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Hunt was sent off against the Czechs a few days later, not against Slovakia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
We should have won the game in Slovakia. We were 2-1 up in the dying minutes when we conceded one of our traditional sloppy goals.
That 2-2 draw knocked us out of Euro 2008 contention completely although we were the better team on the night. Doyle and Ireland got the goals (and we haven't seen SI since).
Doyle's goal that night was fantastic.
What he said. And as I said in the Armenia 'match thread', it won't be pretty.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
The way I look at it is whatever result Slovakia get in Russia we need to match. So for them to win there wouldnt be good in my opinion. A draw is by far the best result.
I think Slovakia are a better side now than the team we played twice under Stan. Arguably we were lucky to win the game at home, the away game was a last min concession but again a draw probably was the fair result.
Yeah, I remember Doyle's goal very well. Hit it with his left foot. Best goal I've ever seen an Irish player score, no joke.
We weren't knocked out on that result though, it was the Czech loss that did us in. Almost exactly three years ago.
Colbert you were formerly Vega007? Is that your alter ego? It almost sounds....David Bowie-ish.
Not that interesting, just lost my login info some years back
Hmmmm.....
Mathematically you are correct CR but when we conceded that last minute goal in Bratislava all of the Irish supporters there knew our chances of qualification were gone. On the interminable train journey from Bratislava to Prague none of the Irish fans thought we'd be able to beat the Czechs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
If we'd held on in Bratislava then a draw in Prague would have kept us in contention. The team tried hard that night in Prague (too hard in Hunt's case) but we never looked like scoring. The draw against the Slovakia killed all the hopes if not the mathematical possibilities.
Didn't Doyle hit the post in Prague, and the rebound just didn't fall for McShane who would have had an open goal?
I also recall Cech flapping at a corner late on - did we have a goal disallowed in that incident, or a McShane shot cleared off the line?
We played well enough in Prague. Their goal was very well taken. Nice one two and good finish by the Milan full back.
Although we scored twice in Slovakia and were ahead going into injury time, we were rubbish for a long part of the game. Their first equaliser when it came was ineveitable we had conceded so much possession. A pretty good case could have been made for a free out (Dunne) for their second though. The curse of George, and Stan's stupid smirk while making a last minute substitution contributed too. I honestly think that in the moment Stan showed himself to be the incompetent fool he was as Irish manager.
It was after the game in Prague where Dunphy came up with his famous "would you let him drive the train to Cork, Bill?" line.
Is there much point comparing Ireland under Stan to Ireland under Trap though?
Am starting to think the differences were a little less less than we might have thought....
5-2 in Cyprus versus 1-2 in Cyprus. 1 point versus 6.
Barely any difference there alright.
Still, I'd take Stan's 4 points from Slovakia I suppose. I think with Stan it was just so hit and miss. At least Trap is consistently hard to beat. We've become the Cliff Thorburn of international football.
That's just one opponent and the current nadir of Irish soccer though re. Cyprus.
Of course Trap is better, but his teams are becoming worse and worse to watch which is a shame.
would you prefer to play better and lose?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I can't agree with this. While Friday might not have been the best, our previous competitive game in Paris was probably the best Irish performance since the 2002 World Cup. We all know Trap will keep to his system but the team are capable of playing good football within that structure when the players are on song. Hopefully it will happen on Tuesday and against Russia next month.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
That's fair enough Stutts - I wasn't suggesting we were bad in Prague but the win we needed did look beyond us despite a good performance. We probably deserved a draw that night but Hunt was very foolish with the tackle that resulted in his red card. Had we held on to the lead in Bratislava a draw in Prague might have been enough to keep our hopes alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I thought Ireland deserved a win based on the performance in Slovakia but, as is our habit, the team dropped way too deep for the last 15/20 minutes and invited Slovakia to come at them. While the team still has a tendency to sit back in the final minutes I think Trap does have them better organised (but I was still biting my fingernails on Friday afternoon waiting for the whistle).
Fair enough to those replies. And take the point about some game in Paris.
But becoming cynical about the level of predictability we seem to have currently. Don't forget the former was nearly a year ago.
And Trap.doesn't seem to want to change his system, to be sometimes be more creative.
Which is why I despair. And yes if it means losing the odd game for the sake of being entertained generally, then so be it.
I think its well worth noting that the majority of the squad are able to raise their game like they did in Paris. Why they don't do this week in and out is beyond me. Whelan and Andrews were immense that night and if they played like that all the time they would make it in the best of PL teams. Granted their performance style was about breaking down more attacking minded midfielders, but it never hurts to have one like this in any midfield, Mascherano being a good example. Raise the game lads!!
Are you saying you want to lose?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
So if Trapattoni decides to play attacking football against, let's say Russia, and we go on to lose, you'll be happy with that?
In an ideal world we'd have a successful and entertaining team. It's not an ideal world. We've been sub-standard for 8 years now and I for one am happy to place priority on results. If it doesn't capture the imagination of the casually interested public that doesn't bother me one bit.
We played very entertaining football under Mick. His team selections were imaginative and you always felt he knew who all the available players were. He secured 3 play-off places, including one success. But even before Saipan half the country were calling him a fool and wanted him out - even when he had virtually nothing to work with. It just seems to me that nobody is happy - ever.
