Giovanni Trappatoni - Well Done

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scram

We should have won the group.

---

When was the last time we won a World Cup group? We haven't managed it from 1930 onwards, so it's not quite as simple as you make it out to be.

We had class, we coulda been a contender, we coulda been somebody.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Saying we should have won the group rather than could have won the group is a big statement. For a start, much was made of our luck but Italy got luck in spades throughout this campaign.

I'd tend towards arguing that his first job was to make us cohesive again, achieve confidence by being hard to beat and then build on that platform to ultimately produce the type of performance we did in Paris.

I'm not sure we'd have been capable of producing that performance a year ago.

It's where we go from here that will be the next test.

---

Absolutely agree. The team is in a much better place than when he took over. You can't take a performance at the end of a campaign and read back and say we should of won a group because of that performance. It takes time (especially for an international manager) to rebuild the confidence of a team that had taken a battering. Their confidence must have been at a low ebb.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colster

It takes time (especially for an international manager) to rebuild the confidence of a team that had taken a battering. Their confidence must have been at a low ebb.

---

So how much time is it going to take man? More or less than Slovenia?
Does our manager have enough time left for himself or will the excuse cycle start all over again when they are looking for someone else in 3 years?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crosby87

So how much time is it going to take man? More or less than Slovenia?
Does our manager have enough time left for himself or will the excuse cycle start all over again when they are looking for someone else in 3 years?

---

What have Slovenia got to do with it? They qualified through the playoffs against Russia. An easier draw than France IMO.
Anyway back to the point I think he's rebuilt the confidence of the side. If they take and build on the performance in Paris then I'm looking forward to and expecting us to do well in the Euro qualifiers. It obviously depends on the group we get but I'm optimistic that we can go and qualify. If we don't then we may be looking for a new manager.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crosby87

So how much time is it going to take man? More or less than Slovenia?
Does our manager have enough time left for himself or will the excuse cycle start all over again when they are looking for someone else in 3 years?

---

can you please elaborate on excuse cycle pertaining only to Trappatoni's tenure.

Also did Slovenia have a similar starting point to us, i.e manager taking over from a previous shambolic set-up..If you are using comparisons you need to be clear.

We have a terrible record in play-offs. Winning just one we participated in, against Iran, who were no great team.

We have lost 4 out of the last 5 play-offs we have been in. For whatever reason, we just aren't good at the play-offs. It's possibly because we get decisions against us in play-off games from refs along with other reasons.

That's why we must win the group in the Euro qualifying. Anything less and we will be into the lottery of play-off games and we don't want that.

I think Trap knows too that we must win the group. And that means beating the small teams home and away, beating the mid ranking teams home and away and beating the top seeds either at home or away and drawing the other game.

Winning the group is the only option, play-offs just don't suit us.

As for Trap, with all due respect to the previous managers Giles, Hand, Charlton, McCarthy, Kerr and Stan, they simply are not in Trap's league. He is the first manager we have with a consistant record of success at the top level, including success managing the Irish team. Yes we didn't qualify, but I think Trap got the maximum out of the players, brought in some new players and established a system that could serve Ireland for years to come.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reality Bites

can you please elaborate on excuse cycle pertaining only to Trappatoni's tenure.

Also did Slovenia have a similar starting point to us, i.e manager taking over from a previous shambolic set-up..If you are using comparisons you need to be clear.

---

I just think sometimes people on here think everything has to be perfect in order to qualify. The manager has to be here for 20 years, blah blah.
And therefore if anything is amiss it is a viable excuse i.e well, we WOULD have qualified but we had injuries, manager wasnt here long enough, its george bush's fault,etc....
BUT little Slovenia went into Russia and Q'd so it is hard for me to except any excuses. We are just not good enough right now.
That poster is saying we are headed in the right direction. Unfortunately players have such short careers in terms of world cups that it is hard to keep momentum that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crosby87

I just think sometimes people on here think everything has to be perfect in order to qualify. The manager has to be here for 20 years, blah blah.
And therefore if anything is amiss it is a viable excuse i.e well, we WOULD have qualified but we had injuries, manager wasnt here long enough, its george bush's fault,etc....
BUT little Slovenia went into Russia and Q'd so it is hard for me to except any excuses. We are just not good enough right now.
That poster is saying we are headed in the right direction. Unfortunately players have such short careers in terms of world cups that it is hard to keep momentum that way.

