Jee whiz HarpoJoyce you sound a bit like the Chinese Communist party :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpoJoyce
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Jee whiz HarpoJoyce you sound a bit like the Chinese Communist party :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpoJoyce
great post steve. full of hometruths.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
seandrog , your idea of better to have tried and fail than not try at all is what has put the league in the situation it is in. Spend money you hope to have, enjoy two seasons send your club to the wall and be happy with your lot. i would expect more from a real drogs fan.
IMO The only way forward is to set a say 50-55% salary cap based on the previous years actual gate reciepts and this to be reviewed if a clubs circumstances change eg relegation, promotion or reverting to part time/full time. People on here were saying this at the start of the last 2 seasons about the dependence on developers and sponsorship being reckless has come home to roost. This is what the fai done wrong but the clubs including sligo bohs cork galway and harps were a little bit envious and tried their own little bit of living beyond their means. Beware pats before you fall into this trap also.
Seriously, I feel sorry for Drogheda fans; the last two seasons have been glorious for them, and to have it disappear at a stroke is tough. And I can't really view the whole thing without the uneasy feeling - a fact alluded to gleefully by many on here - that we could be next. My hope is this; at this stage the only full time sides left next year will be us, Pat's and Derry; with a large pool of players chasing a smaller number of contracts, a certain sanity might return to wage levels.
I disagree. I think this is great for the league. The only way the mentality will change is if clubs are forced into serious change. Drogheda were seen as the next great hope when the directors were throwing cash about the place. Other clubs, including Bohs, wanted to keep up. Drogheda will probably spend 25-30% more on squad alone this year but will finsih miles behind us.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
IMO Bohs have a squad that will cost €1.6 million but is only really worth €1.1/1.2 million. The days of players costing clubs over €1250 a week (total cost to club) has to come to an end if full time football is to be made viable.
I dont know about other club's income but I do know a bit about the income at Bohs and I think a sustainable full time setup can be achieved if it is done right and the club is run properly.
The only way full time football can survive in this country is if clubs are run by people who exist in reality and not in some fantasy football bubble.
Until we accept that there simply is not enough people in ireland willing to show up to football each week to justify a professional league - End of.
Even if the standard improved - say it is mid League 1 or top League 2 at present - even if it improved to mid championship, there is not enough interest in soccer to justify the money
Sorry but outside of the fans, we are a nation of Match of the Day soccer fans
If only there was some organised fans forum or meeting where we could express this......
The LOI title comes at a cost!
here bohs tid - are you for real? Bohs current money is comning off the back of the prtoperty deal for dalyers - your crowds don't sustain your wage bill (which is admittedly probably less than drogs bill). Have you seen the direction of property prices? have you seen the tightening of credit? Have you ever heard of the word recession - there's as much chance of the Dalyer deal coming to fruition as there is of the Drogs new Stadium being built at this stage.
Ireland can support a full time league - but we need facilities, more quality players and then the fans will come - drogs tried put team then stadium in place. Planners stopped it - directors couldn't afford to cover overflows anymore. End of!
When a club goes bust not only does it drag the average level down of the entire league it's also demoralising for everyone in the LoI (except P Stu and a few others)
btw someone said Drogheda's lack of success was down to it being a small town - it's been second to dundalk or first in terms of population size in Ireland for most of the existence of the league with only Dublin Cork Limerick Galway and Waterford bigger again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by all drogged up
Read what I said again. I said I think Bohs can sustain a wage bill of approx €1.1/€1.2 million if the club was run properly. I am not including any money from the sale of Dalymount in this.
If you assume our wage bill is slightly higher then it was last year, thats a drop of approx €400k. If the club was run more efficiently and the marketing of games was taken seriously we could increase our income significantly too.
Our crowds dont sustain our wage bill, I never said they did. I also know that currently we are surviving off the back of the sale of the ground.
