Cestlavie, you are the type of person who does not deserve to support Ireland.
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Cestlavie, you are the type of person who does not deserve to support Ireland.
This is your team from that thread
Keeper: Given (agreed, so does Trap)
RB Foley or O'Brien (any better than McShane? Probably not)
CB Dunne O'Shea (agreed, and it's Trap who has made this partnership)
LB O Dea (any better than Kilbane? Maybe, maybe not)
CM S Reid S Ireland (one may never play again, the other doesn't want to play, so you're living in fantasy world here)
LM Duff (Best of what we have I guess, Trap agrees)
RM Mc Geady or A Reid (pick one. Either way McGeady isn't good enough, neither is Reid)
ST Doyle Keano (Traps choice too)
So the ringing changes that you would make to Traps team are Foley or O'Brien in for McShane, untested O'Dea in for Kilbane, and a central partnership that will never happen.
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2...kerclapbq7.gif
that's not what i asked. I asked.... who would you have brought on that night? Clue: have a look at the bench..... Was there anyone there who had ever scored away from home?Quote:
Originally Posted by cestlavie
I dont think he should go yet as he is potentially as good as you'll get. What I would like to see as I said elsewhere is he would swallow his pride and admit he just does not have the players to play his style. 6 defenders and 4 attackers the good old 6-4- formation.Also show us he is a good enough coach to change games in a tactical way.
You can only put your finger in the dyke for so long , eventually the water will come flowing in and that what it looks like at the moment , lots of leaks with sticking plasters on them.
I agree that Andy Reid is not the answer but he might be part of the answer. Carsley is not the answer but he does what he does better than Whelan.
I know Delap is not the answer for sure but he would be an option of the bench in the last 20 minutes for a change of tactic , better than the serial bench warmer miller.
Young Long is not the answer but surely his pace running at a tired defender might be an option late in a game instead of sticking with hunt loosing every second ball.
We all know we have just got the best of players at the moment but I think we have better players than Bulgaria. We just made them look better last night.
There had to be some way we could have changed it around last night but stubbornness prevented that.
Do we have a friendly before Bulgaria , I think so. Would be a good time to try a plan B even for a half but will he ? No,
I dont think he should go but maybe he should start earning his money.
I didnt pick the bench, On the night from the bench chosen, I would have had to put McGeady on the left after Hunt was taken off and A Reid in the middle for S Reid.
This thread is an embarrassment to this website!
(Can admin please merge it with the 'One trick Trap' thread' - it's better to concentrate any criticism in one thread, otherwise there is constant overlapping)
You really know nothin about his injury do you.Quote:
Originally Posted by cestlavie
Stephen Reid did a cruciate knee injury and had swelling of the knee before the ireland games and after. He was going to have constant swelling of the knee after every game and this would have not only put his career in jepeordy but also his health into the future. He needed another operation. Him playing and extra 15 or 20 mins in Montenegro did not do the damage.
But Trap is being criticised for a short term approach and not building for the future (I appreciate you may not have made this point, but it has been made). Whelan looked better last night than in any of his previous games (although again I appreciate that isn't saying much), and is 10 years younger! Carsley is 35, and may not even be playing professionally by the time of the World Cup in 2010!Quote:
Originally Posted by ainsie
There is way too much negativity going about here when we are in a strong position, looking pretty solid defensively (which is an improvement on our last three managers) and strong favourites to make a play off place.
I Trust in Trap!
And you are the type of a person who attacks the poster rather than offering any kind of constructive point of view. Just have a look back at your last 10 posts. Its healthy to have a debate, who do you think you are to say who can and cant support Ireland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
I also see a point from somebody else mind you so you are not alone in that world of yours, re: "Have Ireland really been any better to watch at any point in the last 7 years?"
Have we ever really played good football since the late 1980's? Recent games remind me off that spectacle that was the Egyptian game!
