Where to from now....

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

Excellent performance from Greece to beat Russia. Samaras MOM. Shows what can be achieved by a team with not one world class player. Robbed of a peno as well. They make the most of what they have.

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The difference is Greece have a large number of players playing first team football every season in the Champions League and Europa League for Panathainaikos, Olympiakos, PAOK etc.
Plus you have some of the top greek players playing first team football for big teams in other leagues.

I saw PAOK playing Shamrock Rovers in Tallaght and they were very impressive with very strong, very fast football. They looked alot stronger than some of the big other teams like Partisan Belgrade, FC Copenhagen who recently played in Tallaght and had lots of internationals in their sides.

Ireland by comparison have very few players playing regular top European football and most of the our squad are just premiership squad players who are in and out of their first teams.

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Originally Posted by Crosby87

I wonder if Trap went home and thought about it for a week and decided to step down, would they make Tardelli the Manager? It just seems like he knows the game but would be younger and perhaps more flexible.

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You never know, if we beat Italy, trap might get a job offer somewhere better.

Tardelli was giving out to Trap something terrible in Moscow, telling him to bring on an extra midfielder. So he seems to see the same problems we do.

Trap's strategy was good and incisive but the method(s) used has been found wanting. Some of the reasons for them to be found wanting are outside Trap's control but he is the man to select from the available players and select the ways to get the good and the best out of them. And then finally we are left with the spectacle of our method as being the stick others use to beat us senseless and our method being some kind of fear generator, infecting basic football ability that we know those players have in varying amounts.

I woke up this morning thinking that 4331 would be good, that would work, why not? until I did the maths.

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Originally Posted by geysir

I woke up this morning thinking that 4331 would be good, that would work, why not? until I did the maths.

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In Arabic maybe...

I'm gonna have a game of Pro Ev now and set my team up as 3-3-4 for the craic.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm not saying you're wrong but can you (or anyone) substantiate that?

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We have individual coaches some of them FAI who are doing decent work in some corners of the country but the emerging talent system as I have stated is not fit for purpose.

All you have to do is go to something like the Kennedy cup All youll see is a group of yes men in FAI tracksuits Sponsored cars and clip boards latching onto teams as if they somehow had alot of input into the development of certain players and teams. They have to be seen to be doing something rather than actually doing an effective/Constructive job on the ground at grassroots.

They are looking for physically bigger lads and smaller players are most of time overlooked. They have no clue. Emphasis then for many teams is to overlook the smaller players who could end up being the most skillful players in the future if the talent was harnessed and nurtured.

We need a radical overhaul at grassroots level.

The amount of negativity that is permeating this forum, while understandable, is making me feel flat. Debate about fans, national academies, Trap, line ups, tactics and the opinions of commentators is certainly valid considering our results so far. Should fans be pushing the FAI for a review of what has happened and look for answers? Could it be the opportunity for the FAI to face its demons and to start to tackle the many issues it faces?

I think until such a review is undertaken the many valid points that are expressed on here will remain ideas and no more.

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Originally Posted by gastric

The amount of negativity that is permeating this forum, while understandable, is making me feel flat. Debate about fans, national academies, Trap, line ups, tactics and the opinions of commentators is certainly valid considering our results so far. Should fans be pushing the FAI for a review of what has happened and look for answers? Could it be the opportunity for the FAI to face its demons and to start to tackle the many issues it faces?

I think until such a review is undertaken the many valid points that are expressed on here will remain ideas and no more.

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The real progress from 10 years ago is that such a review will probably happen as a matter of course. The organisation does seem to be light years away from what it once was. No reports of the usual issues of rubbish hotels, lost kit, players squeezing into economy class seat on planes etc.

