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What a schoolboy club they were!! Bit concerning that Home Farm, Belvo and Cherry Orchard don't seem to be all that well represented in some of our underage sides these days, though in fairness maybe it is partly due to other clubs really coming on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Possibly because they're supplying players to English academies at younger ages, but also because a lot of players are emerging from clubs in suburban north Dublin rather than the traditional areas around the city. There are still players jumping across from Orchard and Kevin's - most recently Alex O'Hanlon and Jack Byrne - but it's good to see more of a spread. It's also good to see players from the traditional feeder clubs going into the LOI and then making the jump across the water, like Conor Sammon, Enda Stevens and Stephen Quinn.
A big problem I'd see is that even if the players from Belvedere, Cherry Orchard or who ever wants to stay at home they still have to move clubs. So at 15 or 16 your friends are moving to United, Liverpool or whoever your going to St. Pats or Shamrock Rovers or whoever. You are seen as a failure. If there was a progression from playing youth football to playing LOI with the one club players would feel that they will get their chance if they are good enough. There would be less pressure on players to leave Ireland as they would still be playing at a reasonably high level and would have a bit of loyalty to the club. This would also encourage players to play LOI for last year or two as they would be going back to a club they already played for. Players would know that they will get a contract if they continue improving and would probably avail of a better standard of coaching if the likes of Shamrock Rovers and other LOI teams were given support by the FAI for a couple of years to develop their own players and coaches. You could also have a national academy for the cream of the crop feeding into these clubs too.
I think a Celtic League system would work if done properly. It would probably be a 16 team league starting off with four clubs going from each country. You would need a second and maybe even a third division to feed into the league with the next four from each country going into these. The problem in Ireland would be to spread the clubs going in geographically so that there wouldn't be a concentration of clubs from Dublin which would impact on fan bases. You could have Sligo, Derry, Limerick and Shamrock Rovers in the top division. These clubs would have the most chance of competing as they would get decent crowds and all have decent infrastructure with Limerick using Thomond Park. All the clubs would need to have teams from under 12 up and this would help us produce a better standard of player. Young Irish kids would have something to aim for without moving abroad. Celtic and Rangers would still have a big head-start but we could eventually catch up. In theory a youth league between the teams in a Celtic League would improve the standard of all four national teams. How many Irish lads are playing in Scotland at a similar level to the LOI just because they can play professionally.
Between the 4 countries you have a population of 15 million people. So you would have a bigger number of people interested in watching the league. This could lead to TV deals with the BBC, Sky, ITV and RTE. All would be interested if the league had a higher profile. Our population and support base is too small to support a professional league and we need domestic professional teams to improve. At the moment we are at the mercy of the English system as to how our young players develop and this clearly hasn't worked. The young people would get behind teams if it was marketed well from scratch and over a few years people would get interested like the rugby. Many of Munster, Leinster and Connaught Rugby fans wouldn't have gotten interested in rugby only for the higher profile.
Brady enters this debate and makes some very pertinent points about schoolboy soccer in Ireland.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29108586.html
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Originally Posted by squareball
I don't think our population is too small to support a professional league, if only they'd actually come out and watch the one we have. Norway manage fine, so do Scotland, Denmark, Finland, Croatia, Uruguay, and Slovenia, for example.
I do think a Celtic league would work in principle, but I don't think the Scottish clubs would ever go along with it, it would take a very long time for them to ever see the benefits over what they have now, and I don't think 8 out of the 12 SPL clubs are going to vote themselves into a lower division.
I'm still firmly convinced that if the LOI was marketed well from scratch we could average almost 5,000 a match in the Premier division after 10 or 15 years. And I think with a vibrant domestic league with a bit of money in it from increased exposure, the clubs would have the resources to keep young players at home and develop them.
how many of those countries have draws from other sports comparative to Ireland?Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
e.g. in Limerick very few people will go to every Munster, Limerick GAA and Limerick FC games simply because of the cost involved. Munster are the big draw because of their success and the quality of opposition they attract, Limerick GAA attract a large support both from the city and the county, leaving Limerick FC with its relatively limited number of supporters
For the record, I regularly attend Munster games on the weekend, Limerick FC games when I can, and make it to as many Limerick GAA games as I can, but my preference is in that order.
Norway has skiing, which is huge. I know the seasons don't overlap, but neither do the football and rugby seasons. Slovenia and Croatia have basketball and ice hockey, both of which are absolutely massive. In Scotland, football is pretty much the only show in town, and I know less about Denmark and Uruguay, but as per wiki, handball is very popular in Denmark, and I know they have a semi-pro volleyball league as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Using GAA and rugby as an excuse for why people don't support the LOI is just that in my opinion; an excuse.
