And what about the many players over the years that have truned out for Ireland that were "undeniably born and bred" in England????Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
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And what about the many players over the years that have truned out for Ireland that were "undeniably born and bred" in England????Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Each case on its individual merits. This one doesnt stand up.Quote:
Originally Posted by abbeyvale
Whats the story with the multiple ??????? in your posts? You seem fond of it.
Do ye honestly think GT cares about what the Irish think and that he only wants to pick players that have come up through the Irish underage set up?
At the end of the day GT is a money grabber and if he can get a player that qualifies for Ireland that he thinks is good enough for the squad (regardless of where he was born) he will pick him....end of.
There are many "Irish" players that were born or were eligible to play for England (or another country) over the years that would have chosen England over Ireland if they had been asked...............but as the call didn't come, they went on to choose Ireland..................Fact.
ah ya got in before meQuote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
And a proud moment for Irish soccer that would be. Really one to trumpet about.Quote:
Originally Posted by abbeyvale
Dear God.
Our prisons are already at breaking point, we have no room left, sorry not this time Jermaine.
I don't think Trapattoni would have much time for a guy like this. He claims he's a reformed man since the birth of his child last year though...Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Stephen Carr and Steven Reid are retired from international football, so not really a case of them being dismissed surely. Fair enough regarding the others, in Trapattoni's mind anyway. Many fans wouldn't dismiss them, however, as potential options at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
Of course, I'm against this chancer pulling on the green jersey. He is the epitome of everything you don't want in an international player. In saying that however - as mentioned above - Clinton Morrisson, whose situation was not dissimilar, did become a mainstay in our side for nearly two campaigns IIRC and something of cult hero. Maybe the latter was because he was such a likeable chap! Also remember Paul Butler?! Now that was a laugh!
Morrison's situation was very very different to Pennant's.
Morrison declared at 22/23 and at the height of his scoring exploits in fairness.
Should Trap entertain Pennant's case, hopefully he'll take his (many) disciplinary indiscretions into account and that'l at least contribute to the sinking of this possibility. Another factor being this guy's ability in comparison to what we already have.
It was similar in that he waited for an England call up until was certain his best prospects lay with Ireland. I recall Paul Howard writing about how McCarthy apparently lost it with him when he left Mick waiting an hour before a meeting regarding a possible Ireland call-up. Mick's reaction was 'Would you keep Sven Goran Eriksson waiting for an hour?', an attitude which as far as he was concerned, spoke volumes, it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Don't get me wrong, I was a big fan of Clint when he played for us. Definately put his heart and soul into it and on several occassions publically refered to Ireland as 'my country'. :cool:
how is he illiterate? he has to sign his name on the contract,unless his agent reads it to him. you dont have to be smart to play football. he must be able to write his name or at least count to 10!!!!! this really bothers me that another mercenary want to opt for eire. we are england b team!!!!!!!!!!
For me, if Pennant was 18-21, I would probably turn the other cheek & give the fella the benefit of the doubt. "Ok, perhaps he has an stronger affinity to Ireland, not unlike a McGeady, McCarthy or Kilbane. Maybe his grandmother was more of a maternal figure than his parents, who knows". I'd wish him well and hope he grows into the role. He's young enough that to stake a claim like that he's probably making a bold statement either way
But Pennant's 28 and, let's face it, a Premiership washout. His career has not exactly taken off & knows England will never come beckoning. Ireland to him is just a convenient club that will let him get a little piece of International football. This is a cynical, mercenary manoeuvre & and it doesn't matter how good he is, we should have a little more self-respect than this.
Doubly so when we're blatantly ignoring genuine Irish midfield prospects.
It's clear Pennant doesn't feel Irish and never met his grandad by the sounds of things. "My mum told me my grandad was Irish".
The "granny rule" is great for genuine cases like McGeady, McCarthy etc but not only would a Pennant appearance cheapen the green shirt, it wouldn't offer us anything better than what we've already got.
