General promotion/media discussion (split from the attendances thread)

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I honestly believe there is a general snobbery amongst the Irish press towards the LOI and the coverage our league gets reflects this.[/QUOTE]
Very true. What's so frustrating is that it wasn't always this way. Once upon a time columnists like Con Houlihan would write as much about the league as he did about the national side. Newspapers would give as much (if not more) space to domestic football as the English game. The League was part of the general mozaic of Irish sport - like horse racing; the GAA etc. The LOI has been completely squeezed out over the last fifteen years or so. It's such a shame. People now only want things that are glossy and glitzy. Maybe something to do with the overall dumbing down of newspapers (and, I suppose, society in general)????

I'd push community connections as well. LoI clubs should have an U16 team, Youth team (U18 but goal-keeper and 3 outfield players can be U19) and a reserve side. The FAI should try to get more counties represented in the A Championship. In Pool 2 for example, get a Clare and Tipperary side involved. They might have to relax the rules a bit for it but keep the regulations as they are for joining the LoI Division One.

also... What the LoI needs is box office news. That will come from regular good progression in Europe to at least the play-offs stages and not just one hit wonders.

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Originally Posted by Straightstory

Very true. What's so frustrating is that it wasn't always this way. Once upon a time columnists like Con Houlihan would write as much about the league as he did about the national side. Newspapers would give as much (if not more) space to domestic football as the English game. The League was part of the general mozaic of Irish sport - like horse racing; the GAA etc. The LOI has been completely squeezed out over the last fifteen years or so. It's such a shame. People now only want things that are glossy and glitzy. Maybe something to do with the overall dumbing down of newspapers (and, I suppose, society in general)????

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The coverage was only a little better 25yrs ago from memory, so it's been a while since the LOI had anywhere near balanced coverage with overseas football.

dcfcsteve, It was marginally better than now back then (there were better crowds from my own memory), but you had more paper coverage, plus the national radio was better at covering it, not to mention Sports Stadium on a Saturday. When they did away with it (Sports Stadium) suddenly there was a severe drop off in sports coverage - cycling, athletics, boxing, LOI football and even live games from the pre-sky league, GAA NL and horse racing. Suddenly it all went satellite and exposure was lost. If only they would put on a show like that again, though on a Sunday, maybe it might just work, but it took a few brain cells to follow it at times.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

dcfcsteve, It was marginally better than now back then (there were better crowds from my own memory), but you had more paper coverage, plus the national radio was better at covering it, not to mention Sports Stadium on a Saturday. When they did away with it (Sports Stadium) suddenly there was a severe drop off in sports coverage - cycling, athletics, boxing, LOI football and even live games from the pre-sky league, GAA NL and horse racing. Suddenly it all went satellite and exposure was lost. If only they would put on a show like that again, though on a Sunday, maybe it might just work, but it took a few brain cells to follow it at times.

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I'd be fairly confident the League has better exposure now on TV anyway. Sports Stadium gave a bit of coverage most weeks, but in comparison to MNS and the raft of live games we have now there is no comparison to then and now on TV.

I'm also pretty sure crowds then were no better than now, and from memory they were actually a bit worse. They were certainly more erratic - e.g. Dundalk or Sligo could magic up 4-5,000 fans every so often without a cup final, City took thousands around the country etc, but a lot of clubs had less support then than now (incl pretty much every Dublin club plus the likes of Longford, Harps and Drogheda).

The league has never been helped by having been such a closed circle. Some see it as GAA thinking but pride in a county is an Irish thing. Rugby has tapped into Provincial pride, association football hasn't really tapped into anything.

There was a daycent LOI ad on at half time at the Ireland match tonight, just goals.

LOI does tap into a sense of place outside of Dublin - in Derry, Cork, Sligo, Dundalk, Longford, Drogheda etc. Not always, but those areas have shown the ability to generate significant crowds to support their teams on big days out.

It's a different issue within Dublin, where teams don't seem to embody their local areas as much as they do in other big cities elsewhere. Ironically, I've always thought that Pats probably had the best local identity of the Big 4 in Dublin, but Rovers seem to be making the best fist of this recently.