I'm not brushing under the carpet the question of whether a less dogmatic approach than Trap's may yield results, but marks for artistic merit aren't awarded by UEFA, only points earned for winning & drawing matches.
Er, No!Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Just that I would like to see more of a spectacle.
And draws are of limited use re.qualification.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
And all that.
Seeing 3 points is a spectacle :)
There is only one result and that is to qualify out of the group for the finals.
The qualification games are always a mixed bag.
By our standards of perfection, we played less than the perfect game in Armenia. The perfect away game against a team like Armenia is score 2, kill the game and don't let them back in, like we did in Estonia under Mick.
...without Roy Keane! I think we shipped a couple of chances in Estonia, but you're right, Estonia away was one of the least heart-attack inducing away games of the last decade.
We were a lot better in Tallinn than on Friday night....
And the point is we are drawing games than we could win.
A win & loss is usually better than 2 draws!
I thought we won on Friday.
Not necessarily. Losing games hits momentum and confidence, going unbeaten provides self-belief - and the performances tend to follow. We would never have put in that performance in Paris if we had of, say, lost to Bulgaria and Italy instead of drawing against them.
I think that the last campaign highlighted that the tactics worked, just that the execution was sloppy - missed chances and silly defending. Even the disappointing home draw with Bulgaria should have resulted in a win. McGeady (in particular) and Doyle missing great late chances, at 1-1.
There were definitely more points left on the table than were fortunately gained. It wasn't the tactics that dropped those points in my opinion, it was the execution.
On Trap's straightjacket, he wants to inject discipline in the team and the straightjacket is his method. He has to be consistent. Each game is approached the same way, even the friendlies. If he does not approach Andorra with this seriousness of preparation as the away game, how can one expect the team to? He applies the straightjacket out of necessity. Amongst many things before Trap, we did not have the discipline in our game to achieve consistency with performance and results.
There were signs that at least we looked less panicky after scoring against Armenia.
Hence the need for more creativity and at least an element of risk, in certain games. A win and a loss v.Bulgaria would have been better, similarly Montenegro. And possibly even Italy, though there I'd have taken two draws for the kudos at the time....Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
But if we had of lost to Bulgaria or Montenegro, would we have achieved those two Italian draws? I'm not convinced - I think losing games only leads to losing more games and dropping more points.
I see Russia/Slovakia is at 4 tomorrow, doesnt appear to be Setanta or Eurosport.
Next up - Tuesday 7th September 2010
Russia v Slovakia
Macedonia v Armenia
Ireland v Andorra
Agreed, any point gained against more difficult opposition gives confidence against higher ranked oppositionQuote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
I dont think losing games ever helps. There was a major confidence rush for the team last campaign in that we were undefeated the whole way through. The last time that happened was when, Euro 92 qualifiers?
My point is that the tactics worked but the execution was flawed. If we're liable to defensive errors and not being ruthless in fron of goal, playing more creatively may not be the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Our disciplined approach is just the foundation. There's nothing to say Trap doesn't also want some icing at the top, maybe it's just that haven't got it.
Still, one of Robbie's chances, a justified penalty being awarded, one of Whelan's or St. Ledger's chance added to Fahey's goal and we'd be talking about this game in the same way as we viewed Estonia in 2001. If we were more clinical it could have been a romp.
For such a cautious team we certainly create, albeit from unorthodox passages of play.
Georgia away - scored twice
Monty away - created some good chances and had a penno appeal turned down
Cyprus - despite the hairy finish we could have scored 3
Georgia home - stupid defending, created chances, scored twice
Bulgaria home - awful performance yet still created enough to win
Bulgaria away - started well & scored. Dumb error and after that we played for a draw which we got comfortably enough
Italy away - scored, drew saves from Buffon and should have snatched it in injury time
Cyprus - scored twice and - like Armenia - got a goal when we needed one, a good sign
Italy home - didn't play great, scored twice
Monty home - dead rubber, awful game
France twice - created enough chances to win (and conceded enough to lose). Conceded a deflection and an illegal goal.
Algeria - scored 3
Paraguay - scored 2
Argentina - outclassed
Armenia - created 3 or 4 great chances, took one
I think it's a case of fine tuning and stepping it up a level, rather than fundamental change that's required. If we play the same way but get more ruthless at each end everyone will be happy, even the purists.
2002...Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelmusic
And a point gained against the more difficult opposition, means they drop 2 points, increasing their pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
I know it sounds dumb but depriving your opponents of points counts too.
I suppose AB's point is that winning & losing against your rivals is better than drawing twice. You can't argue with the simple maths that 1.5 points per game is better than 1 point per game, but it's not that simple. Abandon our disclipline in favour of entertaining and we might be getting zero points per game.
I've always disagreeed with the win at home, draw away mantra. Home wins aren't a given these days, so away wins will make the difference. So far there's been no evidence that Trap has played for away draws, except maybe Bulgaria away after we had squandered our lead.
Either way, the 3 points from Friday are in the bag. Let's see if Russia and Slovakia can match it. So far we've left no points on the table that we should have collected. Let's take it game by game.
Brady stated on RTE on Friday that at no point did Trapattoni ever tell the players to hang back and defendQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Italy had the bulk of the fortune last time around in the away games, grabbing the winner in Montenegro was a bummer, that bizzarre game against Georgia, did they not have a slice of luck against Cyprus? and then against us.