Lawrie Sanchez

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

Yes I do. Not of Brazilian quality. But good enough to qualify and get to the finals of a Euro championship or World Cup. I heard all this negative stuff before Charlton took over. No World class players other than Brady. Turned out to be nonsense once a manager who knew what he was doing took over.

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First emboldened line - A team like Poland have qualified without any players I'd consider to be "top of the range" internationals. Qualification alone doesn't mean the players must be top class.

second emboldened line - A managers job is to get the best out of his players - even if they are not top of the range. A good manager getting the best out of the above players doesn't necessarily mean they are top of the line, it could just as easily mean the manager is top of the range.

I'd say the Irish team is a moderately talented team, which is quite good on the rare and inconsistent occasions when the team plays as a team.

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Originally Posted by micls

Waide(rightly imo) made the claim that the 7 players named were ' average premiership players, not top of the range internationals'.

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Given is above premiership average. Finnan too. Dunne as well, Jamie Carragher level imo. And Keane would be above average too. Spurs have one of the best strike forces in the premiership. Duff couldn't claim to be above average these days though. Anyway, 4 top players, a few very good players and a lot of potential.

Would Fulham be an appealing position to any of the managers we've been linked with? Hodgson, Souness, Venables, etc?

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Given is above premiership average.

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Given wasn't one of the players mentioned. I fully agree he is top class, world class even, but there were 7 other players mentioned.

From those 7, I'd say only Keane and Finnan are definitely above premiership average, with a few others debatable. Their(the 7) international form, which is the point here, is another question.

Dunne again this season is doing well in the bonus points in the fantasy football. He got more than any defender last season and this season only Laursen is ahead of him.

He's been rated one of the best 3 players on the pitch (by an ex-pro) against:
Man Utd, Arsenal, Fulham, Middlesbrough, Portsmouth, Reading, Tottenham and Blackburn.

That's almost half of City's games. He consisently dominates games and rarely does much wrong these days. Surely better than most premiership centre halves?

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Given is above premiership average.

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I agree. But he wasnt mentioned.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Finnan too. Dunne as well, Jamie Carragher level imo.

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Those are the 2 who I said I would argue were above average. Still doesnt equate to top class internationally though.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

And Keane would be above average too.

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Potentially, yes. For Ireland, not a lot of the time imo.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Anyway, 4 top players, a few very good players and a lot of potential.

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I'd say 2 top players, 2 above average a couple very good and a lot of potential.

A far cry from 7topclass players though.

On the subject of World Class Players may I remind people of a section of a chant sung at Euro 88 '' Dance dance wherever you may be, We lost Mark Lawrenson and Liam Brady, but we don't care and we don't give a f*c* cause we beat the Brits in the Nations Cup''.

Can you imagine how well we would have done at Euro 88 with those two?
No World Class players before Charlton took over? What about Ooh Aah Paul McGrath?
Arguably Ireland's best ever player...( and yes Keane fans he's better than Roy he was class in 3 different positions)

Currently we have Shay Given and em em em em em nobody really!

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

No World Class players before Charlton took over? What about Ooh Aah Paul McGrath?

Currently we have Shay Given and em em em em em nobody really!

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I agree, surprised at the comment that we had none before Jack. O'Leary, Brady, Lawrenson, McGrath, Moran and Whelan were world class.

And the likes of Stapleton, Beglin, Sheedy and Hughton were no slouches either.

All these players were sought after by top teams, they picked up European trophys in most cases. Very unlike today (save Finnan).

I think Waide in fairness is wearing some slightly orange tinted glasses. Finnan, Keane or a fit Duff are in no way average Premiership players. They are all some of the best players in their respective positions in the Premiership. The term average Premiership player could correctly be applied to the likes of David Healy, Stephen Hunt and John O' Shea. I'd even make the claim that Doyle is better than the average Premiership player and would consider him a good Premiership player but we can agree to disagree on this one as it's a matter of opinion. Finnan, Keane or Duff are not average players by any stretch however.

whats any of this got to do with sanchez?

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Originally Posted by eekers

whats any of this got to do with sanchez?

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Because he's proven himself working with "limited resources". I think we're a bit better than that, especially with the type of midfield players coming through.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

I think Waide in fairness is wearing some slightly orange tinted glasses. Finnan, Keane or a fit Duff are in no way average Premiership players. They are all some of the best players in their respective positions in the Premiership. The term average Premiership player could correctly be applied to the likes of David Healy, Stephen Hunt and John O' Shea. I'd even make the claim that Doyle is better than the average Premiership player and would consider him a good Premiership player but we can agree to disagree on this one as it's a matter of opinion. Finnan, Keane or Duff are not average players by any stretch however.

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YoungIrish,How can you class Duff as a top prem player when he has hardly kicked a ball in 2 or 3 seasons,granted keane may be slightly above average when playing for spurs but is held back at international level by the quality of players around him.Doyle has the potential to be a good quality striker but on the other hand he has to prove it for more than one season.You mentioned David Healy and his current form in the prem is not good,but when he plays for N I he is world class how do you logically explain that.Just to wind up i don't take pleasure in giving my views on players because they play for the republic,it's my honest opinion nothing to do with orange or green glasses.

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Originally Posted by waide

YoungIrish,How can you class Duff as a top prem player when he has hardly kicked a ball in 2 or 3 seasons,granted keane may be slightly above average when playing for spurs but is held back at international level by the quality of players around him.Doyle has the potential to be a good quality striker but on the other hand he has to prove it for more than one season.You mentioned David Healy and his current form in the prem is not good,but when he plays for N I he is world class how do you logically explain that.Just to wind up i don't take pleasure in giving my views on players because they play for the republic,it's my honest opinion nothing to do with orange or green glasses.

