Ireland V South Africa - Tuesday, 8th September 2009 - Friendly - Thomond Park

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Originally Posted by an_ceannaire

11,300 tells it own story.....:( there will be 20,000 + there on Friday night for a Magners League game, not a henieken cup game, a magners league game........

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Tells it's own story about Limerick. It was still a larger attendence then Munster were averaging in the Heneiken cup around 10 years ago.

Don't think Keogh was a bad as some are saying, thought he tracked back well to help out the full back and got some good tackles and blocks in.

Subs were the big plus, Best did well as did O'Dea, Lawrence grew into it after the goal, was quiet until then. Worth remembering that we were down to 10 men for a quarter of the first half which was when they had an awful lot of their possesion.

Happy enough to get a win and build some momentum, roll on next month and fingers crossed for a draw later tonight.

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Originally Posted by an_ceannaire

11,300 tells it own story.....:( there will be 20,000 + there on Friday night for a Magners League game, not a henieken cup game, a magners league game........

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There was well over 11300 at this game . I was at both games and the crowd was slightly less than the game v Aus ( I think the attendance was 20k+ for that ). I would estimate there was about 18k in attendance when making comparisons.

Might have to do with all the free tickets that were floating about.

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Originally Posted by First

There was well over 11300 at this game . I was at both games and the crowd was slightly less than the game v Aus ( I think the attendance was 20k+ for that ). I would estimate there was about 18k in attendance when making comparisons.

Might have to do with all the fee tickets that were floating about.

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it was 11,300 according to football365. There was no announcement at the game, and no confirmation on fai.ie

just like to to add that for the 5-10 minutes that Folan was off the pitch getting treatment, Ireland played with 10 men for the first time under Trapattoni. We settled into 2 banks of four, one in the penalty area, the next just inside the centre circle, with Doyle staying around the centre circle chasing the opposition defenders. South Africa had the majority of possession for this few minutes, but couldn't work the ball into a scoring position. This was obviously something that had been worked on in training and was pretty heartening to see

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

under previous managers it didnt take top sides to take us apart. i'm sure that trapp would have a plan for the likes of spain. one game at a time and we are light years ahead of where we were two years ago. there is just far too much negativity around the team at the moment. we are second in a decent group (no matter what dunphy said on tv last night about our group) and have a decent chance of reaching the wc...... we need a reality check!

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Spot on, you have to consider the mess we were in when Trap took over and the players we have at our disposal. We have a system finally, it takes time for the players to learn how the system operates and its even harder when you are under pressure to qualify.

The emphasis is to focus on how to not lose the game first, how the team can prevent the opposition from scoring/creating chances. Once the players have this down it becomes instinctive and they can start to exploit the attacking opportunities, knowing when to attack as a team.

It's a difficult process for the fans as the football is hard to watch, but it should be a lot easier to take when you are getting results....

lads how does lawerence qualify for us ?? whats his connection ?

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Originally Posted by Duggie

lads how does lawerence qualify for us ?? whats his connection ?

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He's Irish.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Not probably but most definitely.
How on earth could you have gone for the least likely option in the first place.

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I just saw the replay from behind the ball (where it wasn't that apparent that the SA guy was charging the ball) where as soon as the ball was kicked Gibson was clearly annoyed.

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Originally Posted by geysir

We need another name for our version of the staring game catanaccio.

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Pat-anaccio?

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Originally Posted by Greenbod

He's Irish.

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:D Is that enough??

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Pat-anaccio?

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:p Liking that

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Originally Posted by weldoninhio

Do you honestly think that even if we get to SA, that there won't be doom and gloom? Any top side will tear us apart, especially our midfield. Its not like before when the team went for it and got the fans excited about watching the team.

Under Trappatoni the emphasis is on not losing, rather than winning. Which is a fine philosophy for a tight qualifying group, but in a play-off situation or a tournament these tactics won't excite fans and get them behind the team and won't help us progress from the group stages. There has to be a balance. Ireland don't have this balance under Trap.

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I can’t believe this…I agree with Weldoninhio !!:confused:

Also, I’m astonished that no matter how obvious it is that our midfield are being destroyed that Trap still does not change. Quite obvious to any opposition that simply deploying a 4-5-1 against us will beat us!

I actually thought it was quite funny watching us without the ball. We were like a table football team, 4 across the bcak all in a line, 4 across the middle, all in a line and 2 upfront.

Boring as hell, but it works. Only two dreadful errors against Bulgaria mean that we haven't already nailed second.

Keep it tight, score from set pieces. Very Mourinho-esque, just without the star personnel.

I think criticism of the full backs' distribution is harsh. They really didn't have the options. They defended well which was the main thing.

I agree with eirebhoy's assessment. I think Italy away shows that there is another way we can play, but I think Trap thinks if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Funny thing is, if we get to SA I think it'll be like a mini-version of our qualifying group: one star team, one that we could compete well enough against and one team that is probably ranked well below us, maybe a NZ or someone like that. I don't think it's accurate to say that just because it's a WC that the opposition is necessarily all superior. Once you get to the last 16 then it changes.

