Thats what i said not what neil said.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarelyLegal
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Thats what i said not what neil said.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarelyLegal
I may have been guilty of not reading every post in the thread!!! sensible point though regardless of who said it first.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Not sure what u mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I agree that our position in the table only looks so healthy because we have only played the lower seeded teams until now. However, it's good to have the points on the board and get off to a good start. This puts all the pressure on Bulgaria to pick up a some wins in their next few games.
Also, if I was to choose the 5 easiest games on paper from the possible 10 games I would choose the first 4 games as they are plus Montenegro at home instead of Bulgaria. At the start of the campaign I thought this easier start was perfect because it would give Trap the time to get to know the players and let the team take its shape before the serious business of playing Bulgaria, Italy and Cyprus away. Stephen Reid getting injured has put a spanner in the works and some of Traps decisions have been strange but hopefully they can keep picking up points and start improving their performances because they will need it for these three key games.
Exactly. It's ideal having the easy matches first once you get the points on the board. A win against Georgia at home is vital. Anthing less than 10 points from the 12 available would be borderline crap. The next 5 matches are going to be hugely difficult with Bulgaria/Italy providing the opposition in 4 out of the 5 and Cyprus away is arguably more difficult than Bulgaria at home.
I think the only really questionable decision has been that to exclude Lee Carsley given the other ( lack of ) options available.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tothefloor
Besides that our table position is accuarate, we've won 2 and drawn 1. Bulgaria have drawn 3. They didn't beat Georgia we did ( thank you FAI :D ). They couldn't do any better against Montenegro that we did. They clearly settled for a point at home to Italy before the first kick. Bulgaria are in crisis mode and hopefully they'll keep their coach and contnue that crisis a bit longer.
We usually play better against better teams so I'm not afraid of Italy or Bulgaria. We have a real shot this time around.
Our away game to Cyprus could be out hardest...
Gibson came on for the last 15 minutes including injury time today, he was decent in fairness whenever he got the ball. Great to see he looks up and tries to hit a pass on the ground no matter what the distance.
I make good points too, listen to meQuote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Now Neil, Mr O'Shea did make the point first and it was outrageous behaviour on my part to suggest otherwise!!!;)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
do we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwerty
Last year, Andy Maradona was playing (poorly) for Ireland, under a poor manager. But, at least said manager went to watch his players' matches. It led to him getting sacked 2 years early, and finishing 10 points behind the qualifiers. This year, we're 3 points behind the group leaders with a game in hand.
Even Brazilians question the selections of the Brazil coach. Trappattoni has won everything in football, Andy Maradona has won f'all, whilst playing for the glamourous Charlton Athletic, the world beaters of Nottingham Forest, and is currently struggling to get into a mediocre Sunderland side. Go figure. :rolleyes:
I think we do, not many wins mind you but if Bulgaria lose points to bottom seeds then draws will probably suffice. It is early days, we have a 2 pt advantage over Bulgaria right now IMO, it's not much but they are not a happy outfit.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishultra
qwerty so lets say monty finish ahead of them and we finish second we still have a play-off to play. Can we win one? Well at least we got there I spose, but I find it hard to see us winning over two legs. At home we were always very solid and gave very little away but even that has changed over the last 2 years.
Stating the obvious but it would completely depend on who we get.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Our record is poor in the play-offs results-wise but apart from Holland all the rest were pretty close. It all depends on who we get and how the team develops between now and then, if there is a then. Trapp appears to have stopped the slide but now we have to improve and build on what we have done.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Remember the argument earlier in the thread that some people must not know anything about football?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
If you actually think that there hasn't been a big improvement then you've been watching a different team. We are way, way, way better than we were at any stage under Staunton, and now actually resemble a football side. At times quite a good one. At all times a hard to beat one.
Sometimes I think that the barstool army get used to seeing Gerrard score last minute screamers every week and think that if Whelan isn't pinging them in or making a 30 yard break then he must be rubbish.
