Should Trapattoni manage Ireland for the 2014 World Cup Campaign?

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

If there's any truth in the Sunday Mirror and Paul Rowan accusations (which should be linked here, and not in some random Damien Duff tributary thread) then I think Trap's position will become untenable. The reported incidents hardly sound impluasible.

On one hand there are clear mitigants, mainly the quality of the opposition, but on the other we have:

Awful man management, I mean truly awful
Overtraining (which England's Italian fitness coach was guilty of in 2006 I think)
Outdated tactics
Lack of flexibility
Dumb substitutions

Look, I know he got us there which only Jack had ever done before but the stuff Rowan is writing makes me feel very uneasy.

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There is a poster that used to be on here, soccerc, he is over on ybig every so often, and he mentioned that the stories are going to be coming out in the next few weeks. I've found him to be very informed in the past.

http://www.ybig.ie/forum/forum_posts...hem-out#953750

Paul Rowan had some really icy articles in the Sunday Times this weekend, but crucially there were no direct quotes from players, or any on the record stuff from FAI board members. Some of it actually was very close to what posters here have said over the past few weeks.

Good, interesting debate, but ultimately pointless. Trap is going nowhere and as warm and fuzzy as a Mick mcCarthy return might make us feel, it is not going to happen in the medium term. Trap aint going so lets just hope he sees sense and makes some serious changes in certain areas - and soon!!

Delaney is the one in a precarious position. He is smart enough to know that he can't allow another Swiss home game scenario under MicMac to happen. But he also extended Traps contract. Paul Rowan (and others) are alleging that Richard Dunne confronted Trapatonni after the Italy game. Thats more serious than anything McClean, Gibson or Hunt allege. Dunne is the real captain of the team.

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

Its all shades of Berti Vogts with Scotland. And Delaney said in yesterdays inteview with the Indo that he would be sitting down with Trap to go over things. What exactly is Delaney going to tell Trap? You must pick such and such a player. This is all going to end in tears and sooner than I thought.

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That's a good point Noely.
Possibly the triumvirate who interviewed Trap to begin with (or another bunch), should sit down with Trap, review and find out what his definite plans are for the next campaign. He likes to talk football, doesn't he?

Team morale was fine on the eve of the first game. 3 one sided beatings and there is disgruntlement. No surprise there really. A losing dressing room is an unhappy one. Particularly for those players who feel they didn't get a fair crack of the whip during the tournament itself. Gibson has a legitimate grievance and playing Cox on the wing would upset the wide players but I'd be very surprised if there is outright mutiny amongst the squad just yet.

If training was too extreme then I'd expect the captain/senior players to have a word with the coaches. They did get one rest day after McGeady came out with his comments about the camp.

I've not read the Rowan article yet so will have a hunt for it now.

It is true that Rowan has only have had one point of view in this regard and that's got to be taken into account.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Who could we get in to replace him? Mick McCarthy ? I really don't see that going well. In the cold light of day he didn't get us to France 98, didn't get us to Holland/Belgium 2000 and played a big part in us not getting to Euro 2004. He probably had a better team than the current one with both Keanes, Duff and Given being at their best and being World Class players.

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Did Trapp actually get us to the Euro finals? He got us to the play-offs by virtue of coming second in a very soft group. The luck of the draw got us to the finals. Any of the other sides in the play-offs would probably have beaten us. On that score his record is no better than Mick's. We now know what a Trapp future would look like and it's a hideous spectacle of wasted talent, alienated players and dreadful football. Mick is no world-beater abd there are other options out there, but he would be greeted as a footballing saviour by most of our players and I suspect a growing number of supporters if he came back now.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Did Trapp actually get us to the Euro finals? He got us to the play-offs by virtue of coming second in a very soft group. The luck of the draw got us to the finals. Any of the other sides in the play-offs would probably have beaten us. On that score his record is no better than Mick's. We now know what a Trapp future would look like and it's a hideous spectacle of wasted talent, alienated players and dreadful football. Mick is no world-beater abd there are other options out there, but he would be greeted as a footballing saviour by most of our players and I suspect a growing number of supporters if he came back now.

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our group wasnt that easy. we did after all qualify as 3rd seeds. the only team to do so. we earned the right to get a weaker nation like estonia given we earned the right to be seeded in the play-off draw.

i made the point before that its basically the same 12 or 13 that qualify for the euros each time so we got 1 of the few places that the likes of us achieves from time to time. to qualify this time with the players we have was a very good achievement. we were in the hardest group by far and this difficult task was made worse by our dreadful first 10 mins against croatia. trap has done a great job with us.