I couldn't be arsed replying to someone who seems like they are 10 years old, blames Trapattoni for Steven Reid's 3 seasons of injury hell, and wants a complete change of policy and system, which consists of bringing in Kevin Foley of Wolves for Paul McShane of Sunderland. It's not good for my blood pressure.
My point exactly Jicked, you have nothing to offer on this website but insults and from the last post you appear to be having trouble reading, bed time for you! Mammy must be calling!
This coming from a poster who started a thread entitled; "On your bike Trap and Co."Quote:
Originally Posted by cestlavie
Frankly, I am stunned that this thread has popped up - a definate low point for this website.
Is there something wrong on this website that if you start a debate you get lambasted for making a point, Wouldnt it be great if we were all singing of the same hymn sheet. I dont think I am alone with this point of view. I would love to be proven wrong seriously I would. Get back to debating my initial point.
Nobody has even questioned Liam Brady's current influence or contribution to the team???? In his day, If his football ability was being stiffled by a manager or system how would he have reacted?
I have no bother with Trap being in charge for the full campaign cant see him being able to continue to manage beyond that point anyway but I am also looking to the future, I want a team built that will be truely competitive so that we can realistically not just qualify for the next European championship but also give it a real go.
i agree with everyhting bolded. I dont think there is any good to getting rid of him as there is little else out there at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by ainsie
To all the people defending Trap, i want to ask one question.
Why is he unquestionable? Why are his actions infallible?
Healthy debate and constructive criticism of any managers tactics/selection is a good thing.
edit: i suppose thats technically 2 questions...
another question for the defenders of Trap.
Will his success be defined as: 2nd place, is it a play off berth, or is it qualification for the World Cup?
what if we dont finish in the play off berths? Is it simply unlucky or do we then begin to question why he didnt try and finish off Bulgaria after such a super start? We should have put them to the sword... we have to go to Cyprus, Bulgaria and Italy and Italy have yet to visit us... i dont know about anyone else but we need to win at least 2 of those games to be fairly sure of a play off berth... i dont see it. :o
Quote:
Originally Posted by cestlavie
So what, we're not in with a good chance of qualification now? Take a look at the table please.
And whats the point of playing wild,expansive football with players who aren't talented enough to play that way. I want to be in SA next year and if that means we score 2 goals in the next five matches I'd bite your hand off.
As for the "good" money, that's your decision, maybe you should keep ur "good" money and watch it on the box. As Dunphy would say "if you want to be entertained go to the cinema". I go to support the lads not heckle about whether they perform for my entertainment in the stands.
Jeez, harsh thread. Completely over the top. Expecting him to hop on a bike is a bit much at his age. You could at least call a taxi for the man!
were making due with what we had... to be honest we only deserved a draw against bulgaria.. all for traps but sometimes his tatics actually have me wondering.. if that was away to bulgaria id understand getting a goal and trying to hold out but we didnt even have a right proper go. yes wed chances but we really needed to just go at them. trap and co to go id say no but he should really be listening to whats around him and adjust tactics more... andy keogh brought on in the 89th min. whats use in that????
Starting a thread such as this, is reflective of a certain ignorance of the potential and merits of this Irish side. There is nothing wrong with criticism, any side's management team should be open to critique - it keeps them on their toes. This thread is not that.Quote:
Originally Posted by cestlavie
This Irish side is achieving results in the face of having a limited squad. Currently, this side has 'no central midfield.' When I see a midfield comprising Whelan, Andrews and Hunt, I shudder. These three players are journeymen and are not of sufficient ability to prosper at international level. They even fall short of a certain level of competency. How some people expect an Irish team to play good football and express themelves when it's midfield is comprised of these players is beyond me. Some posters have written that Trapattoni is stifling their talents and that they should be allowed to express themselves, following on from this I repeat the question - what 'talent' do you wish to be expressed? These players do not have the positional sense or game intelligence to play in this fashion. Trap is not stupid. If he allowed this, we would be left exposed in defence and therefore left open to conceding. Do you want us to lose?