GAA is also fortunate not to have any competitors within its own sport, and the rugby provinces largely drove the current surge in popularity of the game in Ireland rather than merely being beneficiaries. The LOI has neither of those things going for it - we have foreign competitiors who are richer, more glamorous, more successful and better covered than us, and football's popularity in Ireland is largely the result of a combination of Jack Charlton-era Ireland and foreign clubs.

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Originally Posted by fionnsci

There was a daycent LOI ad on at half time at the Ireland match tonight, just goals.

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As an aside - were ordinary adult tickets really €40-50 for tonight's game....?

The LoI can never compete with the Premier League anyway, nor can NI, Wales and Scotland.
If the LoI was at Championship/top half League One level in terms of quality and support it'd be good considering the size of the country.
There's is no real progression to the League of Ireland from a youth level. Just to go back on what I said before, all LoI clubs should have an U16 and a Youth team (U18 or U19). Youth level is the place to start to get a connection within communities.

I think, Legendz, what you mention was mentioned before on another thread - about having league underage sides playing within a general LOI structure, however then it boils down to finances.

Dcfcsteve I do remember that Sports Stadium gave more general coverage of the league, highlights of games and rundowns on results - it gave more time to the First Division than MNS for sure. However there would be more live games on now than back when, though radio coverage of games was far better then - lots of live updates etc on the weekend.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Just to go back on what I said before, all LoI clubs should have an U16 and a Youth team (U18 or U19). Youth level is the place to start to get a connection within communities.

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This is great in theory and I fully agree with you.

BUT......

The Junior Clubs would go cuckoo bananas

Think the Youths tried to get a U16 team together but the Wexford schoolboys league wouldn't let them enter the league. They have an U18 team in the Youth leagues tho, win the Premier Division every year

There are 22 LoI clubs, as part of their league licence, they should have to field an U16 and Youth team. Have two sections, North and South of 11 clubs each at each level U16 and Youth. Financial wise or not it is the way to progression. Without this the league will never get far.

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Originally Posted by legendz

The LoI can never compete with the Premier League anyway, nor can NI, Wales and Scotland.
If the LoI was at Championship/top half League One level in terms of quality and support it'd be good considering the size of the country.
There's is no real progression to the League of Ireland from a youth level. Just to go back on what I said before, all LoI clubs should have an U16 and a Youth team (U18 or U19). Youth level is the place to start to get a connection within communities.

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Using Scotland is your above example is madness.People in Scotland support Scottish teams.Not always their local team as Celtic and Rangers obviously enjoy sopport from all over the country but they dont compete with the EPL in the same way we or the north do.
Just pick up any Scottish tabloid paper and the back pages are filled with local football.Also,if you watch MOTD in Scotland its the SPL shown not EPL.This is not to say that the EPL isnt watched or read about in Scotland,just not in the same way it is on this island.
Even the Welsh comparison isnt correct because while their is a large number of Welsh that support EPL clubs they travel from ie Wrexham to see Liverpool,Everton etc-These people arn't guilty of being barstoolers, its more that they are "guilty" of not supporting local teams.

Local football in Scotland is the template that we should hope to achieve.ie That people support LOI teams first and EPL second but we are a long way from that goal!

The point I was trying to make is that Championship and League One sides are well supported and seem to accept their level. Be great if people got behind their local LoI clubs first and accepted it at the level which it is at but still being great games to go to and watch.

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Originally Posted by cornflakes

Think the Youths tried to get a U16 team together but the Wexford schoolboys league wouldn't let them enter the league. They have an U18 team in the Youth leagues tho, win the Premier Division every year

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It's an under 17 youths team that plays in the Wexford under 18 league for the last couple of seasons. It seems a fair enough compromise.

I'd agree that there should be some sort of national competiton down to under 16 level for the league of Ireland clubs, it might mean directing a few first team players wages to the underage set up, but long term it should benefit the league hugely. It would also reduce the conflict with the local leagues (in an ideal world).