The problem with investors in football clubs is once they get bored and stop signing the cheques to prop the whole thing up the clubs are fukk'd
BTID your current wage bill is "allegedly" €2.3m and that doesnt include your management,Coaching and Admin wages. Derry will not be fulltime next season and pats are looking at unsustainable losses for this year as well.
The bubble has well and truly burst for el players and never mind a wage cap id say there is going to be a wages ceiling put in for next season and any club that breaks it well be turfed out immediately. Can see one league for next 4/5 years until this mess is sorted.
Just out of interest, how long have you been following DUFC? I can't believe that any fan would take the line that its better not to have their club in existance. Hope its just disappointment on your part, it would be a sad day for DUFC to cease to exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanDrog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duffman
Damn right, snap the f*ck out of it Sean
Pats are well up on budgetted income.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufct
Who says our wage bill is 2.3 million?Quote:
Originally Posted by gufct
When Fenlon took over, he signed Byrne and Konopka. Brennan and Oman had already been signed and he wasnt allowed to sign anybody else until he offloaded players. I'd be amazed if our wage bill is anywhere near 2.3 million.
Well Harpel Singh is on 2000 a week and he's only a reserve
I seriously doubt that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knappagh Red
Absurd, factually inaccurate, untrue and actually rather insulting.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve;
[U
Don't worry about it. Steve has a hard on for complaining about "towns". He rubbishes every non city team at every availabel oppurtunity. Conveniently forgetting about the likes of Dundalk and Athlone.
Derry City are remaining full time next season.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufct
Damn right! Drogheda is bigger than some of the other towns he mentioned anyway - D*ndalk, Athlone, Sligo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightstory
Drogheda have been very unlucky for years and years on the pitch, we've gotten to plenty of cup finals and semi finals over the years. Always made a balls of it though!
Says who?Quote:
Originally Posted by gufct
this is the line that has been coming out of the Brandywell for the past three months.
I don't understand why people keep saying that its good for the league that clubs go bust? I can see the point of view of over spending on wages however what's wrong with a bit of vision?
I mean, it's not like the Drogs were just spending money on wages only to remain in Utd Park forever. There was a plan there and if it didn't happen then we would end up going back to the way were were before.
I don't see why clubs spending money on wages and to develop a stadium is anything bad. Imagine if this happened, and it nearly did, only for the planning process f*cking it up we'd be preparing to play in a new stadium next season. Just imagine what this would have done to the league if it happened as it would have given the other clubs a massive boost to go out there and develop their own project.
The league needs a major re-think, I do agree, however people saying that this is good for the league are in the need of a reality check. Progress for this league doesn't mean dropping to the level of UCD with no vision or ambition and happy to plough along saying I told you so to other clubs.
From who? Certainly not the manager and the board (who are the one's who would know if we were) and who signed 3 players on full time contracts for the next 2 years. The players being Dennehy, Farren and McGlynn who either signed or resigned full time contracts in the last few weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufct
gufct is correct as far as I'm aware. Or if not, I assume there'd be no problems having that cheque you owe us? Derry can't afford full-time. They may have a couple of full-time players, but a full-time squad is beyond youz it seems.
Balls to the highlighted piece, as for the other bit, I know of very few companies that pay outstanding bills on their due date.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
For the record I thought I read that Derry were going part time next year (earlier this season). I've been wrong before
And you're wrong again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Easy tiger, you've made your point...
Good news travels fast:rolleyes:
http://www.teamtalk.com/football/sto...289931,00.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drogman.
Vision is putting long term structures in place to sustain and develop a football club. Not one eircom league club has ever demonstrated anything other then a boom/bust type plan.
Drogheda's plan was a 3-4 year plan. If it didnt work there was no other option but to go back to how it was.
check the last census - dundalk is a bigger town than drogheda population wise anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by WindmillWarrior
To my mind drogheda is just a satellite town from dublin.
