Printable View
This isn't strictly true. Provided the debts were taken on in good conscience, Bohs are fully entitled to restructure their debts and negotiate with creditors like Jicked said. They can even offer equity in the club's assets as part of the deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
You say Dalymount is the reason Bohs can't stiff their creditors, but in reality it's the only reason they don't have to.
Or more correctly its the reason why creditors won't accept the 4% figure that Rovers paid, or the 15% Cork paid.
Same outcome, yeah. It's all a moot point unless Bohs are actually forced to default though.
Actually we renegotiated the contracts (by way of severance) technically we did not owe them anything for next season as they had not yet fulfilled their contractural obligations and when was it suggested they would get "nothing" if they didnt accept ? Think you are mixing up shams 05 with Bohs situation which are toally different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
Glad you think shams are "well run" despite racking up considerable defiit with no assets, sounds like assured business plan to me :o
we have another thread for Bohs financial turmoil.
This one is for Bohs managerial turmoil.
Thanks.
And the weekend latest threads for Bohs' on-the-pitch turmoil:cute:Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
exactly. Its never boring! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dfx-
Something is puzzling me about this thread.
Shamrock Rovers supporters, while putting the boot in to Bohs, are seemingly gloating at the fact that they were cute enough in 2005 to welsh on their debts. And don’t try to convince the rest of us that paying 4% isn’t welshing.
In the light of this recent record they are asking (demanding of) the rest of us to accept their bona fides as ‘a well run club’.
I’m not aware that Bohemians had welshed on their debts. Have I missed something. Or is this just a new version of the old fashioned and well-established Rovers arrogance.
Be assured of this…no LOI club has a monopoly on stupidity.
I don't know what "welshing" means, but Bohs weren't in a position to pay their players what they had agreed to. I've no idea if that's "welshing" or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by orielabu
No-one is demanding anything of what you believe, if you want to think we're a badly run club because you don't like it us I'm sure most of us will cope.
It wasn't being cute re: examinership, it's a legal process designed for just that type of sitaution, and with the consent of creditors. To learn more about the process, see today's Irish Times which in an article on examinership itself, conveniently had this to say:
"Among the most successful outcomes from an examinership process is the case of football club Shamrock Rovers. When it entered examinership in 2005 the club had debts of €2m and had been relegated to the second division. Taken out of examinership by a group of several hundred supporters, it was remodelled as a member-run club and has enjoyed success both on and off the field since. It moved to the new purpose-built Tallaght Stadium in 2009 and won the Premier Division title last year."
Hope this helps:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/welshingQuote:
Definition of WELSH
intransitive verb
1
sometimes offensive : to avoid payment —used with on
2
sometimes offensive : to break one's word : renege
— welsh·er noun, sometimes offensive
just to further show how successful this process was, Shamrock Rovers paid approximately €80,000 of the total debt of €2m. Great success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
http://www.411mania.com/siteimages/b...five_40034.jpg
Yes. Again, the process is called examinership and is open to every business to consider, and was done with the agreement of the creditors. It is a great success as without examinership creditors would receive nothing instead of their 80,000 in this example, and then there is the numerous businesses that make money from the company in the future being kept on as a going concern as opposed to being wound up.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Also, it happened six or so years ago now for what it's worth, you'd have thought your disappointment that Rovers weren't put out of business would have eased somewhat.
I never wanted Rovers out of business Jicked. I value our rivalry too much. This doesnt mean i don't like to raise the 4% thing every once in a while. :)
It is also worth noting that the process called 'examinership' is almost exclusive to Ireland, and it is commonly known in most other countries as (going into) 'receivership'
80k was some result I can tell you.
While we have moved off topic slightly i have a question.Bohemian F.C itself is a limited company.What Company runs SRFC now and is it the same company that shafted the creditors under maguire and co or was a new company formed in 2005 post examinership.Genuine question.Any rovers fans clued in/brave enough to answer.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashbournebohs
Same company. The whole point of examinership is that the company continues trading.
While we're on the subject, not many people seem to realise that going down the examinership road actually ended up costing us more than going bust and starting from scratch like Derry and Cork have done since. The 400 club spent the guts of a million funding the club during examinership, the legal costs of the process and paying off the 4% of debt the courts agreed. We ended up getting relegated anyway and played in the first division in 2006. In hindsight the 400 club could have let the club fold in 2005, start up a new holding company and apply for a 1st division licence in 2006 with a substantial six figure sum still in the bank.