IF trap was to go we wouldnt deserve Mick back. He was treated apallingly by the media 90% of his time in charge and the way the "fans" turned on him at the end was a disgrace. now he we are claiming he would be greated at a "footballing saviour"??

A narrow yes for me.

He deserves another campaign in charge, this team was the worst squad of Irish players to make a finals tournament, but in that there is a positive, he got a poor team to qualify. (still think 02 qualification was greatest achievement).

I was a big fan of Trap upto the Euros. Dont like how we play but its a results business and by and large he got them and brought structure to our team. My big concern was how Russia murdered us in both games - i.e. no lessons were learned by Trap from the home game. And alas those lessons were still not learned this summer.

Change is needed. Formation or personell, certainly the latter and probably both. Problem areas are centre midfield, centre half, full back. I would like to see more younger players drafted in and given a chance - Gibson, Westwood, McClean, McCarthy, Long all merit more inclusion, others certainly are worth a closer look Clark, Coleman, Duffy. Hoolhan is unfortunately not likely to get a look given his style and age.

I would like to see Ireland go back to the way we played in the WC qualifiers. The friendly at the start of that campaign in Norway, the Mainz and Montenegro performances along with the Italy performances (and of course Paris) were games where we held our own in midfield. We certainly have missed a Steven Reid type player from those early days.

Finally I was worried to read the stories of discontent from certain players i.e. Gibson and more so Dunne. Not good if true but in Dunnes case, alot will be told from his decision to stay or not. Most journos have been predicting that he will stay. Another point to note is most inches devoted to the discontent were written by a certain Paul Rowan.

Without getting crazily ahead of ourselves - just should the situation take a decidedly bad turn for the worse.

I hope the FAI have the wit to discreetly suss out not only a suitable replacements availability, but also whether any potential candidates would have a committed and motivated interest in taking the job. A tall order given our current state of affairs.

I'm only being semi-serious but I'm sure many remember our last New Manager Odyssey??? Did we reach 50 names and 130 thread pages???

Anyway, what's Steve Coppell's speed dial?????

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I hope the FAI have the wit to discreetly suss out not only a suitable replacements availability, but also whether any potential candidates would have a committed and motivated interest in taking the job. A tall order given our current state of affairs.

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really? are things that bad?? i dont think so at all. apart from the 12 or 13 big european teams id say our job would be quite interesting

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

really? are things that bad?? i dont think so at all. apart from the 12 or 13 big european teams id say our job would be quite interesting

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I think that could depend on the type of replacement we want and who wants us.

If we wanted a manager to effectively pick up tactically where Trapp left off, we'd be in good shape.

What we actually need is a complete overhaul tactically and a proper blooding of players not seen since the earliest days of Mick McCarthy's tenure.

That's a big task with a lot of potential strife in the short term. I still think this approach will benefit us in the long run.

It could be argued a new manager would revel in this clean slate but it will involve potentially writing off a World Cup campaign, unless the experimentation lead to immediate results.

I was delighted to see Trap getting being appointed the Irish manager when I saw his CV.

But his performance in Euro 2012, and in many of the qualifiers, beggared belief. I knew he was conservative but to be so conservative as to not throw anything out of a sinking ship and see if it might stay afloat is crazy.

I think he tries to rule with an iron fist and it hasn't served Ireland well - Andy Reid, Steven Reid, Darron Gibson etc etc.

Yet he is contradictory too...he was practically begging Stephen Ireland to play at one stage when he did not want to play for his country and others who were desperate to play were shunned for minor steps outside the line.

He had no plan B in the Euros and stuck way too rigidly to 4-4-2 when it clearly was not working.

We were awful in many of the qualifiers and were very lucky at times too.

I think his luck has run out and the team's deficiencies were found out.
I'm not so much annoyed that we lost all three games but it was the manner in which we lost and the lack of direction and focus that was really frustrating. I imagine many of the players feel the same too.

Fixer82 I'd agree with most of that to be honest, most of it said already, but constructed well in one post.

I think the contradictory point, was just Trap playing to the media. He is very astute, and its easy to flirt with someone when you know deep down that there is no chance of you getting anywhere. By entertaining the media for a few moments, he was keeping them on side. Thats all he was doing.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

trap has done a great job with us

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What would it take for you to question this judgement. We have just turned in the worst ever performance by a Euro finals qualifier. We disgraced ourselves and would appear to have alienated and demoralised a significant number of our most important players.