Founded 1963 and renamed 1975
Domestic Honours
League Of Ireland Champions 2007, Runner Up 1982/83
League Of Ireland 1st Division Champions 1988/89, 90/91, 98/99, 01/02, Runner Up 1994/95, 1996/97
FAI Cup Winners 2005, Runner Up 1971, 1976
League Cup Winners 1983/84
League Of Ireland Shield Winners 1991
Entered League 1963
Compare this to your so called small towns, windmill.
Sligo
Formed 1928
League Champions: 1937, 1977
League Runners-up: 1939, 1951
First Division Champions: 1994, 2005
First Division Runners-up: 1986, 1990
F.A.I. Cup Winners: 1983, 1994
F.A.I. Cup Runners-up: 1939, 1940, 1970, 1978, 1981
League Cup Winners: 1998
League Cup Runners-up: 1976, 1977, 1996
Shield Winners: 1994
Shield Runners-up: 1940
Dundalk
Formed 1930
League Champions:(1932-33, 1962-63, 1966-67, 1975-76, 1978-79, 1981-82, 1987-88, 1990-91, 1994-95)
First Division Champions:1 (2000-01)
FAI Cup Winners:9 (1942, 1949, 1952, 1958, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1988, 2002)
League Cup Winners:4 (1977-78, 1980-81, 1986-87, 1989-90)
Athlone
Founded 1887
FAI Premier Division Titles: 2 1980-81, 1982-83
FAI First Division League Titles: 1 1987-1988
FAI Cup: 1 1924
League Cups: 3 1979-80, 1981-82, 1982-83
wise up and smell the coffee
Dodge
Here's the statement that was made by our chairman in August, were the rumour mongers such as yourself, decided that Derry City were going part time.
It' long and will have to be posted in 2 halves, but i'll post it all just incase I'm accused of editing.
Part 1
Statement from Club Chairman
Pat McDaid looks forward
Friday 01 August 2008
Chairman Pat McDaid looks back at his first few months in charge and addresses some of the challenges ahead for the club
It's now just coming on 8 months since I became chairman of this great club and it's been a very interesting and challenging time off the field of play, with a lot of changes in personnel and gradual developments within the club itself. Recently Eamon Lynch has been added to the board of directors as financial controller, which now takes our numbers back to 6 following the resignation earlier in the year of Michael Burns. Michael was a fantastic servant to the club and is badly missed and we all wish him well and he'll no doubt be involved again at some stage when he's feeling better. This now means Stephen Mc Carron, Joe W Doherty, Franky Houston, Peter Leonard, Eamon Lynch and myself make up the current board of Derry City.
In total this now means we have 5 new directors, including myself, along with a new General Manager in Noel Martin who was formerly the CPO within the club, so it's been a steep learning curve for us all as we deal with the increasing difficulties and demands being placed on League of Ireland clubs. Peter Leonard is now the only remaining director from last years board so it's been quite a sea change off the field in much the same way as it has been on the field with a new manager, back room team and players being brought in. So overall it's very much fresh faces involved at the club this year.
It's very evident to me, more so than it ever was prior to becoming chairman, that we are a very strong community based club with so many volunteers giving up their own time and energy to work on behalf of Derry City. At the risk of sounding patronising and that's certainly not my intention, one thing is for sure - without the volunteers within our club it simply wouldn't be here. It's as simple as that and the countless hours of work that's put into this club by these volunteers is absolutely invaluable and certainly very much appreciated by us all
This is where a huge question of our club must however now be asked, given the current economic climate, because being a community based club is without doubt our biggest strength, but it is also our greatest challenge!
We are now competing in a league which has multi millionaire investors providing significant funds for clubs in the South, which is making it increasingly difficult for us to attract certain calibre of players to come and play here. I think the real danger for clubs like ours, which feel we should be competing with these clubs, is to try and compete with them off the field, as this is something we simply can't do without similar investment.
However, and this is the big question, even if we had the opportunity to avail of similar investment the question is would we want it?
