Sean St Ledger

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Yeh I don't think a player must be playing in the premiership for us to judge him. But I think McShane is a centre half, not a right back in a million years, and because of his inexperience in that position he needs to be playing beside a decent organiser.

And by the way, a decent organiser could sort out his poor positioning and lack of pace in one go. If that happens you've a great little player imo.

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Having said all that though about him being a cb and not rb, would you be happy for him to be playing cb for us now say if josh got injured? Reckon it would be a bit of a disaster, and thats coming from someone who has routinely criticized josh in the past. I can't really see mchane ever having an ireland future at cb, he's just so dodgy.

The problem is, as I see it, is that there are a limited number of places in the squad. Alex Bruce was named in a B international friendly against Nottingham Forest, was named captain presumably based on his performance and presence at training.

He has since retained his place in the Senior squad. Until he is injured or has a bad game for us he shouldn't be dropped. Also until any of the other centre back options are unavailable for the senior squad, clamouring for anothers inclusion is pointless.

The problem all stems from the naming of that B squad which named Bruce, O'Dea and McCarthy in the squad, this squad was chosen by Givens and other scouts. St Ledger will get his chance eventually.

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Originally Posted by as_i_say

Having said all that though about him being a cb and not rb, would you be happy for him to be playing cb for us now say if josh got injured? Reckon it would be a bit of a disaster, and thats coming from someone who has routinely criticized josh in the past. I can't really see mchane ever having an ireland future at cb, he's just so dodgy.

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To be honest I'd actually rather have McShane centre back, O'Shea left back and Finnan right. I think that's our best defence. I still definitely rate McShane at centre half with the right guy. As good as O'Shea has been under Trap he hasn't been error prone either. People say don't break up the centre of defence but if it means McShane is playing at right back I certainly would.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

To be honest I'd actually rather have McShane centre back, O'Shea left back and Finnan right. I think that's our best defence. I still definitely rate McShane at centre half with the right guy. As good as O'Shea has been under Trap he hasn't been error prone either. People say don't break up the centre of defence but if it means McShane is playing at right back I certainly would.

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I really think O Shea has been absolutely dreadful for us at left back and in any other position except for center back for that matter. He is benefiting now from his partnership with Dunne and even though hes not playing CB at ManU, he's surrounded by quality and it has always been essential for him. I reckon if he ever left united he could find himself becoming the forgotten man.

St Ledger deserves a call up on form. McShane reminds me of Alan Kernaghan, you worry any time he gets the ball. I wouldnt have him near cb for us to be honest! He's had a decent season at right back but doesnt offer much in attack.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

whats the difference between the bolded statement and any other statement made so far - just as opinionated, just as difficult to prove and just as ridiculous.

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McShane proved himself a good Championship player in his years at WBA and Brighton.
While he was at Hull this season he's been okay.
And so if he dropped down a division he'd probably return to his better form, that's his level. He's a Championship player.
What about the above is ridiculous?

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Originally Posted by Jicked

McShane proved himself a good Championship player in his years at WBA and Brighton.
While he was at Hull this season he's been okay.
And so if he dropped down a division he'd probably return to his better form, that's his level. He's a Championship player.
What about the above is ridiculous?

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He was an ok player in the championship and he played most of his football at right back with West Brom. St Ledger is good player and plays in the centre. He is by far a better player than McShane or Bruce for that matter.

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Originally Posted by FarBeag

He was an ok player in the championship and he played most of his football at right back with West Brom. St Ledger is good player and plays in the centre. He is by far a better player than McShane or Bruce for that matter.

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Ok I'll ask again, how many games have you seen St Ledger play, and how many have you seen Bruce play?

McShane is not a premier league centre half. He is too slow, too short, and too likely to switch off. Perhaps he can play full back as he seemed to do well for Hull on loan in that position at that level, but theat is as much as we can expect from him.

Bruce is not up to Premiership standard. Thats not my opinion, its Steve Bruce's. And if anyone in the world was going to give him a fair crack of the whip it was his dad.