Fair play i have alot of respect for what your fans did to keep your club alive(together with a large slice of good fortune).That respect was eroded slightly by alot of your fans arrogance twards the clubs that put you up in their grounds despite protestations from fans and locals(money talks)and helped keep your show on the road.At the very least when you got things sorted a small thank you through the media towards ourselves shelbourne st pats ucd cork etc for the help and some gratious acceptance of that fact wouldnt have been a lot to ask for.Anyhoo it doesnt change much still hate ye!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by HulaHoop
They are two different processes, since the 1990 Companies Act we've had both receivership and examinership in IrelandQuote:
Originally Posted by oriel
I assume you're just taking 4% of €2m but I don't think that's correct. The 2.3ish million debt figure included Revenue debts (500-600k), of which a large amount (probably more than 50%) was written off, players' wages of which 2/3 were paid, then the remainder was made up of business creditors, bank loans and six-figure loans from directors. Business creditors were given 2pc, banks presumably 4pc and directors' loans were written off.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
As far as I know, the 400 club raised 600-700k and running costs during examinership plus the examiners' costs probably came to half that. That leaves 300k+ of debt paid, probably. No breakdown has been given to the best of my knowledge. I'm not basing this on insider knowledge that some other posters might have, just the figures I dug up a few months back from bits and pieces of newspaper reports.
It's not an awful lot better - and nobody is proud of business creditors not being paid - but it was a huge achievement for a club with no assets to raise that much cash and at least give something out.
I think it's administration in England?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
Yes, and when you hear of "chapter 11" in the US sense, it's referring to their equivalent of it. All basically deal with trying to get a struggling business back on its feet whatever way it can.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
By turning its creditors into struggling businesses too
Jicked, spare us the martrydom please ! nobody wants shams out of business - hell, some of us even missed you when you were in the Discover Ireland League. What grates with a lot is the arrogance and ignorance of some shams on here. Besides examinership shams got a geat deal of latitude (only Cork came close in terms of FAI fudge). To see shams on here pontificating about monies owed by Bohs to Brian Shelley was laughable bearing in mind the same player was stiffed at shams (and in your case the player did deliver all they were required to). Similarly running with complaints about other clubs is ironic given your history RE misuse of public money and Tippexgate. My own favourite was a sham posting "whatever part of Dalymount you still own" about Bohs, from a fan of a club that has owned nothing for nearly 30 years ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
Appreciate you have a lot of "new" :rolleyes: fans whose knowledge of history (even your own clubs) is very limited and hope that ignorance does not lead your club to repeat the same errors again. Running deficits (as they currently are) especially in the current economic climate and decreasing revenues and prize money is not what most would call good financial management.
.....Anyway can we get back to Nutsey's on/off marriage to Bohs ? Sorry to see him go as I do think he is the best manager in the LOI but if he cannot work under the current financial constraints at the club it is in everyones best interests that both sides move on as quickly as possible. So nutsey, thanks for the memories and best of luck.
I'm not bothered with the rest of your nonsense but I've seen you peddle this particular "fact" before so lets clear it up. Brian Shelley was only signed by Roddy after Rovers entered examinership halfway through the 2005 season and half of our squad left (around July I think). I think he was after being released by Carlisle at the end of the UK season and was disillusioned with football. I remember an interview with him in the programme that he only signed for us as a favour to Roddy. He was signed along with Tony Sheridan and Marc Kenny on an expenses only €50 a week contract. He was paid this every week by the 400 club and opted to leave at the end of the season and take the big money offered to him by Drogheda. Now those are the real facts but somehow you have got it into your head that he was a full time pro at Rovers in 2005 earning big money and we reneged on his wages - care to explain?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
100% true, Brian Shelley was never owed money by rovers. But that doesn't fit in with Marinos blinkered version of the past, so don't expect a retraction.
While not wishing to pick on Marino, Shelleyer was paid a pittance by Rovers and was, like 2 of the other players mentioned, doing it for boot money and as a favour to the then manager. If it was just from one source I'd have my doubts, though I've heard it from people involved including one of Marc's brothers (at ex-Ashtownvilla).
No matter what the case may be, I believe Pat Fenlon is a decent coach, a good tactician and I've seen him doing his own scouting at underage or junior matches (okay, it's all part of the life) but he is committed. Anyone who was around Shels in 2004 would know this only too well. I hope he goes abroad and coaches, though not as some sort of scout, that's a joke. He might as well get a pipe and slippers.
Ok so let me get this straight you signed 3 players on expenses when another was fighting for his wages?Quote:
Originally Posted by HulaHoop
Unreal to be honest.
Taken from http://foot.ie/threads/24039-Shamroc...-Thread/page10 Post 183*
Quote:
PFAI want probe into Kelly wage hitch
PFAI want probe into Kelly wage hitch
Thursday April 28th 2005
THE PFAI has asked the Eircom League to investigate Shamrock Rovers' decision to stop paying one of their players because he is injured.
