Ireland 5-0 Turkey

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Originally Posted by SilkCut

Tony you sound like an intelligent chap but comments like that about rugby are based on ignorance. Rugby in Ireland has a huge amount of history.

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Maybe I didn't put my point very well there. I'll also admit I'm not a rugby expert by any means, so maybe I'm wide of the mark, but I don't think so. I didn't mean to suggest rubgy has no history, of course it has. What I was trying to say is that it's structure and support trends are totally different to football, particularly in this country. I fully accept that the Provincial Game has always been popular, and this confirms my point. I don't think there has never been the same interest in a week in week out club league, has there ?. To make a valid comparision between rubgy and EL football you'd have to look at Wanderers, Greystones, Cork Con etc. Are their crowds any better than EL crowds ? I doubt it. (BTW a similar point could be made about GAA - it's not the club games people tend to support, but their county teams) It's interesting that for the Heineken cup it wasn't clubs who were put forward, but provincial teams (unlike in England, etc, where it's ordinary club sides who compete, unless I'm mistaken) I see the point being made, there are in essence 3 rugby teams on the Island who can command support in big numbers (albeit for a limited number of games per season) I just don't think you could apply the same method to football without the problems I outlined in my first post.

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<P>Tony, if its about attitude and perception I suggest you start with the EL players as nearly every single one of them would jump ship and play in England if they were given the chance. But's its not about perception its about economic reality. The players will desert the EL to get more money, and it is the absence of a sufficient and sustainable revenue base that will keep the EL in the bottom tier of European soccer. At what point in the slow and gradual process of evolution will St Pat's be able to build a stadium big enough to hold a decent crowd and good enough to attract people who are not the existing die-hards. At what point will they be able to pay their players enough money to stop them emigrating to The Championship or League 1, never mind the Premiership?&nbsp; If serious investors saw any prospect of a return in the EL they would not be putting their money in the likes of Sunderland.</P>
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<P>Of course the people who&nbsp;follow current EL clubs (and the clubs themselves) are against change, but you are the minority. It's the people who dont buy the product, and want something&nbsp;better that football in Ireland needs to appeal to.&nbsp;&nbsp;</P>

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Tony, if its about attitude and perception I suggest you start with the EL players as nearly every single one of them would jump ship and play in England if they were given the chance. But's its not about perception its about economic reality.

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Isn't that the case with most leagues in the world tho? Most players in France, Holland, Portugal etc would jump at a move to England too.

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At what point in the slow and gradual process of evolution will St Pat's be able to build a stadium big enough to hold a decent crowd and good enough to attract people who are not the existing die-hards.

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The money is not there to build the stadium to get Johnny Barstool interested. But if it was I don't think that of itself would be a big enough pull factor to bring in the casual supporters. Cork city have a wonderful stadium that can hold about 8,000 people. Their average attendance is 3,500...

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If serious investors saw any prospect of a return in the EL they would not be putting their money in the likes of Sunderland.

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This chap is the current chairman of Pats http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrett_Kelleher

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Of course the people who follow current EL clubs (and the clubs themselves) are against change, but you are the minority. It's the people who dont buy the product, and want something better that football in Ireland needs to appeal to.

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This really annoys me when people talk about starting up new franchises etc. There's over a hundred years of history for some of the clubs in the league. I don't think we should just chuck that in because people are starting to realize we need a stronger domestic league to improve internationally. There are 22 clubs in the national league system. There's nothing stopping people from going to watch one.

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Originally Posted by Saint_Charlie

This really annoys me when people talk about starting up new franchises etc. There's over a hundred years of history for some of the clubs in the league. I don't think we should just chuck that in because people are starting to realize we need a stronger domestic league to improve internationally. There are 22 clubs in the national league system. There's nothing stopping people from going to watch one.

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There's nothing stopping people going to one of 22 El clubs, but the fact is very few do, and Munster get more at a game than the 22 EL clubs attract per week in total.

The question you have to answer are you happy with a 3rd rate league or do you want a succcesful Irish club. No amount of dressing will change the facts that we do not have the population to sustain a succesful league and will not in our lifetime.

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Originally Posted by Greenforever

The question you have to answer are you happy with a 3rd rate league or do you want a succcesful Irish club.

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So that's the question is it ? Do we swap a whole league for one Club ? Well, in that case, the answer is, no thanks.

I was going to reply to Third Policemans post earlier, but Saint Charlie saved me the bother. What he said, basically.