Plenty of "non-genuine" cases are national hero's. I'm pretty sure Houghton said on that RTE programme (The green and red?) a few years ago that he still looks for Scotlands results first, after 70 odd bloody caps!Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
In fairness you can hardly blame him over the fact that he never met his grandfather.Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
True, but surely equally when he is looking to that man as his angle for declaring for us, he should have been a big influence on the guy, and given him his sense of the Irishness we look for in eligibility cases like this. And with good reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
He should at least have mentioned this at some stage before the age of 28 if it were of anything other than tactical last chance saloon material to Pennant.
That 'Green and Red' rte programme from 10 years ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Ray wouldn't have to look for the Irish result as he would already know how Ireland fared.
Anyway it's natural that he would look for Scotland's results.
He never made any secret out of, or tried to revise, how much he had wanted to play for Scotland before declaring for Ireland by invitation. He is a proud dual national and very much at ease with both aspects.
I haven't heard your perception, of what Ray said or meant, corroborated by anybody and not by Ray himself in all the years listening to him.
That's fair enough, but the point is would that be enough to pass this new Stutts gut test, if it had been applicable at the time? I'm not trying to make it about individual past players - it's just the same standard isn't being applied to Pennant imo now he says he's interested in representing "the republic".Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Have you seen that utube vid of him dressed as a lepracaun taking the pish on an English tv show -cringeworthy stuff, no Irish person wud ever dare to that on TV - oh wait - Foster and Allen:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Macy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP2HR...D1444E93957A2A
My feeling on this are.
1) He is hardly setting the world on fire although he a decent play, I can't really say I have paid much attention to him in the past
So I will have to keep an eye on him next time he play.
2) There is the point of "is he Irish enough", well technically he is, and that is all that is required.
3) Does he want to play for Ireland? Well apparently he does!! Which is nice to hear!!
I think this is a big plus point for him, even if he only want to to further his own career.
What I would say is contrast him with Stephen Ireland and he looks very good in that respect.
Finally I would say he would struggle to get a place in the team because we have too many other options.
He went to Stoke for £1.7 million, we have a number of players in his position who are worth more than that.
I hope the people who are saying he should not play are not the same people who have said they
they would gladly take Stephen Ireland back because if they are they are being a bit hypocritical IMO.
There is no comparison with Ray or Owen Coyle for that matter, both of them grew up in 'little Donegal' in the Gorbals. There was no dilemma for either of them, it was a natural decision to declare for Ireland. Being Irish was already a part of their upbringing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
There is something about Jermaine that does not resonate with the Irish fans. There is no science to that, so perhaps Stutts' gut test has some rational validity.
Apart from ability, very few question Paul Green about his motives or connections. Fans can accept a player at honest face value.
It's not appreciated when a player dallies for a long time or discusses publicly about whether to declare or not. That alone demeans the honour.
And Owen Coyle's mother is from Donegal and still goes to the games, so no comparison witha buck like Pennant.
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Yep - for a long time it was simply announced that "x" player had declared for us. Players tended to make their decision quickly and it was then reported by the media.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
All of this "weighing up of options" approach most certainly demeans the honour and is a bit of an insult.
They both would've played for Scotland, if they'd been called up first, and both knew it wasn't going to happen by the time they were asked by Ireland. That fails my gut test tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Not a Pennant advocate but that might be slightly related to oversaturated contemporary sports coverage. I'm not convinced the likes of Aldridge, Townsend et al made their decision quickly, there likely was indecision, but it went unreported because they wern't asked about declaring ten times a day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie
Crucial difference between them and Pennant is they had the good sense to keep schtum while he hmm's and haa's in public.
I think you need to do a bit more research Macy. While Coyle wasn't capped until 1994 it wasn't the case that he jumped on the bandwagon as he got older (and with the World Cup around the corner). Coyle had declared for us several years before and came on as sub in the famous 4-1 B-International win over England in 1990 (when he was still with Clydebank). I think he got U-21 caps as well. This was definitely not a case of a 27 year old playing with Bolton who suddenly saw a short-term opportunity to get to a world cup (Bernie Slaven might have been a more convincing example!). Both of Coyle's parents are from Donegal and he was brought up in a very Irish household (Finn Harps are his LoI team if you need any convincing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Well, your gut test does meet objective standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
It is public knowledge that Owen selected Ireland over Scotland. He had 2 invitations on his kitchen table inviting him to join the respective u21 squads of both Ireland and Scotland. Owen has said that it was a no brainer for him to chose Ireland and in the knowledge that the squad he was being called up into was for a game against Scotland. He received his first cap against Scotland. He is also a proud Scot.