---

Crosby87 I get what you mean but when a team fails to qualify it's only natural to anaylse the situation and find out what went wrong in oder to improve on this the next time around. Especially when we were so close and that little extra could help us get over the line the next time.
It would also be hard to argue against the fact that we didn't qualify simply because we were not good enough.

As for people thinking everything has to be perfect before we can qualify; unfortunately for a small country with a limited squad this is almost the case. You have to play two supposedly better teams in a group of 5 or 6 and get more points than them over 8-10 games. A hell of a lot of things have to go right to overcome those odds. The players, manager and injuries all play a very important role and I think Trap did a very good job. It was a shame S. Reid was injured for most of the qualifiers but we were also very lucky that from what I consider our other 5 core players (Duff, Given, O'Shea, Keane,Dunne) only Duff missed a few games. It might have been a different story if two or three of these were injured long-term because their replacements are not a patch on them.

Thank you trap for giving us hope once more!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reality Bites

Anyone outside of Irish football support and a supporter of the game in general would find the above statement to be simply ludicrous.

On paper at the start of the campaign second place in this group seem a stretch for the players at our disposal. I think we were dogged at times and difficult to watch particularly away to Cyprus, but the ends justify the means and we got a result which firmly set us on the way to second place finish..What Trap achieved with Whelan and Andrews was remarkable, who would have thought these guys would have preformed with such strength of character and determination in Paris let alone knew much about either player at the start of campaigh. The manager believed in these players and they in turn returned that believe with a midfield display that hasn't been seen in years.
One of the most important things I alluded to above is the Team Spirit. At last we have a collection of players with character, they are a tight bunch and seem to be enjoying playing under the new management, hence no retirements or sulky displays. The same cannot be said for the Kerr and Staunton eras with widespread unrest and a good many retirements some natural others disillusioned.

Andy Reid has responded superbly to his banishment from the Irish Squad, he has lost weigh and is playing the best football of his career. Why? because for the first time he has been punished for neglecting a God given talent which he has failed to capitalise on through laziness. Reids sudden self-examination would not have been possible without Traps harsh treatment of him in the first place and now I believe the time is set for Reid to be rewarded with a call-up which will happen.

---

One thing I do agree with Roy Keane on and very much evident in here:

The lack of balls and losing Irish mentality

With Damien Duff, Robbie Keane and Andy Reid in our team (and indeed, Kevin Doyle, Richard Dunne and Shay Given), we should, as I said, have won this group.

And to suggest that “Andy Reid” should only “NOW” be ready to be offered a place in the team is totally laughable :D when Martin Rowlands and/or Liam Miller were in the squad, neither of whom could lace the boots of a 17 stone Andy Reid!

Restrictive, unimaginative, defeatist football only changing in Paris in the play-offs.

That is obviously good enough for the rest of you, the same crowd who think reaching the quarter finals of any tournament to be a huge success, no matter how many quality players we have.

“Ah well, sure didn’t we do better than under Stan” ……COMICAL!! :D

Interesting strategy.

Present argument.

Ignore credible response to argument.

Present same argument again, this time using bold font (the written equivalent of just saying it louder).

Quote:

---

With Damien Duff, Robbie Keane and Andy Reid in our team (and indeed, Kevin Doyle, Richard Dunne and Shay Given), we should, as I said, have won this group.

---

Italy had Pirlo, Buffon, Cannavaro... Bulgaria had Berbatov, M Petrov, S Petrov...how many teams 'should' have finished in the one qualifying spot?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scram

Restrictive, unimaginative, defeatist football only changing in Paris in the play-offs.

---

Remind me how many games we were defeated in during the campaign?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scram

Damien Duff, Robbie Keane and Andy Reid in our team (and indeed, Kevin Doyle, Richard Dunne and Shay Given we should have won the group

---

Damien Duff dropping down the way and now playing at Fulham, Robbie Keane let go by Liverpool and not playing well for Spurs, Andy Reid started off on the bench for mighty Sunderland, Kevin Doyle playing for relegation candidates Wolves, Richard Dunne let go by Manchester City, Shay Given can't disagree there. Not sure they rank ahead of World Champions, Italy.

Sometimes we think our players are much better than they are. They for the most part play for mediocre teams. We were seeded three and came second. That's not bad and we were within a hand's breath of a penalty shoot out against one of the powers of Europe who have players playing in most of the top teams.

p.s. We did very well to garner 6 points from Cyprus when you see how well their club teams are doing in Europe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Remind me how many games we were defeated in during the campaign?

---

To be fair Owlsfan, we didnt win a whole lot either

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Remind me how many games we were defeated in during the campaign?