BTW , I'm far from happy with a third rate league. What makes people think that people who support clubs here have their heads buried in the sand and don't want things to improve ? We're the ones who are keeping the damn thing going. We don't need lectures from anyone else on the problems.

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Originally Posted by TonyD

So that's the question is it ? Do we swap a whole league for one Club ? Well, in that case, the answer is, no thanks.

I was going to reply to Third Policemans post earlier, but Saint Charlie saved me the bother. What he said, basically.

BTW , I'm far from happy with a third rate league. What makes people think that people who support clubs here have their heads buried in the sand and don't want things to improve ? We're the ones who are keeping the damn thing going. We don't need lectures from anyone else on the problems.

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But you refuse to accept that there is no chance of ever competing at European level if you want to have 22 professional clubs that are all struggling to make ends meet and have tiny budgets compared to clubs playing in the champions league group stages.

If keeping the damn thing going is crowds of 100 to maybe 3,000 max on average maybe it's time to let the damn thing go and replace it with something that will survive.

You would be replacing the 22 clubs with probably 4, it won't happen because the people running EL clubs are only interested in their club and nothing else. That's understandable and that's why this convedrsation will not differ in 10, 20 or 50 yrs from now.

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Originally Posted by Greenforever

If keeping the damn thing going is crowds of 100 to maybe 3,000 max on average maybe it's time to let the damn thing go and replace it with something that will survive.

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Its still standing after 87 years. Its a change in the Irish psyche that would go someway towards healing a wounded league. If they gave it a chance instead of dismissing it out of hand, some might just find that they like it. But as you say, we'll probably be talking about the same thing in 20 years time, when Lichtenstein are thumping us 5-0...

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Originally Posted by Saint_Charlie

Its still standing after 87 years. Its a change in the Irish psyche that would go someway towards healing a wounded league. If they gave it a chance instead of dismissing it out of hand, some might just find that they like it. But as you say, we'll probably be talking about the same thing in 20 years time, when Lichtenstein are thumping us 5-0...

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Attendances have been dismal since I started going to LOI games in the 70s as a schoolkid, and they are not gettin better, it's still standing but it's not alive and kicking, its all about if's if the people would stop supporting Utd, if the barstoolers would get off their bar stools, if the ole brigade would give it a go, well with all due respect its like if my aunt had ***** she'd be my uncle. Even with good TV coverage and healthy viewing figures the FAI cup final will not fill the RDS.

i would love to see a thriving EL but Im a realist and the only way I will ever see a Irish club in a Champions league last 4 is if a Celtic league or an Atlantic league is formed.

I'm a realist too. I fully realize it's highly unlikely that we'll get a team in the champions league group stages but I wouldn't want to see my club disappear and be replaced with some bastadised version so a rake of bandwagoners can hop on board. I wouldn't think UEFA would sanction such a league anyway. It leaves the door open for Utd, Chelsea, Real, Barca etc to start their own super duper euro league and then we're back to square one with everyone watching that instead...

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Originally Posted by Saint_Charlie

I'm a realist too. I fully realize it's highly unlikely that we'll get a team in the champions league group stages but I wouldn't want to see my club disappear and be replaced with some bastadised version so a rake of bandwagoners can hop on board. I wouldn't think UEFA would sanction such a league anyway. It leaves the door open for Utd, Chelsea, Real, Barca etc to start their own super duper euro league and then we're back to square one with everyone watching that instead...

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In case you hadn't notices Chelsea, Barca, Milan, UTD et al have already formed their super duper league and we're not part of it. I am sure its quite possible that if there were to be a radical restructuring of Irish soccer existing clubs could carry on playing at their current level supported by the same diehard element that wants nothing to do with the "*******ised" alternative. It is a fact though that 99% of the potential football supporting public want to see a higher standard of football, in better quality stadia, playing in competitions that actually have real value. And there is no doubt that a better standard of domestic soccer even with fewer teams would be a massive benefit for our national side.

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Originally Posted by Saint_Charlie

I'm a realist too. I fully realize it's highly unlikely that we'll get a team in the champions league group stages but I wouldn't want to see my club disappear and be replaced with some bastadised version so a rake of bandwagoners can hop on board. I wouldn't think UEFA would sanction such a league anyway. It leaves the door open for Utd, Chelsea, Real, Barca etc to start their own super duper euro league and then we're back to square one with everyone watching that instead...