The dangerous road some of these clubs are going down is one which I feel can lead to drastic outcomes and is certainly not a road I'm prepared to take our club down. How long will these investors be prepared to invest huge sums of money into clubs? The people investing the huge sums of money obviously have affection for the clubs concerned or feel a sense of 'putting something back' but at the same time they didn't accrue their great wealth by being sentimental and at some stage they must surely be faced with the question of when to stop putting millions into these clubs. Where then will these clubs be left, because they certainly will not have the income streams to support their budgets?
At Derry City we have a club which is embedded into the community it serves and this is something we must develop even further. However, we must also start developing other aspects within the club and not be totally dependant upon the work of our volunteers, which as stated already is one of the main reasons our club is currently in existence and whilst we absolutely need the continued support of our volunteers we also need to start helping ourselves a little more and taking some of the pressure off these club workers, who have for years ensured the club had the finances required to sustain itself.
It's a startling fact that less than 5% of our turnover last year was spent on employees who are responsible for the actual day to day running and management of the club - this would not happen in any other business anywhere in the world!
Now we must accept that football is a unique business compared to most others but this is a ratio we can't allow to continue if we are to develop into a sustainable full time club over the long term. This isn't a criticism of previous administrations but sadly a reflection of how the game in Ireland is being run, where club workers are simply there to generate wages and basically little else!
This can't continue within the game here in Ireland and certainly won't continue at our club whilst I'm chairman and the current board of directors are in place.
We need to start investing significant monies into areas throughout the club such as commercial and merchandising but these investments will not reap immediate benefits, as like everything else it's important to get them right and develop them over a reasonable time frame to get the maximum benefit from them. This is why our fundraising arms and attendances at the games are so vital to help ensure we maintain the exciting team we currently have and make gradual improvements to it
No one wants to see another Shelbourne, who lets face it couldn't really have been more successful on the pitch: 3 league titles out of 4, cup successes, regular victories in Europe and indeed a run in Europe which took them to within half an hour of the group stages of the Champions League. It simply doesn't get much better from a playing point of view within the League of Ireland, but sadly due to crippling wage bills, the club almost folded completely and were relegated as league champions into the first division where they currently remain.
To me this all comes back to the FAI's ridiculous fudging of the wage cap issue. The moment the FAI accepted non legally binding "committments" they set the league up for these type of crash and burns, and the associated negative headlines.
This is what the wage cap, licencing and FAI control was supposed to solve, instead they are facilitating it!
Personally I think now is the time for the FAI to insist on the 65% wage cap based on club generated funds, but if clubs insist on breaching the 65% wage cap on the basis of donations, they should have to lodge a bond with the league to cover the wages for the remainder of the contracts (the money could be released to the clubs on a week to week basis as the contracts run - it'd only take bloody standing orders)
GTF! I said I thought I read it somewhere, nothign else. I also indicated I might be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krstic
Rumour mongering :rolleyes:
Part 2
This is why we as a club need to be prudent with club finances and whilst everyone, myself included, would love nothing more than to see our team being all conquering on the pitch winning league championships and cups and competing regularly in Europe, we can only do this if we are financially capable of such achievements. We can not allow ourselves to be drawn into the trap that a lot of clubs have done and spend money in the pursuit of glory unless we can financially cope with the consequences of not succeeding
People keep telling me Derry City are a 'big club' and should be winning trophies on a regular basis but what is this based on? We have won 3 league titles in 80 years of trying. That's not results that a 'big club' would have. Now in my own heart there isn't a bigger club in Ireland than Derry City but the facts are that we are not a 'big club' - not yet - but we can be - we can become the biggest and most successful club on this Island, north or south, if we plan for it and have the patience to see that plan implemented and delivered.
We need to avoid the boom and bust tactics which are being employed at several clubs at the minute and concentrate on ourselves in the sure knowledge that what we are doing will deliver the club we know we can become and let the other clubs do whatever they feel they should be doing with these investors and sit back and watch to see what develops, without putting the very future of our own club at stake - which is more important than anything to me and I'm sure to the vast majority of our supporters as well.