St Ledger i have hardly seen play, but from what i remember of him in the dressing room in that thing Sky 1 did a year or so back when he was at Peterborough, he is a disruptive influence.

We would be far better off getting both O' Briens from Bolton back in the picture

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

To be honest I'd actually rather have McShane centre back, O'Shea left back and Finnan right. I think that's our best defence. I still definitely rate McShane at centre half with the right guy. As good as O'Shea has been under Trap he hasn't been error prone either. People say don't break up the centre of defence but if it means McShane is playing at right back I certainly would.

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We have good options at full-back.

McShane needs to go somewhere where he is played as a centre-half.

Until that happens, for me he should be nothing more than our 3rd or 4th centre-half.

O'Shea in my view is a natural centre-half who has been playing as a fullback (much like McShane at times).

The only difference is that O'Shea is far more talented technically, and has a far better physique for the position.

No way in hell would I move O'Shea to accomodate McShane.

Bring in Foley, Finnan, a fit Stephen Kelly, Nolan, or even Wilson at Pompey.

But don't put McShane on the field when Dunne and O'Shea are fit.

Even then I'd love to experiment with St. Ledger in a friendly.

McShane just scares the **** out of me.

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Originally Posted by Jicked

Ok I'll ask again, how many games have you seen St Ledger play, and how many have you seen Bruce play?

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Look I do not comment on a player I have not seen play.I don’t support any English teams but I watch TV and attend as many games as I can when Irish players are involved. I have followed Bruce’s career since he declared for Ireland and the same with St Ledger who has declared some time before Bruce's Irishness kicked in. I am a reasonable judge of a footballer’s ability and St Ledger is a better player than Bruce regardless of what Trap or you think.

I also think that Foley should have played instead of Kelly tonight again based on following each ones career.

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Originally Posted by FarBeag

Look I do not comment on a player I have not seen play.I don’t support any English teams but I watch TV and attend as many games as I can when Irish players are involved. I have followed Bruce’s career since he declared for Ireland and the same with St Ledger who has declared some time before Bruce's Irishness kicked in. I am a reasonable judge of a footballer’s ability and St Ledger is a better player than Bruce regardless of what Trap or you think.

I also think that Foley should have played instead of Kelly tonight again based on following each ones career.

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My God, you're a footballing genius!

Again I ask; how many times have you seen St Ledger play? Let's see, Preston played Liverpool in the Cup this year, you might have seen one of his goals if you were arsed getting up early to catch highlights on Sky, and maybe Peterborough had a Carling Cup tie televised once upon a time. And to think Trapatoni still wont pick him after you've done your homework. Stick to the Football Manager mate

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Originally Posted by Jicked

My God, you're a footballing genius!

Again I ask; how many times have you seen St Ledger play? Let's see, Preston played Liverpool in the Cup this year, you might have seen one of his goals if you were arsed getting up early to catch highlights on Sky, and maybe Peterborough had a Carling Cup tie televised once upon a time. And to think Trapatoni still wont pick him after you've done your homework. Stick to the Football Manager mate

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I think they've been on TV around 4 times. I've watched those games.

St. Ledger has been solid in all of those matches. Not really spectacular, but solid.

I have seen Bruce play a couple of times for Ipswich this year and his cameo in the Poland game.

St. Ledger is better technically from the little I've seen. Bruce looks nervous on the ball, and reminds me a bit of McShane generally.

What I will say is that Bruce looks very dangerous in the air everytime I see him play, particularly off set pieces.

Based on the little I've seen, I'd go with St. Ledger in a friendly or something to at least see what he can do.

I'm not advocating that we bring him in, and that he's undroppable, I just want Trap to have a look at him in training and perhaps in a friendly and then make his evaluation of whether or not he's good enough.

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Originally Posted by Jicked

My God, you're a footballing genius!

