Fields of Athenry - Ireland v Spain, Gdansk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Mongahan's demise probably has more to do with the people of Mongahan than anyone in Poznan tonight. Start pointing the finger there.

---

But the whole point is that they're the same people. I'll guess there were a couple of hundred Monaghan people in Poland, virtually none of whom have ever been to a Monaghan game.

Can you see that from the perspective of an LOI fan, it rankles somewhat to see terms like 'best fans in the world' being thrown about (and Delaney actually looking for some kind of recognition from UEFA) when this is the case, not just for Monaghan but for every LOI club?

On a similar thread on Boards.ie, a poster commented that the description 'best fans at the finals stage of a major tournament' might be more more accurate, and I'd agree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Murfinator

Misleading stat considering the amount of mild social drinking and drinking with meals that goes on in other countries. The Irish don't consume alcohol the most but the Irish most certainly abuse alcohol the most.

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=9624 - Irish spend most on alcohol in the EU
http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=5276 - Irish spend most on alcohol in the world
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...268876786.html - Irish highest rate of binge drinking in the EU
http://www.irishcentral.com/story/ro...111103999.html - Irish highest rate of pregnant women who drink.

I remember reading an article in the Indo prior to the tournament about this being the perfect time to show the world we've advanced beyond the drunken paddy caricature. Suffice to say we haven't, sadly.

---

It does not matter what type of drinking you do really it is more the total amount.

Let's try dealing with some fact that really matter, binge drinking is not a problem, it's good for you.

Further more

Here are some stats you might not like at all.

1. Ireland has the second lowest death rate from liver cirrhosis in Europe!! 1/3 that of Austria, 1/2 that of France Denmark Germany Portugal
and lower than that of the UK, indeed everyone apart from the Dutch.

So if you want the Irish to drink more socially with meals and die of liver cirrhosis fair enough, personally I do not
think it is a price worth paying unless you are very image conscious and see having a good time as a 'bad thing'.

Here are the stats for you, careful you don't spill your glass of wine on the table cloth!!!
http://ec.europa.eu/health/archive/p...ctsheet_en.pdf

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bennocelt

Didnt think that silly alochol stat needed a reply. Doh - Ireland and drink, really!!! Never

---

They are meaning less stats to justify high rates of alcohol tax in Ireland,
and then they hav audacity to come out with "Irish spend most on booze" when the reality is "Irish have the highest regressive alcohol taxes in the world", mind you a right wing paper will want to keep quiet about high regressive tares so the millionaire can continue to avoid
paying any taxes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Here are the stats for you, careful you don't spill your glass of wine on the table cloth!!!

---

That's A-grade bitch slappin' right there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by osarusan

But the whole point is that they're the same people. I'll guess there were a couple of hundred Monaghan people in Poland, virtually none of whom have ever been to a Monaghan game.

Can you see that from the perspective of an LOI fan, it rankles somewhat to see terms like 'best fans in the world' being thrown about (and Delaney actually looking for some kind of recognition from UEFA) when this is the case, not just for Monaghan but for every LOI club?

On a similar thread on Boards.ie, a poster commented that the description 'best fans at the finals stage of a major tournament' might be more more accurate, and I'd agree.

---

I dunno. There's a big Monagahan United flag at every game. My mate from Monaghan is both a United and RoI die hard, and I even gave money to the "save the club" whip around he organised before the tournament.

I'd agree with the description on boards.ie, but that's splitting hairs. That's what people mean.

It seems the Irish livers are resistant, because that PDF shows that the Irish are top drinkers in terms of consumption per year and top binge drinkers as well, yet liver disease is low.

I was personally quite uncomfortable with the level of drinking going on in Poland. Thought the atmosphere was rubbish to be honest. Have had a much better time at less glamorous away games where a) there are real football people and b) people are less locked and more interested in talking about football.

Personally I prefer a swim, walk the dog, anything but alcohol to calm the pre-match nerves. Each to their own I suppose. The main thing is that the behaviour of those alcohol fuelled supporters stays well within the realms of social acceptability.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philly

Football isn't just about being in big stadiums and having a sing-song though, that's the point. It's about alot more than that.

---

What are the SUPPORTers who have gone to Poland to SUPPORT their team suppose to do? Be condemned for SUPPORTing their team? We are not talking about football in general terms or Monaghan United. We are talking about Irish supporters who went in their tens of thousands to support their team which they did yet they get attacked for it. Unbelievable. There are some huge chips on some people's shoulders here.

Just wanted to say a few things.