Some people just can't see certain things, and others just don't like to be wrong, and nearly all just cant admit to being wrong.

When it comes to Irish football personally, I love being wrong, because it generally means its for the benefit of the team :)

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

When it comes to Irish football personally, I love being wrong, because it generally means its for the benefit of the team :)

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So, even when you're wrong, you're right!!!

That's quite an elaborate web of bullsh*t you woven there, Paul.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

What would it take for you to question this judgement. We have just turned in the worst ever performance by a Euro finals qualifier. We disgraced ourselves and would appear to have alienated and demoralised a significant number of our most important players.

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i supported through the days of stan and the darker days of micks reign. ive seen us far far lower than trap has us.

i am also a realist and realise that we were in the toughest finals group, we were the only finals country without players in the champions league and i know that players with LA Galaxy, wolves, fulham, leicester city, stoke, wba etc cant be expected to compete with the players spain and italy have. i also dont think that 2 or 3 of our senior players were fit.

i have problems with trap also but stans tenure put us back years but since then we were only cheated out of a wc finals and we qualified for the euros. not bad really

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Originally Posted by punkrocket

I'm fed up of travelling long distances to watch a mediocre team. .

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:O Many of us here remember travelling long distances seeing good Irish teams losing. Give me Trap's unbeaten run away from home (the tournament aside) with a mediocre team any day of the year. Do you want not only not to be beaten away from home but also watch good football?

Trouble in the camp? Of course people will be unhappy if they don't get games. In club sides they ask for transfers. In international teams all they can do is pout or not play again. It's the nature of the beast. Wouldn't worry me too much.

Who would the people who want a new manager like to replace Trap. By and large every third manager improves things while the other two don't. In my years of following Sheff Wed, I have seen 26 new managers. 6 improved things. 20 didn't !! Since Mick, we had 2 who didn't and one who did although some would argue whether Trap has or hasn't improved things. Change does not necessarily mean improvement. It is a risk and I know nothing ventured, nothing gained but the gaps between championships are 4 years so we have to be sure the change is the correct one. I would prefer to stick with Trap because better the reasonably successful devil you know than the devil you don't :)

The problem I have with Trap going is the likely replacement.
Chris Hughton would be my realistic first choice but that's not going to happen now. So who else is out there?
I don't think Mick would come back and if he were to, would he be given a fair go by certain media & fans...
I really fear seeing the Staunton days return with a cheap crap replacement

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Did Trapp actually get us to the Euro finals? He got us to the play-offs by virtue of coming second in a very soft group. The luck of the draw got us to the finals. Any of the other sides in the play-offs would probably have beaten us. On that score his record is no better than Mick's. We now know what a Trapp future would look like and it's a hideous spectacle of wasted talent, alienated players and dreadful football. Mick is no world-beater abd there are other options out there, but he would be greeted as a footballing saviour by most of our players and I suspect a growing number of supporters if he came back now.

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I dont think the group was that soft. Russia have an impressive home record, and were semi finalists in Euro 2008. They fluffed their lines in the WC10 play offs, conceeding an injury time away goal to the Slovenes and then getting 2 men sent off in Slovenia.

Slovakia eliminated Italy at the last world cup and were only edged out 2-1 by Holland in the second round in Durban. We've seen Armenia were an improving side, playing decent football and not the easy touch they might have appeared to be on paper.

You say we were lucky to get Estonia in the play-offs and it's hard to argue with that - but equally well Mick's team was lucky to get Iran in the playoffs. Some of the other teams (Germany, Turkey, Czechs, Romania) could have given us a hard game then.

If we look at qualification we had some very poor results in key games under McCarthy. In the 1998 campaign the defeat in Bucharest was acceptable although coupled with a 1-1 at home it was dissapointing not to get more points off them. However, drawing 0-0 at home to Iceland and Lithuania, losing 3-2 in Skopje, we ended up 10 points behind Romania, and more crucially ended up 5 points behind the Scots in the "best second place" table (results against 1st, 3rd and 4th were counted). The Scots were the best second place team and so got to the WC directly. In the playoffs we were poor against Belgium in both legs and the Belgians themselves were not the hardest team we could have faced (we could have got the likes of Italy, Russia, Croatia or Yugoslavia).

The Euro 2000 and WC 2002 qualifications were better with less sloppy results and arguably in harder groups. We got good home results especially 1-0 vs Croatia and 2-1 vs Yugoslavia, but the only away victory was limping past Malta 3-2 in Valetta. Dropped points again in Skopje were our undo-ing.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

:O Many of us here remember travelling long distances seeing good Irish teams losing. Give me Trap's unbeaten run away from home (the tournament aside) with a mediocre team any day of the year. Do you want not only not to be beaten away from home but also watch good football?