Because a lad might have a different opinion to your all knowing self doesn't necessarily mean they don't watch any football and don't have a clue. Maybe some of us are being a bit harsh on Trapp but basically the jury's out for me. What he's done in the game up to now is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, that meant a lot when we made the appointment first but it rests there. It's all about gettin it right for Ireland now. If Staunton was judged on the Czech Rep and Slovakia home matches in the last campaign he would have looked to be doing a decent job, of course this would have been completely deluded but if you take Trapps first 2 qualifiers I'd say fair enough we're going in the right direction but if I was to just take the last 2, Cyprus in particular and Poland then I would find it difficult to see any improvement at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
I don't mind his system (at least we have a system now!), I'm just not sure he's using the right players in that system.
Jicked, is it not fair to agree and disagree with certain aspects of Trap's reign?
Do I have to like everything he's done?
I prefer to talk about individual decisions and evaluate those, as opposed to saying he's a messiah or the worst manager ever.
There are more positives than negatives at this point, but some of those negatives are very worrying indeed, such as:
-persisting with Gibson and Whelan as a partnership
-using Keogh as a winger
-excluding Andy Reid from the squad altogether (not convinced he should be automatic first choice, but there's no question he should be in the squad).
There are a few other problems I have, but they are minor and non-controversial.
Just because Trap is doing some things right, doesn't mean he's doing all things right.
What a crazy take on things that is though. Why is it irrelevant?! If we're to make it to the WC we'll need every drop of experience that a wily campaigner like him has accrued. He's the veteran of so many (succesfull) campaigns that he knows exactly what needs to be done to be a success. He's always worked this way, and it has always worked. Over 30 years. Its incredible that people would question him when he has proved time and time and time again that his methods work. I really don't believe that you think there was no improvement between a second string XI going down 3-2 to Poland, when you consider the depths we plummeted to against San Marino, Cyprus, Slovakia etcQuote:
Originally Posted by BarelyLegal
I too am a fan of his system, it's one that will get the best out of resources, making best use of our talented wide players and the guile of our two front men whilst giving our oft-troubled defence a little extra protection. Its common sense not to be pretending that we have Maradona in the middle of the park who can pull the strings for us, we've tried Reid in that role before and its failed consistently, why stick with it?Quote:
I don't mind his system (at least we have a system now!), I'm just not sure he's using the right players in that system.
Jicked, is it not fair to agree and disagree with certain aspects of Trap's reign?
Do I have to like everything he's done?
I prefer to talk about individual decisions and evaluate those, as opposed to saying he's a messiah or the worst manager ever.
There are more positives than negatives at this point, but some of those negatives are very worrying indeed, such as:
-persisting with Gibson and Whelan as a partnership
-using Keogh as a winger
-excluding Andy Reid from the squad altogether (not convinced he should be automatic first choice, but there's no question he should be in the squad).
There are a few other problems I have, but they are minor and non-controversial.
Just because Trap is doing some things right, doesn't mean he's doing all things right.
First off, using the word 'persists' is really tabloid/sensationalistic/Dunphy-esque talk. He played him against Cyprus (who others have thought we should have beat easily and so hardly a great test supposedly), and then picked him again in a friendly. Considering Trap has already used a few other players in the CM position Gibson now holds, how can you honestly say he is constantly persisting with it?!
I fail to see how its 'very worrying' that he persists with Gibson and Whelan as a partnership. Whelan has been good so far for us, and those belittling him as little more than a Stoke reserve are way off, he's done a fine job thus far. Gibson hasn't been as effective. But he's young, obviously has the qualities that Trap likes and thinks he can mould in to a player of some worth for us. Considering what I said above about his experience being key, its great that he's now ear marked Gibson to play a role in this team. It wont happen overnight, or over two games, but by the end of the campaign he could be quite a good player for us. What do we get from chopping and changing to a new in vogue player each week, when the alternatives are hardly offering a different class (and Trap is right about Carsley, there's absolutely no chance of him being around in 2010)
Then there's Andy Keogh as a winger. As said before, this guy is a veteran campaigner of 30 years. If he decides to look at a player for 60 minutes, in a friendly, and that player is realistically the third choice right sided midfielder, is it really worth getting our knickers in a twist? Come on, giving him an hour in a friendly to see if he can cover in the result of two injuries, before hauling him off, how is that anything other than a minor, uncontroversial and instantly forgettable selection.