When I watched the match (at a **ty "irish" bar in the middle of knowhere in Italy), it was great to hear the fans singing. My friends were impressed that despite the massive loss they outsang the Spanish. Even tho we couldnt hear it well, it was still as clear as ive ever heard fans sing at matches through the TV.
When i posted on facebook several fans posted that its a the way football should be followed, not violently or aggressively but proudly. Many were envious.

That said my Spanish friend said something like

"but the Irish fans clearly dont care that they lost, i imagine if they lost at rugby they wouldnt still be singing".
this was down to his misconception that Rugby (international or otherwise) is more popular than soccer *because* we are more successful in it...

This is one of the problems that our sky football generation dont really undestand. Its not about winning. Its not about success. You dont follow a team because its successful (which is all too common now for irish fans following english clubs).
Real fans (and not just LOI fans) follow their club, their team no matter what. No matter how bad the coach might be, or the club board, or the players or the stadium etc but follow nonetheless and sing nonetheless...

Look, tbh I think its the fact that a lot of people find the 'best fans in the world' stuff very cringey, and the oh look how great we are comments. If we had heard the Danes singing like that we'd be impressed

The Irish rugby fans don't even sing when they're winning.

There's some massive chips on shoulders alright.

There are definitely casually interested people who made the trip mainly for the spectacle and for the craic, but what these tournaments prove is that there is a demand for a good quality football product among the Irish. Feck all people ever went to watch AIL rugby (I know, I was one of only a couple of hundred every second Saturday to watch Terenure College in the 90s) but, hey presto, introduce a league or a cup with some of the world's best players on show and people turn up in droves.

For years the RoI team drew great crowds until the recession and the Trap borefest turned them away - the latter being more important I reckon. There are a whole host of reasons, many outside its control, why the LOI doesn't draw big crowds. You can't just say the potential support base should just turn up out of some sense of local duty.

I wasn't embarrassed at all by the Irish fans.

1969.

The last time we were beaten by a four goal margin in a competitive match.

I suppose that's worth singing about.

ah get over yourself. We lost to a side that will go down in history. We should have all booed and thrown chairs around town instead. Would that have made you happier?

No, I didn't say that.

An unease with the idea of singing after a series of embarrassing defeats does not mean that one desires the opposite extreme.

The Polish fans were also in fine voice during the tournament from what I could hear. In fact, they feel so strongly about their team that they're willing to fight for it, great spirit, heart and pride. Best fans in the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Predator

An unease with the idea of singing after a series of embarrassing defeats does not mean that one desires the opposite extreme.

---

Exactly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brine3

No, I didn't say that.

---

So you'd have preferred if we just stayed quiet then. It's hard to know exactly what you are saying, other than you seem to be sneering at the thought of supporters singing during / after a bad defeat

As said often enough here, I don't think anyone was anything other than bitterly disappointed by the outcome of that game.

The fans were there to support their team and have a good holiday in Poland at the same time. I honestly don't see the problem with that. The players themselves said that the support made them even more determined to get something out of game 3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

The players themselves said that the support made them even more determined to get something out of game 3.

---

Lip service. I would expect them to be fully determined whether the fans sang or not.

He's saying fans can show respectful support through the pain of difficult circumstances. Like every other countries fans did who went out, you might not understand it but tears and sadness is in itself showing great support. It shows how much the team and the occasion means to you and that you share the players sense of importance in the outcome.

The scenes I've seen from our fans are what I'd liken to what I saw during the Ireland Rugby teams trip to the US a couple of years ago. The match was in a college stadium and the majority of attendants were from the local university. People who had never seen a rugby game before and didn't know the slightest thing of the rules but yet were interested in the occasion and the event. They were just happy to be there and enjoyed the day. They sang when their team did something well, when they conceded, when the ref gave them a decision etc. Singing and jeering out of irony a lot of the time and you could tell the match itself didn't mean the slightest thing to them, but the occasion was everything and they made sure to enjoy it.
Much nicer type of fans in opposition then say mouthy kiwis who the occasion means nothing and the result everything but I know which set of supporters I'd much rather for my country.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

So you'd have preferred if we just stayed quiet then. It's hard to know exactly what you are saying, other than you seem to be sneering at the thought of supporters singing during / after a bad defeat

As said often enough here, I don't think anyone was anything other than bitterly disappointed by the outcome of that game.

The fans were there to support their team and have a good holiday in Poland at the same time. I honestly don't see the problem with that. The players themselves said that the support made them even more determined to get something out of game 3.

