Whats up with shels fans

Ok you've obviously missed my point.
to answer your first question as to why I don't believe you'll be in swords in 5 years. couple of reasons. A: Fingal CoCo will have been through a change of councillors and the new council may not be as behind the Idea. B:If the club is not getting good crowds at Morton within say three years it would be a very brave man who would finance a brand new stadium on the assumption that there are a rake of fans out there who won't travel to santry but will come to the new stadium down the road in swords. C: this is Ireland it takes about 5 years to do a bit of roadworks ffs do you really think you'll get all the red tape out of the way and a shiny new stadium within 5 years ?

Now for the similarities between DCFC and Sporting Fingal

1. both were brand new Northside Dublin Club's, Playing originally out of the morton stadium in Santry
2. Both relied on the ill perceived(IMO)notion that they represented a community who were for whatever reasons deprived of an eL club with whom they could Identify.
3. Both spent heavily on Wages in an attempt to gain immediate success(note how wexford and Limerick are going about their squad building)
4.Both were essentially being bankrolled by an individual (who in Dublin City's case got to the stage were he couldn't justify the expenditure any longer)
5. Both were trying to squeeze into an already over crowded market (wrap it up however you want SF are another Dublin Club)
6.Neither had a discernable Fan Base nor a history of junior football to lay the foundations for a fanbase

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

Ok you've obviously missed my point.
to answer your first question as to why I don't believe you'll be in swords in 5 years. couple of reasons. A: Fingal CoCo will have been through a change of councillors and the new council may not be as behind the Idea. B:If the club is not getting good crowds at Morton within say three years it would be a very brave man who would finance a brand new stadium on the assumption that there are a rake of fans out there who won't travel to santry but will come to the new stadium down the road in swords. C: this is Ireland it takes about 5 years to do a bit of roadworks ffs do you really think you'll get all the red tape out of the way and a shiny new stadium within 5 years ?

Now for the similarities between DCFC and Sporting Fingal

1. both were brand new Northside Dublin Club's, Playing originally out of the morton stadium in Santry
2. Both relied on the ill perceived(IMO)notion that they represented a community who were for whatever reasons deprived of an eL club with whom they could Identify.
3. Both spent heavily on Wages in an attempt to gain immediate success(note how wexford and Limerick are going about their squad building)
4.Both were essentially being bankrolled by an individual (who in Dublin City's case got to the stage were he couldn't justify the expenditure any longer)
5. Both were trying to squeeze into an already over crowded market (wrap it up however you want SF are another Dublin Club)
6.Neither had a discernable Fan Base nor a history of junior football to lay the foundations for a fanbase

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I understood you fine.

I take all your points and some I would agree with.
Not all, but we could do this all day and still get nowhere

Lets just leave it there. Until the next argument;)

Lets wait and see where we are in 5 years.

So i can prove you wrong:D

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Originally Posted by Lamper.sffc

Lets wait and see where we are in 5 years.

So i can prove you wrong:D

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Heart and sole I really hope you do prove me wrong! I'll be keeping a keen eye on SF in the First Div as I suppose I've kind of adopted them as my second team
I just think I've seen all this before and it didn't end well

I think what Fingal are doing has a lot creditable aspects that would certainly be great for a regional club somewhere like Mullingar that don't have an established club
but I think the Biggest problem with Fingal is they are trying to tap into a perceived Community that I don't think exists in an already crowded marketplace

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

Now for the similarities between DCFC and Sporting Fingal

1. both were brand new Northside Dublin Club's, Playing originally out of the morton stadium in Santry
2. Both relied on the ill perceived(IMO)notion that they represented a community who were for whatever reasons deprived of an eL club with whom they could Identify.
3. Both spent heavily on Wages in an attempt to gain immediate success(note how wexford and Limerick are going about their squad building)
4.Both were essentially being bankrolled by an individual (who in Dublin City's case got to the stage were he couldn't justify the expenditure any longer)
5. Both were trying to squeeze into an already over crowded market (wrap it up however you want SF are another Dublin Club)
6.Neither had a discernable Fan Base nor a history of junior football to lay the foundations for a fanbase

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I have to be careful, apparantly disagreement with other posters is WUMMING or in some ways constitutes a personal attack. Sort of like being Jewish in 1933 was a crime against the state in Germany [historical fact] and not aimed at anyone in particular so not a personal attack. Krystallnacht if you wish.

