Oman for Stoke City?

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Seen the Reading team recently.....? :rolleyes:

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This is what gets me about this argument everytime, a handfull of players make it and all of a sudden the whole league is supposed to be better.

DJ Campbell went from Ryman premier (7th tier of English football) to the Premier League with Birmingham (via Brentford) in less than 6 months but I don't often hear the Ryman premier being lorded as the equivalent to the Championship.

I don't see much Eircom league football anymore (as I live in England) but judging a whole league's standard based on a few players who have made the grade from it without looking at the number who fail to make the grade and retun to it does not strike me as reasonable.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Seen the Reading team recently.....? :rolleyes:

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Kevin Doyle and Shane Long didnt go straight from our league to the Premiership as they were in that team whilst it was in the Championship

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Originally Posted by endabob1

This is what gets me about this argument everytime, a handfull of players make it and all of a sudden the whole league is supposed to be better.

DJ Campbell went from Ryman premier (7th tier of English football) to the Premier League with Birmingham (via Brentford) in less than 6 months but I don't often hear the Ryman premier being lorded as the equivalent to the Championship.

I don't see much Eircom league football anymore (as I live in England) but judging a whole league's standard based on a few players who have made the grade from it without looking at the number who fail to make the grade and retun to it does not strike me as reasonable.

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Read my following post. I said our top teams would exist in that league - I didn't say our entire league was of tghe same standard, or that our top teams would be at the top of the Championship. There is a huge difference.

If we ignore player transfers, then all we're left with as evidence is friendlies (rare against Championship sides, and often meaningless) or just mere speculation/opinion. In which case your opinion can be proven no less or more valid than anyone elses.

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Originally Posted by gustavo

Kevin Doyle and Shane Long didnt go straight from our league to the Premiership as they were in that team whilst it was in the Championship

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Ignoring the fact that Reading were clearly above Championship standard that year - hence they got promoted and finished quite highly in the Prem the following year - then that at least made them upper-Championship standard when they left our League.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Read my following post. I said our top teams would exist in that league - I didn't say our entire league was of tghe same standard, or that our top teams would be at the top of the Championship. There is a huge difference.

If we ignore player transfers, then all we're left with as evidence is friendlies (rare against Championship sides, and often meaningless) or just mere speculation/opinion. In which case your opinion can be proven no less or more valid than anyone elses.

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I still think my point stands, look at the number of players who have moved to England and failed and then returned to play in the EL. There a lot more players who fail than succeeed so using the success of a handfull to declare the standard pf the league is not reasonable. I watch a bit of League 1 (and lower)football here and there are some decent sides, with decent players who could probably operate at a higher level but I've seen a lot of them move up and fail, occasionally one makes it but many many more fail, the ones who make it don't mean the standard of the league they left behind is somehow improved

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Particularly in the light of examples of decent, but not spactacular, EL players going straight into premeirship first teams and making a big impact.

Are you suggesting that EL teams couldn't survive somewhere in the 22 team Championship - alongside the likes of Blackpool, Norwich, Colchester and Burnley....?

And on what basis are you making your judgement ?

And as Dodge has said - moves to English or Scottish teams are often more about money and exposure than anythign to do with standards. Or love, in Darren Kelly's case. Unless you're now going to claim the Conference Premier is of a higher standrad than the EL, just because someone made that move.....

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There is only one example of a player making a big impact and that is Kevin Doyle and by the time he left the eircom league he was spectaculuar. He was Cork Citys top scorer for a good few games after leaving that season. Shane Long has done well but he is 4th choice when everyone is fit.

Funnily enough this is Darren Kelly second spell in the conference, he didnt do to well last time.

I dont mean to be a negative **** but i think you are way overrating the league. Qpr et al are in my opinion a good bit better than anything the league has to offer. I am not convinced a current eircom league 11 would survive in the championship.

Surely to follow the logic here we should compare how many players have made the jump from the Championship to the Premiership to those making a similar transition from our league?

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Originally Posted by pateen

George O Callaghan (ish, was released by Ipswich but don’t know why)

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Definetely not a success at Ipswich Town whatever about at Port Vale before his return to Cork City. Ipswich Town waited a long time to get George in.

Hasn't been released though, he's out on loan at Brighton and Hove Albion. Not sure though how he's getting on. Never saw him play for Ipswich Town.