Of the current crop of central midfielders, Darron Gibson is the most talented. He is highly rated by many respected foorball observers but is he ready for a starting berth?
In regards to Andy Reid, I am critical of Trapattoni for not having him in the squad. On the basis of footballing ability, he should be in the it. It is clear however that Trap sees him as winger and not a central midfielder and in this case he wouldn't get on ahead of either McGeady or Duff but he is nonetheless a good option to have on the bench. He is definitely not however, the answer to all our prayers, as some posters would like to portray him.
Trapattoni's game plan relies heavily on McGeady and Duff. That this is so obvious - is a major flaw. An opposition manager of any notable esteem will know that to neuter Ireland, one needs to nullify the threat from the flanks. In fairness to Trapattoni, it is very hard to disguise this when our current midfield is so inadequate. Not only that but we had Paul McShane and Kilbane playing at fullback last night. Paul McShane is truly awful, no need for any further elaboration. Kilbane, despite having been a great servant to Irish football, has aged and his effect is almost devoid of any potency despite still bringing some measure of reliability. In analysing the wingers themselves, McGeady is our most naturally talented player. He is frustrating at times, but when utilised correctly we will see his true worth - which will be when he is used as a number 10, which Trap alluded to earlier in the campaign. Hunt, despite bringing much passion and endeavour, is another painfully limited player. I still can't believe some posters thought he was better than Duff or that Duff's absence wouldn't be felt much because Hunt was a more than adequate replacement.
Keane and Doyle do not really function as a partnership. Doyle is a player I have come to admire greatly in an Irish shirt, though he is technically limited. Keane's potency, as we already know, relies heavily on his forward partner. In spite of a lack of chemistry between the two and more significantly a lack of service, they have performed fairly well so far. I repeat; how do people expect them to thrive when our only creative outlet from midfield last night was McGeady.
Trapattoni has brought a defensive solidity to this side which was sorely needed after the debacle that was Steve Staunton's management reign. Have people forgotten this? Dunne and O'Shea now look formidable in central defence and thankfully we now have a calmness and assurance in this area.
Overall I just think that people need to have some realism with regard to the Irish side at present. In my opinion, our present position in the table is very good considering the players at our disposal. Yes, Stephen Reid and Stephen Ireland would make a huge difference and change the complexion of the Irish team immeasurably but they are not available and that is not Trapattoni's fault.
Trapattoni & Co. on yer bike - Nahhhhh! ;)
Cestlavie, you are absolutely correct it is healthy to have a debate. However when you start a thread titled "On your bike Trap and Co." immediately after just one bad result (even though at the start of qualifying we probably would have taken it) you should really expect to get hammered. This knee jerk reaction suggests you know very little about football. For example, it seems obvious you don't recall watching the dross served up by Jack Charlton's teams which we all loved and followed passionately because it was successful. Do you remember the game v's Egypt in 1990? Worst game of football ever played anywhere on this planet at any time in history!!! It felt like the end of the world but we still went on and made the 1/4 finals. Trap is by far and away the most experianced and qualified manager we have ever had, to be looking to sack him know is quite simply ridiculous. We are in 2nd spot in a group containing the world champions, did we ever expect to finish top?? We are in a very healthy position so relax, stop worrying about Reid and Ireland and get behind our team. That way when we qualify (Via the playoffs) you will not feel guilty about cheering them on in SA.Quote:
Originally Posted by cestlavie
Just watched the game there.
While Bulgaria enjoyed the better possession, we were better defensively and generated the better scoring opportunities.
We were better than them in the first and last third of the pitch, but they clearly won in the centre.
Ultimately, our midfield was impotent, and our attacking players missed a number of promising opportunities.
That said, with the way our defense is playing, I wouldn't rule out getting something off Italy.
I think its business as usual for many Irish fans(?) and pundits who love to jump on a managers back a soon as there is one slight slip.