Again I ask; how many times have you seen St Ledger play? Let's see, Preston played Liverpool in the Cup this year, you might have seen one of his goals if you were arsed getting up early to catch highlights on Sky, and maybe Peterborough had a Carling Cup tie televised once upon a time. And to think Trapatoni still wont pick him after you've done your homework. Stick to the Football Manager mate

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Ok Mr know it all. How did you guess i have only seen him play twice? Are you spying on me? Yeah your right he did play a good game against the pool and the one game I saw him play at Peterborough he actually scored a goal. Maybe we could put him up front beside Doyle!

Do you even know where Preston is? And BTW how many times have you managed to push the button on the remote to see him play?

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Originally Posted by irishfan86

I think they've been on TV around 4 times. I've watched those games.

St. Ledger has been solid in all of those matches. Not really spectacular, but solid.

I have seen Bruce play a couple of times for Ipswich this year and his cameo in the Poland game.

St. Ledger is better technically from the little I've seen. Bruce looks nervous on the ball, and reminds me a bit of McShane generally.

What I will say is that Bruce looks very dangerous in the air everytime I see him play, particularly off set pieces.

Based on the little I've seen, I'd go with St. Ledger in a friendly or something to at least see what he can do.

I'm not advocating that we bring him in, and that he's undroppable, I just want Trap to have a look at him in training and perhaps in a friendly and then make his evaluation of whether or not he's good enough.

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Bingo. You've seen a little of him, and the snippets you've seen suggests he should get a chance. He will, but right now Trap wants to take a look at Bruce. And why shouldn't he? Let's not forget that Trapattoni gets to work with Bruce on the training ground for a week, and has seen a lot more of him then you or I have. Is it really that hard to believe that he sees something in Bruce that suggests he's a decent fourth choice CB? What little he's seen of Bruce in training and for the B side has impressed Trapattoni, and to be blunt, he knows his ****.
Trap went to see St Ledger play a few weeks ago so he's obviously keeping an eye on him and I'm sure he will select him over the next year at some stage. But saying that Trap doesn't know what he's doing, or that its a disgrace that Alex Bruce gets to be fourth choice CB instead of Sean St Ledger, based on seeing him play (on TV) 3 or 4 times, is a little bit ridiculous.

I never said that Trap doesn't know what he's doing. I just think he should be brought into a squad to have a closer look.

Trap seems to put a lot of emphasis on making his selections based on what he sees in training, moreso than a player's club form, so bring the lad in and have a look at him.

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

McShane is not a premier league centre half. He is too slow, too short, and too likely to switch off. Perhaps he can play full back as he seemed to do well for Hull on loan in that position at that level, but theat is as much as we can expect from him.

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Couldn't disagree more. He's definitely slow but many centre halves are. Too short? He's been motm against Koller, Davies, Berbatov, Santa Cruz and seems to dominate in the air against any target man. And I think he's constantly switched on (maybe too much ie. hyper) but he does often look a bit brainless with his positioning, movement and general style of play.

As for full back. Pace is certainly more important in that position. As is distribution. He's just not a full back.

He's been very successful at centre half in his career so far. Pity we don't see him there more often. Only for the injury that gave O'Shea his chance in that position he'd probably be playing there for us today but I'm certainly not complaining atm.

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Originally Posted by Jicked

My God, you're a footballing genius!

Again I ask; how many times have you seen St Ledger play? Let's see, Preston played Liverpool in the Cup this year, you might have seen one of his goals if you were arsed getting up early to catch highlights on Sky, and maybe Peterborough had a Carling Cup tie televised once upon a time. And to think Trapatoni still wont pick him after you've done your homework. Stick to the Football Manager mate

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Heres a few clips, of St Ledger playing for PNE click on 2.50, 5.50 and 7.20 for clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nF2XtaJ4N0

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Couldn't disagree more. He's definitely slow but many centre halves are. Too short? He's been motm against Koller, Davies, Berbatov, Santa Cruz and seems to dominate in the air against any target man. And I think he's constantly switched on (maybe too much ie. hyper) but he does often look a bit brainless with his positioning, movement and general style of play.

As for full back. Pace is certainly more important in that position. As is distribution. He's just not a full back.

