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Can continue this in financial crisis thread, but from what I've seen, even if the Govt pays an average of 80c in the euro (big overpayment IMO) this would effectively wipe bank shareholders out (and correctly so) as Govt shareholding would own 80% plus of BoI and AIB. Plus there is provision for a levy on future profits if NAMA ends up loss-making.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I've been thinking a lot about this and at this stage I agree with ORA on this one. But with everything this government has done regarding the banks the devil is in the detail.
The good thing about this NAMA is that it takes the workout of the bad loans out of the hands of the bankers that granted the loans in the first place. This is very important. Ideally they will employ a team of workout experts for this purpose - but I have no faith that they will. I am also scared of political interference in NAMA's work. Also, I really hope that Anglos loans are put in there (wouldn't surprise me if they are not.)
Whatever discount they pay it looks like it will probably bankrupt the banks (I've not seen the exact numbers of loans per bank versus available capital, but a back of the envelope calculation tells me it will) so they might end up being "nationalised" anyway (inverted commas used because there seems to be some idealogical problem with nationalisation, so they'll come up with another fudge); that being so, it shouldn't matter if they overpay or underpay as the taxpayer will lose on NAMA and gain through the nationalised bank, or vice versa (although that depends on what fudge they come up with - I'd prefer gain through NAMA than gain through a 'nationalised' bank; and I'm pretty certain they overpay).
On a lighter note, I've seen it suggested that Ahern should be brought back to manage the NAMA, seeing he's so good at managing assets without a bank. :D
It's neither a joke, nor true. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Christmas bonus taken away. Stands to reason as it'll be a tight Christmas for the majority of those in employment.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Hopefully the Commission on Taxation can come up with some real proposals to bring out tax base more in line with European averages. Which means bringing more people into the tax net.
You have to be on the dole for something like a year before you'd get the Christmas bonus anyway so a lot of people who've signed on in the past few months wouldn't be affected by this really. You can't lose something you didn't have.
It's not just the Christmas bonus either.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
It'll be a tight Christmas for those working, but they're better able to deal with deflation than those relying on the state for a living.
The perception that dole receipients are a bunch of feckless, useless scroungers has to change in the current climate, where 1,000 jobs are been lost a day, including highly skilled workers at the likes of SR Technics, who can and want to contribute to the nation's recovery, but can't at the moment.
A lot of this comes down to that it is worse to have money in your pocket and have it taken away then never have it all. People get used to money coming in and then when they lose it they find it hard to adjust. That is where the government in my view have messed up as they put too much money into peoples pocket over the last 10 years and now they are having to get loads of it back. In this case it is not best to have loved rather than never have loved at all.
For the reasons outlined by Neil I don't think this is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
People enter into financial commitments based on their income which are almost impossible to change in the short-term.
The long-term unemployed are certainly better able to cope with this budget than either the newly unemployed or the average worker/family, precisely because of the non-existant change in the short-term.
I don't see why deflation would be any easier to cope with if you're working. If you're working your money is down, whereas social welfare is the same. I still don't think there's deflation on day to day spending though either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
True. Once you give something it is very difficult to take it back e.g. medical card for pensioners, lower PAYE taxes, public sector state pensions.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Surprising it took them so long to come up with this budget given there is no imagination. PAYE income "levy" was 80% of the budget as all other measures put together don't bring in any money worth talking about.
Cowan continually talks about hard decisions to be made yet he keeps shying away from those decisions. FF have proven more concerned about summer elections than economic recovery.
I'll move bank posts back into Financial thread when I get time.
IMHO the social welfare is way to much - as I said before compared to what people get in the UK (about 60 pounds or so) and in other countries its a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
The government should be trying to encourage people to work and should cut the social welfare and a good few of the other benefits
1/3 of the government spending is now within social welfare
Please tell me how the hell 200 is too little? Poverty? - ha, give me a break:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
There are no jobs to encourage the unemployed to work. Ireland Inc. is shut. 5-6,000 people are losing their jobs EVERY week. Where do you suggest hiring these people??
England?? Recession. Europe?? Recession. America?? Recession. Australia?? Recession.