Ray had not been selected by Scotland and he has publicly admitted he wanted to play for Scotland. That's undisputed. Ray was an uncapped dual national by the time Charlton invited him to declare and this he did so without the slightest hesitation, even though he was still young for a midfielder (age 24), just in his 1st season in the 1st Div and still had a good chance that he would eventually come under serious scrutiny for a Scottish intl call up.
That survives my gut test.
Just to add that Ray was rejected by Scotland for their underage team.
It is presumptuous to think that Ray would not have accepted an invitation to declare for Ireland when he was 17 years old or at any time up to the age when he did declare.
James McCarthy has said more or less that Ireland called him, Scotland didn't.
Read into that what you may, but I suspect that James was fed up with the constant barrage of questions and negativity around his decision to declare for Ireland, that he repeats the line 'Scotland didn't call me'. Even to this day, Ray gets questioned by Scots about his decision to declare for Ireland over Scotland, the simple retort is 'Scotland didn't call me', 'Scotland ignored me'.
Owen Coyle is also still questioned about his 'Scottishness' and he answers that he is a proud Scot. He doesn't mention that he still turns out for ireland to play with the "seniors". Yet there are people who cynically pick over every little line uttered and say that Owen is conveniently playing the Scotland card.
It should be a bit obvious that Scotland is different, that forms of social bigotry are well entrenched and that some footballers chose to present a diplomatic front and wish to deflect some of the begrudgery. McGeady on the other hand, took the barrage of bigotry full on.
where is 'Aye-land'.???
I cannot agree with anyone that suggests that he would not get a place in our team. While I am not at all suggesting that he would be one of our first choice widemen, we do have an injury prone lot, and it seems rare when we have Hunt, McGeady and Duff fit all at the same time.
In my opinion I think he is probably a better footballer than Liam Lawrence, while his attitude and actions in the past disgust most of us, he is a good right-sided player who hugs the touchline and puts in good balls, and is more responsible on the back-foot than you'd expect.
Having said all that, he doesn't really pass my 'gut' test either; I would accept him if called up to the squad and he turned up and played, but I would prefer if that did not happen.
I think he's a decent player actually, pacy and a traditional winger. He'sa wrong 'un though, a real trouble maker so I've never warmed to him.
That has nothing to do with my gut instinct on this one though. This one just doesn't feel right. It's hard to articulate.
put it this way, I'd rank Pennant getting a call up as slightly more acceptable than if Joey Barton suddenly discovered an Irish grandparent. Talent and ability aside, I just don't like him.
Was very good today for Stoke. Interesting to read some comments from the Stoke fans about him :
''was superb again''
''Very lively in the first half and early second half. He's consistantly good''
''was superb, we looked lost when he went off''
''Constant threat and some very good crossing, he's got to score at some point''
''We look great with him & **** without him''
http://oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/...&thread=153676
..and seems to be the fans MOM today with Walters.
http://www.stokecity-mad.co.uk/interactive/loadpoll.asp
Whelan getting really good reviews too from the sound of it. Would be handy to have him play a few games in the run-up to Macedonia.
Lads i cant understand why some of ye have the hump about pennant playing for us. ok maybe we are his second choice but im sure this was the case with alot of the english born lads. its not like we are blessed with players falling on our door step. in my view take what we can get you never know when we might need him.
That's very pessimistic. Can our future be so bleak?
i wouldnt agree its realistic a fella with plenty of expierence doesnt fall out of the sky every day.
definite starter if trapatoni would let him play that is,he could form a midfield with andy reid maybe. :P he would supply serious threat to fullbacks