He's been very successful at centre half in his career so far. Pity we don't see him there more often. Only for the injury that gave O'Shea his chance in that position he'd probably be playing there for us today but I'm certainly not complaining atm.

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Can't agree.

I can't remember McShane putting in a motm performance in any game. I remember a decent performance against the Czech Republic, but even then iirc correctly he was pushed off the ball easily for their goal. And Koller has never been the threat in the air his height would suggest

What i also remember is Everton 7-1 Sunderland when he put in a Bambi on ice performance. He is an accident waiting to happen, from the Titus Bramble school of defending. I am terrified every time he goes near the ball

I agree pace is important for a full back, though you can get away without it - Gary Neville or Denis Irwin were never the quickest. The reason i suggested he might have a future at full back is because he can do a bit less damage out there than in the middle. He will never be overlapping on the wing and getting crosses in, but at least he might get the chance to learn to defend.

Of all his failings at least positioning and reading the game can be learned, though he would need to get a shift on

He was immense against the Czechs. I think I'll have to put together a montage of that one because I have to repeat it so much. ;)

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

The reason i suggested he might have a future at full back is because he can do a bit less damage out there than in the middle.

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Then why not just drop him altogether? He can do no damage at all then!
BTW, I don't want to see him dropped, but right now I don't think he's going to be anything more than back up at centre half for the foreseeable future

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Then why not just drop him altogether? He can do no damage at all then!

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I probably wouldn't have him in the squad at the minute, depending on injuries, but he is Irish and i want him to prove me wrong. Its my opinion that the best way for him to do that is to get back to Hull in his club football, play right back for the rest of this season and next and learn his trade.

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Originally Posted by the doc

Heres a few clips, of St Ledger playing for PNE click on 2.50, 5.50 and 7.20 for clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nF2XtaJ4N0

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Jesus Mary and Joseph, have you actually just linked to a youtube video of a centre half making a few tackles/blocks to justify him being at the heart of our defence? I'm sorry, but i refuse to believe you're anything other than a troll.

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Originally Posted by Jicked

Jesus Mary and Joseph, have you actually just linked to a youtube video of a centre half making a few tackles/blocks to justify him being at the heart of our defence? I'm sorry, but i refuse to believe you're anything other than a troll.

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Didn't you notice the surging run against Burnley when he brought the ball out his own half and drove forward leaving 6 players in their wake to set up Preston's goal.

Or how about when he runs the whole length of the field to catch the WBA player, and makes a last ditch tackle to prevent a goalscoring attempt.

Don't think McShane or Bruce are capable of that! Neither have the pace or the technical ability.

But if all you have noticed from those clips are blocks and tackles which are part of the game I admit, then you are just as bad as Trapp in assessing players qualities.

St Ledger is a football playing CB, brought up watching Paul McGrath at Villa, we call him the new "Mark Lawrenson" here at Preston.

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Originally Posted by the doc

St Ledger is a football playing CB, brought up watching Paul McGrath at Villa, we call him the new "Mark Lawrenson" here at Preston.

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Totally agree Doc. I have seen St Ledger in the flesh six times and he is an obviously gifted and cultured footballing CB.I just wonder whether this is the problem. In the same way that Trapp doesn't want creative midfield players, maybe he doesn't want footballing centre backs either. It's just about possible that this squad playing in this style will limp through to the World Cup Finals, but they will be badly found out by the top end I think middle rank teams. Lets remember what happened against Poland (not to mention Cyprus) and that Georgia are ranked 122 in the world.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Totally agree Doc. I have seen St Ledger in the flesh six times and he is an obviously gifted and cultured footballing CB.I just wonder whether this is the problem. In the same way that Trapp doesn't want creative midfield players, maybe he doesn't want footballing centre backs either. It's just about possible that this squad playing in this style will limp through to the World Cup Finals, but they will be badly found out by the top end I think middle rank teams. Lets remember what happened against Poland (not to mention Cyprus) and that Georgia are ranked 122 in the world.

