LoI/GAA discussion

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

I think the point is, the GAA has it's long history of being in the public eye, everyone loves the GAA, it gets 99 of the 100 pages in a newspaper dedicated to it. It gets all the TV coverage, all the radio coverage, and is praised in every corner.

The LOI is quite the opposite. A long history of neglect, newspaper clippings, is cursed in all corners, and lives in the shadow of EPL and the old firm.

It's very simple really. If the LOI had the same exposure as the GAA there would be no problem.

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Perhaps then the key is for the LoI clubs to concentrate heavily on the local media, who are more likely in any case to be sympathetic, with any extra national attention coming as a bonus. Even in Kerry for instance, both weekly papers will give over four pages to the sport between schoolboys soccer, the KDL and Dynamos and Radio Kerry giving regular updates on all the above, and while they'd still give precedence to district GAA competitions, soccer definitely gets its fair share of coverage. Another thing might be to do regular visits to local primary and secondary schools just for name recognition, motivate kids already interested in the sport.

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

Bust the inside of my lip with an elbow he's lucky it was only a boot I gave him!

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I hope you threw your jersey at the ref when you got the line.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

Nigel, you're right in all ways, but what IF the LOI had the same exposure as the GAA? It would mean increasing the number of teams in the league - actually it would mean increasing the number of leagues. It would mean engaging the local community in order to create a brand, a feeling. It would mean, well, lots of things that the LOI cannot do on it's own, that can only come from integration and agreement between the FAI and all clubs in the country (not just LOI). The easy comparison is this:

The NHL and NFL are often forgotten and get less coverage than the sky leagues over the water over the winter, the real deal is the All-Ireland Championships, and Club Championships. So it's a better comparison between the Leagues and LOI. It would be interesting to see if the LOI and National Leagues get equal exposure. Overall, football in Ireland gets good coverage - with supplements in daily papers, write ups, when the International team play etc. So let's be realistic - we're looking at the LOI as a part of football in Ireland, it's not the FAI and be all and end all of domestic football.

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When I read that I was agog at your surprise! :) I mean the coverage the Habs and the Leafs get here is shocking and as regards the ignorance of the Tim Tebow and Tom Brady clash this weekend... well I never!!!

Anyway back to your point about the Allianz leagues not getting much coverage. I would have to say I would beg to differ.

The league now, in importance, is a different animal to where it was 10 years ago. Inter-county teams are using it as a base to launch their summer and not just to blood a squad and not give a toss. The popularity of the leagues has increased as a result.
The games are better. They have a value that wasn't their before. Why did this happen? A clever repackaging of the product by the GAA.

Moving games to double-headers for example, with the hurling team or in our case this year with local sides so the opening weekend in the league in Croke Park you have 2 whopper games with Dublin v Kerry and Kildare v Tyrone. Or using a previous clash the season before that stuck out to launch the league.
This puts the league into the hearts and minds of people and gets it out there to the extent that with some of the fixtures in Division One and Division Two you have week after week of cracking match-ups.

The key to the LOI learning from the GAA is getting what "packaging" means. The facilities aren't as good I agree but don't sell them to the public.
Sell the good aspects of what the league has to offer now. Attempt to make events out of the fixture lists. Be consistent in arranging games. Eventually it will come good but the work has to be put into the presentation of what we have already and not in the pie in the sky notions of building stadia because that's what will get people in the gates.

We have a great sporting rivalry in the league between Bohs and Shams for example why not use that as a springboard. Let's create traditional games every year on the same date. Let's have situations where people say "Oh yeah, the August Bank Holiday* weekend, It's FAI Cup weekend"

This isn't the golden bullet but it is a tried and tested aspect of a lot of sports leagues around the world that works.

*as an example

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

Again, it's always someone else's fault. There's a reason why it doesn't get the coverage it does; the public don't care enough.

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I actually agree with this, even though I have no love of the GAA, and LoI is my passion. I do think we are consistently missing the point about why that is the case though. The GAA is enmeshed in the national identity in a way that football and the LoI will never be. If you consider the role of the GAA in the cultural nationalism of the late 19th century, and its role in shoring up a fractured Ireland after the civil war, it holds a place where it is above and beyond a mere sport - it symbolically represents Irishness. That's why my mum will watch the Waterford hurlers each summer, but couldn't name a player beyond Dan Shanahan ("he's retired mum"). And even though I and my sons go to see about 25 Waterford United games a year, she doesn't even ask what the score was when she meets us.