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Originally Posted by Harpsbear

Definetely not a success at Ipswich Town whatever about at Port Vale before his return to Cork City. Ipswich Town waited a long time to get George in.

Hasn't been released though, he's out on loan at Brighton and Hove Albion. Not sure though how he's getting on. Never saw him play for Ipswich Town.

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George O'Callaghan was mainly bench player with the occasional start at Ipswich. I think there was some issue about playing while hiding an injury but he was supposed to have been loaned as not 1st eleven player. He is 1st eleven player at Brighton.

Alana Bennet has been unlucky at Southampton as he got back in lately due to injuries, got MOTM marking Fowler & then out of the match squad.. Don't know if good enough for the Premier League but would be good Championship player.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Surely to follow the logic here we should compare how many players have made the jump from the Championship to the Premiership to those making a similar transition from our league?

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Err....no.

The argument as a read it is whether the top EL sides, at any given time, would survive (ie be at least as good as the bottom few sides) in the Championship.

I don't think anyone is crazy enough to argue that the EL Premier Division is of a similar standard to the Championship on the whole.

Personally I feel any team on this island would be at best a league 1 side and I don't think a top League 1 side.

Linfield although playing in an inferior league than the LOI would comfortably compete for the LOI championship(proven in competitive matches against the top LOI Teams) but to say we would live in championship is ludicrus.(sp?)

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Personally I feel any team on this island would be at best a league 1 side and I don't think a top League 1 side.

Linfield although playing in an inferior league than the LOI would comfortably compete for the LOI championship(proven in competitive matches against the top LOI Teams) but to say we would live in championship is ludicrus.(sp?)

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Yawn.

Just to add another player to the mix.Stephen Ward was not recognised as a top notch player here but is now a Wolves regular.Wes Hoolahan is another.

I would agree that Drogs,Pats,Cork and possibly Bohs (might struggle) could mix it with the teams in the bottom half of the Championship.

A year or so I might have agreed but I think the standard here has dropped slightly and I dont think that many would be able to survive in that particualr league , Tbh its annoying seeing this old chestnut being dragged up again , Why should we always look to Britain to compare our own league or look for some kind of validation ?

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Originally Posted by gustavo

A year or so I might have agreed but I think the standard here has dropped slightly and I dont think that many would be able to survive in that particualr league , Tbh its annoying seeing this old chestnut being dragged up again , Why should we always look to Britain to compare our own league or look for some kind of validation ?

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Fair point but I think the reason I would compare is because like it or not the EPL is probably the top league in Europe at the moment.Three teams in last 4 of CL last year does indicate this is true.

This is largely due to the money swilling around and in that sense any comparision is unfair.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I'm not saying EL teams would win the Championship; I'm not even saying they'd all do well. But I can't believe that our top teams couldn't at least exist in that league somewhere above 22nd place - alongside the Burnleys, Colchesters, Norwich's etc.

We're certainly better than Division 1 standard - which, if you're saying we're not up to the Championship, is the level you're putting us at.

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I hate this. We've had what a lot of people are referring to as one of the weakest leagues in recent history this season. Our new champions were held by a Sammarinese team in Europe - and a side making their European debut who qualified by losing the Cup Final at that - and yet you reckon they'd finish above Norwich, Colchester, Burnley in a 46-game season?

You don't bother making any mention of the kind of players these teams have. Colchester, to pick one, have in Aidan Davison, Teddy Sheringham and Kevin Lisbie players far more experienced and able than any in Ireland. But you instead put their name out as to be scoffed at without any sort of attempt to analyse their squad - "Colchester - pffft!"

Norwich have the likes of David Marshall, Darren Huckerby, John Hartson, Jamie Cureton, Dion Dublin, Gary Doherty, John Otsemobor - do you honestly think any eL team could come close to them over a season? You've obviously just looked at a league table and assumed them to be poor based on their position with no other research at all.

The eL does, I think, fight above its weight when you compare it to the level in England of comparative attendances (the Conference, with the top teams being lower Division Three), but to suggest that our top teams would hold their own in a league where only three teams average under 10000 (over three times the best we can offer) and where TV Revenue is far in excess of what we get is nonsense, I'm afraid. Over 46 games, the one-off Cup factor (which we do so well here) would wear off, injuries and suspensions would hit, morale would drop and any side in the top half of the eL would be doing very well to get 20 points over the season.