1. Both on the Northside:) Hmmm. A bit superficial eh? And SFFC is taking its catchment from the north of Santry i.e. the county, while DCFC took its from south of Santry - thus the name Dublin City.... and the name Fingal. Oh well. Better not mention the 1993 local government act coz facts get deleted here

2. Representing a community deprived of LOI football, agree in the case of DCFC who were nestled in the same suburbs as Bohs, SRFC, Shelbourne. Blatantly wrong in the case of SFFC, no LOI soccer for 12kms south (Shelbourne) and 60kms north (Drogheda)

3. SFFC is outlaying a fair bit over a short period of time on wages, but you can't not try to compete, especially with only 8 weeks to prepare for entry. Fingal County Councils soccer plan has, within 5 years players of an extremely high standard coming through. DCFC had more of the traditional necrotic "links" to youth football, not supporting teams and not taking the academy approch and allowing the players stay with their neighbourhood clubs as they develop. {ahh I'm sick of explaining this - go look it up before yous decide to flame me}

4. Wrong again. SFFC bankrolled by a consortium of Keelings, Anglo Irish bank and Ger Gannon. Even without the latter they have a bigger level of investment that DCFC ever had. But don't let's stop there

5. Overcrowded market, an opinion I can see and hear often but not really the case. Look at it this way Dublin used to have twice as many teams. Cork used to have 4 teams!

6. The only point I can take seriously, however, there are 55 clubs now going in Fingal at all levels and the SFFC (if you care to find out about it) is to Unite them under the SFFC flag.

Fan to club ratios
Athlone POP = 15,000 - 1 team, 1:35000, surrounding areas included
Limerick POP = 91,000 - 1 team, 1:110000, using town plus
Cork POP = 190,000 - 2 teams, 1:95000, using Cork plus suburbs
Kildare POP = 186,000 - 1 team, 1:186000, pop of whole county
Dundalk POP = 29,000 - 1 team 1:35000, town area plus outlying area
Drogheda POP = 29,000 - 1 team 1:38000, town area plus outlying area
Finn Harps POP = 150,000 - 1 team 1:150000, being really generous here using County Donegals population
Dublin City and 3 counties POP = 1,187,000 - 6 teams 1:197833

No matter what you do by league of Ireland norms Dublin has an undersupply of teams. This holds for urban and rural norms too

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Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge

Don't know if you're aware but the property developer Gannon is pumping moeny into the club, don't know how much. Would it not be a similar situation to Pats- making a loss but being able to survive?

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Don't know if you're aware, but Gretna have effectively gone tits up following the same business plan.

Continually making a loss and being sustainable are pretty much mutually exclusive. Even Pat's and Drogs fans accept that. Even Chelsea accept that.

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

I don't think gate receipts will make up a small percentage of the clubs revenue quite the opposite infact. every club in the eL relies heavily on gate receipts to survive hence the ones like Dublin city and Kilkenny that don't get crowds don't survive.

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Wrong again, I'm afraid.

Bohs, for example, had expenditure last season of about E1.5m. Gate receipts were E250k. Other income was about E600k.

You say that small clubs fold because of small gate receipts. Incorrect IMO - they fold because of a resultant lack of people to run the off-field side of things.

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Originally Posted by Santry_Goonshow

[B]I have to be careful, apparantly disagreement with other posters is WUMMING or in some ways constitutes a personal attack.

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Calling someone a tosser while ignoring all the points they raise may just constitute a personal attack, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You say that small clubs fold because of small gate receipts. Incorrect IMO - they fold because of a resultant lack of people to run the off-field side of things.


Calling someone a tosser while ignoring all the points they raise may just constitute a personal attack, don't you think?

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1. The gate receipts thing is right. Even in the shoestring financing of the LOI most income is from sponsorship, promotions and player sales combined and the trend is going even more in that direction.

2. Your points weren't ignored, I just don't agree with them. You and six others flaming me and accusing me of ignorance isn't fun, especially as I know a good deal and just want to discuss. I cannot pick your replies out from the other eight and give individual answers. I have the same motivation as everyone else here - discuss and learn. Pineapple Stu saying you are toying with people is arrogance. If you don't like frank excahnges of views then just ask "the moderator" to cut off new memberships. No fun when people falsely accuse me of Wumming either, especially when he uses choice language as well, doesn't quite care about flaming and has a false definition of TROLLING. Oh well we can but try.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Don't know if you're aware, but Gretna have effectively gone tits up following the same plan

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Gretna = very small fish in a very large pond

The difference between SF and the rest of the clubs around us is not as vast

Id imagine the costs of running gretna in the top flight of the scottish league
is a little more than here.

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Originally Posted by Lamper.sffc

Gretna = very small fish in a very large pond

The difference between SF and the rest of the clubs around us is not as vast

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Doesn't matter how big or not a club and its league is; any club being bankrolled by a millionaire is not sustainable.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Doesn't matter how big or not a club and its league is; any club being bankrolled by a millionaire is not sustainable.

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It depends what you mean by 'sustainable', but how about Chelsea?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Doesn't matter how big or not a club and its league is

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It does matter. If the running costs for gretna in the SPL are far greater than SF in the EL. Then when the money from an investor dries up its a much further fall for gretna than it would be for SF

Blackburn didnt go out of business when Jack walker died. They did have a slump but they came back from it.

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Originally Posted by Lamper.sffc

It does matter. If the running costs for gretna in the SPL are far greater than SF in the EL. Then when the money from an investor dries up its a much further fall for gretna than it would be for SF

Blackburn didnt go out of business when Jack walker died. They did have a slump but they came back from it.

