In saying the league has no future do you mean that the league will not be around at some stage in the near future?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenforever
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In saying the league has no future do you mean that the league will not be around at some stage in the near future?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenforever
Quote:
Originally Posted by paudie
The league will be around, but in no better shape, and with no biiger attendances or bigger successes in Europe if the status quo is mantained.
I mean find me one manager that truly believes his club could qualify for the group stages of the champions league under the current set up.
It is not a point of attributing blame for failure, but an acceptance of reality and looking at ways of actually bringing top class club football to Ireland.
Just wondering GF, seeing as you don't support eL football, what actually would make you attend local eL games?
eh, none, obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenforever
No LOI club is anywhere near that standard and I don't think anyone here seriously thinks there is.
LOI supporters aren't looking for miracles, just for the League and its clubs to be as good as they can on and off the pitch.
IMO the league has improved in as a whole over the last 5 years and hopefully it will continue to do so. If a club sneaks into the group stages of the UEFA Cup all the better.
We'd also like to see the League getting a fair crack of the whip from the media in this country.
But do you want to see Irish club football ever compete in Europe at the top levelQuote:
Originally Posted by paudie
IMO the league now is no better than in the late 70s when Rovers beat apolla nicosia in the 1st round of the cup winners cup before being beaten by Banik ostrava in the 2nd round, with a good crowd at milltown.Quote:
LOI supporters aren't looking for miracles, just for the League and its clubs to be as good as they can on and off the pitch.
IMO the league has improved in as a whole over the last 5 years and hopefully it will continue to do so. If a club sneaks into the group stages of the UEFA Cup all the better..
Rovers then had Giles, Treacy, Beglin, Pierce O'Leary, Campbell and Buckley among others get full caps while playing for the hoops.
I'd agre with you but also point out that in relation to the attendances at matches they do probably get prett fair coverage. The TV coverage is pro rata of attendances probably far better than both Rugby and GAA enjoy, and this is down to EL coverage being tied into international match rights.Quote:
We'd also like to see the League getting a fair crack of the whip from the media in this country.
I would still like to see an Irish club being able to compete at European level but don't ever expect to unless the league is drastically reformed.
Interestingly, in Saturday’s Irish Times Sports Section, there are two stories on draws for the next round of the EUEFA Cup and Champions’ League. The more prominent one on the front page (lifted from the Guardian) is concerned with the British clubs. Inside, there is a seperate piece on St Pat’s and Drogheda’s involvement. Very telling, I think. The Eircom League and the Premiership are basically treated as if they are representative of two DIFFERENT sports with no connection to each other. Domestic football is regarded as minority sport akin to ten pin bowling or similar. This is not a distinction which the Irish Times would have made twenty or more years ago, when our own league featured in its sports pages just as prominently as UK football.
It’s like a kind of apartheid exists.
Personally I hope that the Irish public will some day cease to see a divide between the two, and have the imagination to support their own teams. A Dublin club in the Champions’ League is more than viable. (As I’ve said before, if cities like Eindhoven, Valencia, Bruges etc. can have teams in the group stages, so can Dublin). I really hope that people can wake up to this fact and that we’ll see an Irish club in the group stages of the CL, even if it takes ten or fifteen years. Otherwise supporting the domestic game would be a grim and depressing prospect indeed. Things CAN change. It may need a kick start of investment from a willing entreprenaeur, or an All-Ireland League, but it doesn’t HAVE to be like this.
I'd like to see the league given some respect in the media. Getting players names or even teams names :eek: wrong is something basic that should not happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenforever
I do actually go to EL games from time to time, more as a neutral than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesThompson
I used to have a season ticket for Milltown in the 70s and 80s and more recently when the kids were growing up they were shels fans and we were season ticket holders for a number of years.
What would get me going week in week out is a higher standard.
The standards today are IMO lower than they were in the late 70s and the crowds are also lower, probably due to lack of investment in infrastructure over the years and the obvious competition of Sky etc.
As I've pointed out on other threads the only way I believe we will attract crowds approaching 30K is if we have just 3 or 4 senior clubs as in the Rugby set up.
If people support an All Ireland league, why not go for an Atlantic League, with say 8 countries providing on average 3 clubs per country.
Such a league could be played mid week with 2 divisions of 12 clubs and be mixed in with the individual national leagues. Such a league would have 22 matches per season and could be played between October and May.
You would be attracting the clubs in the 2nd and 3rd qualifying rounds of the champions league, and giving playing regularly at this level a club would have the chance to progress into the group stages of the champions league over time. Just maybe Irish clubs competing in such a league might break the 10K barrier for average attendances and therefore be in a postition to compete financially on a bigger stage.