It really worries me how the knives are out for Trap. We're absolutely blessed to have him, I can't think of a realistically better alternative. People moaning about the team, and second guessing Trap over trivial things such as whether or not Andy Keogh should be third choice winger or not just adds to a negative air around the whole squad, and the games/weeks they are over for.
Great post by the lad above me there. I do have to disagree with you about one thing though. Carsley is putting in ninety minutes for Birmingham every match and is their main player, from what I've read anyway. South Africa 2010 is really only what, nineteen months away? He won't lose his legs that fast. Certainly I can see your point about him not being around by 2010, but if we continue playing the young Gibson in the middle we won't get to the world cup finals anyway. I think Gibson is a good player, don't get me wrong, but he's not ready for this stage quite yet. He needs to go out on loan to a Championship team and get ninety minutes a week for an extended period of time before we start penciling him in for the starting central midfield role.
It worries me too that the knives are out for Trap already. In fairness to him, Steven Reid is done for the season and who else can he pick for the central midfield role? Andy Reid is a great great player but clearly not the defensive, tough tackling midfielder needed in Trap's system. Carsley, however, fits this role perfectly. If he were ten years younger he'd be in the starting line up, no question about it.
Jicked I meant in terms of results. The football, in terms of organisation and defence bar the poland game has improved immensely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
Of course we have faith in Trapp in relation to what he's done in the game up until now. I was only trying to say that'll me f*** all to me if he doesn't continue that with us. To be honest, if anybody else was making the decisions he's making there'd be a far bigger outrage. Nobody is looking for his head and everybody hopes he succeeds. We know the man has a system he thinks will benefit Ireland and that's fair enough but we are allowed to question some of the team selections, we could be proved wrong and I for one hope I am, I hope Whelan is a revelation in the rest of the campaign and Gibson blossoms into the player that Fergie and co thinks he's capable of.....it's a big price to pay though if they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
irishfan86 - you've pretty much summed up all of the points i've been too lazy to make and for this I doff my cap to you good sir....:)Quote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
Yep, good points IF86. I think McGeady may justify his place though.
Perhaps including McGeady in there was the wrong thing to do, as I do like him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I was just saying that those are 4 young players that Trap has faith in, so it's not as if he's playing an entire team of players near 30.
As I said before, I don't care about age, I just want the best players/team on the field, and that isn't happening right now.
Are the players being left out THAT much better than the ones that are in there? We've got a weak squad. He's only got so much to work with.
So far we've looked organised and been hard to beat. That's the basis any good team should be based off. The bells and whistles will come later...if needed at all.
I think it's obvious that Trap identifies certain attitudes in the player that he values.
Trap is putting a higher value on a players professional attitude and approach to the whole International set up. He has the right to select the players who he wants to work with.
No players has a right to a place by virtue of club form.
Trap keeps referring to these things since he took over, especially with Gibson, Whelan and Keogh and attitudes in general.
http://www.victorystore.com/signs/pr...rinking-12.gif
1) Whats he has done in the past is irrelevant because it has no bearing on our qualification hopes. He has won a lot, but he won it an awful long time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
2) He's always worked this way and it always worked?? I think if you ask any Italian about Trappatonis time in charge of them they'll dispute this.
3) Second string XI against Poland?? Except for Keane and McGeady both being injured this was Trappatonis first choice XI.
4) Whelan hsa been good for us, but as with any player who is not playing regularly he is going to be struggling for match fitness and match sharpness. World cup qualifiers are not the time to be catching up on these.
SuperLiga 04/05Quote:
Originally Posted by weldoninhio
Austrian Bundesliga 06/07
and Steve Finnan and Steven ReidQuote:
Originally Posted by weldoninhio
Benfica have only won the league once in the last 20 years and that was in Trap's only season there.
Superliga is on par with the Scottish league and Austrian League is like the Eircom league.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Steven Reid is out long term, so i was not counting him and McShane/Finnan are much of a muchness.