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I've a minimum 8 hour journey for all our home games.
I'd miss Manuela though.

Yep, Manuela has to stay.

So, is the consensus keep Trap but hope he proves more adaptable and gets his act together on man management?

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Originally Posted by the bear

I don't agree with all his decisions but if we fire the manager that brought us to our first major tourno in years theres something wrong.

Hopefully he can adapt to new a rejuvanated squad with a better philosophy. I won't be holding my breath though.

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We got rid of Mick McCarthy soon enough

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Originally Posted by punkrocket

I've a minimum 8 hour journey for all our home games.
I'd miss Manuela though.

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Ahhh, home games. Pretty dire stuff there ok.

Manuela. I took a picture of my friend with Manuela as she strolled through Poznan prior to the Croatia game. Anyone interested?

Any good vibes towards Tardelli taking over?
That would allow Trap to save face, giving way to his protégé. Trap can maintain a respectful distance. He needs to be closer to home, less travelling. That excuse worked when he wanted to leave Benfica, there could be still some milage left on it

I'd be positive on Tardelli. Danger of same old, same old approach, but Tardelli is a better communicator and knows the players better since he's essentially Trap's eyes and ears. Plus did I read on here (or on one of the papers) that he was remonstrating with Trap during the Croatia match? Like he was describing a problem and was being ignored.

Marco might retain the positives under Trap (discipline, good defence) and marry it with some freedom on the ball.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Manuela. I took a picture of my friend with Manuela as she strolled through Poznan prior to the Croatia game. Anyone interested?

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Was it Eamon Keegan?

I'd be more concerned with who will take over from Koevermans that who would take over from Trap if he left.

Our problems run deeper than an inflexible manager at senior level.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Did Trapp actually get us to the Euro finals? He got us to the play-offs by virtue of coming second in a very soft group. The luck of the draw got us to the finals. Any of the other sides in the play-offs would probably have beaten us. On that score his record is no better than Mick's. We now know what a Trapp future would look like and it's a hideous spectacle of wasted talent, alienated players and dreadful football.

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Don't forget the previous play-off draw was more blatantly fixed in terms of opponents and probably outcome, latterly, once that was in question...

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Originally Posted by third policeman

What would it take for you to question this judgement. We have just turned in the worst ever performance by a Euro finals qualifier. We disgraced ourselves and would appear to have alienated and demoralised a significant number of our most important players.

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Most neutral observers recognise the gulf in our resources and record compared to Italy and Spain. Yet we "disgraced ourselves" by not beating two world champion sides with world-class players that nobody else with far greater resources, has managed to beat either.

As for the "lucky" play-off we got, we earned that luck over the past 4 years, by getting enough results to be top seeds. Otherwise we would be in the same pot as Estonia.

Despite our problems, we don't lose heavily now very often. 0-4 results are an aberration now rather than the norm. The last coach had us losing 5 in Cyprus of all places. He had already lost by 4 by that point. That's the sort of days some people want us to go back to. The moral victory rather than the major championship.

There is no shame in getting beaten by Spain. Its the manner of the performances that were unacceptable.

Man management issues, overtraining and inlexibility require scrutiny too. Everyone accepts (to varying degrees) how getting there was an achievement and that there's a gulf in class between the top nations and our level. Nobody wants to go back to the days of chaos or moral victories.

My view is that IF man management issues continue to alienate good players (if indeed we're sure they do) then that in itself minimises chances of success, and that requires change. What this change is I don't know. I'm only a punter.

Here's a seemingly trivial but actually important question: Did Marc Wilson ever return that text? The question relates more to Wilson's attitude than Trap's btw.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Man management issues, overtraining and inlexibility require scrutiny too. Everyone accepts (to varying degrees) how getting there was an achievement and that there's a gulf in class between the top nations and our level. Nobody wants to go back to the days of chaos or moral victories.

My view is that IF man management issues continue to alienate good players (if indeed we're sure they do) then that in itself minimises chances of success, and that requires change. What this change is I don't know. I'm only a punter.

Here's a seemingly trivial but actually important question: Did Marc Wilson ever return that text? The question relates more to Wilson's attitude than Trap's btw.