---

I suppose for some people, the thought of your team losing, if the team really meant anything to you, is gut wrenching. As we all know, it can leave you in a state where you want to beat the wife and kick the dog and lock yourself in a room for a week. Particularly if you've built yourself up for a particular game/tournament. That's how I react to defeat. Some people hurt that way but react by singing.

The suspicion is that there were a lot of people out there who weren't really hurt by the defeats and just sang along because "begorrah aren't we a great little country and wasn't the beer good and shur it's just an ould sing a long and bit of fun anyway and I'm on me holidays".

If someone was really hurting inside and decided to sing to deal with it, then I take my hat off to them. It's just hard to believe that there were so many of that type of person at the Spain and Italy games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sullanefc

Lip service. I would expect them to be fully determined whether the fans sang or not.

---

So why do fans bother singing at all then, ever?

Jaysus, if they'd turned up in hordes and stayed quiet (as they often do at Lansdowne) they'd get criticised too. It's hard to see how they can win.

Turn up and sing. Embarrassing.
Turn up and don't sing. Embarrassing.
Don't turn up. Barstoolers.

I don't think Germany would have felt compelled to sing in such circumstances but these have been ten hard years for RoI fans and I think they're within their rights to make the most of it while they're there. As far as I could tell, the FoA started in the corner to Shay's right where all the away regulars were (I think) located. If that's the case, then these guys can behave how they want. If it's not the case, it doesn't change my point.

We'd all have preferred if we were celebrating a result, but singing and showing pride in your team and country isn't cringeworthy at all.

Lack of support for the LOI is an entirely different matter, as is just being happy to be there - which was not the case for the vast majority. If some people were just there for the party then that's their call, but I think it'd be wrong to assume that this was the representative portion of the crowd.

Barney, I react on my gut instincts. I feel sick sometimes when we lose or drop silly points. Israel home and away (worst feeling since the Hand era for me), Slovakia away (2-2), Cyprus away and many others down the years hurt like hell. Trust me, by 80 minutes in Gdansk the hurt had long since set in but to me it just didn't feel as bad as, say, Israel away, because we could see it coming and it was expected. Sure I had some naive hope that we'd be hard for Spain to play against but deep down there was no real negative surprise and all that was left was to sing. Also, the reaction was in some way showing that we were taking the defeat on the chin, rather than going off into a sulk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

So why do fans bother singing at all then, ever?

Jaysus, if they'd turned up in hordes and stayed quiet (as they often do at Lansdowne) they'd get criticised too. It's hard to see how they can win.

Turn up and sing. Embarrassing.
Turn up and don't sing. Embarrassing.
Don't turn up. Barstoolers.

I don't think Germany would have felt compelled to sing in such circumstances but these have been ten hard years for RoI fans and I think they're within their rights to make the most of it while they're there. As far as I could tell, the FoA started in the corner to Shay's right where all the away regulars were (I think) located. If that's the case, then these guys can behave how they want. If it's not the case, it doesn't change my point.

We'd all have preferred if we were celebrating a result, but singing and showing pride in your team and country isn't cringeworthy at all.

Lack of support for the LOI is an entirely different matter, as is just being happy to be there - which was not the case for the vast majority. If some people were just there for the party then that's their call, but I think it'd be wrong to assume that this was the representative portion of the crowd.

---

I've no problem with fans singing at all. And if it happened at a LOI ground then I wouldn't give this a second thought. And I'm sure there were genuine fans singing and fair play to them. However, I'd also bet my bottom dollar that there were people who had barely been to any of the qualifiers, have rarely set foot inside a LOI ground, have only gone to see their English team once or twice in their lifetimes that were singing and are revelling in the "best fans in the world" tag and that's a bit tough to take.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Barney, I react on my gut instincts. I feel sick sometimes when we lose or drop silly points. Israel home and away (worst feeling since the Hand era for me), Slovakia away (2-2), Cyprus away and many others down the years hurt like hell. Trust me, by 80 minutes in Gdansk the hurt had long since set in but to me it just didn't feel as bad as, say, Israel away, because we could see it coming and it was expected. Sure I had some naive hope that we'd be hard for Spain to play against but deep down there was no real negative surprise and all that was left was to sing. Also, the reaction was in some way showing that we were taking the defeat on the chin, rather than going off into a sulk.

---

Fair enough, can't argue with that at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by barney

However, I'd also bet my bottom dollar that there were people who had barely been to any of the qualifiers, have rarely set foot inside a LOI ground, have only gone to see their English team once or twice in their lifetimes that were singing and are revelling in the "best fans in the world" tag and that's a bit tough to take.

