comparison since Kerr didn't reach the playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by bishbash
Well Kerr was more ruthlessly judged because, regardless of whether the opponents were weaker or stronger than what Trap faced, he didn't get results. He didn't get to any playoffs and he didn't qualify for anything.Quote:
That Russian side did nothing in the World Cup. However I would have no problems had we lost both games as the Russians were a much better side than Ireland. My point is the inept displays against the other opponents who we are stronger than which were far from convincing and that's followed on. Brian Kerr in my opinion was much more ruthlessly judged in results and performances in a group that I feel was much stronger than what trap faced.
You think that Israel side was better than Ireland? Even though they finished ahead in the groups... no way.Quote:
Yes I definitely do think that Israeli side was superior but I give credit to that irish side for the way the played against better opposition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
no I don't think that Israeli side were better than Ireland, fully agree that we let those games slip, but I do think that they were superior to most teams we faced in the last campaign.
the problem I have with the way Trapattoni is judged is either you analyse the performance of the Irish team taking into account the quality of the opposition and circumstances or you just say purely and simply on results. In the case of Brian Kerr he got one campaign was pretty unlucky, came down to as you said failure to hold on to leads, didn't qualify and was sacked. I thought he did a reasonable job with the team and could see positives but if its a results business pure and simple then sack him.
Trappattoni failed to get us qualified in his 1st campaign so you could argue that he should have walked. People will say the team was poor etc but if you judge it on just results he should walk.
I believe that the analysis should be based on all the relative particulars of a campaign, quality of team, opposition etc. My problem with Trapattoni is over the last campaign we played very average teams using outdated tactics. I believe we could have qualified playing a better brand of football that would have also set us up to be more equipped to play the likes of Spain, Croatia and Italy. Would we still have lost? Most probably but I believe we would have had a far better chance of getting somethin rather than the embarrassment we suffered.
do we have the players to play like Spain? No. But we also don't have the players to play A 4-4-2 against teams that out number us and who we like to hand possession to. The problem is he hasn't altered his thinking in the slightest when lets be honest some things have to change.
Hes been a great manager but he's enjoyed luck I've never seen before (Russia) (drawing Estonia). The time has come now to apply the criteria for judgement, is it results based that we have decided is the be all and end all? If so he has to go based on the euros and really what's come since.
I think that campaign was Israel's high water mark, they were unbeaten v France and v Switzerland if I remember correctly. Switzerland were very very solid back then and regularly qualified. And France went on to the World up final that campaign.
I think Kerr's WC2006 group was significantly harder than Trap's two full campaigns. I don't see how anyone could doubt that, particularly the Euro2012 group. Comparing the teams' FIFA rankings at the times would give an objective measure,if someone looked it up.
IMO we are at a Stan-like level of disarray and incompetence and GUBU at the moment under Trap. I think it really is that bad.
This is my point, under Kerr it was considered not good enough even though we played strong sides. Under Trap the attitude seems to be we're Ireland we're crap thanks very much for working miracles Giovanni. I disagree completely. Kerr had a stronger squad I accept that but I don't believe that Trap has made nearly enough of the group he has available to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
Another point I've heard made against Kerr was he lost the dressing room. When players speak about Trap all you hear is players should just get on with it.
This is miserable nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
Brought upon I believe, by a young person wanting instant gradification via a myth.
Stan vs Wales......
Genuinely no idea what you're trying to say here (young? myth? what?), but it doesn't sound constructive. Debate the issues, don't attack the poster please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Kazakhstan could easily have been Trap's equivalent of the 2-5 in Cyprus but for Kevin Doyle* creating one and scoring another. And we're getting players played out of position and mad "rabbit out of hat" promotions to the team. And a general feeling of a manager under siege doing and saying anything to survive... All Stan-like to me.
*But now Sammon is ahead of Doyle & others? It's farcical.
Indo's campaign against Trap continues...
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-29057912.html
The big issue here is communication. Clearly Trap is not good at it. This is just another case in a long run of needless fall outs with players. There is one common denominator.
I agree with others that no player is entitled to throw a tantrum over not getting in the team, no player is entitled to expect a starting place. However, I do think the likes of Kelly, the likes of Gibson who turned up for many a squad, deserve some sort of communication every now and then as to what they need to do to get in the team, why they arent etc. I particularly think Gibson deserved to be taken aside and explained why he got no game time at the Euros even though Trap specifically asked him to join the training squad early and then gave game time to players like Green who were touch and go to make the squad.