Asking whether TV coverage or whatever is at the root of poor LoI attendances is somewhat missing the point. Poor TV coverage (or whatever) is a reflection of where LoI stands in the national imagination, not a cause of where it stands. And that, frankly, is nowhere.

I don't care though. I prefer being part of this tribe rather than that one.

Perhaps it's a fair reflection of the irrelevance of the LOI, but at the same time GAA and schools rugby games with 10 people in attendance manage to get full match reports in the papers. Sometimes I think the only reason LOI gets any coverage in the news is because there are a few proper football journalists fighting for it.

Don't get me started on schools rugby!

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Perhaps it's a fair reflection of the irrelevance of the LOI, but at the same time GAA and schools rugby games with 10 people in attendance manage to get full match reports in the papers. Sometimes I think the only reason LOI gets any coverage in the news is because there are a few proper football journalists fighting for it.

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I know of no other sport worldwide that is so deeply engrained in a national identity. The GAA played a key role in independence (and still plays a key role in a similar vein in the north of Ireland), and as a result it will always (or at least as long as there is a notion of national identity) hold a place in Ireland that LoI never will. I can't think of any other sporting organisations worldwide that played a role like that in a political revolution, or in nation-building, and that is unique to that country. The GAA, like it or loathe it, is a phenomenon.

As for the reporting of schools rugby etc.. grrrrr. That makes me furious. That is simply a reflection of reporters and/or editors reporting on their alma maters. I was born in NW England of working class Irish parents, and was brought up playing football and cricket. When we moved back to Ireland, I played cricket at college. We played a match in Dublin against Trinity (this was back in 1989, before intervarisities cricket became a relatively big deal, with proper tournaments and stuff) and to my disbelief a full report was in the Irish Times the next day. There were six (six - count 'em) people watching the match.

I think the Star is perhaps the only paper with an editorial commitment to the LoI. The rest, as you say, is probably down to committed journalists. Thank God for extratime.ie Those boys and girls do a fantastic job.

The Mirror and the Sun are decent too. But as you implied, there's a pretty obvious class division.

The GAA are far more creative when it comes to promoting themselves, and playing the old corporate social responsibility card that goes down well at local level. This is in today’s Irish Times:

‘THE GAA has pledged to provide up to 200 internships through the Government’s JobBridge initiative.
‘The association said it was initially offering 126 such posts through its JobBridge internship scheme, with 13 people already engaged with the initiative and more vacancies planned.’ (The rest is at http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...310196490.html)

I’d be pretty confident there are a lot of young marketing and management/administration graduates who would give their eye teeth to get work experience in an LoI club, or with the FAI. A marketing and admin assistant at each club is (guessing two divisions of 12) 48 ‘jobs’. And then there’s the regional and national structure of the FAI. Maybe it’s not feasible and the FAI have already discounted it, but what’s the betting it never crossed their minds? I posted in another thread that there is a dearth of creative thinking in the LoI; the GAA, though, seem to be able to adapt to every new circumstance and use it to their advantage. That's what has helped them to become deeply embedded in the national consciousness .

Don't even talk to me about JobBridge. Utter exploitation the LOI would do well to steer clear of. Offering opportunities to qualified fans would be a different matter though.

edit: to make it clear, internships are useful when there are experienced professionals who can help the intern progress to a proper job. League of Ireland clubs don't have these people, and I suspect the GAA doesn't have close to 200 experienced heads to do it either.

This goes back to something I mentioned earlier and I'm still puzzled as to the actual person who said it (Giles or Dunphy maybe) - the make up of the admin of the different sports and those they serve. LOI is regarded as fly by night and marginal, it takes real effort to move from this. There is a more educated following in the LOI now than a generation or 2 before (if we're talking about movement from a working to middle class group), though the thinking remains the same. The divisions between areas of football are too great and I always sense a lack of willingness to engage with progress.

BS, you're completely right about the packaging of the NL (I won't shock you again), Dublin have made great waves in this, though other counties are doing a good job. If the LOI can aspire to this, then it can only be a good thing.

I agree on the need for proper direction, so the interns can really learn on the job. But, as you say, Charlie, fans with qualifications (and maybe prior involvement) could be OK, and wouldn't be exploited. The bigger point, though, is that regardless of whether the scheme is good or not (and I'm very sceptical about it) the GAA were able to show themselves as an organisation that 'understands' social concerns that affect them. No guessing that a lot of their interns will be intercounty players just out of college, who would otherwise be destined for London or Ameri-cay.