---

I'd say you're right but I also think you might be overestimating the numbers. I can tell you for sure that the guy behind me was an ignorant ill-informed tw@t!

Here's a post of mine from another forum:

Quote:

---

I got up at 3.30am here in Tokyo to watch the game, and it was the high point of what was otherwise a nightmare.

I don't see what the fuss is about really, although I can agree that there is a slightly annoying element of "Jaysus aren't we great?" about the whole thing (much like after we didn't boo the English anthem in Croke park).

I don't think there is any link whatsoever between the 'goodness' or 'realness' of a fan and how they react after a defeat. People point out that the Germans, for example, wouldn't have reacted in the same way, and that's probably true, but any idea that this makes them better fans, or that they care more about the team than the singing fans, doesn't make any sense to me.

---

I have no issue whatsoever with people singing after games - they can do what they like, singing or booing, it make no difference to me in terms of them being a 'real fan.'

I just wonder whether a lot of people around the world watching the Irish fans behave so well will imagine that LOI games must be like a microcosm of that game - thousands of loyal fans proud even in defeat. I wonder would they still be using such glowing terms about those fans if they knew that a significant percentage of them have next to no interest in the senior league in their own country.

After having a few days to reflect, I'll try and put down my thoughts again on the singing...it might be a bit "stream of consciousness"...

Singing after that tanking and after the poor tactics and standard of play we had seen over 2 games doesn't sit right.
I am sure it was well intended however it was totally misplaced.
Italy would have been a better occasion to sing for the team. We kind of turned up at times.
When now do we get to voice our dissatisfaction at the anti-football/tripe we have been served up by Trap?
Facebook in the immediate aftermath is what really p*ssed me off. The reflective glory that so many people were basking in because the "fans were brilliant" just misses the point in so many ways.
It's reflective of our mentality on a broader scale and that's where the crux of the problem lies.
The video of a very drunk JD with the smattering of fanboys shushing the one guy trying to make a point about the state of Irish football is a disgrace and is also reflective of the mentality of our fans/nationality.
"were here for the beer and the singsong". Sad.

There was a chant last night of "we'll sing when we want, we sing when we want". Fans revelling in singing about themselves.

I think the point of that song was to defy Roy Keane, having probably misunderstood what he said. Really eekers, if you're determined to find fault you can find it anywhere I suppose.

I could barely hear anything in that JD clip on youtube. Was there definitely someone trying to take issue with the state of irsih football with him, or was it just a big silly mush in with the crows shushing so they could hear what JD had to say?

I don't visit Facebook but there's always a big "werent the fans great" thing in Ireland after these events. The big question was whether there were 30,000 so-called barstoolers out for a jolly with only 5,000 proper fans (whatever they may be) truly representative of Irish dootball support or was it more the other way around? I'm not sure Facebook, Joe Duffy, The Star or Marion Finucane can answer that one.

I thought the support was great and just showed how long the last 10 years have been for us. I think the 10 years is a major part of the context this debate has to be framed within.

It's a sign when you're getting more passionate Stutts, your spelling tends to go awry.

Yes, I didn't see any crows anywhere. Just a crowd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think the point of that song was to defy Roy Keane, having probably misunderstood what he said. Really eekers, if you're determined to find fault you can find it anywhere I suppose.

I could barely hear anything in that JD clip on youtube. Was there definitely someone trying to take issue with the state of irsih football with him, or was it just a big silly mush in with the crows shushing so they could hear what JD had to say?

I don't visit Facebook but there's always a big "werent the fans great" thing in Ireland after these events. The big question was whether there were 30,000 so-called barstoolers out for a jolly with only 5,000 proper fans (whatever they may be) truly representative of Irish dootball support or was it more the other way around? I'm not sure Facebook, Joe Duffy, The Star or Marion Finucane can answer that one..

---

Wrt the JD video, the guy was trying to make a point to him about Irish footie. He's a Bohs fan.

I have my own theories about the nature of irish sports fans of all persuasions but I'm not going to get into it now...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eekers

There was a chant last night of "we'll sing when we want, we sing when we want". Fans revelling in singing about themselves.

---

might want to listen to the full chant for the full reason why we sang when we wanted to.

For what it's worth, my opinion on the singing is as follows (sorry if I'm repeating what anyone else has said I'm just back from Poland and I've not read through the thread)
Russia were fined for the behaviour of their fans in Warsaw and have a six point penalty hanging over their heads
Croatia have been fined twice for the behaviour of their fans in three games
England have an investigation into a pitch invasion

We moved the equivalent population of Ennis to another country, where the fans caused no trouble, impressed the locals so much that they never wanted us to leave and have the mayor of Gdansk on record as saying he will nominate us for a UEFA Fair Play award, but for whatever reason we can't accept the praise.