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And I and thousands of others would love to be able to support an IRISH club in the champions league that had the likes of Given, Keane, Dunne, Duff etc playing for it as the club could compete with the wages of the premiership, and for the record I do NOT support any foriegn team and that includes Celtic who are as most of us know Scottish!

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Originally Posted by Greenforever

And I and thousands of others would love to be able to support an IRISH club in the champions league that had the likes of Given, Keane, Dunne, Duff etc playing for it as the club could compete with the wages of the premiership, and for the record I do NOT support any foriegn team and that includes Celtic who are as most of us know Scottish!

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Well if they want it that bad they have the opportunity to support the future Given's, Duff's, Keane's. If people would actually go to games here we could hang onto decent young lads longer. The fact they won't is depressing. :( The space in England is getting narrower all the time for the young Irish lads because of the young Brazilians, Africans and other Europeans being brought in there too.

In 10 years time i'd be surprised if we had more than a handful of players playing in the top half of the premiership.

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Originally Posted by Saint_Charlie

Well if they want it that bad they have the opportunity to support the future Given's, Duff's, Keane's. If people would actually go to games here we could hang onto decent young lads longer. The fact they won't is depressing. :( The space in England is getting narrower all the time for the young Irish lads because of the young Brazilians, Africans and other Europeans being brought in there too.

In 10 years time i'd be surprised if we had more than a handful of players playing in the top half of the premiership.

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IF IF IF IF as my previous post, the fact is we are trying to run a 12 team league compared to a 20 team league in England where the population base is probably 12 times what it is here, pro rata we could have 2 maybe 3 clubs based on population, which is exactly the way it is in Rugby.

All the arguments in the world will not change the simple fact we do not have the population to support a major league.

Sorry but thats bollcks. We can do better than 3,000 being a big attendance, even for our small population. There are 1.5 million people in Dublin. A large majority who would claim to be football fans. We'll never have a "major" league but we could be doing a damn sight better than we are now WITH the current model.

was just about to post a reply to Greenforever but i got booted off.

anyway, have to agree with Saint Charlie here (surprise, surprise), we actually do have the population to support a professional league. If a similarly populated country like Croatia can sustain a healthy, well supported league then we can. Our clubs are all based in fairly large catchment areas and should be attracting larger attendances from the so called "fans" in this country. This is based on the assumption that an average gate of 10k people coupled with the usual income and also the rewards that come with domestic success and european qualification would support a professional team. I think this is a fair comment.

What really hurts us is that the soccer enthusiasts in this country have little or no interest in the domestic game. It really is a shame that we are no more than a nation of event junkies. We also get little or no help from Irish investors who see more prospects in investing in a league 1 or 2 team in England. I think that says it all about soccer in ireland.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

was just about to post a reply to Greenforever but i got booted off.

anyway, have to agree with Saint Charlie here (surprise, surprise), we actually do have the population to support a professional league. If a similarly populated country like Croatia can sustain a healthy, well supported league then we can. Our clubs are all based in fairly large catchment areas and should be attracting larger attendances from the so called "fans" in this country. This is based on the assumption that an average gate of 10k people coupled with the usual income and also the rewards that come with domestic success and european qualification would support a professional team. I think this is a fair comment.

What really hurts us is that the soccer enthusiasts in this country have little or no interest in the domestic game. It really is a shame that we are no more than a nation of event junkies. We also get little or no help from Irish investors who see more prospects in investing in a league 1 or 2 team in England. I think that says it all about soccer in ireland.

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An average crowd of 10,000 would generate approx E250k per match max x say 20 games a season = E5m.

With 25 full time professionals that would equate to E3,800 per player per week, without any allowance for managment, overheads, there is no way paying those wages we can compete with the Premiership.


The lowest club in the premiership gets £30m from TV alone.

People have invested millions in Irish soccer over the years, Ronan Seary, Tony ? of Sigma into Rovers, Drogs have current investors that have pumped millions into the club and there are many others.

FACT there is no chance of 12 EPL clubs getting an average audience of 10K per match in the near future.

Put in pespective that would be 60K attending EL out of a population of C4m that would be 1 in 66 people, that would be the equivalent of an average 90K gate for all English Premier League clubs, I don't know the current average but would hazard a guess at around 30-35K per game.

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Originally Posted by Greenforever

there is no way paying those wages we can compete with the Premiership.
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i dont think anyone is making the point that we should try to compete with the Premiership! Certainly not me, Thats David & Goliath stuff.