I can warm to Kerr when he's being humble and balanced in the way he expresses his views. Although I do remember him starting Stephen Elliott, an out-and-out front man, as the right "corner forward" in a 433 at home (Croatia friendly?) and who can ever forget his genius substitution at home to Israel? Still, I think his points are valid.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...18141670.html#


REVERTING TO the usual Ireland XI, with Kevin Doyle’s return, suggests there will be no change to our inflexible system for the final game of this nightmare experience.

The attitude seemingly is thus: It got us this far, it failed, but so what? We’ve had a plan under Trap. Just the one. The players conformed or they were out. It has generally worked, up to the final warm-up game in Budapest, but it has often been skin of the teeth stuff.

There were plenty of warning signs against Macedonia, Armenia and Georgia.

Yes, I know as much as anyone how hard it is to get results on the international stage but it has been ever so dull to watch the Republic of Ireland in recent years.

We have lacked any flair or inventiveness and a lot of people in my big circle have been turned off by it. These are football people to their very core but they just couldn’t stomach the football we played.

Nobody is adopting an “I told you so” stance either. It hurts too much.

Nobody wants to be right about Ireland failing.

What surprised me most of all after seeing the pounding given to us by Russia (who, as an aside, were sussed on Saturday by Greece) in the qualifiers, and again during the Croatia and Spain meltdowns, was the complete lack of a Plan B. Nothing.

As a young coach I always admired the wisdom of experienced managers and how they could make a decision that altered what seemed the inevitable course of a game.

Italy coach Cesare Prandelli is a perfect example. Throughout their qualifying campaign the Azzurri played with a diamond shape of four in midfield.

It was narrow but allowed Pirlo to dictate from its base with support from De Rossi and Montolivo, while Prandelli mostly used Marchisio to assist the now injured Giuseppe Rossi and Antonio Cassano up front.

They ambled through their group finishing above Estonia on 26 points.

But then Prandelli, faced by the mighty Spaniards, changed his tactics.

It proved a masterstroke. He played De Rossi in the middle of what became a five-man back line with tough men Bonucci and Chiellini either side of him.

The match-fixing allegations denied them their regular left back Domenico Criscito, so he selected a debutant in Emanuele Giaccherini against Spain.. We talk about throwing lads in, Prandelli has done it. First cap, no friendly match, nothing. In you go. And the risk paid off.

The overall result of three centre backs, raiding wing backs and a crowded midfield meant Spain’s weaving patterns were confined to ineffectual areas, 30 yards from goal.

That evening I witnessed De Rossi and Pirlo spreading some beautiful passes on the counter to Maggio, Giaccherini and Cassano in the vacant spaces the Spanish defence leaves. The plan was so successful that Prandelli stuck with it against Croatia.

They were far superior in the first half with Pirlo’s set piece goal scant reward for dominating midfield.

Luka Modric hardly got a kick.

But then Croatia manager Slaven Bilic unveiled his Plan B, changing to 4-3-3. The pace of the contest changed immediately. Modric came alive, while Mandzukic scored at the far post, out of sight of the three centre backs.

The point is this. Two coaches, both far younger than Trap and with far less achievements to their name, both had a Plan B, distinctly different from their usual approach but clearly worked upon in advance.

Meanwhile, back at the Irish ranch, we plough on slavishly with 4-4-2, existing in a wonderland of tactical intransigence.

Prandelli may have been a player and student of Trap’s in the past, and has fawned over him at press conferences, but he is no fool.

Last summer’s friendly victory over Italy is irrelevant on the basis that both teams were severely undercooked and Prandelli was still experimenting. The draws against them during the World Cup qualifying campaign, and Trap’s old sparring partner Marcelo Lippi, were impressive results.

Again though, they are largely irrelevant now. Maybe Trap will have a brand new plan for his native land.

Italy need a win. They are having a respectable tournament so far but they are not a great team. They hit you on the counter and there’s an overreliance on the erratic Mario Balotelli. His potential absence through a knee injury may prove a veiled blessing for Italy.