Anyone who can't see that the LOI can learn things from the GAA is as bad as the lads who came up with the "ban" and all those who continued to vote for it.

The LOI should be looking at non-leagues in the UK, GAA, cricket, club rugby. Anywhere.

Can we import a GAA "model" and impose it on an LOI club? No.

However can we look at methods of the way the GAA works in areas such as
- Local media
- Member engagement
- Involvement with schools/underage
- Merchandise

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Perhaps it's a fair reflection of the irrelevance of the LOI, but at the same time GAA and schools rugby games with 10 people in attendance manage to get full match reports in the papers. Sometimes I think the only reason LOI gets any coverage in the news is because there are a few proper football journalists fighting for it.

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You not see the same with soccer? Come on now, you see it in Herald the time big match reports from local games with nobody there! Absolute nobody teams with a nearly full page match report!

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Originally Posted by MariborKev

The LOI should be looking at non-leagues in the UK, GAA, cricket, club rugby. Anywhere.

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Interesting you should mention that, because League Two/Conference clubs seem to have broadly the same attendance levels, financial difficulties, clubs winding up etc, even though they've substantially less competition from other sports. The provincial rugby teams would also be worth studying, 15 years ago they were only playing each other in front of tiny crowds, but they got much greater backing from the IRFU than the FAI gives League of Ireland clubs.

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

Oh yeah and soccer people don't throw digs in on the GAA? You on many soccer forums, the bitterness drips out of LOI people when it comes to the GAA. I put it down to jealousy.

I support both sports and couldn't care less about other sports. Good luck to them all, it's just sport at the end of the day. In terms of brawling in GAA games, it's a mans game. Some hits you, you hit them back. I should know; I'm presently suspended for it:D

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TA to what do you put down the anti fooltball bitterness so prevalent among GAA ? Jealousy, or their bitterness "different" ?

I have no problem with either code and although have a preference for football I have been to Croker and Parnell Park on many occassions (and occassionally further afield). I would have no problem accepting the LOI is a basketcase and often its own worst enemy but similarly I have no problem saying the GAA is/was a sectarian, insular sport with little or no tolerence of other sports. The evidence for both statements is pretty conclusive.

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Originally Posted by MariborKev

Anyone who can't see that the LOI can learn things from the GAA is as bad as the lads who came up with the "ban" and all those who continued to vote for it.

The LOI should be looking at non-leagues in the UK, GAA, cricket, club rugby. Anywhere.

Can we import a GAA "model" and impose it on an LOI club? No.

However can we look at methods of the way the GAA works in areas such as
- Local media
- Member engagement
- Involvement with schools/underage
- Merchandise

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Agreed on all of this. One thing that is often overlooked is how much LOI clubs can learn from each other. I've attended a few meetings for Harps on the marketing side of things and just getting together with people from other clubs is great- the level of knowledge, passion and hard won experience is incredible. I'd love to see more gatherings of the clubs where they get together to see what they can learn from one another. Obviously there may be a reluctance to help out rivals- but in my experience everyone can learn something so everybody wins. Certainly I found when working on Harps' strategic review that LOI clubs can be cagey (or just too busy to help out) but interestingly the Irish League clubs were incredibly open and helpful. The feeling of 'football family' seems to be stronger up there (although of course my sample wasn't massive so maybe it was skewed). The FAI would do well to facilitate more opportunities for clubs to showcase what they're doing in various areas to each other and let the lessons and ideas from around the league flow freely.

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

You not see the same with soccer? Come on now, you see it in Herald the time big match reports from local games with nobody there! Absolute nobody teams with a nearly full page match report!

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Er, like between who? I don't see papers reporting on Salthill Devon or Monaghan.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Er, like between who? I don't see papers reporting on Salthill Devon or Monaghan.

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CD presume he means the Herald junior supplement (Tuesday nights ?). Always laugh to see the AIL rugby games RTE foist on us with crowds that would embarrass any LOI club and the camera fogging up due to lack of shelter from the rain (Facilities my ass)

Little doubt LOI the poor relation in media - often our own fault. When the Irish Times brings out a supplement for schoolboy soccer (as for rugby) we will have a level playing field (media wise).

Agree fully with Mr A post above. Sport we can learn most from is football (each other) many excellent club initiatives out there that could be used/tailored for clubs elsewhere. Some forum possibly run through FAI for discussion might be helpfull and would help bridge divides. The one area I feel we can most learn from other sports in the unity of approach adopted by GAA, IRFU etc in promoting their sports compared to the lack of interaction between LOI and FAI

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

You not see the same with soccer? Come on now, you see it in Herald the time big match reports from local games with nobody there! Absolute nobody teams with a nearly full page match report!