Please outline an individual's circumstances where €200 is too much? :confused: :rolleyes:Quote:
Please tell me how the hell 200 is too little? Poverty? - ha, give me a break
There's hundreds of thousands of unemployed in this country who would love a break too.
someone who has been unemployed for more than 18 months. Anyone who was long-term unemployed between mid-90s and 2007, frankly, didn't really want a job.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
I would agree it's a different ballgame now. There aren't many jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
yeah but spending too much of the country's budget on social welfare is not going to work either - sure lets bankrupt the country
either way the EU or the IMF will reduce it in the future if the FF clowns wont
200 a week!!!!!!! 800 a month, with rent paid, on top of children's allowance, amongst other things
funny how the bars are always full just after the social!!!!!!
or tell me why they are flocking over the border to draw the dole?
How so - its so terrible this social welfare?
I'm single but have 2 children. I have to give my ex(who works as does her husband) 60 euro a week in maintanance for my daughter but am not entitled to claim social welfare for her nor do I get children's allowance so thats 60 out of my Dole gone to someone who is in a 2 job household. when I was working I was only too happy to pay my way but now that I'm unemployed i'm still expected to keep up the payments how is this fairQuote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Its not fair, but what's not fair is your maintenance agreement (because of a ridiculously one-sided system, but that's another issue altogether). The problem isn't with welfare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
While we're at it, what's fairness got to do with anything? The budget was generally decidedly unfair!
You read, hear, and see the news I take it. If so, you will hear of every day where factories, shops and restaurants closing down, along with several other businesses in all sectors. Then there's businesses upping sticks and going to Eastern Europe and India. It's at a rate of 6k a week. If the government can't find work for them, (and it can't), they're entitled to claim social welfare.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
There's no bigger leveller than the dole. Whether you're a 20-year old apprentice, or a 55-year old qualified physician, whether you're a single man or have 5 kids, you're entitled to the same €200 payment as everyone else. And try to support yourself on that amount. €200 doesn't get you very far on the dole if you have commitments, you need other benefits to merely survive. And you have to endure sitting for months on end having other companies doors shut in your face. There are thousands of applicants for every job going.
How many other Eurozone countries have the IMF bailed out yet?? None, and won't be in the foreseeable future. .Quote:
either way the EU or the IMF will reduce it in the future if the FF clowns wont
Evidence??Quote:
tell me why they are flocking over the border to draw the dole?
Given the strict location criteria, I don't see that happening.
The minimum wage should have been cut as it is ridiculously high compared to other EU countries. High minimum wage level feeds into the cost of everything in this country. Any one above the new minimum wage would then pay income tax.
What came first, high prices, or a high minimum wage? I'd guess it was the chicken, but I'm no expert on fowlQuote:
Originally Posted by pete
Can't cut minimum wage. If employee is part-time on say, a 3-day week, he needs it to be at current levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I think that's just the basic dole there, there would be additions. But you are not comparing like with like. The cost of living is much cheaper (hence the exodus to Newry and Enniskillen for the shopping), and the NHS/ Prescription charges are much lower. The comparison with a country that's had the guts of 3 decades of Governments attacking social welfare isn't the example I'm comfortable to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
What jobs? The only encouragement would be towards re-training and education. The training is being hit by budget cuts and recruitment embargos and they're just about to introduce fees for 3rd level.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
It was inflation that drove up the minimum wage, not the other way around. Funny how it's people who have no prospect of ever having to survive on the minimum wage that are always the ones that want it cut...Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
your maintenance is another issue and nothing got to do with the social, and no its not fair at allQuote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
You obviously haven't read my posts - I am maintaining that the social welfare is far too high! It is costing the country far too much. Of course people are entitled to it if they dont have a job.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
20 billion social welfare budget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !:mad:
The EU or the IMF will have to bail is out - thats a given - watch this space
and there has already been grumblings from the Germans about our social welfare system (and about the expenses our politicians ratch up) - considering it will be them that will be footing the bill (as always)
Again its all back to the greed of this country - we want the government to hold our hands and wipe our............. and then we criticize them all the time!!!
I don't expect anything from this government and hence am never disappointed!
Please can you answer me this question - how would one spend more than 200 every week
I work and my wife works and we wouldn't spend that nearly between us!
[QUOTE=bennocelt;1140426]
Please can you answer me this question - how would one spend more than 200 every week
Living
[QUOTE=First;1140429]well yeah:)Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
but you know all this poverty and stuff
and LOI tickets are "only" 15 quid but if your on the social you get in for free!!!:)
Well by the time you have got 2 slabs of carling paid for your smack and fags done a few bets there is very little left out of 200 euro.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
I actually agree with you i think the jobseekers allowance ( stamps ) is ok left at 204 as your after paying your PRSI for long enough for just that reason. But for the basic Dole to be 200 euro is a bit high. If you have no mortage or rent worth talking about then 200 is loads.