Obviously some players are good enough to make the jump, and best of luck to them, but to argue that an entire eL club - 20 players in this day and age - would hold their own in a league is nonsense.

Maybe someday people will actually see the eL for what it is - a poor league in the greater scheme of things, but still a highly entertaining and, more importantly, enjoyable competition. Start having delusions of grandeur way above our station like your above post and we're never going to achieve anything of any practical value.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I hate this. We've had what a lot of people are referring to as one of the weakest leagues in recent history this season. Our new champions were held by a Sammarinese team in Europe - and a side making their European debut who qualified by losing the Cup Final at that - and yet you reckon they'd finish above Norwich, Colchester, Burnley in a 46-game season?

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Please show me where I said we'd finish above all those teams.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Norwich have the likes of David Marshall, Darren Huckerby, John Hartson, Jamie Cureton, Dion Dublin, Gary Doherty, John Otsemobor - do you honestly think any eL team could come close to them over a season? You've obviously just looked at a league table and assumed them to be poor based on their position with no other research at all.

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Clearly nonesense - as I've stated previously in this thread that I've seen Norwich play in the flesh this season. I've actually seen them twice so far this season (a friend is a Norwich fan) and once last season, plus onmce or twice on Sky. They were extremely average every time I've watched them this season. So - far from it being me who is making lazy assumptions about a team's capabiltiies purely on the basis of their league table position - it's clearly yourself who is the one making lazy assumptions. So much for just looking at a league table.... :rolleyes:

As for the rest of your post, we'll just have to agree to differ.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Personally I feel any team on this island would be at best a league 1 side and I don't think a top League 1 side.

Linfield although playing in an inferior league than the LOI would comfortably compete for the LOI championship(proven in competitive matches against the top LOI Teams) but to say we would live in championship is ludicrus.(sp?)

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Irish league football at its best:
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=KYkA6l6MR2c

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Please show me where I said we'd finish above all those teams.

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Mea culpa - you said our clubs'd finish alongside those teams. My argument still holds.

You also said our clubs'd hold our heads above water and finish above three teams. I'll go through the entire Division One and show that that's not true if you want.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

As for the rest of your post, we'll just have to agree to differ.

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Fair enough - you can believe what you want obviously. But people believed the earth was flat for centuries despite being an equally implausible argument with equally strong circumstantial evidence against.

I was talking to our club CPO last night, who was talking to Danny Murphy recently. Murphy is the lad who left Cork to join Motherwell last season. Was one of the highest regarded defenders in the eL, but has now been shipped out to Dunfermline in Division One. Murphy was saying that every game in the SPL - even against Gretna or St Mirren - is far tougher than in the eL. Players are simply that bit bigger, that bit stronger, that bit faster than here, and it makes a massive difference.

That mightn't come across as obviously when you watch Norwich once or twice, but it is the reason why no eL club would survive in Division One. I recall Derry going to Paris last year (after an admittedly excellent home result) and getting shoved off it entirely - PSG comfortably won 2-0, could have been more, and that's what'd happen mostentimes if eL sides were in Division One. They'd get a few good results (like the 0-0), but more often it'd be comfortable defeats.

As an aside, where are all the players who made the jump over last season?

Jason Byrne - eL top scorer the past four (?) seasons - scored on his debut for Cardiff, gradually dropped out of view, nowhere near the team now.
Pat Kavanagh - never made it near the Birmingham first team; back with Bray
Danny Murphy - Out of the SPL
Bobby Ryan - ditto
Trevor Molloy - ditto (is he with Airdrie or someone now?)
Paul Keegan - ditto
George O'Callaghan - left Ipswich; is he getting his game for Brighton now? Are they back in Division Two now?

I'm sure there's more. There's some players who do well (Doyle and Long obviously), but more who don't. Again, on the basis that a squad is about 20 players, no eL team would have a hope of surviving in Division One.

Also, look at the players we sign. Joe Gamble came from Barnet when they were in the Conference and became an eL star. Danny Murphy came from non-league and did the same. John O'Flynn came from Peterboro reserves and did the same. There's many more of those.

There's a reason our top players don't make it in the SPL/Premiership/Division One more often than not. There's a reason our top imports come from English non league. We're going to have to face up to the fact that our league is not as good as the English Division One, or the SPL.

I would say top eL teams would be mid table in Division Three. Lower eL teams would be Conference standard.

Getting back on topic.

Oman off to PlunderIreland for a trial now.