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There is a world of a difference between the football reports in the Herald (which is, after all, only a local paper) and the Irish Times turning over full pages to reporting on u16 rugby matches.

With respect, you seem awfully defensive about the GAA, in the same way some posters are being very defensive about football. (not "soccer", you'll note.) Most of these observations about the GAA and LoI are uncontentious to anyone trying to be some bit objective.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Er, like between who? I don't see papers reporting on Salthill Devon or Monaghan.

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Like sunday league games, you telling me you've never seen them in the paper?

Sunday league - like adults? I don't really keep an eye out for it to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Er, like between who? I don't see papers reporting on Salthill Devon or Monaghan.

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http://monaghanunited.tumblr.com/post/12379302819/star1

And possibly in honour of our ex-Lazio (then) goalkeeper:

http://monaghanunited.tumblr.com/pos...ta-dello-sport

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gael...a-2988190.html Wonder did someone up in the fortress of evil read this tread in between torturing pensioners and single parents.

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Originally Posted by culloty82

Interesting you should mention that, because League Two/Conference clubs seem to have broadly the same attendance levels, financial difficulties, clubs winding up etc, even though they've substantially less competition from other sports. The provincial rugby teams would also be worth studying, 15 years ago they were only playing each other in front of tiny crowds, but they got much greater backing from the IRFU than the FAI gives League of Ireland clubs.

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Yeah but there's basically TWO provincial rugby teams in this country.
It's easy to focus the resources on them.
The AIL might as well not exist as far as the general public are concerned.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gael...a-2988190.html Wonder did someone up in the fortress of evil read this tread in between torturing pensioners and single parents.

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Interesting. So, the GAA President himself admits that county managers are getting paid, against their own rules. Based on his admission (and not my speculation), these payments could not therefore be being declared for tax purposes, so both the county boards and managers would be in breach of criminal law.

And yet Revenue have met with the GAA in advance of audits. And now the GAA will be meeting each county board to tell them how to prepare their books for audit. What does that mean? Surely each board is legally bound to keep accurate records as it is? Is this another way of saying they will show them how to hide what has been going on?

In today's climate, how is any of that legally or ethically justifiable, by Revenue, the GAA, county boards, or those in receipt of payments?

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gael...a-2988190.html Wonder did someone up in the fortress of evil read this tread in between torturing pensioners and single parents.

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I'm not sure much will come of it - the Revenue is completely understaffed as it is, as seen by the whole pensions debacle. If they are going to do it, it's because they have a very good chance of getting a lot of cash.

I can only assume payments to coaches in club rugby and soccer are all above board and fully tax compliant.

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Originally Posted by gormacha

Interesting. So, the GAA President himself admits that county managers are getting paid, against their own rules. Based on his admission (and not my speculation), these payments could not therefore be being declared for tax purposes, so both the county boards and managers would be in breach of criminal law.

And yet Revenue have met with the GAA in advance of audits. And now the GAA will be meeting each county board to tell them how to prepare their books for audit. What does that mean? Surely each board is legally bound to keep accurate records as it is? Is this another way of saying they will show them how to hide what has been going on?

In today's climate, how is any of that legally or ethically justifiable, by Revenue, the GAA, county boards, or those in receipt of payments?

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Ways and means, there are ways managers can get paid (in effect) and not be liable for tax - expences,travel costs (milage) etc. There are however Revenue criteria around these and I suspect the GAA will be advising clubs/counties how to stay within the rules/guidelines in place.

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Ways and means, there are ways managers can get paid (in effect) and not be liable for tax - expences,travel costs (milage) etc. There are however Revenue criteria around these and I suspect the GAA will be advising clubs/counties how to stay within the rules/guidelines in place.

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The rules are pretty strict though, and fairly low. If I recall correctly, all LoI clubs were audited and hammered on this issue following Rovers examinership and the hit revenue took. A lot of LoI clubs had to reduce expenses/ pay more tax on the payments to players after revenue deemed them to be tax deductable.

I'm sure I'm just a bitter LoI fan, but it does read very poorly that Revenue met the GAA ahead of audits to give them a chance to be compliant, rather than going after unpaid due taxes. Given the figures that are common knowledge, and the fact that most managers have "day" jobs as well, there'd be circa 50% due on anything above what the revenue lay out as non tax allowable expenses (for the last 6 years too).