The elegant Pirlo has been a joy to watch but the 33-year-old visibly slowed in the second half against the Croats. Still, we must stop him from conducting the orchestra. Who will do this? Not one of our immovable objects, Glenn Whelan and Keith Andrews, so more likely it will be expected of Doyle or Robbie Keane to help out in midfield without specific instructions, as Walters alleged after Thursday’s torture.

I so much want us to come out of this tournament with something tangible.

The arguments for dramatic change are sound and hard to argue against but they will get lost in translation once again.

We’ll just have to put up with that for now.

The old Plan B cliche. He tried Plan B against Spain. Alas we conceded in the first 4 minutes and dropping back Cox to be the 5th midfielder was dead in the water although we limited Spain to the one goal for the rest of the half. He went back to Plan A and conceded 3 in the second half.

We didn't need Plan B against Croatia. We got back to 1-1 but then Croatia got a goal which should not have stood so it should have been 1-1 at half time. Different game. ANother goal when Shay headed in to the net just after half time and Plan Z let alone Plan B would not have rescued that.

I agree though it (primarily the home games) has not been great to watch. Personally, for the few internationals there are a year I am happy to "suffer" a poor enough game if we get the result. I would go away much happier with a turgid 1-0 than a breath-taking 3-3. I know the two are not mutally exclusive and the empty seats in the Aviva testify that nowadays people want to be entertained as well but I will say this that if we play "entertaining" football and lose, there will be far more empty seats. I was at the 0-1 game against Wales when Big Jack took over and there were about 17k I think even though up to that Irish managers had tried to play the "proper" way.

It must also be remembered that we are only talking about 2 games. The first one we got no breaks and the second one we were played off the park by the World Champions.

Trap's way has got us to a play off and a Finals. People obviously want more than that. However, be careful what you wish for. Perhaps someone else will lead us to the promised land or we might hire a false prophet who will lead us to the wilderness. Me, I prefer someone who knows the way even though it is over a very rutted and harsh landscape and the actual destination is a disappointment when we arrive. At least we are there and not floundering in the desert.

Plan B? He tried something for the first time against the reigning European & World champions. No wonder it ended in disaster. At least play a recognised midfielder in there....but no he went with a striker who has sat on the bench for the past 2 seasons. He had ample opportunity to experiment in one of the endless number of international friendly games we have nowadays but decided not to.

Croatia played us off the park. Foul on Ward or not they would have won that game.

Sorry Owls Fan, can't agree. Plan A isn't even very convincing in qualification. Trap did try a Plan B but an insane one - Cox in midfield - with a generous sprinking of hoofball thrown in.

I'm happy to totally and utterly disregard Spain but Plan B vs Croatia was hoofball with Cox wide left. Nonsense. Croatia had started to dominate before the waxy second goal. Hoofball is not a viable Plan A, B or Z in the modern game.

By all means be a cautious manager reliant on defending well and nicking goals, but tired old 442 can't even be relied upon to do that. Name me one convincing home performance under Trap? Georgia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Armenia, Montenegro (OK, dead rubber), Cyprus - all awful stuff, truly awful.

I am careful what I wish for and I know that change for change's sake is dangerous. I wish for immediate refreshing of the team in only a few positions, with a gradual refreshing of the rest of the squad over 6-12 months, and an immediate reconsideration of approach and tactics. If Trap & Tardelli can do this between them I'd be delighted.

Hodgson would not pick the squad or teams Trap has been sending out. For one Long would be ahead of Cox and rightly so (and I don't think Cox is a bad player just that Long is a better player). McCarthy would have been inbedded in this team some time ago (and yes I know about McCarthy's off pitch personal life stuff but am convinced that they would ahve been sorted a long time ago). Stephen Reid (now injured) would have played some part in the qualifyers. O'Shea would be playing at center half (excellent in that position for Sunderland since MON took over and again would be ahead of Sledge simply because he is a better all round player). McClean would definetely have got some game time. I doubt he would have played Given or Keane. Hypothetical but I'm basing this on how WBA lined out and how England line out now.