Thought the 2nd half was a big improvement last night. Lawrence looks a good player but then he always impressed me for Stoke anyway, unlike Whelan. I'd seen very little of Best but he looks a good option, not afraid to have a go anyway. Folan hasn't let us down yet either, great attitude. He may have to leave Hull at this stage though as I can't see him getting too many games with Vennegor there now. Gibson needs a kick up the hole at this stage. Tactics or no tactics the guy offers no outlet whatsoever, even in comparison to Whelan or Andrews. He's in the squad ahead of a lot of other guys and it's not on merit, so he'd want to acklowledge that he's living the dream a bit and make an effort.

Yeah, I agree with the Gibson assessment, despite Trap’s assertion that he had a great game. By all means be disciplined and follow instructions without the ball, but that doesn’t mean you can’t show the courage & responsibility to take the ball.

It was quite telling for me that the biggest critics of the midfielders’ performance in last 2 games were Giles, Souness, Houghton & Whelan, all players who demanded the ball and used it smartly. I don’t recall them being critical of the system (I could be wrong) just that they wanted more positive involvement from the CMs.

I see no contradiction between having excellent discipline without the ball and wanting to use the ball properly when we have it. Maybe Trap just doesn’t think they have it and that it’s better to lose the ball up the pitch rather than nearer our box.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I actually thought it was quite funny watching us without the ball. We were like a table football team, 4 across the bcak all in a line, 4 across the middle, all in a line and 2 upfront.

Boring as hell, but it works. Only two dreadful errors against Bulgaria mean that we haven't already nailed second.

Keep it tight, score from set pieces. Very Mourinho-esque, just without the star personnel.

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I think we looked very tight, they were moaning on the TV (Here in SA) that they weren't able to get behind us, except the one run from the left full at the end of the first half when he should have pulled it back.
What I liked especially from Lawrence was that when the ball came down his side he dropped into effectively the right full position with Kelly shuffling towards the centre to pick up a runner or a through ball, didn't notice it as much on the left but Keogh is a natural to that position.

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Originally Posted by weldoninhio

Do you honestly think that even if we get to SA, that there won't be doom and gloom? Any top side will tear us apart, especially our midfield. Its not like before when the team went for it and got the fans excited about watching the team.

Under Trappatoni the emphasis is on not losing, rather than winning. Which is a fine philosophy for a tight qualifying group, but in a play-off situation or a tournament these tactics won't excite fans and get them behind the team and won't help us progress from the group stages. There has to be a balance. Ireland don't have this balance under Trap.

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Jack Charlton also placed major importance on not losing and then seeing if we could manufacture a win.

Maybe these two old geezers(Trap and Charlton) appreciated that this is the best way for us to approach international football. Afterall we are not Holland or Brazil.

Would it be an outrageous idea to play such a game for 20 minutes or so with 10 men?
Like Tets said, it was interesting to see how we adapted.

I was only watching a stream of the game but I really can't see where the heavy criticism of Keogh is coming from. No way should be start a competitive game on the wing but at a minimum it was useful experience for him and for us.

Right now I wouldn't be at all fearful if Lawrence was started at RM. Not saying he should but he would have been capable of playing there against Italy away.

I love how as the months tick on the critics have gone from saying we'd be destroyed by Italy and Bulgaria, to still not qualifying, to now it's getting to the stage of "sure we'll be hammered in South Africa anyway". :D

Lets say we had the exact same group as WC2002, Germany would be a similar situation to our games against Italy, keep it tight, won't be the better team but could sneak a point. Against a team like Cameroon I think we could easily get a draw, maybe sneak a win (like Bulgaria) and then I'd be confident we could beat a fourth seed like Saudi Arabia.

Then again we'd never be able to beat Spain in the final so what's the point?

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Folan hasn't let us down yet either, great attitude. He may have to leave Hull at this stage though as I can't see him getting too many games with Vennegor there now.

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If Vennegor was on his game then Folan would be a regular spectator, however on last season's evidence JVOH's game was far from that.

If it's a choice between Folan and (injury prone) JVOH to play, I'd say Folan will still get plenty of game time and possibly learn a few tricks from his rival.

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Originally Posted by geysir

If it's a choice between Folan and (injury prone) JVOH to play, I'd say Folan will still get plenty of game time and possibly learn a few tricks from his rival.

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Fingers crossed. The lack of matches hasn't afftected his Irish performances to date yet, thankfully.

I thought Nolan was awful.

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Originally Posted by Scram

I thought Nolan was awful.

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Looks extremely slow........even slower than Kilbane, a man 10 years his senior!

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Originally Posted by rambler14

Looks extremely slow........even slower than Kilbane, a man 10 years his senior!

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and gave the ball away like it had Swine Flu

It wasn't pretty but it was effective. South Africa dominated possession but never looked like scoring.

I thought Kelly defended well (covered the centre backs on two occasions) but was very sloppy in possession. Nolan at least runs out to the wide man and tries to close him down unlike Kilbane but again he was also wasteful in possession. St Ledger and McShane were solid. No real errors there.