Finally, a manager who communicates well would deal with any issues in house, even if they are reported in the media. Replying as he does in this manner only fuels the flames.
It's not Delaney being lined up for the job, it's Lord Reilly of INM towers, or formerly of INM towers. Directions were given to INM journos to go after the FAI and Trap when the battle began for control of INM, it's continuing to play out now. And we all just play along. Of course the FM2011 heroes will reckon they know more than everyone, along with the meeja and talking heads. It's like a long drawn out Joe Duffy, only less funny and more embarrassing.
The same paper that "learned" about the managers imminent sacking from a senior FAI source. They're worse than Cosmo with their surveys.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
The Indo and others do have an agenda and Duffy is a cringeworthy rabble-rouser, but that doesn't stop us judging the evidence of our own eyes and ears making up our own mind ... and possibly deciding Trap is a liability.
Piece in Irish Examiner by Miguel Delaney about all the players Trapattoni fell out with over his tenure: Stephen Ireland, Andy Reid, Steven Reid, James McCarthy, Marc Wilson, Kevin Foley, Darron Gibson, James McClean, Shane Long, Stephen Kelly. Now we just need Trap to fall out with one more player (preferably a goalkeeper) and we could have a serious team on our hands. This is how I would line them up:
.......ANother(inevitable)
S Reid....Kelly....Wilson....Foley
Ireland..McCarthy..Gibson..McClean
...................A Reid
...................Long
Strong team on paper. Not ideal having Foley on the left but think Wilson is required in the centre given our paucity for options here. The 3-man midfield with Reid playing in an advanced role supporting Long certainly looks solid. Ireland has a tendency to get lost out on the wing but he can have a licence to tuck inside whenever he pleases. McClean will certainly give us the width on the other flank. Only problem is our goalkeeper . . . . this position continues to be worrisome . . . .
Dean Kiely could of done a job a few years ago...Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_c12000
You don't need a newspaper to understand that Trap's has a truly awful record when it comes to this kind of stuff. People like Gibson pretty much brought it on themselves, but Kelly, Foley?
In, erm, Trap's 'defence' didn't Steven Reid retire from international football, due to injury issues?
That's his stock answer, every time the subject comes up when he features as a radio pundit...
Plus Long and McClean are in the current squad, so how do they 'count' in this respect?
It doesn't count AB, it is all about selling papers and feeding the beast. It will be extremely hard to get a manager of any decent worth when the current one goes as they'd need to have some screws loose to take on the Irish job, even at the salary.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
The meejahideen.
Again, let's leave the media out of it. A media campaign is no reason to dismiss criticism of Trap, that's lazy thinking.
And anyway, acompetent manager should be able to handle/ignore the media and not feed it/react to it like Trap has been doing for years.
People on here always refer to his pedigree /results but forget his last jobs in Stuttgart and Salzburg weren't exactly successful.
Did he not win the league with Salzburg?Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
And Benfica 2 years before that.
It seems to be a regular occurence here that if you post and make two or three points, somebody will hop on half of the most minor of those points and try to pick it apart, ignoring what the main gist of the discussion is. I was making the point that "it's all a media campaign" might be true, but it is still no excuse for not critically examining what effect Trap is having at the moment.
Yes, of course he one a league at Salzburg. Anyone can google that. He was brought to an artificial moneybags club to get them far in Europe and didn't do that. He also won one league in two years, which wasn't good enough with the $$$ on offer, and the Austrian league is hardly strong. His time at Salzburg was thus not a great success, and his job before that in Stuttgart was a disaster.
At the same time his successors haven't been up to much with Salzburg either. Dudelange anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
I think you can only judge a league's difficulty in the context of that league.
Fwiw I'm with you re Trap. I think he should go now. The last few months with the fallings out and the bizarre selections (Conor Sammon)
He steadied the ship after Staunton and got us to the Euros, and while that wasn't a complete success at least he got us to a tournament for the first time in a decade.
We have some good players capable of playing some good football. We need to use them properly or we will languish where we are for the forseeable.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but you can't call Trap's reign at Salzburg 'unsuccessful' when he won a league title.Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
I think Trap is having a negative affect on the team and constant falling out with players isn't ideal but I'm prepared to back him until I see what happens next month.