My two cents but people don't really support rugby or GAA either if you think of "support" from the perspective of a 8/9 month season. In GAA it's a compressed schedule for all Ireland that may only last a couple of games and the league continues to be poorly "supported". Rugby crowds fluctuate wildly depending on the competition and opposition and you have to bear in mind that these are provincial teams which I think will attract more floating or occasional attending fans.
I think our biggest challenge is that we simply just don't have a true fan culture in Ireland.
There was 9000 last weekend at the Ulster North West "Derby", for a league game in February. If a LOI Dublin Derby could get something close to that you would be laughing.
Things are supported in Ireland its just not necessarily supported in the way people see in football.
Ignoring them as a reason is equally myopicQuote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Agreed, but a lot of people seem to say "Ah sure there's rugby and GAA, so why bother, it's impossible to get numbers up anyway". The situation in other countries would seem to disprove that. Ireland is not some sort of magical special case, plenty of countries of similar size can sustain several sports at a high level.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Ah, but it is a magical special case, its our magical special place.
Honestly, all I'm seeing in your example is event-junkyism... in other words that sort of attendance for the league is the exception as opposed to the rule. Don't get me wrong, I agree, it'd be great if LOI could get a few one off crowds of 9000! But I hope you're not trying to argue that the league is well "supported"...?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I'm saying its not getting 9000 at every game, but I'd suggest throughout the league campaign you will see almost that many for one game a week or if not at least every 2nd week, and average them out with all the All ireland matches and back door games, and you have a fairly high average, over a per-longed period. If you even got that for one game every second week you would be doing well(in the LOI), that's the point I am making. How many games in the whole season of the LOI, would get say 4+K? Id imagine it has to be a Shamrocks rovers game(even in Cork) to pull in that crowd?
If you take it in the overall context, even if its event junkyism as you refer to, it would be a huge increase in LOI attendances to match something similar.
I think a change in mindset, not least in what people think is required to support would be most welcome and would start something off.
Attending a GAA national league game in winter is hardly the stuff of event-junkeyism.
I wouldn't have any faith in a Celtic league competition that Peadar suggested, not even to supplement a LOI season. A league is a local affair.
I agree. That's why I said "Don't get me wrong, I agree, it'd be great if LOI could get a few one off crowds of 9000!"Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
My point is that we don't have a fan/support culture in Ireland when it comes to live sport. A crowd of 9000 for a big derby game doesn't prove otherwise. Given the catchment population its actually not that big. And the fact that this is considered a big (in terms of the league) crowd for a big derby whereas it might be 5 times that in the AI speaks to event junkyism, in my opinion.
Ya, but like the rugby it could be seen the same way.
You see it from a footballing context of going every week to support your club or at least every second week for all the home games. In Gaelic football and hurling it is more chosen alright, but you are dealing with two sports over two different weekends generally. I think many of the NFL games would get 9000, in fact I'd imagine that at least 2 games got that, Mayo played dublin that weekend too, even though it was on TV id imagine the crowd was somewhere similar(unfortunately I cant find the actual attendance). Call it whatever you want, but if the LOI had attendances like that even sporadically it would make a big difference.
I know how I see it. That's how I defined "support" in my first post. It's a pretty global concept/definition so I think it's a fair barometer to judge by. I included rugby in my original post because that's how I see it too, for the most part event junkyism as opposed to fan culture. Nothing you are posting is realistically challenging that statement.
And.............. I agree. That's why I said "Don't get me wrong, I agree, it'd be great if LOI could get a few one off crowds of 9000!". I can only agree with one of your points so many times!
We could only realistically find out if it is based on attendances and comparisons.
Because club games can get very big attendances as well in Gaelic football and hurling especially out of the group stages within County, then provincial, then All-Ireland. All these things have to be taken into consideration in GAA, again its relative to the size of the catchment area as well or per head. There is far more to support in GAA between things like the relevant cups pre-NFL/NHL, the NFL/NHL, the club championships, the county championships and All-Ireland. It would be impossible and wholly unrealistic to think that a "supporter" would have go to all to not be considered an event junkie.
Actually the more I think about it, I don't think event junkyism is correct for GAA in Ireland, sure you get more attendances at the bigger all-ireland matches, but relative you get big attendances at club games in championship too.
You're taking this into irrelevant territory. Youre getting hung up on and offended by my references to event-junkyism.
The bones of my initial post again were.... We don't have good, representative, regular and sustained attendances in any sport on the island. We do have events that achieve higher than normal attendances but these are largely the exception and/or are not sustained longer than a couple of weeks with the exception of the AI which is essentially a summer long event.
I'm not saying we don't have fans in any of these codes. We do. We just don't have a fan culture as a nation when it comes to attending sports which would see proportionate and sustained attendances across all relevant sports.