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Originally Posted by gastric

The amount of negativity that is permeating this forum, while understandable, is making me feel flat. Debate about fans, national academies, Trap, line ups, tactics and the opinions of commentators is certainly valid considering our results so far. Should fans be pushing the FAI for a review of what has happened and look for answers? Could it be the opportunity for the FAI to face its demons and to start to tackle the many issues it faces?

I think until such a review is undertaken the many valid points that are expressed on here will remain ideas and no more.

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One hundred per cent true. Are you listening Pat Kenny? Maybe you can bring Dunphy, Giles, Brady onto your prime time show and perhaps someone from the FAI and get the whole thing out in the open. We all know it's a lack of technical ability and a lack of proper coaching. And we need to make a decision once and for all as a country if we are going to get behind the LOI and build it, or not.

Otherwise, like Gastric says, it will remain just ideas and no more and we'll still be talking about this in 25 years time.

Pat Kenny was in Gdansk, just as an aside!

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Sorry Owls Fan, can't agree. Plan A isn't even very convincing in qualification. Trap did try a Plan B but an insane one - Cox in midfield - with a generous sprinking of hoofball thrown in.

I'm happy to totally and utterly disregard Spain but Plan B vs Croatia was hoofball with Cox wide left. Nonsense. Croatia had started to dominate before the waxy second goal. Hoofball is not a viable Plan A, B or Z in the modern game.

By all means be a cautious manager reliant on defending well and nicking goals, but tired old 442 can't even be relied upon to do that. Name me one convincing home performance under Trap? Georgia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Armenia, Montenegro (OK, dead rubber), Cyprus - all awful stuff, truly awful.

I am careful what I wish for and I know that change for change's sake is dangerous. I wish for immediate refreshing of the team in only a few positions, with a gradual refreshing of the rest of the squad over 6-12 months, and an immediate reconsideration of approach and tactics. If Trap & Tardelli can do this between them I'd be delighted.

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Here, here!

We all know the tactics and conservative player choices are not going to change. Every indicator points to us not winning any games against Sweden or Austria and losing both games to Germany. Delaney is giving the Status Quo full backing from Poland but I wonder when he gets back to Ireland and has a reality check will his backing for Trap be so fullsome. I like Trap. Believe he did a good job getting us to a play-off and to these finals. But I see a team going backwards. And it would only take a bad result in our first qualifying game for the wheels to come off. And I'm not convinced this is a happy squad.

*hunt*

Without Hunt we have lost every game.

A fact which speaks for it self but to deaf ears.

Lets not forget, the next Euros is supposed to be going from 16 to 24 teams in the finals which should make it easier for us to get back in again.

This might well suit Delaney down to the ground, as some of the ole ole brigade who wouldnt have the money or the commitment to e.g. trek to Brazil for a WC would be quite happy with a Polish style week on the lash every four years and the hard questions that Irish football faces might not get asked or answered.

I would hate to see the FAI get off the hook in this way.

It will be interesting to see how the post mortem from this campaign develops in the weeks ahead.

They are going to end up not expanding it just based off our performance.

Hopefully

Upon reflection I think the spine of our team isn't as diabolically bad as it may seem. The stats for Duff, McGeady and Doyle are actually quite good but they weren't in positions on the pitch where they could do some damage frequently enough. Thinking realistically along the assumption that Trap isn't going to overhaul his system to a 4-5-1 there are some simple chances he could make to the current formula which would make it a lot better.

The 3 key changes we need to make are in two areas of the pitch. Full backs and centre mid. Our problems begun and ended here. O'Shea and Ward cannot distribute adequately from the back and were the prime culprits for losing possession. The other is centre mids never showing for the ball, particularly Whelan who was both rarely a receiver for forward passes and had a poor passing rate in general. His presence is paradoxical in that he's supposed to break up dangerous attacking situations and yet the pressure he puts on FBs for not being an outlet and his poor passing in general means he's causing more danger then preventing.