My own family now has 4 generations who have supported this club, as I'm sure many other families can testify to as well and it's more important to everyone associated with Derry City that this club is viable and still here in 10 years time, rather than pursue glory over the next couple of years and put that at risk!
We have an awful long way to go, in my opinion, if we are to have a full time sustainable club for the long term. The challenges facing our club in the current economic climate are huge and the only way we can become a club which regularly competes for honours at the top level of the game here is to have a plan - a vision for the clubs future - one which is sensible and realistic
This is what we as a club must do and me as a chairman with my fellow directors must implement and ensure is carried out. We need everyone within the club pulling in the same direction, believing in the plan and being proud to be part of it, in the sure knowledge and confidence that we are doing what's best for the club and its future.
Implementing this plan will not be easy, it may mean reductions in playing budgets, it may mean smaller squads, less high profile signings and it may possibly mean we aren't challenging for the league championship over the next few years, but if that's what it means then unfortunately it's a consequence of the long term benefits which this plan will bring. I'm not saying competing for a league title is impossible, but we certainly can't compete for it by trying to buy it, which is what several other clubs are now doing. We have to do it by working harder than any other club and developing the structures around the club which will support us in the long term and gradually enable more monies to be spent on the first team.
It's very straight forward - we simply must live within our means and terms like ‘speculate to accumulate' are very dangerous words when it comes to football clubs and in particular a club with as long a history and tradition like our own. Our current first team budget is the highest the club has ever had - yet it's dwarfed with the other clubs in the South who are attempting to buy the league title and we won't be dragged further into the spiralling increases witnessed across the league over the last few years.
There needs to be a reality check within the league and more importantly from my view point within our own club. Our manager Stephen Kenny can only work with what he's provided with - he can't work miracles and nor can we as a board. We are working very hard to provide a team this city can be proud of and can compete for honours but we need everyone on board - supporters, sponsors and the business community throughout the city must support us if we are to be successful.
We certainly have the support of a lot of loyal and generous business people already but we need more and I would appeal to the business community to get on board and help us provide a team the city can be proud of. Advertising with Derry City is a proven method to promote your business and we only have to look at our main sponsor Meteor to testify to this. Meteor are a firm based in Tyrone whose owner isn't even a soccer man but he sees the benefit of association with a large community based club and is proud to be connected with the club from a marketing point of view and I see no reason why many other local businesses in the town can't benefit themselves from the
same association. We have numerous packages available to suit every budget and would be delighted to welcome new businesses on board or previous sponsors back
Despite opinions throughout the town that we can boast average attendances of between 3,000 - 4,000 at home games the reality is our average attendance this year is just slightly over 2,000 which although is a high figure compared to a lot of other clubs isn't high enough to support the team and the manager financially on its own. Our attendance throughout the season only counts for between 25% - 30% of our required income, which leaves an awful big gap to be filled between fundraising, commercial activities and prize monies. So for those attending keep coming and 'bring a friend' if you can. Every bum on a seat is a huge help to club finances
This is where the volunteers of our club contribute significantly to the income streams and why we must all support the projects they undertake and for those who have done - a big thank you and for those not yet supporting the projects I would ask you if your in a position to do so then please sign up to the dream draw, monthly draw, lotto, buy a program or half time draw ticket - every contribution helps and is absolutely vital to us as a club.
Part 3
Just to give one example of how powerful a community supported project can be: Several people have said to me they could join the monthly draw but they felt £10 per month would have little if any impact upon the club. Now as stated we're averaging just over 2,000 supporters at our games this season which if everyone was signed up to this £10 per month draw it would provide us with £240,000 per year - significant monies which we could build into our budget and with the power of numbers it also means we aren't dependent on a single big investor but rather have thousands of small contributors which makes the club much more stable - so if your not in the monthly draw already please sign up to it. Not only are you making a contribution to the club to help us provide an exciting team but you also in with the chance to win significant money!