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Could you share your formula for determing what is average? Keane is always high on the scoring charts, has scored more goals that any English player this season in the Premiership and Spurs haven't even been playing well. If Duff returns from injury and returns to his former level then clearly he is above average. Quality goes to the top and if you are regualrly playing for a team that finishes in the top half of the table you are de facto above average.

Healy basically isn't premiership quality but his international record is excellent and he has scored some fantastic goals. I've seen NI play a few times in the past few years and they play neat football, they don't look like world beaters and all look like very modest players but they work hard and keep it simple. I saw them beat Spain and frankly they looked like a Championship side but they somehow made Spain look like a League One side.

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Originally Posted by Qwerty

Could you share your formula for determing what is average? Keane is always high on the scoring charts, has scored more goals that any English player this season in the Premiership and Spurs haven't even been playing well. If Duff returns from injury and returns to his former level then clearly he is above average. Quality goes to the top and if you are regualrly playing for a team that finishes in the top half of the table you are de facto above average.

Healy basically isn't premiership quality but his international record is excellent and he has scored some fantastic goals. I've seen NI play a few times in the past few years and they play neat football, they don't look like world beaters and all look like very modest players but they work hard and keep it simple. I saw them beat Spain and frankly they looked like a Championship side but they somehow made Spain look like a League One side.

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Qwerty, Northern Ireland's secret for success at windsor is hard graft and also the atmosphere,althouch 15000 only can be seated the atmosphere generated is electric,the team are made up with mostly average premiership with one exeption,i would rate mcCartney as one of the better left backs in the premiership.i will be the first to admit that we are punching above our weight simply because of our home form.i disagree with Healy not being premier standard,if he is given a good run in any team the goals will come.I agree with you regarding Duff the problem has been his lack of fitness this past 2 seasons.

Given is our only truly world class player. Richard Dunne and Steve Finnan would be easilly good enough to make the England team. Finnan is in my opinion the best right back in the premier league and Dunne is one of the best centre halves in the British game. Duff was world class. To be honest right now, I struggle to get enthusiastic about his return because he will probably be injured within 3 weeks.

Robbie Keane would make the England squad (bench player). He is a very good premiership player but Waide rightly says that he rarely cuts it at international level.

Doyle is a very good striker who could end up playing for one of the top sides in England if he keeps improving. He's a good all round striker with the will and the hunger to get better.

Hunt is a player who I really like. As a Liverpool fan, I think he'd be a great signing.

s.Ireland can I believe reach the very top....whether that is with Ireland remains to be seen.

O'Shea has really missed the boat. He's content at being United's 12th man rather than fulfilling the world class potential that he has.

Apart from that, we have a motley crew of decent premiership players/very good championship players and our usual quota of highly promising young players.

Definitely good enough to have a very bright future with the right manager.

Regarding Northern Ireland, I really believe they have a very decent chace of qualifying for the nect world cup.

I am amazed at people even mentioning Damien Duff in the present circumstances.
He has suffered a potentially career ending injury. There is no guarantee he will ever play for Ireland again . He is the most talented treatment table visitor in the Irish squad.
He was missing for a lot of crucial games for Ireland this year. Perhaps his presence might have made a difference in getting some improved results. Everyone seems to think his recovery is 100% guaranteed. It's not and at this stage if he manages to play 5-6 games in a row for Newcastle I will reconsider.... IF he manages it.

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Originally Posted by Bungle

Given is our only truly world class player. Richard Dunne and Steve Finnan would be easilly good enough to make the England team. Finnan is in my opinion the best right back in the premier league and Dunne is one of the best centre halves in the British game. Duff was world class. To be honest right now, I struggle to get enthusiastic about his return because he will probably be injured within 3 weeks.

Robbie Keane would make the England squad (bench player). He is a very good premiership player but Waide rightly says that he rarely cuts it at international level.

Doyle is a very good striker who could end up playing for one of the top sides in England if he keeps improving. He's a good all round striker with the will and the hunger to get better.

Hunt is a player who I really like. As a Liverpool fan, I think he'd be a great signing.

s.Ireland can I believe reach the very top....whether that is with Ireland remains to be seen.

O'Shea has really missed the boat. He's content at being United's 12th man rather than fulfilling the world class potential that he has.

Apart from that, we have a motley crew of decent premiership players/very good championship players and our usual quota of highly promising young players.

Definitely good enough to have a very bright future with the right manager.

Regarding Northern Ireland, I really believe they have a very decent chace of qualifying for the nect world cup.

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Surely you cannot be serious? World Class potential? John has the attention span of a gnat. And I prefer to see him in midfield playing for Ireland where he can do less damage to us!

No, I'm quite serious about O'Shea. In his first two seasons at United, he showed world class potential. He was a truly outstanding prospect. The downward spiral seemed to happen in his third season.

I remember Hansen, Lippi and Maldini among others all saying that he would go on to become a great.

Besides, despite his horrific performances for Ireland, I think he plays quite well for United.

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Originally Posted by Bungle

No, I'm quite serious about O'Shea. In his first two seasons at United, he showed world class potential. He was a truly outstanding prospect. The downward spiral seemed to happen in his third season.

I remember Hansen, Lippi and Maldini among others all saying that he would go on to become a great.

Besides, despite his horrific performances for Ireland, I think he plays quite well for United.

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I dont rate O Se. I thought he would develop in to a class centre half. He played there against switzerland away and embarassed himself. Remember he played there against slovakia and turned his arse to their last minute equaliser. Could you imagine Paul McGrath doing that.

Micls your pessimism is astounding. And there was i thinking cork people were cocky.

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Originally Posted by kingdomkerry

Micls your pessimism is astounding. And there was i thinking cork people were cocky.

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Cocky about ourselves. We can't be responsible for the rest of the dross the country produces.