Damien Duff dropping down the way and now playing at Fulham, Robbie Keane let go by Liverpool and not playing well for Spurs, Andy Reid started off on the bench for mighty Sunderland, Kevin Doyle playing for relegation candidates Wolves, Richard Dunne let go by Manchester City, Shay Given can't disagree there. Not sure they rank ahead of World Champions, Italy.

Sometimes we think our players are much better than they are. They for the most part play for mediocre teams. We were seeded three and came second. That's not bad and we were within a hand's breath of a penalty shoot out against one of the powers of Europe who have players playing in most of the top teams.

p.s. We did very well to garner 6 points from Cyprus when you see how well their club teams are doing in Europe.

---

You rate our players based on some flawed EPL managers’ views in order to support your contention that we don’t have high quality players!! I think you are another one suffering from the debilitating Irish inferiority complex. Take Richard Dunne for example, you say he shouldn’t be rated because Mark Hughes got rid of him…how ridiculous when it is 100% clear to anyone who knows anything about football that this was one of Hughes’ biggest mistakes.

The performance against France showed what our team are capable of if let play and what we could have done had we been let play and Andy Reid being selected. (oops, I forgot his last performance v Fulham wasn’t his usual high standard, so forget about him too….RIDICULOUS)

PS. Albania 6 Cyrpus 1

People say these days, how many of the current Irish team would get in the English squad, and most people would name a couple of names.

Think back to the players Jack Charlton had available to him and it was a completely different story. He had an embarrassment of riches at his disposal, a golden generation of players to pick from and the majority of them would have made the English squad at the time if they were English, an English team that reached the WC Semi Finals.

He had Bonner, Irwin, Stauntan, Moran, McCarthy, Lawrenson, McGrath, Babb, Brady, Whelan, Keane, Houghtan, Sheedy, Aldridge, Quinn, Cascarino, Stapleton, Townsend, and many more players available to him. Most of these players would walk onto any International team of the time.

We have some good players now, but not near enough the number Charlton had.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scram

PS. Albania 6 Cyrpus 1

---

you know, we did beat Cyprus. twice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scram

You rate our players based on some flawed EPL managers’ views in order to support your contention that we don’t have high quality players!! I think you are another one suffering from the debilitating Irish inferiority complex. Take Richard Dunne for example, you say he shouldn’t be rated because Mark Hughes got rid of him…how ridiculous when it is 100% clear to anyone who knows anything about football that this was one of Hughes’ biggest mistakes.

The performance against France showed what our team are capable of if let play and what we could have done had we been let play and Andy Reid being selected. (oops, I forgot his last performance v Fulham wasn’t his usual high standard, so forget about him too….RIDICULOUS)

PS. Albania 6 Cyrpus 1

---

Scram i give in you were right all along. Brian Kerr should be managing us with Andy Reid in central midfield and come July 11th ??? we should be in World Cup Final against Brazil / Spain playing fluent one touch football alot like Barcelona,because yes we do have the players to do so,they are technically gifted and never get injured,they are in fact playing below themselves in EPL and only those who follow the game with the same level of interest as yourself can spot this. So sack Trapand replace him with Brian Kerr re-instate Andy Reid in centre mid and we just have to turn up for the Euros, the rest is a formality....I for one cannot wait...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Emmet7

Think back to the players Jack Charlton had available to him and it was a completely different story. He had an embarrassment of riches at his disposal, a golden generation of players to pick from and the majority of them would have made the English squad at the time if they were English, an English team that reached the WC Semi Finals.

He had Bonner, Irwin, Stauntan, Moran, McCarthy, Lawrenson, McGrath, Babb, Brady, Whelan, Keane, Houghtan, Sheedy, Aldridge, Quinn, Cascarino, Stapleton, Townsend, and many more players available to him. Most of these players would walk onto any International team of the time.

We have some good players now, but not near enough the number Charlton had.

---

only the three highlighted would have "walked" into *any* (used lightly) international team. the players charlton had were better than the current crop, by a long way, but your outlandish statements once again undermine your overall argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scram

You rate our players based on some flawed EPL managers’ views in order to support your contention that we don’t have high quality players!! I think you are another one suffering from the debilitating Irish inferiority complex. Take Richard Dunne for example, you say he shouldn’t be rated because Mark Hughes got rid of him…how ridiculous when it is 100% clear to anyone who knows anything about football that this was one of Hughes’ biggest mistakes.