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I think you may a have something there, I agree too!

I was told that Paul Merson on Sky, said that St Ledger was outstanding against Norwich today.

So Trapp, the plot thickens..........

If Paul Merson thinks he is good he is never going to get a call up now. Thats his careef finished so.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Totally agree Doc. I have seen St Ledger in the flesh six times and he is an obviously gifted and cultured footballing CB.I just wonder whether this is the problem. In the same way that Trapp doesn't want creative midfield players, maybe he doesn't want footballing centre backs either. It's just about possible that this squad playing in this style will limp through to the World Cup Finals, but they will be badly found out by the top end I think middle rank teams. Lets remember what happened against Poland (not to mention Cyprus) and that Georgia are ranked 122 in the world.

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best ever start to a world cup qualifying campaign by any Irish squad so we must not be doing too badly

There is no doubt that he would provide excellent cover for Dunne & O'Shea.

I can't believe anyone would think otherwise. He certainly looks a safer & more competent player than McShane.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

best ever start to a world cup qualifying campaign by any Irish squad so we must not be doing too badly

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No we're not, result wise. There's bigger fish to fry though and that's where the problems may start. Let's hope not but I don't see the sense in ignoring potential problems. Some people seem to have a serious issue with others wanting to analyise the games and team/squad selections, instead of just roaring on the team blindly. I don't get it, this is a football forum after all.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

best ever start to a world cup qualifying campaign by any Irish squad so we must not be doing too badly

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Thanks in large part to Bulgaris's nightmare start. And our toughest games are still to come Italy & Bulgaria home and away and that game that nobody wants to think about Cyprus away...but if we beat Bulgaria in our next game we should hang on to 2nd place. I'll go along with the idea we play better aginst good teams so 3 more pts against Bulragia! And a draw would bo OK as well.

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Originally Posted by Qwerty

I'll go along with the idea we play better aginst good teams

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How we fared against the highest ranked seeds in our group post 2002:

Euro 04: Russia 4-2 Ireland
Ireland 1-2 Switzerland
Ireland 1-1 Russia
Switzerland 2-0 Ireland

WC 06: Switzerland 1-1 Ireland
France 0-0 Ireland
Ireland 0-1 France
Ireland 0-0 Switzerland

Euro 08: Germany 1-0 Ireland
Ireland 1-1 Czech Rep
Czech Rep 1-0 Ireland
Ireland 0-0 Germany

Pld 12 W 0 D 6 L 6 F-A 6-14

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Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

There is no doubt that he would provide excellent cover for Dunne & O'Shea.

I can't believe anyone would think otherwise. He certainly looks a safer & more competent player than McShane.

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I agree 100% but fear we may lose him, rumours of NI making approach asking about his availabilty.

Shame on your Trapp! This lad should of been tied to us, why the f..k couldn't you of at least given him a game in the friendlies.

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Originally Posted by the doc

I agree 100% but fear we may lose him, rumours of NI making approach asking about his availabilty.

Shame on your Trapp! This lad should of been tied to us, why the f..k couldn't you of at least given him a game in the friendlies.

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If he wants to go to play for a country that will probably not qualify for a major tournament in his career then let him. If he is good enough and is willing to wait then he will get a call up to the Republic squad. At the moment we are unbeaten in qualification and our first choice central defenders have been fit for each game so I dont see any necessity to change things at the moment

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

If he wants to go to play for a country that will probably not qualify for a major tournament in his career then let him. If he is good enough and is willing to wait then he will get a call up to the Republic squad. At the moment we are unbeaten in qualification and our first choice central defenders have been fit for each game so I dont see any necessity to change things at the moment

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So what does he do, keep playing outstanding for PNE, and keep being overlooked in favour or McShane and Bruce!

Even Eddie Nolan who is seen as cover at PNE, gets picked ahead of him!

I honest think he wants to play for the Republic, but he's not even getting a game in the "B" or friendly matches.

What would you do?

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Originally Posted by the doc

What would you do?

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Keep playing well and wait for my chance?