The flaw in this argument is that Rugby is not a truly 'global' game, and can't be compared to football. It is played by English-speaking former colonies and a smattering of non-English speaking countries. Ireland's provinces needed the Welsh and Scottish regions to save them having to play each other 6 times a season in order to make a league. Even still, the Magners league has nowhere near the respect and 'awe' factor of the Heineken Cup, and Leinster routinely struggle to fill the RDS for matches against the Scarlets and Glasgow.Quote:
the only way I believe we will attract crowds approaching 30K is if we have just 3 or 4 senior clubs as in the Rugby set up.
Football, on the other hand, is a truly global game. Every country in the world has its own domestic league, at whatever standard it may be. Who exactly would we go into 'partnership' with? Scotland would hardly go for it. Wales? Their league would drag ours down. The Faroe Islands? Pull the other one.
He said the ole ole crowd ..... and i fully agree with him. People who invest time, money and emotion into the domestic game at what ever level so get priority, ahead of block bookers. People who by just being there all year round make up the sum total of the domestic game should be top of the queue and always get preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenforever
Damn right thats the way it should be ..... sod the rest of them, let them ask their English clubs for tickets.
He said the ole ole crowd ..... and i fully agree with him. People who invest time, money and emotion into the domestic game at what ever level so get priority, ahead of block bookers. People who by just being there all year round make up the sum total of the domestic game should be top of the queue and always get preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenforever
Damn right thats the way it should be ..... sod the rest of them, let them ask their English clubs for tickets.
And there should be no guilt or fear or indecision in this either. Sort out your own first and the rest get the remainder, end of story.
The RDS holds about 20K, every El club would love to have that problem of struggling to fill for the less glamorous games.Quote:
Originally Posted by brianw82
As I suggested the countries that are currently making the 2nd or 3rd qualifying round of the champions league maybe. Cardiff in a league may just bring a large travelling support for a new tournament. While no guarantee of success, the one guaranteed thing is the current system is not generating successful Irish Clubs.Quote:
Football, on the other hand, is a truly global game. Every country in the world has its own domestic league, at whatever standard it may be. Who exactly would we go into 'partnership' with? Scotland would hardly go for it. Wales? Their league would drag ours down. The Faroe Islands? Pull the other one ..
have you any suggestions??
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Originally Posted by A face
So your idea to improve attendances at EL games is to stop the Ole Ole brigade from getting International tickets for the odd game that you may want to go to.
I don't know anyone actively involved in football that cant get tickets for home games. Yes for the very odd game once every two or three years there may be surplus demand, in the meantime your Ole Ole brigade are buying their tickets for ALL matches and therefore providing subsidies to your beloved EL.
In case you do not know the EL gets a huge percentage of FAI funds, far over what it would be entitled to base on the numbers attending matches. Fact more kids play underage soccer every week in Dublin than the El attracts in paying supporters. On this basis the DDSL is entitled to a biiger share of the FAI kitty than the EL. Those funds are mainly generated from the Ole Ole brigade you refer to. Off course from your posts you would be happy to be rid of them and thier money and settle for a league that is never going to be a force in Europe.
Greenforever, I don't think much, if any, of what you're saying stacks up at all. So you think people who can't be bothered going to see, for example, Pats v Rovers will swarm along in their thousands to see Pats (or perhaps a brand new "Dublin United") v Cardiff ? Why ? You do realise that this proposal for a shiny new league exists nowhere outside your own head don't you ? Your whole reasoning here is flawed beyond belief. You say you want an Irish club to compete at the top level, are you talking seriously about competing with Man U and Real Madrid ? Is that what it would take to get you to support a local team ?
The only thing I can say is you'll have a bloody long wait. There is absolutley no chance in hell of an Irish club reaching that level with the way European football is currently structured. And they ain't going to change football europe wide just to give the poor paddies the "quality" football we're allegedly crying out for. Even if this Atlantic League as envisaged by you, were to happen it won't get an Irish team into the level your talking about. You seem to be suggesting that teams would qualify from that league into the Champions League, I'm not sure how you see that happening. I'm not saying I'd neccessarily be opposed to such a league, if the local league was to be maintained, but really it's fantasy stuff. As for support and crowds, frankly I have a hard time believing anyone who says the reason they don't go and support a local team is because the standard is poor. I just don't buy it.
It takes a certain amount of effort to go and supprt a team week in and week out and as far as I can see people genuinely can't be bothered and feel they have better things to do. That's fine, it's their perogative, but don't insult our intelligance with the "quality" argument. I take it from your posts that you still go to Ireland matches ? WHy, when the results have been so poor lately. Or don't you demands similarly high standars from the Ireland team ? I also don't buy your argument that it was a better standard in the league 30 years ago, when just about all players would have been part time, to my knowledge.