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Originally Posted by legendz

The point I was trying to make is that Championship and League One sides are well supported and seem to accept their level. Be great if people got behind their local LoI clubs first and accepted it at the level which it is at but still being great games to go to and watch.

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I agree with this point but as i said I dont regard the Scots/Welsh comparison being valid.In fact the only comparison to be made with your average Irish football fan imo would be with fans in the far east who if they are lucky will get to mecca once or twice in their life.
Take another EPL loving nation such as Norway who compared to us have a reasonably healthy domestic league despite a few plane loads leaving for John Lennon airport every second saturday.
We in a footballing sense( and also among other fascets of life) are little west britain.
LOI fans are the resistence!!!

In an ideal world yes. With the current system, the LoI comes out of nowhere without grass-roots. U16 up is the way to go!

A Shamrock Rovers fanatic friend of mine told me that we are more English than the English themselves, and I can't help but agree when the Irish media not alone apes the motherland, but also follows it's lead in so many ways. It's bad enough that our civil service is a poor imitation of the British one, and the way we deal with our policy changes ditto (from immigration to financial), we as a nation are never going to be mature enough to just get on with being independent and having pride in what's our own, it's the mindset of a heavily colonised and completely destroyed society that exists today, completely dependent and beholden on those above us, whether they be British or Irish.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

A Shamrock Rovers fanatic friend of mine told me that we are more English than the English themselves, and I can't help but agree when the Irish media not alone apes the motherland, but also follows it's lead in so many ways. It's bad enough that our civil service is a poor imitation of the British one, and the way we deal with our policy changes ditto (from immigration to financial), we as a nation are never going to be mature enough to just get on with being independent and having pride in what's our own, it's the mindset of a heavily colonised and completely destroyed society that exists today, completely dependent and beholden on those above us, whether they be British or Irish.

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Being so close geographically to Britain and using the same language, we are always going to be in their proverbial tracter beam to be honest. It's more about relative size and language than colonialism - it's the same with other obvious places like Austria-Germany, Canada-US, Luxembourg-France, New Zeland-Australia etc, none of which had a colonial relationship (Austria 'agreed' to join Germany briefly in the last century).

Legally and in policy terms Ireland is slowly but surely diverging from Britain. We have an elected head of state, different tax rates, a different voting system, and Ireland has lead the way for other countries recently on policy issues like plastic bags tax and smoking ban. Also - Ireland moved very quickly on tackling its financial mess once it all came out of the wash - much faster than anywhere else (and rightly so).

Football and media are two big areas where Ireland does lean far too heavily upon Britain though, to the point of disgrace when it comes to football. But to say that Irel;and is just a nation of post-colonial lackeys who can't think for themselves is just too simplistic. Geography and language makes it inevitable, colonial relationship are not (again ref Canada-Us and NZ-Australia).

The league needs to look after itself first and get it's structures right. I don't think that is being done.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Being so close geographically to Britain and using the same language, we are always going to be in their proverbial tracter beam to be honest. It's more about relative size and language than colonialism - it's the same with other obvious places like Austria-Germany, Canada-US, Luxembourg-France, New Zeland-Australia etc, none of which had a colonial relationship (Austria 'agreed' to join Germany briefly in the last century).

Legally and in policy terms Ireland is slowly but surely diverging from Britain. We have an elected head of state, different tax rates, a different voting system, and Ireland has lead the way for other countries recently on policy issues like plastic bags tax and smoking ban. Also - Ireland moved very quickly on tackling its financial mess once it all came out of the wash - much faster than anywhere else (and rightly so).

Football and media are two big areas where Ireland does lean far too heavily upon Britain though, to the point of disgrace when it comes to football. But to say that Irel;and is just a nation of post-colonial lackeys who can't think for themselves is just too simplistic. Geography and language makes it inevitable, colonial relationship are not (again ref Canada-Us and NZ-Australia).