When we strip it down to the bare bones, we are half way through the group with 11 points from 5 games, if we nick a point on Wednesday SA2010 is back on track. Think the Bulgarians failure to win a game yet indicates that they are likely to drop points against the likes of Montenegro, Georgia and possibly Cyrpus on Wednesday?
If you offered me 11 points from 5 games under Stan I would have bitten your limb off! Lets not stop believing just yet!
Wednesday night, 1-1, Kevin doyle! COYBIG!!
[quote=Jicked;1132271]Spot on. I sometimes wonder what the hell is wrong with us as a nation, who do we think we are? Brazil? Wake up and see us for what we are, a team of journeymen with the odd top class player who are beginning to punch above their weight again. We are second in our group behind the world champions. Not even David Blaine could turn us into world beaters overnight.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
Does anybody actually remember San Marino away 1-2, cyprus away 5-2. The late equaliser in slovakia/slovenia who cares which one!! It was not that long ago. Wake up - its not pretty but we have a chance. Dont kid yourselves we are not a quality side. We are functional with functional players and we are doing better than we should expect. This is a league, we are nearly half way through and we are second. Cop on you gloryhunting, rose tinted glasswearing, sky sport loving, dunphy quoting...................
This whole thread (and any movement to get Trapattoni out of the manager's job) is pretty insulting. He's a massive improvement on a joke, and an uninspiring choice. Neither of the previous 2 managers would have gotten a better result against Bulgaria (Kerr never beat anyone higher than Albania. Staunton - please).
We're second. We're seven points clear of third. We're organised. We haven't lost.
Bolton play the most dire, inspid, insulting football known to creation. They qualified for Europe with Kevin Davies as their main striker.
Get over it.
Trappattoni might get us to the World Cup, but there is a very good chance that he will not.
I feel that Trapattoni has picked a system that really doesn't suit out players. The role of the two defensive midfielders under Trappatonni is a tactical error. No matter how unglamourous that role is, it is NOT one that can be carried out players of limited ability. That is the role of a confident, aggresive midfielder. A flatter midfield 4 suits our players better in several ways.
A flat midfield 4 is supported by industrious defensifly sound wide-men.
Compare:
Kilbane_Holland_Kinsella_G. Kelly
vs.
Hunt_______________McGeady
______Whelan__Andrews
I don't feel that Whelan and Andrews can support these two guys on the wing, when they have to provide the creativity.
Holland and Kinsella were certainly better players that what we have now, but McCarthy understood their limitations. That is why he selected KK and Gary Kelly on the wong. Kevin Kilbane had pace, an enormous work-rate and the attributes of a fb. Gary Kelly was a pacy fullback who knew how to stick the ball in the box. Both of them were capable of helping out the central midfielders when needed.
I also don't feel that the players he selected for the defensive mf role are even the best available. Andrews is an attacking midfielder in a lot of ways. He could be useful going forward - especially if widemen could cover defensivly. Whelan is just not a very sound player imo. Lee Carsley is better destroying stuff in the center. I reject statements like "he was part of an irish midfield that could not control games and now his legs are gone" because whether or not it can happen in football manager or fifa or whereever this notion that he can't cope because he's 35 has stemmed from, I believe that Lee improved as a player into his 30s. His last season with Everton was one of his best. His form with Birmingham is excellent. He merits a place in the squad.
Clinton Morrison would love to play and would be a good option off the bench.
To crystalize my point, Trap may get us there but if he doesn't he will have to shoulder heavy blame because he is ignoring options available to us.
No matter what does or does not happen under the hot South African sun in the summer of 2010, we can be reasonably assured Trap won't be our manager after the tournament. Surely McCarthy is in with a shout?
If we qualify for the World Cup, I'd say Trap will be offered a new contract.Quote:
Originally Posted by danonion
If he doesn't take it, I'd say Brady would be offered the job.
Would Mick even take the job if he was offered it?