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What's a little worrying to me at the moment, is that a one line yet-to-be-confirmed quote from one player has been spun out into near squad revolution in a matter of days

No smoke without fire Tets, and its been an ingredient of the Traps recipe since he took over.

MyPost that point losing 5 and losing 4, do you mean conceding, what are you on about? we conceded 3 and 4 in 2 euro matches, so what? Your point as usual is ridiculous. We also scored 2 in that game, so what? So if you take 2 from 5 you get 3, and then its not as bad?!?! :confused: Obviously conceding 5 is not good, but not scoring and losing 4-0(and it could have been 6 or 7), is worse to imo.

New Zealand drew with Italy at the last world cup - granted a poor Italy, which we drew with, but a poor italy - they are way below Italy in the rankings. Upsets are always possible, no matter who we play, yet the manner in which we were destroyed over there, is the big problem here, and we never came close to causing any sort of an upset. It has nothing to do with beating a top tier nation, but at least perform against them is what we ask for. Stutts also points out many of the other failings too, there is a culmination of things, and everyone should be able see these.

The thing is, if trap had gone with 4-5-1 or 4-3-3, or played with gibson and andrews, and advised us to be more attacking, we might still have lost 4-0 against spain and 3-1 against Croatia, but id be pretty sure we would have had a lot more chances and more than likely scored more than one solitary goal. The system/tactics didn't work, and it could not have been any worse trying a different formation at that point.

Robbie Butler examines the stats from the group games for the Independent: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...f-3151178.html

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

MyPost that point losing 5 and losing 4, do you mean conceding, what are you on about? we conceded 3 and 4 in 2 euro matches, so what? Your point as usual is ridiculous. We also scored 2 in that game, so what? So if you take 2 from 5 you get 3, and then its not as bad?!?! :confused: Obviously conceding 5 is not good, but not scoring and losing 4-0(and it could have been 6 or 7), is worse to imo.

The thing is, if trap had gone with 4-5-1 or 4-3-3, or played with gibson and andrews, and advised us to be more attacking, we might still have lost 4-0 against spain and 3-1 against Croatia, but id be pretty sure we would have had a lot more chances and more than likely scored more than one solitary goal. The system/tactics didn't work, and it could not have been any worse trying a different formation at that point.

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So we measure success now by how many chances we create, do we? As Russia showed everyone last year, you can 1 chance or 31 chances, but if the ball doesn't go in, it means nothing.

We got destroyed by better countries with better players who play for better clubs than ours, who were superior in every area of the pitch. Our system has got us where we are over the past 4 years. It's very doubtful whether changing tactics or personnel would have made any difference against that level of opposition. That's what Trap has to work with.

There will always be questions after we look at the performances and results at the Finals.
Rumours are being accepted as fact. Even the rumours of being overtrained are being put out as a definite contributing factor to our demise at the Euros.
Remember those rumours from another era about how our lack of training was a contributing factor?
People will believe things must be true based on something is wrong somewhere, therefore such and such a thing must be valid.
Painting Trap as some ogre might be a comfortable thought for some, but it doesn't hold water.

Trap refused to see the limitations of our game before the Finals, when by then the evidence was clear that his chosen players were not responding or able to respond to an outmanoeuvred and outnumbered midfield. He constantly stated that the players had the belief and the ability to work his system despite clear evidence to the contrary.
There is not that much to change with a squad who were capable to get to the Finals, as long as the management are prepared to recognise the failings and are prepared to change things. If Trap isn't prepared to do that, then even the Faroes will pass us off the park.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Robbie Butler examines the stats from the group games for the Independent: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...f-3151178.html

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And I think everyone's sympathetic to that angle Tets, but it's not the only angle. 2 mid-table (at best) midfielders against a 5 man Spanish midfield with maurauding full backs makes no sense, especially when the man tasked with mucking in to help was Simon Cox. We had no plan to deal with Modric just as Hodgson had no plan to deal with Pirlo. Martin Samuel in the Mail today writes that Phil Jones should have been tasked with tracking Pirlo. Along similar thinking, John O'Shea might have been tasked with doing the same for us. "Might", I know. Whelan may or may not be good enough at this kind of level but when he personally appeals for a 3 man midfield I'd listen to him over and above a UCC economist.

We went out early in the 2007 RWC to two teams quite a bit better than us at the time, FRA and ARG. Did we just rest on our laurels and say we lost to two better teams, or did we ask questions about man management, cliques and preparation? Even my rudimentary knowledge of rugby showed me that ARG adapted to the rules in place at the time by kicking long and chasing the guy fielding the ball. A better team also outdid us tactically.