The dole is a safety net so you can pay for food and bills if you want to go for a drink or smoke they are luxuries so you need to get a job.
[QUOTE=bennocelt;1140444
and LOI tickets are "only" 15 quid but if your on the social you get in for free!!!:)[/QUOTE]
If only the standard was anyway good , then this would be incentive enough to quit my job. :)
Only a tenner in Athlone ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Combat The Recession ... Support Athlone Town
Comeback when its officially a depression:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Ash
I can only assume those talking about €200 being loads mustn't be in the position of having a family, mortgage, car loan etc.
The point I was making is that a single mother who's never worked is entitled to whatever extra's on the social for having kids plus childrens allowance, but because my daughter does not live with me I'm entitled to nothing but the basic plus I still have to hand over 60 out of thatQuote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
so it is to do with the social welfare system. IMO the system favours single mothers not single fathers
Nobody yet has managed to demonstrate how €200 a week isn't enough without bringing in kids, rent etc. which all entitle you to separate additional benefits which SIGNIFICANTLY increase what you get from the state.
Macy's point about commitments like loans which can't be changed in the short-term is a valid one, but income protection insurance is specifically aimed at this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Think they are on about the long term unemployed getting the dole rather than someone who has just lost their job. Some one that has just lost there job that has a mortgage car loans family etc then no 200 euro isnt enough but its better than nothing.
But if some one that hasnt worked for 4 or 5 years goes and gets a car loan and mortage while all ready trying to support a family then that person is an idiot.
Thing is BGR if you were working and the child stays with you at least once in any 12 month period you are entitled to the same tax relief as a married man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
This is the equivalent of the mother receiving the single family supplement.
I agree with you on the allowances and such, you are not entitled to these if the main residence of the child is the mothers home. By definition a single parent allowance is because the child is being raised by one parent from a monetary aspect.
I myself am in the same position as you . I pay alot a month to my child's mother . Agreed when we split up without court involvement.This is off set by my tax relief . Though it is difficult when having a mortgage, running a car, paying my bills and insurances. Her mother is entitled to Single family allowance , chid welfare allowance , social housing and is allowed to work for 20 hours a week without any of her allowances being affected.
Thankfully I have a good job but I do worry that if anything happens to it , where I'll stand . You are correct the system is more favoured to the mother in these situations but it does reward and recognise those fathers that are are working and paying towards their childs upkeep. It is all relative to your income. I recently heard of a bloke who brought a girl to court because he beleived he was paying too much child maintainace for his daughter, €30 a week , the judged laughed at him and ordered him to pay €50 a week.
sorry but having a mortgage shouldn't come into it at all - thats not the responsibility of the stateQuote:
Originally Posted by Macy
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0409/inflation.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Macy
funny that:)
It should, especially if the state is paying rent allowance (but makes gives no allowance for mortgage).Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Pity you didn't read the link to the CSO. Year on Year, Food and Non-alcoholic beverages down only 0.5% (same month on month), general goods and services up 9.1%, Beer and smokes up 5.9%, Education up 5.5%, Health up 4.7%. Most of the decrease is down to mortgage rates which doesn't effect everyone (either no mortgage or on a fixed rate), and reductions in home heating oil (little use now as we come into summer).Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
If you look deeper at some of the year on year decreases, like clothing & shoes and transport, they're actually starting to go back up again in the month on month figures.
I aint going back to look, but I think I said looking at the headline rate can be misleading, didn't I?
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
i suppose the government should help me with my credit card loan, and my student loan?
It does if you are on the dole you can claim a mortgage payment too it helps pay the interest only part of your loan but its a help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
If your working you can claim TRS
The bottom line is that all other thing being equal (note to everyone trying to compare apples and oranges), you shouldn't be better off on social welfare than in fulltime employment.
Yet that's exactly what this budget will do. And that's wrong, morally financially and any other way you want to look at it.
The social welfare bill, is comprised of all levels of social welfare, not limited to JA/JB.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
I can't see any bailouts from outsiders for at least 5 years. We have our EU membership, we have the Eurozone, so it's like standing in a bus shelter in a thunderstorm. There is a degree of protection for EU states in the current crisis, including Ireland.
I'd have no problem paying income levies, as I'd have a job. JA/JB is the lowest possible rung of the economic ladder though, and should be the very very last area to take a hit, instead of the first.