But with the proper structures and investment in place
10k per game would be enough to allow us to keep a good few of the players who get lost in the world of premiership trials and die in the youth teams never to be heard of again. Thats all im asking for.

By the way, you are ignoring the investment that this dream number of 10k fans would make in terms of bar sales and merchandise sales and the revenue from increased prize money, increased advertising, increased sponsorship and so on...

no one is asking for this to happen overnight but with proper structures and investment i believe it could happen within 20 years at most.

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Originally Posted by TonyD

Maybe I didn't put my point very well there. I'll also admit I'm not a rugby expert by any means, so maybe I'm wide of the mark, but I don't think so. I didn't mean to suggest rubgy has no history, of course it has. What I was trying to say is that it's structure and support trends are totally different to football, particularly in this country. I fully accept that the Provincial Game has always been popular, and this confirms my point. I don't think there has never been the same interest in a week in week out club league, has there ?. To make a valid comparision between rubgy and EL football you'd have to look at Wanderers, Greystones, Cork Con etc. Are their crowds any better than EL crowds ? I doubt it. (BTW a similar point could be made about GAA - it's not the club games people tend to support, but their county teams) It's interesting that for the Heineken cup it wasn't clubs who were put forward, but provincial teams (unlike in England, etc, where it's ordinary club sides who compete, unless I'm mistaken) I see the point being made, there are in essence 3 rugby teams on the Island who can command support in big numbers (albeit for a limited number of games per season) I just don't think you could apply the same method to football without the problems I outlined in my first post.

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I get your point Tony especially not wanting your team to lose its identity. However with rugby the crowds at Magners League games average 6000 in Munster and Heineken cup games are around 13,000 which will inevitably increase with the stadium re-developments. Few LOI games draw such crowds especially considering the lack of international players on show in the Magners League. I dont know the averages for AIB League games but having attended some Thomond games their crowds are fairly comparable to Longford, Athlone, Monaghan games. The reason for the provinces entering European competition was down to good foresight on behalf of the IRFU who signed all players up to the Union. Our player pool is much smaller than the English and so this is manageable. The Scots and Welsh have followed our lead incidently and also have provincial sides in the competition.
Again I understand your fear of losing your beloved club but wouldnt worry too much as the FAI dont have the brains or ambition to figure out a happy medium to suit all. An all Ireland league will only benefit the north IMO and the idea of a Celtic League any time soon is laughable as we have nothing to offer Scotland or Wales. You are absolutely correct to say that this would not be possible without serious problems. I think if any football fan genuinely trusted the muppets in the FAI we may be more open to the ideas they would put forward.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

i dont think anyone is making the point that we should try to compete with the Premiership! Certainly not me, Thats David & Goliath stuff.

But with the proper structures and investment in place
10k per game would be enough to allow us to keep a good few of the players who get lost in the world of premiership trials and die in the youth teams never to be heard of again. Thats all im asking for.

By the way, you are ignoring the investment that this dream number of 10k fans would make in terms of bar sales and merchandise sales and the revenue from increased prize money, increased advertising, increased sponsorship and so on...

no one is asking for this to happen overnight but with proper structures and investment i believe it could happen within 20 years at most.

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YOu've ignored the fact that to average 10k per game is like the premiership avaeraging 90k per game, it's cloud cuckoo land to think that this will happen with 10 or 12 premier league clubs.

Any ambitious kid is going to want to play for a club in a league that has a chance of playing in the champions league proper, you'd be knocking them for lack of ambition if they didn't.

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Originally Posted by Greenforever

YOu've ignored the fact that to average 10k per game is like the premiership avaeraging 90k per game, it's cloud cuckoo land to think that this will happen with 10 or 12 premier league clubs.

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thats rubbish - the league used to have high average gates right up until the 60s. Check out some of the old pics of the derby games especially. Why couldnt it happen again? Its certainly not cloud cuckoo land. And your point about the Premiership is rubbish. Have a look where all the bigger clubs are. Each one of them has large catchment areas and the more rural ones have all the surrounding areas to work with also.

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Originally Posted by Greenforever

Any ambitious kid is going to want to play for a club in a league that has a chance of playing in the champions league proper, you'd be knocking them for lack of ambition if they didn't.

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couldnt agree more but id like to see them do it with an Irish club before an English club. Surely you dont think that are youngsters are better off going to England at 15/16 as opposed to when they have learned their trade here and move at 19-25 for a decent fee and with a lot more maturity?