The performance against France showed what our team are capable of if let play and what we could have done had we been let play and Andy Reid being selected. (oops, I forgot his last performance v Fulham wasn’t his usual high standard, so forget about him too….RIDICULOUS)

PS. Albania 6 Cyrpus 1

---

Didn't Cyprus draw with Germany in our previous group, lose to a last minute goal in Italy and also beat Bulgaria?

I would value an EPL manager's view over yours. Have you managed in the EPL?

You are judging the Irish team's ability on the basis of one performance? RIDICULOUS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Emmet7

People say these days, how many of the current Irish team would get in the English squad, and most people would name a couple of names. Think back to the players Jack Charlton had available to him and it was a completely different story. He had an embarrassment of riches at his disposal, a golden generation of players to pick from and the majority of them would have made the English squad at the time if they were English, an English team that reached the WC Semi Finals.

He had Bonner, Irwin, Stauntan, Moran, McCarthy, Lawrenson, McGrath, Babb, Brady, Whelan, Keane, Houghtan, Sheedy, Aldridge, Quinn, Cascarino, Stapleton, Townsend, and many more players available to him. Most of these players would walk onto any International team of the time.

---

To be fair Emmet they weren't available all the time. You have listed players over the whole Charlton era.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Emmet7

People say these days, how many of the current Irish team would get in the English squad, and most people would name a couple of names.

Think back to the players Jack Charlton had available to him and it was a completely different story. He had an embarrassment of riches at his disposal, a golden generation of players to pick from and the majority of them would have made the English squad at the time if they were English, an English team that reached the WC Semi Finals.

He had Bonner, Irwin, Stauntan, Moran, McCarthy, Lawrenson, McGrath, Babb, Brady, Whelan, Keane, Houghtan, Sheedy, Aldridge, Quinn, Cascarino, Stapleton, Townsend, and many more players available to him. Most of these players would walk onto any International team of the time.

We have some good players now, but not near enough the number Charlton had.

---

Emmet, i totally agree with that post but you need to follow that line of thinking through its natural progression and ask yourself why this is. Is it simply a cycle or has english football changed since then and is the Irish national team suffering as a result? Would a successful domestic league that keeps some of its talent at home, at least until players reach a decent age, be more beneficial to the Irish national team?

You have raised an interesting point but there are hard questions that we need to ask ourselves and the answers are not all that simple.

Far away hills are greener.

has Trapattoni improved the team? Yes, without doubt, anyone who thinks otherwise is clueless
is there room for improvement? Yes, of course there is. But it's minor changes to a successful formula, as opposed to major surgery on a near dead patient, as was the case when he took over.

Thank you Giovanni.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Far away hills are greener.

---

Not if you're in Russia in the winter.

StSku what's your definition of a "successful domestic league"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Not if you're in Russia in the winter.

StSku what's your definition of a "successful domestic league"?

---

Healthy attendance coupled with success in international events (eg. Champions League).


The LOI have neither going for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

StSku what's your definition of a "successful domestic league"?

---

its all relative OwlsFan but for me, it would be regualr crowds of between 6000-8000 for the larger urban teams in comfortable and modern stadia, retain our young players and sell on for decent fees to Britain and further afield when they are ready, regular qualification for Europa League group stages and occasional qualification for CL group stages.

All of the above is attainable quite quickly but requires attitude change across the board (public, clubs, FAI and Government).

Im not gonna hold my breath but until something changes we should only expect to be the nearly men of international football.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

its all relative OwlsFan but for me, it would be regualr crowds of between 6000-8000 for the larger urban teams in comfortable and modern stadia, retain our young players and sell on for decent fees to Britain and further afield when they are ready, regular qualification for Europa League group stages and occasional qualification for CL group stages.

All of the above is attainable quite quickly but requires attitude change across the board (public, clubs, FAI and Government).

Im not gonna hold my breath but until something changes we should only expect to be the nearly men of international football.

---

That is 1st Division standard in the UK. Will never happen I am afraid. I went to LoI games in the pre-Sky wall to wall Premiership, PCs, laptops, mobiles etc etc era and the numbers attending LoI games were nothing like that. Some big games (FAI Cup Finals) attracted 30K plus but by and large the crowds seldom reached the numbers you speak of. A big game was anything over €1000.00 in gate receipts. There isn't a huge culture of following LoI games in Ireland and most things like that are passed down the generations. It will be extremely difficult to get the current generation of youngsters, even ignoring the counter-attractions of the national sport (GAA) and rugby, to go out on a cold Friday evening and to take up following a LoI team when they have live UK football on ad nauseum of the TV or their PC/laptop to play with.