Keogh isn't a wide player and can be excused from a real assessment. Lawrence put some decent crosses in and took his goal very well. Gibson was non existant (again). Andrews was slightly busier but both struggled. The game just passed em by. Fair enough they sat in front of the two centre backs and we didn't concede but they didn't probe and always took the easy option when they were in possession e.g. back to the keeper. It looks like Whelan and Andrews will be the central pairing once again for the Italy game because Gibson didn't do enough but I hope and pray two central midfielders fall from the sky who a) want to play for us b) can pass a ball but also fit into the Trap's system.

Folan worked hard, won a lot of headers and is a useful player to spring from the bench (as is Leon Best). I'm surprised Stoke haven't tried to buy Folan because he'd be ideal for them.

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

I'm surprised Stoke havn't tried to buy Folan because he'd be ideal for them.

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Well they signed Tuncay who's a quality player and already have Beattie and Kitson as target men as well as Fuller.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Well they signed Tuncay who's a quality player and already have Beattie and Kitson as target men as well as Fuller.

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Nothing wrong with a squad of depth! Folan would thrive on their set piece deliveries. Folan is a defenders nightmare and I love his attitude on the pitch.

JVOH went how long without a goal at Celtic?

Anyway, I thought Folan did really well in Bulgaria & Italy, less well last night. In his other games he brought others into the game but last night the ball wouldn't stick. He had great nuisance value but I've seen him do better for us.

I'm glad the consensus is that Keogh is exempt from serious assessment.

Could Kelly have played his way into Trap's thoughts (assuming Finnan hasn't had game time)? Kelly & JOS as full backs, on whatever side Trap decides.

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Originally Posted by Scram

Also, I’m astonished that no matter how obvious it is that our midfield are being destroyed that Trap still does not change. Quite obvious to any opposition that simply deploying a 4-5-1 against us will beat us!

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Yet no one has managed that in a competitive game.

Have you sent your managerial CV in to the respective FA's of Italy, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Montenegro or Georgia yet?

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Could Kelly have played his way into Trap's thoughts (assuming Finnan hasn't had game time)? Kelly & JOS as full backs, on whatever side Trap decides.

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No, I thought Kelly was poor tbh, I don't see any changes to the 11 barring injuries.

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

Nothing wrong with a squad of depth! Folan would thrive on their set piece deliveries. Folan is a defenders nightmare and I love his attitude on the pitch.

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Yeah I just wouldn't like to see him as 5th choice striker, although he's surely as good as Kitson.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm glad the consensus is that Keogh is exempt from serious assessment.

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Hopefully he'll be exempt from starting on the wing from now on.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Could Kelly have played his way into Trap's thoughts (assuming Finnan hasn't had game time)? Kelly & JOS as full backs, on whatever side Trap decides.

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Wouldn't mind it at all. I think he's a good defender and basically he'd be just coming in for Kilbane.

Kelly showed enough that he has the promise of being able to play better.
He needs to get his place on his club team

A draw is the best result as everything is still in our hands, an Italian win while pretty much guaranteeing our 2nd place will prevent us topping the group. I'd like to think we can get a win at home to Italy.

Off topic a bit - I think tonight's games across Europe are fascinating, NI's group in particular (Czechs in 5th!). Group 1 (Denmark, Hungary, Sweden, Portugal) is a good one too.

I don't think anyone will fancy going to NI and NI are capable of getting results against decent teams away. I'd say Poland & czech rep would iprefer to be in their shoes.

NI have the edge over Poland - they'll win the head-to-head if level. Czechs might still win 3 out of 3 - but they'll have to.

Head to head doesn't matter
goal difference is the first criteria if teams finish level on points.

Thanks, I stand corrected.

I think Lawrence may have played himself just about into contention. In a team where the tactics rely on soaking up a lot of pressure and trying to snatch a goal from a set piece or counter attack then Lawrences threat from set pieces and from distance could be very valuable. Especially when you consider Hunts disappointing turn at the weekend and McGeady's general ineffectiveness.

Lawrence offers good technique, good set piece option, good stamina and controlled aggression. All he has to do is keep it going and learn Traps system.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I think Lawrence may have played himself just about into contention. In a team where the tactics rely on soaking up a lot of pressure and trying to snatch a goal from a set piece or counter attack then Lawrences threat from set pieces and from distance could be very valuable. Especially when you consider Hunts disappointing turn at the weekend and McGeady's general ineffectiveness.

Lawrence offers good technique, good set piece option, good stamina and controlled aggression. All he has to do is keep it going and learn Traps system.

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McGeady has been the only player who looked like he might have any effect over the last few games and the RTE panelists like myself were calling for his inclusion at half time v Cyprus. Hunt should not have started ahead of him by any account.

ultimately his contributions have been about average for the most part. He hasnt set the international stage alight just yet.

I think he will come good its just that at the moment, from what ive seen over the last year, he's quite average.

I think Lawrence is not too far away from making a breakthrough at someones expense. If we qualify he could really push on and claim a place in the pre WC friendlies.