I have no idea who the solutions are but if we change nothing else we need alternatives to JOS, Ward and Whelan. If we start a) retaining possession after distributing from out back 4, b) retain possesion for longer periods and c) actually play our front 4 into the game to give them a chance we'll be doing something positive.
Coleman, Clark and Gibson come to mind (if Gibson can play in a 2). I hope nobody retires, we need to create competition for positions. Retirements and replacing them with younger players is just switching the chosen 11 to different people, same problem. Involve them all, rotate and pick on form.

Just been watching some of the first half again, we did really well a lot of the time, we were actually looking
like a pretty decent side, I mean my God we were in the Italian half!! (must have been a few nose bleeds for some that far up the pitch).
There was a dreadful cross-field back pass from Whelan which got cut out and lead on to the goal.
I am always against back passes generally and also passing across your own goal, it has to be a 100% certainty.
There was another option on an attacking ball to Andrews in the centre, but we were just to negative to even try it.
Too defensive in mentality and of course knocking the ball around in front of your own goal is not really my idea of
good defence. Even if the ball to Andrews had came to nothing at least it is in their half and time to press and get it back.
Maybe we just got tired? Also we could actually have gone on and got a goal from a forward pass instead it was a back
pass and a goal against us. Make the opposition run back, not yourselves!!
The ref was also biased. We were not that bad really, just few incidents changed the game.
I'd put Wes Hoolahan in midfield he is a good short passer, and it doesn't matter if you are only 5'6 in midfield.

Wes Hoolahan pass success 86.1 only beaten by Duff, but he has twice as many goals and assist as Duff.
Naturally he never got a game.
Give him a sun tan and he woudl not look amiss in the Spanish side!!

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I see Enda Kenny is calling for an AI team, using the flawed logic that because our rugby team is a top 8 team then our footy team is bound to improve markedly too (OK, maybe a slightly over cynical interpretation of what he said). Here's something for him though: successive governments have never shown any interest in funding or supporting Irish football. Maybe you should start there before spouting rubbish about something you know little about.

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I thought that between Gibson, Wilson, Duffy and McLean, we already had created an AI Team - we just did it by stealth

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Just been watching some of the first half again, we did really well a lot of the time, we were actually looking
like a pretty decent side, I mean my God we were in the Italian half!! (must have been a few nose bleeds for some that far up the pitch).

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In the 30c heat, Prandelli let us burn out, he kept Pirlo deep. Italy allowed us the space/played a game where we would burn out.

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There was a dreadful cross-field back pass from Whelan which got cut out and lead on to the goal.
I am always against back passes generally and also passing across your own goal, it has to be a 100% certainty.

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Italy put more pressure after 30 minutes when we were starting to wilt, forced us to make mistakes and/or be ready to pounce when we made the mistake.
Italy's first goal was the result of 30 minutes of football, not just one or five mistakes in a row.

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I'd put Wes Hoolahan in midfield he is a good short passer, and it doesn't matter if you are only 5'6 in midfield.

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If you have a player like Hoolahan in front of midfield (and I wouldn't have him anywhere else) then you would also need to have a player like Gibson/Fahey in your team to get the ball to him and we'd need to play with only one winger,with Duff fading out - one of McClean or McGeady. Adopt a new principle of sacrificing a good player in one position in order to play a decent player in another position.

It wasn't anywhere near 30 degrees in Poznan, I don't think.

Let's say, I have not seen an Italian sweat so much after 5 minutes. Players were gulping water, dripping with sweat in the early stages.

Some numbers:

F12 A12. Our goal difference record at major tournaments up to last month.

F13 A21. Our current goal difference record at major tournaments.

1969. The last time an Ireland team was beaten by four goals in a competitive match.

The one thing the Ireland team always had going for it is that we were difficult to beat. We had some pride. Nobody wanted to play us. People will be lining up to play us now.