When Italy defend resolutely, with all the genuises at their disposal, it's called art.
When we do it, it's because we're crap. :rolleyes:
The bigger picture is in the table. In the last campaign, we had 10 points after 6 games with 8 goals conceded. This time, we have 11 points from 5 games with 3 goals conceded and are unbeaten.
If people can't see the progress in that, then they can't be helped. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilkCut
I agree with 'Silkcut' AND 'Cestlavie' here. I agree with 'Silkcut' when he says that we have a top class manager and he is doing he best with the squad that we have, but I also have to agree with 'Cestlavie' when he/she says “Is there something wrong on this website that if you start a debate you get lambasted for making a point”
Absolutely spot on there, I could not agree more. There are several people here who believe that because they have a lot of posts that they can dictate the run of a thread. I feel sorry for these people, maybe as opposed to building posts they could start building muscles? I believe that this site should encourage people to speak their mind, and everyone should be allowed to have and give their opinion. Remember that opinions are like *******s, everyones got one.
If you are an Irish supporter and you pay out a fortune every year to go see them play by using trains, busses, darts, petrol/diesel, on official shirts, training gear, flags and scarfs, not to mention driving half way across Belgium to find an Irish pub that gives priority to the Irish supporters as opposed to the English (good luck) I think that without a doubt you have an opinion!
I don’t agree with Mr 'Cestlavie' says but has every right to say it. Calling him a ‘moron’ for doing so is nothing short of internet bullying.
Now my opinion:
Beggars cannot be choosy. We simply don’t have the talent! Trap is doing the best he can with what we have. We are second only by two points against a team that are the world champions!! Its so much better than the last time so at least that is an improvement
P.S – If you want to see how bad things are for other countries look at Belgium for Gods sake! Two of the best players in the Premiership and look at the rubbish that they serve up for their ‘supporters’
It could be a lot worse people, a lot worse
Thankyou for a reply on what the OP was about , Trap as a 1 trick pony (or so it appears) Its meant to be a discussion on what maybe could be done or what options are open to him not a get out trap thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by danonion
Go to the other thread to discuss Trap out.
To the people name calling , go to the other thread and call names
Wrong he was a good manager, but he is only here for one last big pay day!Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckydee
The only reason he has been see at grounds recently was to head off any criticsm for not getting out and seeing players doing well,when he had no intention of picking them.
How he can still pick the likes of McShane and Bruce is beyond reasoning!
As was Jack Charlton.Quote:
Originally Posted by the doc
2 years ago, we were crying and bawling over why we're not in contention for qualifying.
2 years later, we're still crying and bawling, when we have a serious chance of qualifying, and climbing the world rankings.
You'd swear we were Brazil. :rolleyes:
After watching that game a few things are now obvious to.
Firstly the "Irish Supporters" People leaving for half time with 10mins left in the half and then 15mins before full time.
It's a disgrace. Why do people bother going if they have no interest?
A few clowns booing Mc Geady?
We are in the best position we have been in for years and we still aren't happy.
Granted it was a terrible performance! but woeful defending by Kevin Kilbane we would still be top of the group.
Which would we prefer to be playing beautiful football and getting beaten or keeping it tight and waiting for the breaks?
One thing we need to do is keep possession better. We gave away too much ground unfortuneatly we didn't seem technically able to hold onto the ball?
We are missing (I think anyway) 5 players who would should be starting for us.
2 Full backs
Left Midfielder and 2 central midfielders.
Roll on Wednesday lets hope we can get something from the game.
I agree to an extent but I'd also query whether the question is that straightforward and whether there's a third way - play constructive proper football and take teams on at home? Bulgaria were there for the taking and we wasted 74 minutes of the game in this regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Axe Man
Just like billsthought's (where is he?) Spanish mate at the Brazil game who said "that isn't even football, it's hoofing" that's all we did on Saturday. It just wasn't football and I think there's a middle ground between Trap's pragmatism and foolhardy attacking football. Razor rightly said that the easiest way to defend is to keep the ball. If you were to look for a positive it's that without the ball we are well set up. It's just a shame this is for 70% of the match.