They came 2nd the two years before so it was hardly an amazing transformation. And he only lasted one year,Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
How many Scottish teams have won the Champions League?Quote:
Originally Posted by weldoninhio
Why didn't you say that so? Steven Reid is clearly in Trapattoni's preferred starting XIQuote:
Originally Posted by weldoninhio
McShane is a centre half playing at full back. Steve Finnan was one of the best full backs in the Premiership.Quote:
Originally Posted by weldoninhio
From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Trapattoni#CoachQuote:
Originally Posted by weldoninhio
Quote:
He resigned after the 2005 season, saying he wanted to be closer to his family (in the north of Italy)
Celtic have won it once and finished as runners-up once.
Steve Finnan was very clearly not one of the best full-backs in the Premiership. In his last three years at Liverpool he appeared in less than a third of their Premiership matches and in his last year made only eleven out of thirty eight possible appearances.
touchéQuote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
Premiership Team of the Year 2002: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFA_Tea...#Premiership_3Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
Also, he was injured for quite a bit of his final season at Fulham.Quote:
DF Steve Finnan Fulham
2002? Stop living in the past man! It is almost 2009!
Quote:
Originally Posted by weldoninhio
1) It is not irrelevant, at all. It's crazy to suggest that it is.
2) He doesn't have experience of winning a world cup, shock horror, but he does of how to go about a succesfull qualifying campaign.
3) Look at the side we had out in the second half when we were chasing the game.
4) But you admit Whelan has been good for us? So Trap should pick a lesser player, or one who goes against the system he wants us to play with, because he's played more games that season?
And I don't see how you can criticise his record, or belittle his achievements in Austria or Portugal.
1) How is anything that has happened in the past, with club teams, relevant to Irelands qualifying campaign this year??Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
2) He was effectively hounded out of the Italian job because of his teams dour, defensive and ineffective methods and his odd selection policies.
3) Call me crazy, but weren't we 2-0 down before any substitutions were made???
4) I never said that he should pick a lesser player, Carsley is a one example of a much better player, who is playing regularly, and would easily slot into the system.
If whelan and gibson were to get injured, what would be his plan B?? He doesn't go to games, so he can hardly say Player A is in good form with his club, or i liked the look of Player B in the games i saw him p;ay.
Your last point is ridiculous. Trap watches all pertinent games on DVD in Milan. Tell me, if you're saying Lee Carsley is playing well enough to be included despite his age, I presume you've been travelling to Birmingham week after week to see this?Quote:
Originally Posted by weldoninhio
You bemoan Trap for only watching players on tape, yet then complain about his team selection based on your superior knowledge from watching players on tape (and I'd love to hear how many games you've seen Carsley play this year). Plus Trap works hard with the players in training, has tried out many different players and combinations in friendlys and even goes to the hassle or organising a B international to take further look at them.
Can you really not see how his past is relevant? He's been through all of this before, he's been through every scenario possible. If we're chasing a game, closing one out, playing with 10 men, playing against 10 men, he has done it all before at the highest level and so will know exactly how we should adapt and play. That and his knowledge of working with different players means we should trust his judgement too.
I will call you crazy if you've the knives out for Trap on the back of a friendly defeat, with a weakened side and despite the fact we created more than enough chances to win the game.
Carsley is playing ninety minutes a match for the top team in the Championship. Good enough for me, as Glen Whelan and Darron Gibson haven't played a full league match for their clubs since opening day of the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
Sorry mate, that was not a weakened side. It was our best team available bar McGeady and Keane. Steven Reid and Steve Finnan probably won't play another match for us until September 2009. Keogh was in for McGeady and Folan in for Keane. McShane will likely be our starting right-back in place of Finnan for the next few qualifiers. Hardly a weakened team when you consider that our first choice eleven are almost never all fit at the same time. When was the last time Trap's first choice eleven have actually all started the same match? By that I mean the following team:
Given
Finnan-Dunne-O'Shea-Kilbane
McGeady-S.Reid-Whelan-Duff
Keane-Doyle
I doubt this team will take the field to start any match, competitive or not, at any time in the future. By this I mean you'll always have two or three injuries to deal with. Say Whelan or Gibson were to get injured? Who would go start in their place? Carsley fits Trap's system perfectly as an uncreative, tough-tackling physical presence in the middle of the park. Why discriminate against him on the basis of his age? He plays alot more first team football than Gibson, Welan, Steven Reid, Andy Reid, AND Keith Fahey combined.