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That's because Walker set up a trust fund to help them after he died.

Gretna's running costs were much higher than Dublin City's; by your logic, Dublin City should still be around today.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

It depends what you mean by 'sustainable', but how about Chelsea?

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I noted them in my original post too.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Gretna's running costs were much higher than Dublin City's; by your logic, Dublin City should still be around today.

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Em no. Man you have a great way of twisting words or the meaning in what someone is trying to say. You originally made the comparison with gretna. I was just saying that the comparison between gretna and SF is not a fair one.
I didnt say that SF wouldnt go out of business if we lost our investor. I just made the point that gretna had further to fall after losing their investor and because of this it is not accurate to compare gretna with SF and that it was more likely that gretna would suffer more than SF.
And then you state by my logic that dublin city would still be around. Im talking about unfair comparisons, not whether dublin city should still be around because gretna have more to lose.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Doesn't matter how big or not a club and its league is; any club being bankrolled by a millionaire is not sustainable.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That's because Walker set up a trust fund to help them after he died.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Gretna's running costs were much higher than Dublin City's; by your logic, Dublin City should still be around today.

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Em no. Man you have a great way of twisting words or the meaning in what someone is trying to say. You originally made the comparison with gretna. I was just saying that the comparison between gretna and SF is not a fair one.
I didnt say that SF wouldnt go out of business if we lost our investor so in turn by my logic this means i didnt think dublin city should still be around today. I just made the point that gretna had further to fall after losing their investor which in turn makes them more vulnerable than SF and because of this it is not accurate to compare gretna with SF.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Doesn't matter how big or not a club and its league is; any club being bankrolled by a millionaire is not sustainable.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That's because Walker set up a trust fund to help them after he died.

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So they where sustainable

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Originally Posted by Lamper.sffc

You originally made the comparison with gretna. I was just saying that the comparison between gretna and SF is not a fair one.

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Course it's fair. How far they have to fall (as per your comment) is irrelevant when it comes to determining sustainability.

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So they where sustainable

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Has Gannon set up a trust fund to keep you in the money after he leaves?

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Originally Posted by Santry_Goonshow

[B]
6. The only point I can take seriously, however, there are 55 clubs now going in Fingal at all levels and the SFFC (if you care to find out about it) is to Unite them under the SFFC flag.

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I believe that is exactly where your plan will founder and is naive to say the least

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Course it's fair. How far they have to fall (as per your comment) is irrelevant when it comes to determining sustainability.

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Man are you for real:rolleyes:. If Gretna's expenses for a year where 5 Million
( i dont know what they are its just an example)
And SF where 1 million and both lost their investor. Who would be more likely to fold.
Thats just an example dont start questioning me on the figures.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Has Gannon set up a trust fund to keep you in the money after he leaves?

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Again my friend you dodge the point I was making. You said any "ANY club being bankrolled by a millionaire is not sustainable." I pointed one out to you in blackburn ( again i know they had a slump but survived it). And you turn it as if im talking about blackburn in the same context as SF. I wasnt.

Neither of us know what Gannon is going to do after 5 years. He may leave and we may fold. Or he may carry on and we might survive. I dont know but neither do you.

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Originally Posted by passerrby

I believe that is exactly where your plan will founder and is naive to say the least

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Why do you believe this. (just interested)

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Originally Posted by Lamper.sffc

Man are you for real:rolleyes:. If Gretna's expenses for a year where 5 Million...
And SF where 1 million and both lost their investor. Who would be more likely to fold?

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If Gretna's expenses are 5 million, I guess their investor will be investing 5 million.

If Fingal's expenses are 1 million, I guess their investor will be investing 1 million.

If their investors pull out, they're both left with zero.

I think, but I'm not sure, that this is Pineapple Stu's point. If the investment is relative to the amount of money needed to run the club, which it usually is, then each club is equally affected by the loss of that investment.

beacuse lamps its impossible to get two clubs to agree to anything never mind asking 55 clubs to support there plan for world domination, its the nature of football as someone who has been on league committees all my life, and not only will they not support you they will go out of there way to undermine everything you do

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Originally Posted by osarusan

If Gretna's expenses are 5 million, I guess their investor will be investing 5 million.

If Fingal's expenses are 1 million, I guess their investor will be investing 1 million.

If their investors pull out, they're both left with zero.

I think, but I'm not sure, that this is Pineapple Stu's point. If the investment is relative to the amount of money needed to run the club, which it usually is, then each club is equally affected by the loss of that investment.

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Fair point if thats the case, but for gretna to still keep running they have to get 5 million from somewhere for sf to keep running they just need 1 million. ( again i know the figures are probably way out, but the point still stands)
What i have been trying to point out is that it is More likely that SF would have a better chance to survive than getna after the loss of their investor. Beacause of the vast difference in running a club in the SPL compared to EL. So his comparison between the two is not a sound one. Its not like for like.