It's a discussion board. Points - be they minor or fundamental to the general gist - are evaluated and re-evaluated, which is all part of any thorough critical examination in an effort to get a bit closer to the truth of the matter. Strong arguments will be able to withstand "petty" criticisms and shouldn't have to rely on exaggerations and inaccuracies.Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
Kerr's group (draw seedings in brackets):Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
1st France (Pot 1)
2nd Swiss (Pot 3)
3rd Israel (Pot 4)
4th Ireland (Pot 2)
5th Cyprus (Pot 5)
6th Faeroes (Pot 6)
Out of all the teams in seeding pots 1 & 2 only Belgium did as badly as us (they were also a second seed finishing 4th, behind Serbia, Spain and Bosnia). Again both ourselves and Belgium ended up as 4th seeds in the subsequent draw for Euro 2008.
Traps group (seeding pot at draw in brackets):
1st Russia (1st)
2nd Ireland (3rd)
3rd Armenia (5th)
4th Slovakia (2nd)
5th Macedonia (4th)
6th Andorra (6th)
We were the lowest seeded team to qualifiy for the tournament (Poland and Ukraine excluded since their seedings were skewed through lack of matches and also they didnt technicially qualify either). All 1st seeds qualified, but some 2nd seeds didnt (Swiss, Serbia, Slovakia - all of whom were at the previous WC, Turkey and Romania) and additionally all third seeds who were ranked above us didnt make it (Israel, Finland, Bulgaria, Norway).
It's one thing to slate Trap for bad tactis, negative football and falling out with players, but I don't think you can really fault him in terms of qualification record for 2010 and 2012. In each case he took a 3rd pot team into finishing second which is progess unlike Kerr. Dont forget when the draw was made for the WC 2010 qualifiers we had even slipped below the north in terms of seeding rank. In his two qualification campaigns we only lost twice (home France, home Russia) in 24 games (WC 10+2, Euro 10+2). Contrast that to the previous two campaigns we'd lost 4 times (Kerr: home France, Stan: away Germany, Czechs, Cyprus) in 22 (Kerr 10 Stan 12) against teams that were generally lower seeds than us.
It's a discussion board, not a peer-reviewed journal.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Plenty of posters have no interest in getting to the truth on some issues. The notion that anything negative about Trap is part of a media 'agenda' is just one example.
I think it is easy to look back at Brian Kerr's reign with rose tinted glasses, especially since the Euros. On paper, I would agree that Trap has done a far superior job and one qualification and one very cruel miss (WC 2010) point to that. Trap from 2008-2011 definitely did a better job on the whole results wise imo, which is what counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
However, I don't agree that you could compare the groups that Kerr had for 2006 with what Trap had for Euro 2012. France with Henry and Zidane coming out of retirement were a better side than Russia. Switzerland 2006 were stronger than Slovakia. Israel had a very decent team at the time and were better than Armenia. I reckon Kerr would get us out of the Euro 2012 group. In fairness to Brian, he was unlucky in that it was such a tight group. We should've beaten the Israelis twice and outplayed the French away. He was very unlucky to lose his job after this campaign.
Kerr had a far better selection of players, in my opinion. Duff and Robbie Keane in their prime, Roy Keane back in the side. Choice of Finnan or Carr for right full. Given at full fitness for the entire qualifiers. We should have beaten Israel twice after going ahead twice, but we didn't. Trapattoni won every game against lower ranked opposition in the European Championship qualifiers. Whatever else you can say about him (and I know plenty will) I think we're better set up under him to win banana-skin games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
As for being unlucky to lose his job, go back and watch the last two games against Cyprus, where we were a penalty save away from drawing, and the final 0-0 against the Swiss. Needing a win, against a team happy to play for a draw, he took off Keane and Morrison and brought on Doherty and Connolly. I'll never understand that. Why persist with 4-4-2, which clearly wasn't working, when a draw was as good as a loss?
There was more to the results in that group that saw Brian losing his job. I think he shoudl have gotten one more campaign. Though 8 years out I think thinking of that Swiss game, still hurts.
i think the question to ask is this:would trap have done better than kerr in thay group?
would kerr have qualified for euro 2012?