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What???
They may have tackled it quickly but hardly properly Steve. 20 odd billion being pumped into Anglo is hardly tackling the problem. It would cost around 4 million to build another cystic fibrosis unit. Enough said.
Sorry for going off topic.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Being so close geographically to Britain and using the same language, we are always going to be in their proverbial tracter beam to be honest. It's more about relative size and language than colonialism - it's the same with other obvious places like Austria-Germany, Canada-US, Luxembourg-France, New Zeland-Australia etc, none of which had a colonial relationship (Austria 'agreed' to join Germany briefly in the last century).

Legally and in policy terms Ireland is slowly but surely diverging from Britain. We have an elected head of state, different tax rates, a different voting system, and Ireland has lead the way for other countries recently on policy issues like plastic bags tax and smoking ban. Also - Ireland moved very quickly on tackling its financial mess once it all came out of the wash - much faster than anywhere else (and rightly so).

Football and media are two big areas where Ireland does lean far too heavily upon Britain though, to the point of disgrace when it comes to football. But to say that Irel;and is just a nation of post-colonial lackeys who can't think for themselves is just too simplistic. Geography and language makes it inevitable, colonial relationship are not (again ref Canada-Us and NZ-Australia).

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Point taken, I was being too simplistic there and really drawing on the dependence we have on our neighbours for guidance. Of course we'll always be overshadowed by events there (football I should say clearly) and the difficulty will be creating a viable product to be marketed in Ireland. However it won't happen with the clowns at the helm (I'd like to solely blame the FAI but we know up and down the country clubs and football people are just as guilty). There still is a colonial hangover and I feel that the greatest problem is that we were a very different type of colony - not just were our raw materials taken and finished products sold back to us, not to mention someone elses laws rubbing out our own, we were systematically displaced, disenfranchised and downtrodden, which means we're kind of messed up :-)

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It's more about relative size and language than colonialism - it's the same with other obvious places like Austria-Germany, Canada-US

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Canada is a lot bigger than the US, and has never been colonised by them, a large portion of the population doesnt even share a language with them

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Originally Posted by dong

What???
They may have tackled it quickly but hardly properly Steve. 20 odd billion being pumped into Anglo is hardly tackling the problem. It would cost around 4 million to build another cystic fibrosis unit. Enough said.
Sorry for going off topic.

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Enough said indeed, though interested readers can find more information in dong's paper:
I. M. Dong, "Cystic Fibrosis Units as Drivers of Economic Recovery: Enough Said", Quarterly Journal of Economics, 135(3), Aug 2010.

This thread is going way off topic on how the league can develop! Lets get every county represented at some level in the LoI and sort out the youth structures.

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Originally Posted by dong

What???
They may have tackled it quickly but hardly properly Steve. 20 odd billion being pumped into Anglo is hardly tackling the problem. It would cost around 4 million to build another cystic fibrosis unit. Enough said.
Sorry for going off topic.

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I wasn't passing judgement on what the Irish government did - just saying that they acted quicker than pretty much anywhere else in tackling their economic problems. Things would be even worse if they hadn't.

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Originally Posted by punkrocket

Canada is a lot bigger than the US, and has never been colonised by them, a large portion of the population doesnt even share a language with them

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The physical size of Canada's landmass is irrelvant, and I stated that it hadn't been colonised by the US. Most of Canada's landmass is empty, and they have a population of only one-tenth of that of the US. Plus only 20% of Canadians use French in their everyday lives, whilst 80% of all Canuks live within 100miles of the US border. Unsurprising therefore that their culture is heavily influenced by their much more populous neighbour.

Spend a bit of time in Canadia and you'll see how heavily influenced it is by the US.

Though I digress.... :D

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Originally Posted by Model Club

Local football in Scotland is the template that we should hope to achieve.ie That people support LOI teams first and EPL second but we are a long way from that goal!

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Bizarrely the Scots don't really support English teams full-stop. It's either their local side or, increasingly, one or other of the Old Firm.

It's hard to know how we got ourselves into such a crazy situation where we do the opposite.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

As an aside - were ordinary adult tickets really €40-50 for tonight's game....?

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€50 minimum i think.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Bizarrely the Scots don't really support English teams full-stop. It's either their local side or, increasingly, one or other of the Old Firm.