We must, as stated previously, also start restructuring certain things within the club, focusing on our commercial activities, making the merchandising arm of our club much stronger in order to reduce the reliance on these projects and prize monies, as nothing is guaranteed especially in the current economic climate we're facing up to. However, this isn't an overnight fix and we obviously have costs to meet whilst they are being improved which is why we need community support
We will be investing club funds into these areas which, in the lack of major increases to income streams may initially lead to lower budgets being available for the first team squad and the result of that may well be a team which possibly can't make a serious challenge for a league title in the coming seasons, but if that's what it means then that's what it means, because if we don't implement this plan then our club will be overly dependant upon success to sustain itself and that is simply too high risk of a strategy to continue with. As I said already competing for a league title is certainly not beyond us but we simply can't do it by trying to buy it
Our plan will see gradual increases into the playing budget as the club can afford it but not to the detriment of other aspects within the club, which are essential to sustaining any increases. This is the key to everything - being able to sustain the increases. In recent years our team has been competing favourably and moved from part time to full time. The financial rewards were such that the team budget was increased considerably over that period of time. Last year we had a disappointing season and as a result income streams this year are seriously down on those available from the previous couple of seasons, making it difficult to sustain a full time team, especially given the current recession we are now in.
This is the difficulty we are attempting to address with our plan which would see serious improvements off the field of play that would potentially be capable of overcoming reduced income streams from on the field results, or at least helping to bridge the gap. Obviously what happens on the field will always have a big effect on the balance sheet but this plan is set up to reduce the reliance on having to be successful on the field every season, as no club can achieve that. We need to increase our income streams from off field activities substantially to reduce the current over reliance on success
Owning our own stadium is an absolute priority for our club to develop and this is being pursued vigorously by Brandywell Properties at the moment with real potential of finally resolving this issue. Having our own stadium will provide us with an asset we can use to benefit the club 7 days per week every week of the year, whereas currently the stadium only produces income for the club on match nights. It will also provide us with a stadium to be proud of and help attract more people through the gates which will offcourse help the club finances long term as well
The club could also potentially be competing in some form of an All Ireland League within the next 3-5 years and certainly if that's to be the case then we need to be financially sustainable and be capable of producing a full time team on the field to compete for honours within it on a regular basis. The current proposals for an All Ireland League have generated much debate and whilst I think an All Ireland League is an inevitability I don't feel it will be achieved with the current plans, certainly not within the time frame proposed, but I do feel it will come within the next 3-5 years and we must be ready to take our place in it and be capable of competing favourably - hopefully in our new stadium!
So overall there have been a lot of changes within the club in a short period of time and we're facing up to huge challenges both on and off the field. It's certainly not 'doom and gloom' like certain people have been claiming and anyone who knows me will know that I'm always very positive about everything, especially Derry City which I feel passionately about. However, we do need to take stock and apply a little reality to where we as a club are going, which if we all pull together could see us achieve success never witnessed at this club before. Now more than ever we need the entire community - both general public and the business community to stand up and back us, as we attempt to make Derry City the biggest and best football club in this country!
Regards
Pat Mc Daid
Chairman
Derry City
Could you not have just posted a bloody link instead of cluttering the forum?
Yes Dodge rumour mongering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
'I read this'
'I heard that'
'Someone told me'
All rumour mongering Dodge and as your rumour mongering is actually online, it's hard to defend yourself with a silly smilie.:rolleyes:
Sorry, i genuinely don't know how to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Not defending myself. I've nothing to defend.
Anyway, here's the thread I read (oooh look at me rumour mongering...)
Didn't read it past the first few posts until now. Didn't bother as it isn't that big a deal for me. Still not, I was just trying to show that where others may have got the same idea
Luckily it posts a link to that statement. Any reason you couldn't have? Glad to see another club isn't on the rocks