And of course, I'd love if the LoI could creatively tap into some of the event junkyism. But we don't have the expertise and resources to do it ourselves and we don't have the support from the FAI to enable it.
Stu, my old chum, I'm not getting hung up or going into irrelevant territory, its just the more I thought about your event junkyism within the GAA, the more I thought it incorrect. Without sounding patronising, I'm not sure you appreciate/understand the ethos of the GAA in terms of club before county etc. No doubt there is an element - in every sport - that latch onto the big day games, but I think overall through all the different levels played, its supported well relative to the available population for those levels. For example on any given day at the start of the year over the course of a week if you were a dual club you could have more than 4 games including county go go to. Its not practical for a "supporter" to go to every game, let alone probably 2 so 1 is more likely. Lets take the St brigids v Crossmaglen club game a few weekends ago, Brigids brought over 4000 to that game, that's a sizeable chunk even given their catchment area, and its also a big number that would have more than likely missed the following County game.
I know from many of my friends, clubs, people I know through some of the PRO work I have done, they follow the local club more than they do the County, as in the club comes first, but they will still support the county. Its the same throughout the country, granted the numbers will be low relative to the catchment area of the club, but there are 100s of clubs like this the length and breadth of the country.
The point I am trying to make is that I think there is a supporter culture in the GAA, at a decent, and more than sustainable level for said code, I'm not denying there is an element of event-junkyism or neutrals jumping on the bandwagon, but I believe there is what you call a "supporter" element as defined by global meaning you refer to.
While your point about levels of support may be valid. Giving the figures for an all ireland semi final doesn't really counter stu's argument, and as such you're probably venturing into irrelevant territory.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
That's the most recent attendance I had to hand, it was a relevant example to the time in question and all the games being played. Everyone knows the GAA don't like to make their attendances "official", so its very hard to get figures.
Event junkeyism is not evident in the GAA NFL, with the exception of the first game under lights at Croke Park. And that event is waning in attractiveness, to becoming a 'run of the mill' NFL game. The NFL is regarded as a secondary competition, a warm-up competition for the AI.
Winning the NFL is not regarded as a big thing, getting relegated is not a big thing. It's usually the dedicated supporters who go to these games. Getting a 9k attendance to Tyrone v Donegal is 'normal' in Ulster.
Why would people tend to choose to support the club or country more? Why can't they be rabid about both, or luke warm about both?
But this derby 'event' is an outlier, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Unless Tyrone and Donegal are getting around 4k for less attractive nfl fixtures then then your evidence contradicts your argument!
Tyrone v Donegal is not a derby match as such, Derry and Donegal is derby material.Quote:
Originally Posted by A N Mouse
I don't know about Donegal but Tyrone have a hard core of 4k for league attendances. An attractive fixture between Ulster teams just attracts more dedicated supporters to come, attracts the away supporters to travel. Even a low level (pre NFL competition) McKenna cup final in Ulster will attract a 7k to 9k attendance.
Depends very much on where you live/socialise (bragging rights). I know at least one armagh man maintains they are tyrone's biggest rivals - most disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I'll admit to knowing next to nothing about it. But notice you've specified the final, what are the other rounds like - against the universities or that?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I think it's a valid, if unrelated, point that gaa is structured such that involvement more or less equals (financial) support of the county.
However support is manifest by regular attendance. Picking and choosing which games to attend based on prestige, rivalry, or a team's current success is either event junkeyism or bandwagoning. Neither is in or of itself a bad thing, hopefully a few will stick around and join the core support.
No code about here is immune to it, I just don't see the sense in trying to deny it.
I don't either, but as you and stu try and say I got hung up on what you call event-junkyism, I call it that you are hung up on what event-junkyism is. That size support for nfl games is certainly not event-junkyism, that's the point here.
I think your judgement is clouded on what exactly you see event-junkyism is in relation to football as opposed to GAA.
You don't get it and you profess to know next to nothing, then I suggest you just accept the testimony of people who do or keep an open mind at least :)Quote:
Originally Posted by A N Mouse
So, GAA supporters who are connected to their sport through a club based structure are event junkies if they go to a lowly McKenna cup final and not go to see their county in some (almost) practice game with a 3rd string team against a University team? Am I understanding you right?
Okay, so there is no event junky mentality whatsoever in GAA. Next!
(by the way Paul, given that my parents are from and most of my family lives in Glenamaddy and Dunmore and i spent an inordinate amount of time there until well into my 20's, I get the point you are making about club football vs county. I hopped on a number of associated bandwagons in my time - i was exactly the kind of event junky I am now talking about).