Seriously, what is wrong with us?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

might want to listen to the full chant for the full reason why we sang when we wanted to.

For what it's worth, my opinion on the singing is as follows (sorry if I'm repeating what anyone else has said I'm just back from Poland and I've not read through the thread)
Russia were fined for the behaviour of their fans in Warsaw and have a six point penalty hanging over their heads
Croatia have been fined twice for the behaviour of their fans in three games
England have an investigation into a pitch invasion

We moved the equivalent population of Ennis to another country, where the fans caused no trouble, impressed the locals so much that they never wanted us to leave and have the mayor of Gdansk on record as saying he will nominate us for a UEFA Fair Play award, but for whatever reason we can't accept the praise.

Seriously, what is wrong with us?

---

We are a bunch of scoop monkeys that's what.

Completely with ya Tets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyS1kET_6nI

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

might want to listen to the full chant for the full reason why we sang when we wanted to.

For what it's worth, my opinion on the singing is as follows (sorry if I'm repeating what anyone else has said I'm just back from Poland and I've not read through the thread)
Russia were fined for the behaviour of their fans in Warsaw and have a six point penalty hanging over their heads
Croatia have been fined twice for the behaviour of their fans in three games
England have an investigation into a pitch invasion

We moved the equivalent population of Ennis to another country, where the fans caused no trouble, impressed the locals so much that they never wanted us to leave and have the mayor of Gdansk on record as saying he will nominate us for a UEFA Fair Play award, but for whatever reason we can't accept the praise.

Seriously, what is wrong with us?

---

As people have previously pointed out, there has to be a disconnect with us singing after a defeat and the behaviour of other supporters- this is out of context to the discussion.

Irish fans have behaved and made friends on an away trip the exact same as they always do - they spend loads of money, they don't cause hassle, the fun us always good natured etc. etc. No one is denying that we are not the No.1 fans in the world I think - and we don't need to sing at the end of crushing defeat to prove it.

I wonder how the reaction would be different if we lose 4-0 at home to Germany in the WC qualifiers - will we all stick around after the game for 10 mins and sing the fields of Athenry ? The place would be half empty at the 75 min mark, there will be a nice round chorus of boo's in the stadium at the full time whistle and Denis O'Brien will have to pay Trap his severance the morning after.

Why was it so different after this tournament? What was the point of 4 years of hard work if when we got to the big stage we get destroyed? The players themselves weren't accepting of that.

But the fans, by singing for so long and so loud, send out a message of acceptance, thats how I read it anyway. - Win, lose we are on the booze, and that does our reputation a disservice imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

a message of acceptance, thats how I read it anyway. - Win, lose we are on the booze, and that does our reputation a disservice imo.

---

Your problem is that you interpreted it as a message of acceptance. I didn't, neither did the fans from Foot.ie who were there, and most probably the fans who regularly go the away games, didn't.

I don't see any or much difference between our fans and the Swedish/Danish, fans from one of the smaller countries who turn up in numbers to watch their team play the big boys, bring colour and go home withhout creating a rumpus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geysir

Your problem is that you interpreted it as a message of acceptance. I didn't, neither did the fans from Foot.ie who were there, and most probably the fans who regularly go the away games, didn't.

---

Listen, there is no need to get narky - its my OPINION - not my problem. If my OPINION is not shared by others then I have absolutely no issue with that.

Personally I interpret singing with happiness, happiness after a 4-0 defeat signals to everyone else not there that; we are losing but we are still happy to be here. I do not understand why we would spend so much blood, sweat and tears qualifying if when we arrived we were merely happy to be there. To me, that was the message that came accross, and I don't, like others, understand that mentality. (to use a Trap word) .

I dunno. At 4-0 down in a qualifier people would have left and then they'd have got a rollicking for not sticking around!

RAM, my interpretation was that it was just a grim acceptance of circumstance (not the performance) and that after 10 years of isolation if the team was going out with a whimper, we certainly weren't going to. Part of the spectacle of big time football is the crowd (e.g., I love watching St. Pauli, Sporting Gijon, Bilbao...the fan culture is great). If the Irish team couldn't contribute to the spectacle, the crowd would. Trust me, the mood was actually very despondent among everyone, but not as miserable as say, Israel away, because there was nothing sudden about this car crash.