I'm with Dodge really (and with 99% of football supporters everywhere I believe.) I want to support my team. I want then to do the best they possibly can, to compete at as high a level as they possibly can. If we want to improve the overall state of club football in Ireland then I would suggest that fostering that attitude among as many people in this country with an interest in football as we can is not a bad place to start. It's not glamorous, or anything to do with fantasy leagues, or gates of 80,000 at Croke Park to play Man U in a Champions League Semi Final, but at least it's grounded in reality.
Yes, it is only a pie in the sky idea, but there again so was the world cup back in 1930. What I did say previously was if an All Ireland league was sanctioned by UEFA to be operated by P1 or similar, the next step would be pan european leagues. We live in a capitalistic society, where money is king.Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
.TQuote:
You say you want an Irish club to compete at the top level, are you talking seriously about competing with Man U and Real Madrid ? Is that what it would take to get you to support a local team ? .
No, but I am just as happy supporting schoolboy football, as any other level.
.All the more reason to look at change to compete.Quote:
There is absolutley no chance in hell of an Irish club reaching that level with the way European football is currently structured. .
.The example I was using was:Quote:
Even if this Atlantic League as envisaged by you, were to happen it won't get an Irish team into the level your talking about. You seem to be suggesting that teams would qualify from that league into the Champions League, I'm not sure how you see that happening. I'm not saying I'd neccessarily be opposed to such a league, if the local league was to be maintained, but really it's fantasy stuff. .
EL winners / Runners Up qualify presently for qualifying rounds of Champions League / Uefa Cup etc. These are held in July / August.
The clubs who are knocked out in the 2nd and 3rd qualifying rounds could compete in a european league played midweek. 10 - 12 teams possibly 2 divisions. This would be at a higher level than the EL and would help improve teams.
If an El team did qualify for the group stages there place in this new league could be taken by the next best placed EL side from the previous season.
Where I am coming from is competing at a higher level would help clubs improve to where they may make the breakthrough.
They would still compete in the El, but obvious changes may be needed.
It is only a concept, but there again so was the Heineken cup in Rugby a few seasons ago, as was the Champions League when previously know as the European Cup.
.you dont have to buy it, but the fact is the league is not supported in its current format, and I still havent read one suggestion from you as how to improve standards or gates.Quote:
As for support and crowds, frankly I have a hard time believing anyone who says the reason they don't go and support a local team is because the standard is poor. I just don't buy it. .
.Yes I go to all the Ireland matches, so you might as well slag me off for being an event groupie, As for 30 years ago, Rover were full time for a few years and our European results were IMO better than now. Dundalk came very close to putting Celtic out of Europe, and Rovers beat Utd 2 seasons running, even if they were only friendly games.Quote:
I take it from your posts that you still go to Ireland matches ? WHy, when the results have been so poor lately. Or don't you demands similarly high standars from the Ireland team ? I also don't buy your argument that it was a better standard in the league 30 years ago, when just about all players would have been part time, to my knowledge..
The change is that other countries have continued to pass us out at club level.
.And thats where we will always differ, I believe we have too many clubs trying to compete for a limited fan base, and each club wants to preserve its own small fan base at the possible expense of a small number of potentially successful clubs.Quote:
I'm with Dodge really (and with 99% of football supporters everywhere I believe.) I want to support my team. I want then to do the best they possibly can, to compete at as high a level as they possibly can. If we want to improve the overall state of club football in Ireland then I would suggest that fostering that attitude among as many people in this country with an interest in football as we can is not a bad place to start. It's not glamorous, or anything to do with fantasy leagues, or gates of 80,000 at Croke Park to play Man U in a Champions League Semi Final, but at least it's grounded in reality.
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Originally Posted by lucanhoop87
Nothing to lose by trying it, at least it's postitive
I dunno, its the wrong motivation. People should support their local clubs out of a sense of identity and civic pride, not because of some advert campaign. We'd be as bad as people who dont support the LOI then, selling our souls if you will.
Should be through the clubs - I wouldn't restrict to just League of Ireland clubs myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenforever
I wouldn't restrict distribution to League of Ireland clubs, but yes, priority should be given to people who commit to Irish football all year round, not just a few games a year. A block booker for 10 years would only barely be coming up to a couple of seasons worth of games compared to an LoI season ticket holder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenforever
Why would anyone enter such a league? Midweek games against unglamorous teams and huge travelling bills. It's a recipe for bankruptcy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenforever
Hasn't worked though. I'd go with lucanhoop's idea- we need to hype everything making it out to be really good, rather than just say "here it is, come along". Don't think the facilities are good enough all round though to make people come back.Quote:
Originally Posted by A face