What i mean about irrelevance, my old chums, is that i started out making a general and pretty rational observation. We are now arguing about McKenna Cup attendances which are irrelevant to the general statement and dont actually counter it in any way as AN Mouse has excellently argued while i was sleeping... The amount of debates on here that argued down to the micro level is pretty off-putting. A 9k attendance in a NFL game doesnt dispel the fact that we are overwhelmingly a nation of, for want of a less offensive term, event junkys. Apart from AI, we cannot sustain proportionate crowds over an extended season (8-9 months) in any code. The outliers you hold up as examples actually support this.
Eh? nobody said that. There's little or none in the NFL never mind the McKenna cup as A N Mouse tried to argue.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Be inspired by the indisputable facts, that Irish people can attend sporting events of a lowly stature, in reasonable numbers, the type of numbers that if transferred to a LOI situation could sustain a professional club.
The LOI have different problems with attracting people who are interested in football to attend their events.
A N Mouse did the contesting and argued very badly in my opinion.Quote:
We are now arguing about McKenna Cup attendances which are irrelevant to the general statement and dont actually counter it in any way as AN Mouse has excellently argued while i was sleeping.
The fact that you spent time in Dunmore and Glenamaddy, two of the biggest most boring sh1tholes I've ever known should dispel you from any discussion. :D
That word throws me somewhat, given what we have discussed earlier. The GAA season is not over 8-9 months. You are still looking at it from a footballing context, and not some global context you referred to earlier, the NFL season in America runs over seventeen weeks along/in addition to the NFL playoffs, for example. Every code and season is different and you have to see it from that individual sport, if you are going to use some "global" definition of said term.Quote:
Apart from AI, we cannot sustain proportionatecrowds over an extended season (8-9 months) in any code
Finally, GAA (again) is - somewhat - different in that for the All-Ireland series the structures for ticket distribution is through clubs, not just for the two participating counties hence you get a lot of neutrals. These will obviously swell attendances and though you would not likely see them at other County games of those participating teams, you would likely see them at their local club/county games.
We shall agree to differ stu, my old chum :D
Im certainly not going to argue that one!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Fair enough old buddy, old pal - pistols at dawn instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Might I suggest you heed your own counsel when it comes to the loi :pQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Assuming there was no reason they couldn't attend those games, nfl games or championship games and that was the only game they choose to attend what would you call them? Selective? Refined?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I make no distinction between football, gaa, rugby or whatever. If there no other impedemnt to attendence then your support can be called into question.
If 4k is some kind of average for league games, why do we still hear about poor attendance?
Could it be because of the size of the bandwagons for big days out at hq?
Proportionate is a good word. A loi club would be doing well to bring 10k on a big day out. I'd suggest that given that, loi attendance is proportionate to nfl. Ergo both suffer from not holding to people who go for a day out - call them what you will.
GAA is an interesting one since, uniquely I think, the majority of the season is basically just a warm-up for what can be as little as one game in the summer. It would be like if the whole LOI season was just to determine rankings for a 20-team play-off, but possibly even less meaningful than that. In that context, it's actually quite remarkable they get decent crowds for any game outside the AIs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Not following GAA as much as I used to.
What I do know, is that Donegals first home game this season attracted a mere 300 people in the McKenna cup.
Donegal v Tyrone in the National League attracting 9,000 was quite a substantial figure for such a game. I would go as far as suggesting it's one of the largest attendances the National League groups have attracted in quite a few years.
All the rest of Donegals league games have had less than 5,000 at them. And there's still HUGE hype around the Donegal team here. Getting miles of media coverage ahead of any other sport.
This is good stuff.
So is the verdict for a National Academy or against? :D
I think this websites biggest crime is that only the selected few (I call them the 3 wisemen) can make polls. I think it would be awesome if we all could.
A National Academy would be brilliant, but I think League Of Ireland clubs having proper academies is the logical next step. If the best young kids at Crumlin United, Lourdes Celtic, Cherry Orchard and the hundreds of other local clubs were going to Rovers or Pats, or the lads at Home Farm and St Kevin's etc were going to Bohs, then the standard of the LOI would ultimately improve immensely in the following years I think.
10-15 years ago, it was hard enough for young players going to England and trying to make it at some of the biggest clubs in the world. Now, they are up against the bright young things from Rio or Lagos, as well as the talented local lads. I think as well that young fellas aren't as tough or independent as they used to be (big generalisation I know). A mate of mine has a lad that Liverpool are keen on. Lovely young fella and very good young player but I'd be surprised if he's ever even washed a plate in his life. It's hard to see a fella like that making the grade at a hue club like Liverpool coping with the mental hardships of being away from home at such a young age, when all his life he's had it so easy.
For such young lads, a proper academy league might be the difference between them becoming league of ireland regulars or moving to a Liverpool when they are a bit maturer at 18 or 19, than ending up in the football scrapheap disillusioned by 16 or 17.
Dont worry Bungle if he is that good he will have someone to wash his plates, most likely an agent.