It's hard to know how we got ourselves into such a crazy situation where we do the opposite.

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There aren't enough local derbies really and nor are there enough counties represented to get interest going in the game around the country.

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Originally Posted by legendz

There aren't enough local derbies really and nor are there enough counties represented to get interest going in the game around the country.

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I could name a few derbies if you feel that's the critical factor missing:

Cork v Waterford
Finn Harps v Derry
Sligo Rovers v Finn Harps
Sligo Rovers v Galway (possibly)
Bohs v Shamrock rovers
Shamrock Rovers v St. Pats
St. Pats v Bohs
Fingal v Bohs
Fingal v St Pats
Mervue v Salthill

I could have left some out. If anything there's too many. Don't see how the Fingal ones are derbies myself but they are mostly referred to as "Dublin Derbies" on MNS and in the media.
Also, I don't think having teams from every county is going to be an answer to the league's "woes".

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Bizarrely the Scots don't really support English teams full-stop. It's either their local side or, increasingly, one or other of the Old Firm.

It's hard to know how we got ourselves into such a crazy situation where we do the opposite.

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I know-It was more a case of wishful-hoping tinged with a realisation that the EPL is here to stay and my vision is the best we can hope for but will probably never happen:(

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Originally Posted by dong

I could name a few derbies if you feel that's the critical factor missing:

Cork v Waterford
Finn Harps v Derry
Sligo Rovers v Finn Harps
Sligo Rovers v Galway (possibly)
Bohs v Shamrock rovers
Shamrock Rovers v St. Pats
St. Pats v Bohs
Fingal v Bohs
Fingal v St Pats
Mervue v Salthill

I could have left some out. If anything there's too many. Don't see how the Fingal ones are derbies myself but they are mostly referred to as "Dublin Derbies" on MNS and in the media.
Also, I don't think having teams from every county is going to be an answer to the league's "woes".

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Good derbies they are too but I think there should be more, though obviously there'd have to be more clubs
Maybe not the answer to the league woes but the only way to promote the league more nationwide is to have more regions represented. Hopefully with the A Championship it will head that way.

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The physical size of Canada's landmass is irrelvant, and I stated that it hadn't been colonised by the US. Most of Canada's landmass is empty, and they have a population of only one-tenth of that of the US. Plus only 20% of Canadians use French in their everyday lives, whilst 80% of all Canuks live within 100miles of the US border. Unsurprising therefore that their culture is heavily influenced by their much more populous neighbour.

Spend a bit of time in Canadia and you'll see how heavily influenced it is by the US.

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It's still bigger.

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Originally Posted by punkrocket

It's still bigger.

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And your point is.....?

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Originally Posted by Model Club

I know-It was more a case of wishful-hoping tinged with a realisation that the EPL is here to stay and my vision is the best we can hope for but will probably never happen:(

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My prediction, the EPL will crash and burn in the next few years. Players wages are unsustainable, many of the clubs are carrying serious debt and sugar daddys aren't going to stay for ever while their clubs are heomoraging cash. In fairness to Shams, their attendances prove that there is a potential appetite for domestic football in Ireland.

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Originally Posted by bingoballs

My prediction, the EPL will crash and burn in the next few years. Players wages are unsustainable, many of the clubs are carrying serious debt and sugar daddys aren't going to stay for ever while their clubs are heomoraging cash. In fairness to Shams, their attendances prove that there is a potential appetite for domestic football in Ireland.

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There is a potential appetite too but league structures need to be right first. Not to go on but U16/Youth level up is the way to work on it.

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Originally Posted by legendz

There is a potential appetite too but league structures need to be right first. Not to go on but U16/Youth level up is the way to work on it.

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Totally agree Legendz, the success of the GAA is their connection to the grassroot levels of their community. If clubs were to be told that they would be given 5 years to have a percentage of home grown players in their first team it would enforce them to start thinking about developing and implomenting decent youth structures. It would also generate a greater sence of connection between the team and the community. The only problem is financing it.