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Originally Posted by the doc

So what does he do, keep playing outstanding for PNE, and keep being overlooked in favour or McShane and Bruce!

Even Eddie Nolan who is seen as cover at PNE, gets picked ahead of him!

I honest think he wants to play for the Republic, but he's not even getting a game in the "B" or friendly matches.

What would you do?

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Eddie Nolan was picked as cover for right back not central defense.McShane was playing regularly in a Premiership team for most of this season and is experienced enough at this stage at international level that Trap feels(rightly or wrongly) that he is important to the squad. I have no defense of Bruce being picked because I think that he is a brutal player but I think the Noel Hunt situation applys here.... earlier this season Shane Long was being picked in Ireland squads while Hunt was being left out even though Hunt was ahead of him in the pecking order at Reading. Then for whatever game it was, there were a few injuries to strikers and Hunt got the call up and has been in the squad since. We havent had any injuries to any of out center halfs yet so Im sure when we do have injuries if Trap feels that St Ledger is good enough he will be called up as a replacement in that position.

As for what I would do..... I wouldnt care if it was Brazil that came calling, my country is the Republic of Ireland and I wouldnt want to play for anyone else.... even if that meant waiting a short while to get the chance

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Originally Posted by Qwerty

Thanks in large part to Bulgaris's nightmare start. And our toughest games are still to come Italy & Bulgaria home and away and that game that nobody wants to think about Cyprus away...but if we beat Bulgaria in our next game we should hang on to 2nd place. I'll go along with the idea we play better aginst good teams so 3 more pts against Bulragia! And a draw would bo OK as well.

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The now much-quoted "Best start ever to a WC qualifying campaign" has nothing to do with Bulgaria, we haven't even played them yet. However, I totally agree with your point that the majority of our toughest games are to come.
I don't know if any other WC campaign has started with the easier games first and Ireland failed to take advantage of this in the past or if this indeed was our easiest start? Anyway I think we are blessed that it has worked out like that this time because this team needed to be reworked and I'm happy that we avoided Italy and Bulgaria at the start, aswell as Georgia(Mainz) and Cyprus away. The way things are going for us in this group I wouldn't be surprised if we got the monkey off our backs of not beating a top team away in a competitive game for over 20 years.

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Originally Posted by the doc

So what does he do, keep playing outstanding for PNE, and keep being overlooked in favour or McShane and Bruce!

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At least he's playing football. :) Poor Darren O'Dea has hardly put a foot wrong at centre half for Celtic and still can't get his game for them.

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Originally Posted by the doc

I agree 100% but fear we may lose him, rumours of NI making approach asking about his availabilty.

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Don't know whether that's true or not, but I do know that since Worthington took over, his staff have implemented a thorough, professional scouting network throughout the UK, of the kind that was totally lacking previously.

As for St. Ledger's chances were he amenable to any such approach, I'd have to say that with Hughes, Evans, Duff, McAuley and Cathcart all now playing regularly in the top two English Divisions, and Craigan in the SPL (plus Baird on Fulham's bench and McCartney able to play CB), St. Ledger's preferred position is currently our strongest suit.

Mind you, if he can also play Right Back...

Get on the phone, Nigel!

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Don't know whether that's true or not, but I do know that since Worthington took over, his staff have implemented a thorough, professional scouting network throughout the UK, of the kind that was totally lacking previously.

As for St. Ledger's chances were he amenable to any such approach, I'd have to say that with Hughes, Evans, Duff, McAuley and Cathcart all now playing regularly in the top two English Divisions, and Craigan in the SPL (plus Baird on Fulham's bench and McCartney able to play CB), St. Ledger's preferred position is currently our strongest suit.

Mind you, if he can also play Right Back...

Get on the phone, Nigel!

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That's interesting EG - what that about a gentleman's agreement between the various British associations? :confused: Combined with the waffle and drivel you constantly posted in another thread about NI's selection policies ????

Anyways I'd disregard what "the doc" posts if I was you. He has his own little agenda there.