Anyway, here's hoping it was a particularly bad day at the office rather than anything more fundamental (my glass is back to being half full again).
This is the first post in the thread and I just wonder where this negative tactics thing about Trap comes from? I don't see any negative tactics in playing 2 forwards and 2 wingers. If you want negative tactics, he would be playing 5 in midfield and just one up front.Quote:
Originally Posted by ainsie
The problem is we don't have players who can keep the ball, especially the 2 full backs who gave the ball away on numerous occasions. I have little doubt they are being played for their physicality in what is otherwise a small team.
Before people mention Andy Reid, he is not getting his game in a struggling Sunderland team and if he were to play, I think we would have to revert to 5 in midfield but who do you then drop, Doyle or Keane ?
Trap plays an attacking formation. Trouble is the team is full of mediocrity and he is trying to paper over the cracks. A new manager would also have to do the same.
Be loyal. Don't abandon the ship at the first sight of an iceberg!
My only complaint against Trap is he complete unwillingness to use subs when it is painfully obvious that they are needed in a game. I refuse to critisize his tactics too much, they are the tactics he has used to great effect for 30 years. People fail to realise that we have a central midfield with under 10 caps between them, and a central defensive partnership that are in their first campaign together. These things take time.
True but there are other attacking formations. When he was appointed I was excited by the prospect of at least a subtle difference to the age old 4-4-2. What we've got is as rigid a 4-4-2 as we've ever had.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Our biggest problenm in a weird way is that our best attacking midfielders are wide players and, as you allude to, Duff, Keane and Doyle are undroppable - McGeady less so in my opinion but I see the point in playing him as he can clearly do damage. If each is fit then fine, but Duff was out and McGeady wasn't really at it.
What I'd like to see is a narrower midfield, mobile & confident full backs who can at least develop play and at best (if required) provide the width. Did anyone notice the positions the Bulgarian full backs took up in the second half? Even without the ball they were stationed 40 yards from our goal.
The above would still allow 3 from the abovementioned attacking players to make a fuss upfront - in any number of ways. Ther'es less pressure on a midfield two and there's a smaller gap between midfield and defence. Andy Reid would be ideal to patrol this gap.
Shape is only on paper anyway I suppose. I just wish the players themselves were better and smarter in possession.
Saturday's game wasn't great and I don't particularly like the football that is being played. I don't have a problem with having a defensive set up, but I do think we need to have far more possession of the bal. No matter how well set up a team is defensively, inviting that much pressure onto us will inevitably lead to mistakes and potentially a goal. I also don't agree with all of Trap's decisions in terms of players to use. Andy Reid is the main gripe with me as I do think his inclusion would give us a better chance in games.
However, Trap is still relatively new to the job and so far we've been getting results. I dread to think of where we'd be with Staunton in charge right now. We're a LOT better now and we are still in the driving seat for a play off berth. I also really think we're missing Steven Reid right now. I think his presence was fundamental to the way that Trap intended us to play and sadly there's nobody out there who is anywhere remotely as good in his role.
The criticism is far too soon IMO. There's no harm in constructive criticism, but to say that he should leave after little more than a year in the job and only halfway through the qualification campaign is ridiculous. It's that kind of knee jerk reaction that put us in the position that we're currently in.
Trapp has just been on Sky Sports News defending his decision not to change his team or squad.
He cites Chelsea and Man Utd saying they keep settled squads, well Trapp they also get rid of any player not up to the required standard, unlike you!
This bloke has lost the plot!
But what subs can he bring off the bench? He only brough Keogh on because McGeady had shipped a knock. Hunt for Duff was the only change he likes to make but since Hunt started, not too many other match changing subs he could make.Quote:
Originally Posted by carloz