Striker Liam Kelly, who has undergone two groin operations, was told in January by his doctor that he needs six months rest to clear up his troublesome pubic bone injury before he can resume playing.
Rovers' response was to stop paying the player in January and he has only been fully paid three times over the past 17 weeks. One cheque, which he received for outstanding wages, before Rovers went into examinership, bounced.
Although the other Rovers players have been paid since the examinership process began, Kelly has not.
The matter was brought to the attention of Neil Hughes, the examiner appointed to run the club by the High Court, yesterday by the PFAI.
But the examiner told the players union that Kelly was not a priority because he couldn't play and is now considered to be a creditor of the club.
The Irish Independent understands that no medical evidence was sought before the examiner arrived at this decision.
PFAI Chief Executive Fran Gavin said he had asked the Eircom League to investigate because the examiner's decision sets a dangerous precedent. "What happens if another player gets injured this Friday against Cork or in a subsequent game? Will that affect him getting paid in the future?" he asked.
"Liam Kelly is not a creditor but an employee. He is under contract until the end of the season and, while we appreciate the difficulties the examiner is operating under, we have asked the League to investigate."
Legal sources indicated last night that the examiner would have to apply to the High Court if he wanted to remove Kelly from the payroll. Liam Kelly declined to comment last night while the examiner was unavailable for comment.
Manager Roddy Collins had earlier talked of his relief that the 400 Club had agreed to bankroll the payment of wages to players.
Collins admits that since the start of the season he's been on a permanent pub crawl as he toured Dublin hostelries trying to get players' cheques cashed.
As a player and a manager he has found himself in some sticky financial situations in the past but admits that what he has been through at Rovers is by far the worst.
"The only thing I can compare it to is when I employed fellows on a building site in the days when there was no money in the building trade.
"You would be due a cheque of six grand at two o'clock on a Friday to pay the lads with the banks shutting at three and the builder wouldn't turn up. You'd have to scramble round borrowing money to make up the wages which thankfully I always did," said Collins.
"The stress of being responsible for players' well-being and their financial situation is horrendous. It is the worst stress in the world."
With a massive crowd expected tomorrow night at Dalymount Park for the visit of Cork City, Rovers fans are rallying around the club in its hour of need and Collins is aware that he and his players also have to do their stuff on the pitch to keep the ball rolling.
Gerry McDermott
Why is it that every single bohs / Rovers thread goes back to the same ole S****.
Can we have a single thread just for them to argue the same point over and over and then have all other threads strictly on topic.
Christ it was old in 2008 never mind now....
Show where I said he was a "full time pro at Rovers earning big money" ? he was earning 50 quid a week which shams ceased paying during the season (according to him, gave it as a reason he would not go back to shams when offer was there). Of course I will take your "facts" over the player himself because we know how honest shams were at the time over finances.Quote:
Originally Posted by HulaHoop
Delighted you at least agree with the rest of my post :cool:
Quote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
I presume you can link us to an article where Shelley says we stopped paying him his 50 quid a week?????????? Or are bohs fans on here just allowed make up stories now.
Collins admits that since the start of the season he's been on a permanent pub crawl as he toured Dublin hostelries trying to get players' cheques cashed.
Gotta love this, I'm sure Mons fans are resting a little easier tonight :-)
I agree. This thread was supposed to be about Fenlon but once again it has gone down the road of point scoring.Quote:
Originally Posted by tippex
Meanwhile on another thread that was supposed to discuss "trouble outside stadiums" ( No laughing down the back please ), we have an ongoing tussle to determine which of Bohs or Shams have the marginally less horrible contingent of scumbags following them.
No link (never mentioned an article). It was a personal quote from shelly when he was here. Anyway even if there was such an article shams would simply say it was doctored. No doubt you can link us to an article where he confirmed he was fully paid up ?Quote:
Originally Posted by sundance kid
Perhaps the money you owed him was tippexed out of your accounts. Been known to happen
Still waiting to see where I said he was "full time pro at Rovers earning big money" (Given your concern about people making things up perhaps you could clarify this with Hulahoop)
[QUOTE=marinobohs;1471468]No link (never mentioned an article). It was a personal quote from shelly when he was here. Anyway even if there was such an article shams would simply say it was doctored. No doubt you can link us to an article where he confirmed he was fully paid up ?
Perhaps the money you owed him was tippexed out of your accounts. Been known to happenQUOTE]
So basically you've no proof, you've made an allegation you can't back up, and you're trying back out with more "smart" comments about something else you know nothing about.
Is there not a rule around here that allegations like this have to be backed up, or else removed/retracted?????
Wind it up lads for **** sakes.
It's handy to have one thread to contain the usual Rovers/Bohs or Rovers/Rovers bitch-fests, but yeah, this one's run its course. Locked.