I know they say "thread carefully when you step on my dreams" but I just don't see it happening I am afraid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

That is 1st Division standard in the UK. Will never happen I am afraid. I went to LoI games in the pre-Sky wall to wall Premiership, PCs, laptops, mobiles etc etc era and the numbers attending LoI games were nothing like that. Some big games (FAI Cup Finals) attracted 30K plus but by and large the crowds seldom reached the numbers you speak of. A big game was anything over €1000.00 in gate receipts. There isn't a huge culture of following LoI games in Ireland and most things like that are passed down the generations. It will be extremely difficult to get the current generation of youngsters, even ignoring the counter-attractions of the national sport (GAA) and rugby, to go out on a cold Friday evening and to take up following a LoI team when they have live UK football on ad nauseum of the TV or their PC/laptop to play with.

I know they say "thread carefully when you step on my dreams" but I just don't see it happening I am afraid.

---

you say that it will never happen and fine, it may not, but, and this is what my original point was, unless something similar does happen we can only ever expect to be a third seed, rarely qualifying team. If anything it will get worse as the Premiership is getting even more foreigners in and also qualification for international tournaments has gotten a lot harder.

This has probably been mentioned in the thread already but you are all aware that the spelling is "Trapattoni" and not "Trappatoni" as written in the thread title.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scram
PS. Albania 6 Cyrpus 1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

you know, we did beat Cyprus. twice.

---

I know the ridculous settings on this forum don't allow for more than one wrapped quote but you might address this to Owlsfan rather than take it completely out of context!!

Or have you read Owlfan's post I was referring to where he said "we did well to get 6 points from Cyprus considering their clubs did well in Europe"??

So far Trap has done well and has been unlucky not to qualify us for the World Cup.

Take out the dodgy Henry goal and on balance we deserved to be going to the WC more than the French, if only we converted some chances.

However, I think if we fail to qualify for Euro 2012 people might view Trap's reign as ultimately a failure.

You can forgive a manager their first campaign and not qualifying. There are issues like settling in, learning the language, learning about the players. But by the second campaign, there really should be no excuses. I think you can judge how good a manager is more so by the second campaign than the first.

Trap showed too much loyalty to certain players during the campaign, McGeady, Kilbane and McShane as examples, that he really shouldn't have and that didn't help our cause.

Our inability to put teams away during the WC qualifiers probably cost us qualification. It's something that needs fixing for the Euros. We need to score at least 2 goals in every game to be sure of a win and we need players to stop making stupid defensive errors.

Well it's reality. Ireland doesn't produce enough good players and the Irish team will go into decline in the coming years I'm sure of it. The football infrastructure is just not there in this country. It really is striking the comparison between football here and in Belgium at all levels. I really don't know how Ireland even manage to stay at the level they are at now.

All teams will have golden generations and it will come a time again when English clubs choose foreign Irish players as their transfer targets but by and large Ireland imo will go into decline in the next decade.

But on Trap what is he upto lately?

He was at Portsmouth VS Burnley recently, running the rule over Marc Wilson, and possibly O'Hara

[QUOTE=irishultra;1296015]
All teams will have golden generations and it will come a time again when English clubs choose foreign Irish players as their transfer targets but by and large Ireland imo will go into decline in the next decade.
QUOTE]

Is that why you have been using the word "we" in reference to Belguim a lot more on a lot more threads recently....

hahah no no we are **** so no lol. on here though i normally talk about belgium as just another team, but i've been using them as a point, as well as recent nostalgia for the place of my birth in the last week has meant i have brought it up more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by irishultra

hahah no no we are **** so no lol. on here though i normally talk about belgium as just another team, but i've been using them as a point, as well as recent nostalgia for the place of my birth in the last week has meant i have brought it up more.

---

aye, its that time of year alright... :(

ha am i missing something?

because family get together etc etc? In the last week? surely it would be this week though...

Belgium is hardly a fair comparision.

They have a greater population, a greater pick and also a sustainable domestic professional league with teams qualifying for the Champions League.

Having said that they haven't been world beaters at international level lately.

They may have better structures available to them but that's no good if the international manager isn't making the best of what's available.

The Irish international manager has done well with limited resources available to him. That's the mark of a good manager.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

ha am i missing something?

because family get together etc etc? In the last week? surely it would be this week though...

---

this week, last week, next week - its all christmas time to me Paul!

Stop invalidating my emotions. :D