Our captain was on TV saying quite casually that "we have to just hold up our hands and accept that we were beaten by a better team." I can't imagine previous Ireland captains talking such crap.

A total sea change in mentality, tactics and personel is required. Nobody is asking us to beat Spain. Our to even get out of groups like these. We just don't want to be whipping boys of the tournament. Croatia are out of the tournament, but at least they played some football.

We don't have a team of particularly strong figures anymore to really inspire our teams into that kind of resistance. Richard Dunne comes to mind, Keith Andrews stood up as well but who else? Hamann spoke about the Dutch side as too many chiefs, not enough indians. I think we had the same problem in reverse. Could have done with Kilbanes presence and experience in retrospect.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

A new team / squad can be built around Westwood, Henderson, St. Ledger, Pearce, Coleman, Cunningham, Wilson, Clark, Gibson, McClean, Meyler, Hoolahan, Doyle, Long, Walters, McCarthy and some others and with a ballsy manager - right now I'm going all nostalgic for Mick.

Above all we really need a few U21s to break into EPL first teams. Mason, Hendrick, Brady, Duffy, Cunningham, Henderson - I'm talking about you!

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Chris McCann could be given a chance within Midfield also?? Weren't Swansea linked with some interest in him recently enough?? Sometimes, its the way of things that players are only considered when they make the move to a bigger club.

This starting 11 explains a lot

-------------------------Aston Villa

Sunderland------Aston Villa------Leicester-----Wolves

Fulham---------Stoke------West Brom-------Spartak Moscow

---------------La Galaxy------Wolves

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Originally Posted by the bear

This starting 11 explains a lot

-------------------------Aston Villa

Sunderland------Aston Villa------Leicester-----Wolves

Fulham---------Stoke------West Brom-------Spartak Moscow

---------------La Galaxy------Wolves

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Very true. And the changes we need will read clubs like: Wigan, Norwich, etc.

Sweeping change can't and won't happen between now and the Autumn.

That said, I'd be interested to see if Stephen Reid could be brought back into the fold at Full Back, as opposed to Midfield. Straight away, he's a viable and experienced option who won't be afraid to supply midfield - if he's permitted.

Coleman should be blooded with priority.

Whelan needs to make way - as mentioned, I'd tentatively like to see McCann get a chance in August.

You'll remember, Whelan himself was fast tracked into the First eleven (as was St Ledger, Lawrence and Ward at certain points).




I'd start McClean on the left wing and I'd switch Duff to right wing. He rotates wings in games already so could cope with right wing deployment.

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Originally Posted by the bear

This starting 11 explains a lot

-------------------------Aston Villa

Sunderland------Aston Villa------Leicester-----Wolves

Fulham---------Stoke------West Brom-------Spartak Moscow

---------------La Galaxy------Wolves

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Most better than Denmark though?

Some technical difficulties there. Where was I???

Ah yes, as mentioned sweeping change won't happen. McCarthy needs to be finally utilized to the full in the course of this campaign.

Up front - Keane to be replaced by Long. Form player starts between Walters and Doyle if we persist with 4-4-2.

would denmark not have lots of champions league experience and title winners from FC copehagen. kjarr at roma, eriksen at ajax, does bendtner still belong to arsenal?

anyway they were knocked out as well

Danes starting 11 v. Holland. Put it in as a 442 but the principle remains. Far superior in my opinion...

-------------------------Evian

Roma------Liverpool------AZ Alkmaar-----FC Copenhagen

VfB Stuttgart---------Ajax------Club Brugge-------Brondby

---------------Arsenal------Brondby

Almost every player playing regular European footie and for good teams in a wide variety of top divisions.

from what ive heard of them kjaer and eriksen are tipped to become worldclas as well

I also think Krohn-Dehli will make a move. He was a joy to watch at times.